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Post by Pithirendar on Nov 11, 2013 21:14:44 GMT -5
I'd like to make a suggestion/discuss penalties for characters who have been executed by the crown.
In the past (both IC and OOC) some frustration has been expressed that the penalties are not harsh enough.
I would like to suggest that when a character is executed by the crown that they lose a level. Starting from the beginning of the previous level.
I don't believe in permadeath being enforced but I think that there could be benefit in instituting a tangible penalty that results in some loss to encourage folks to carefully weigh the risk vs benefit of their actions.
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Post by Munroe on Nov 11, 2013 21:51:53 GMT -5
The current penalty for execution is 100xp/level with chance of level loss.
Prior to that the execution penalty was 250xp/level with chance of level loss.
Prior to that the execution penalty was 1000xp/level with a gurantee of level loss.
1000xp/level reduces a character not to the beginning of their previous level, but as far into their previous level as they were into their current level.
If the penalty is to be changed (and it comes up in the DM discussions occasionally), it's far more likely to be based on a set XP value than a strict "beginning of previous level" because, for example, that means a character that just hit level 21 and a character 1000 XP from level 22 would both be reduced to the beginning of level 20, which is a major disparity in the loss of XP between those two characters. While 1000xp/level would reduce the newly minted 21 character to the beginning of 20 and the nearly-22 character turns into a nearly-21 character.
Note that when the XP penalty is changed, as has been demonstrated in the past, punishments for outstanding crimes fall under the penalty that was in-place at the time of the crime, not the time of the execution, though the XP value at the time of the execution is the one that is modified.
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Post by blinddevil on Nov 11, 2013 22:05:55 GMT -5
I'd like to make a suggestion/discuss penalties for characters who have been executed by the crown. In the past (both IC and OOC) some frustration has been expressed that the penalties are not harsh enough. I would like to suggest that when a character is executed by the crown that they lose a level. Starting from the beginning of the previous level. I don't believe in permadeath being enforced but I think that there could be benefit in instituting a tangible penalty that results in some loss to encourage folks to carefully weigh the risk vs benefit of their actions. I personally don't think the xp penalties are the issue. In my opinion, if a character is executed, the player should not be able to play that character for a period of time - say 30 days. The idea that the character is right back in the thick of things a day later is just crazy to me. Also, any executed character, when they come back, should be banned from all cities. Again, we executed you, you were raised, now its fine that you are walking around town? Totally blows my immersion. |
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Nov 11, 2013 22:15:56 GMT -5
I have to agree with pithrendar that a more tangible penalty be given to people who are executed by the Crown. Right now, it's 100xp per level with a chance for level loss meaning, my paladin could be executed up to around 10 times and still not lose a level. It would be no different than a respawn, which really isn't so bad. There needs to be a firmer punishment for doing hood rat things. I'm an advocate of much harsher penalties. I'd say an immediate 2 level drain with a substantial gold loss, including the selling of equipment to make up the sum if necessary. And just to make sure you don't go and get yourself executed so that you could take remake your character, the same exact class levels, feats, and skills have to be retaken upon leveling up.
If characters in game aren't allowed to "police" in any way without getting 8 hours of jail time, it's only fair that stiffer punishments are thrown out to people that enter town and force a defense.
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Post by bentusi16 on Nov 11, 2013 22:19:12 GMT -5
Yeah, it's not the XP, it's the fact that if your executed by the crowns, half an IRL hour later you've not only been raised but are striding around the area you just got executed in.
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Post by Grozer on Nov 11, 2013 22:47:31 GMT -5
Heh so this debate resurrects itself yet again.... well I definitely can understand wanting a stronger penalty but I dont think increasing the XP deduction is really what will make things different. Back when Manshin and Ranan had epic battles we had this gentlemen's agreement if either lost in PvP. We constantly were scheming against one another and of course against the other 'side' so if either of us got caught and died in PvP where no allies are around to raise us then we not only took the loss but also took time out of the game, at least 7 days sometimes longer. This granted the other player the advantage in whatever plot was going on.
The other thing it did is present a -real- penalty for Manshin, for taking risks.
As a player who enjoys playing a villain, I am open to greater penalties but like I have always said I want it to go both ways. If I catch any other PC working against my villain and I am able to take him/her down via PvP then likewise I want that PC to receive the same XP penalty hit or whatever punishment is deemed appropriate. I realize some might say well we are talking about the Crown catching the villain and yes I understand. However many PCs assist in spying or sending information to the Crown to capture said villain so they need to realize they are taking risks in taking a side.
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Nov 11, 2013 23:16:40 GMT -5
but that's a controlled scenario between you and manshin's player. You can't make a gentleman's agreement with every player on the server.
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Fenix
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Sleepless Golem, aka Kenny
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Posts: 2,183
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Post by Fenix on Nov 11, 2013 23:28:42 GMT -5
Heh so this debate resurrects itself yet again.... well I definitely can understand wanting a stronger penalty but I dont think increasing the XP deduction is really what will make things different. Back when Manshin and Ranan had epic battles we had this gentlemen's agreement if either lost in PvP. We constantly were scheming against one another and of course against the other 'side' so if either of us got caught and died in PvP where no allies are around to raise us then we not only took the loss but also took time out of the game, at least 7 days sometimes longer. This granted the other player the advantage in whatever plot was going on. The other thing it did is present a -real- penalty for Manshin, for taking risks. As a player who enjoys playing a villain, I am open to greater penalties but like I have always said I want it to go both ways. If I catch any other PC working against my villain and I am able to take him/her down via PvP then likewise I want that PC to receive the same XP penalty hit or whatever punishment is deemed appropriate. I realize some might say well we are talking about the Crown catching the villain and yes I understand. However many PCs assist in spying or sending information to the Crown to capture said villain so they need to realize they are taking risks in taking a side. I feel the detriment for being executed should definitely be more severe. And I do agree with something like not playing the character for a time. If you are executed, you're not going to just be instantly raised and prance around greatgaunt 15 minutes later. Chances are that Cleric would likely be executed too because they are essentially committing a crime against the crown as well. I feel it makes more sense that if somebody is taking the risk to raise someone, its going to be on the down low for quite some time, and they wont do it until things begin to settle. But yes if there is someone spying, I could see a greater penalty for the risk there too, but then we have to consider the OOC raise thing and the serverwide death penalties. |
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Post by Grozer on Nov 11, 2013 23:38:58 GMT -5
but that's a controlled scenario between you and manshin's player. You can't make a gentleman's agreement with every player on the server. No you are right I cannot. But my point is XP penalty in it of itself is not going to gain you the desired outcome you wish to have. Clearly one of the reasons for this being brought up is the penalty is not large enough deterrent for people to operate under the radar. If its so easy to recover from offending the Crown then whats the big deal to be so openly evil. I also believe its a little more realistic to expect after an execution the criminal 'disappears' for a while, so I would suggest something other than increasing the XP hit. |
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Nov 11, 2013 23:51:57 GMT -5
I don't think the DM team will shut someone out of playing a character for a specific amount of time. Not letting someone play a character is essentially a full on ban. XP, gold, and settlement banning would do the trick, I'd say. Maybe some type of marking left on them forever too. Like male genitalia branded on their forehead.
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Post by bloodalchemist on Nov 11, 2013 23:52:47 GMT -5
I'd just like to point out that the other night there was a discussion between 8-9 people in greatgaunt, with about another 10 or so people around the square, discussing the fact that the crown is slapping people on the wrist with the current death penalty, and that any person who has so thoroughly caused trouble in the region to deserve and execution will return in 5 minutes from the grave just to get up to the same nonsense again. This seems problematic, it looks to me as if this server is suffering a massive problem for roleplay surrounding these events.
I realize there was a thread about this some months ago as well, but the problem hasn't gone away, which would explain why these threads keep popping up. I wish this is a server where behavior was good enough that we could rely upon the integrity of players involved as was the case with your rp Grozer. The fact that this sort of thing held a group of every alignment and multiple ic faiths in agreement, for the better part of two hours.
Unless we reset the logical part of our characters brains every time someone gets executed (repeatedly) in some cases, roleplay surrounding any pvp events seems like a joke, a facade thrown up to try and hide the fact that nothing has changed, nothing more than a slap on the wrist has been handed out, and evil runs unleashed to repeat it all over again. Now, I would love for this all to be handled icly and with good roleplay, but has that really happened? It seems like the only way to me at least, to stop people from doing chaotic evil things, is to engage in a long term pvp arc of the sort that would be considered griefing, until that character either no longer is played, or the server forces upon them a roleplay change via the threat of griefing.
Again, this is not the behavior i want to be involved in, but I don't see any other way to actually work against this sort of 'rp'. Unless something actually gives people incentive to not be executed by the crown, this sort of thing will continue to happen and inspire the benny hill theme song in the heads of anyone stuck dealing with it.
For reference:
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Post by ID10Tango on Nov 11, 2013 23:58:24 GMT -5
Speaking as the most recent person to be executed, I feel it's the attitude of the player base that is the problem. Not the penalty. Feel free to take an epic respawn right now if you think it's no big deal. Go ahead, I'll wait...
That's what I thought. Mobius stepped up to the plate to take his penalty for his actions. Yup, walked straight in to the Suzail War Wizard Tower and surrendered himself...since nobody seems to know. Nobody hauled him in, nobody captured him.
Did I do that because I felt like l losing gold and xp on my epic character was no big deal? No. I did it because I though selflessly of the other players and thought it might bring them some level of satisfaction to see his head roll.
Boy was I wrong. Imagine my dismay when Mobius shows up for his execution and nearly every person present is acting nonchalant and saying things like "Oh he'll be back. Let's just get this over with so we can get out of here."
Allow me to remind you all that the execution penalty was just the start. On top of the respawn xp/gold loss Mobius had to pay additional fines to various parties. I didn't like it. I didn't enjoy it. The whole experience wasn't fun...which is why we're all here right? To have fun?
After the axe dropped, Mobius was offline for 7 days. 3 of which were "recommended" by a DM. After Slates execution, his character was offline until today.
I did not enjoy playing through Mobys execution one bit. I've spoken to arisnorman about it and he hated getting executed too on Aris. It's odd that it seems that everyone except the ppl getting executed want harsher penalties. Maybe...just maybe...we aren't the ones not taking it seriously.
I say we keep it as is.
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Post by Dobian on Nov 12, 2013 0:10:50 GMT -5
I did not enjoy playing through Mobys execution one bit. I've spoken to arisnorman about it and he hated getting executed too on Aris. It's odd that it seems that everyone except the ppl getting executed want harsher penalties. Maybe...just maybe...we aren't the ones not taking it seriously. I say we keep it as is. I find that a bit surprising because the two times I have been executed on this server I enjoyed it. The events were very dramatic and there was a lot of roleplay around them. And I do agree that if your character is executed they should be offline for a fair amount of time. If they are up again after only a week it just becomes immersion-breaking. I don't see it as a punishment and I don't think it's that big a deal, that's what alts are for. |
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Nov 12, 2013 0:20:02 GMT -5
I also enjoyed Slate's execution. Given though, the penalty for it should be more severe including the alignment shift, the xp, the gold. It was my own personal choice of staying off of him for a month, following a week of jail time. And now that he's back, he's still suffering from the effects of being executed.
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Post by Grozer on Nov 12, 2013 1:31:21 GMT -5
I'd just like to point out that the other night there was a discussion between 8-9 people in greatgaunt, with about another 10 or so people around the square, discussing the fact that the crown is slapping people on the wrist with the current death penalty, and that any person who has so thoroughly caused trouble in the region to deserve and execution will return in 5 minutes from the grave just to get up to the same nonsense again. This seems problematic, it looks to me as if this server is suffering a massive problem for roleplay surrounding these events. I realize there was a thread about this some months ago as well, but the problem hasn't gone away, which would explain why these threads keep popping up. I wish this is a server where behavior was good enough that we could rely upon the integrity of players involved as was the case with your rp Grozer. The fact that this sort of thing held a group of every alignment and multiple ic faiths in agreement, for the better part of two hours. Unless we reset the logical part of our characters brains every time someone gets executed (repeatedly) in some cases, roleplay surrounding any pvp events seems like a joke, a facade thrown up to try and hide the fact that nothing has changed, nothing more than a slap on the wrist has been handed out, and evil runs unleashed to repeat it all over again. Now, I would love for this all to be handled icly and with good roleplay, but has that really happened? It seems like the only way to me at least, to stop people from doing chaotic evil things, is to engage in a long term pvp arc of the sort that would be considered griefing, until that character either no longer is played, or the server forces upon them a roleplay change via the threat of griefing. Again, this is not the behavior i want to be involved in, but I don't see any other way to actually work against this sort of 'rp'. Unless something actually gives people incentive to not be executed by the crown, this sort of thing will continue to happen and inspire the benny hill theme song in the heads of anyone stuck dealing with it. So I will just say this goes both ways. I do believe any criminal executed by the Crown should take their lumps and lay low for quite a while, they should not be seen. Give the victors their spoils for a bit and let it RP out. At the same time people standing around and RPing its merely a slap on the wrist are not helping the situation. RPing that a death penalty is virtually meaningless clearly is not helping. I guess I would ask how these same PCs have any fear whatsoever when they adventure and face the fiercest of foes? If it all goes bad I can respawn and / or get raised right? No big deal either. Following the execution, can they be raised in minutes? Yes but there is clearly a penalty that goes along with it. Being raised or resurrected is a soul wretching event that should be recognized as such. Just because the mechanics of the game make it seem so mundane does not mean it is. The RP should not be ignoring that fact nor that the Crown dealt the declared punishment for the crime. Justice was served. Just because there are those that choose to minimize the event in RP does not in fact minimize what happened, it only serves to fuel the fire that is this debate which occurs repeatedly... let me reiterate since I have been around this place for most of its 10 years this is not a new discussion and yet no matter what penalties/rules/laws have been adopted it is never enough and it generally always seem to be a problem against with the villain/criminal. |
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malleus
Old School
The first breath is the beginning of death.
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Post by malleus on Nov 12, 2013 2:32:00 GMT -5
I dont think that more of an exp lose is the real problem here.. after our little fight in GG the other day Carek Mobius and myself have had a swarm of tells about how we should not pvp on this server at all, and thats what i read from this post, wanting to give more of and exp penalty is just someone oocly trying to stop pvp on this server and going back to just giving eachother a hostile glare from across town..
however i will honor any gentleman agreement if people wants to make one. I have a few agreement with a few people around here and ill gladly make more.
exp lose wont keep me from pvp if the rp leads up to my toon having to defend himself or follow somones order to kill another person it will be done no matte how big the lose in exp.
I however dont have a problem with staying of that toon for a week or two even if there is no rule about it. for i do agree that one should not pop up in town 5 min after his head has been cut of.
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Post by Lady Frost on Nov 12, 2013 2:35:25 GMT -5
Speaking as the most recent person to be executed, I feel it's the attitude of the player base that is the problem. Not the penalty. Feel free to take an epic respawn right now if you think it's no big deal. Go ahead, I'll wait... That's what I thought. Mobius stepped up to the plate to take his penalty for his actions. Yup, walked straight in to the Suzail War Wizard Tower and surrendered himself...since nobody seems to know. Nobody hauled him in, nobody captured him. Did I do that because I felt like l losing gold and xp on my epic character was no big deal? No. I did it because I though selflessly of the other players and thought it might bring them some level of satisfaction to see his head roll. Boy was I wrong. Imagine my dismay when Mobius shows up for his execution and nearly every person present is acting nonchalant and saying things like "Oh he'll be back. Let's just get this over with so we can get out of here." Allow me to remind you all that the execution penalty was just the start. On top of the respawn xp/gold loss Mobius had to pay additional fines to various parties. I didn't like it. I didn't enjoy it. The whole experience wasn't fun...which is why we're all here right? To have fun? After the axe dropped, Mobius was offline for 7 days. 3 of which were "recommended" by a DM. After Slates execution, his character was offline until today. I did not enjoy playing through Mobys execution one bit. I've spoken to arisnorman about it and he hated getting executed too on Aris. It's odd that it seems that everyone except the ppl getting executed want harsher penalties. Maybe...just maybe...we aren't the ones not taking it seriously. I say we keep it as is. To be honest, Zoe is probably one of the PC's who would just roll her eyes and say "He'll be back doing it again". Do you know why? Because that's exactly what happens and you proved it once again. Today, your PC was placed on the list of PC's with bounties, dead or alive even. You may have been offline for 7 days, but your PC did exactly what the other people were commenting about. I think the xp penalty should be 250 xp/level for the first execution and 1000xp/level for any following. Included is being banned from all towns after the second execution. After the third execution you are wanted dead or alive anywhere in Cormyr at all times. |
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malleus
Old School
The first breath is the beginning of death.
Posts: 450
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Post by malleus on Nov 12, 2013 2:42:57 GMT -5
Speaking as the most recent person to be executed, I feel it's the attitude of the player base that is the problem. Not the penalty. Feel free to take an epic respawn right now if you think it's no big deal. Go ahead, I'll wait... That's what I thought. Mobius stepped up to the plate to take his penalty for his actions. Yup, walked straight in to the Suzail War Wizard Tower and surrendered himself...since nobody seems to know. Nobody hauled him in, nobody captured him. Did I do that because I felt like l losing gold and xp on my epic character was no big deal? No. I did it because I though selflessly of the other players and thought it might bring them some level of satisfaction to see his head roll. Boy was I wrong. Imagine my dismay when Mobius shows up for his execution and nearly every person present is acting nonchalant and saying things like "Oh he'll be back. Let's just get this over with so we can get out of here." Allow me to remind you all that the execution penalty was just the start. On top of the respawn xp/gold loss Mobius had to pay additional fines to various parties. I didn't like it. I didn't enjoy it. The whole experience wasn't fun...which is why we're all here right? To have fun? After the axe dropped, Mobius was offline for 7 days. 3 of which were "recommended" by a DM. After Slates execution, his character was offline until today. I did not enjoy playing through Mobys execution one bit. I've spoken to arisnorman about it and he hated getting executed too on Aris. It's odd that it seems that everyone except the ppl getting executed want harsher penalties. Maybe...just maybe...we aren't the ones not taking it seriously. I say we keep it as is. To be honest, Zoe is probably one of the PC's who would just roll her eyes and say "He'll be back doing it again". Do you know why? Because that's exactly what happens and you proved it once again. Today, your PC was placed on the list of PC's with bounties, dead or alive even. You may have been offline for 7 days, but your PC did exactly what the other people were commenting about. I think the xp penalty should be 250 xp/level for the first execution and 1000xp/level for any following. Included is being banned from all towns after the second execution. After the third execution you are wanted dead or alive anywhere in Cormyr at all times. Roll your eyes all you want.. "please" .. Mobius comming back from the dead was the work of the high priest in his group, and alot of RP from the rest of us.. I still dont agree on more exp lose, i simply just dont see the point in it.. is it corse you hope he will stop doing pvp all together ? however i do like the idea that after 3 times you will be an outlaw wanted dead or alive for the rest of yourdays.. that would make sence in a FR world. |
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Post by Trollfiend on Nov 12, 2013 3:46:46 GMT -5
Are we punishing people for breaking IC laws now? I've never been a fan. Execution penalties aren't limited to evil doers. There have been paladins who have been on death row because they defended someone from an evil baddie. Staying IC should not incur penalties that consist of losing levels. Otherwise, we're treating it as a punishment to deter reckless OOC behavior.
Just my grey (or gray) shaded opinion.
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Post by Trollfiend on Nov 12, 2013 3:57:47 GMT -5
I have a question.. Why wasn't Slate locked up for 30 days? Wasn't that part of the penalty also? It used to be. I've served a collective 2 and a half months in the slammer on this server. Heck, I was locked up for 30 days just for casting Daze on someone who spent 3 days in Greatgaunt annoying everyone that he could. I finally couldn't take it anymore, cast Daze, and was locked up for 30 days. I also had to face execution after a month's stay in the clink. Fortunately, I got off on a technicality (but not before staying 32 days in the Suzail jail). See, the player DOESN'T just come back in 5 minutes if they have to spend a whole month waiting for their head to be separated from their body.
I think that the problem is that not every DM will assign punishment the same way. I seem to get jail time whenever I act up in town, while others do mass murders and get a quick execution. It just depends on who's watching what kind of luck you have. Jail time should be both consistent and mandatory before execution. We don't need to take away 300,000 gold and experience points. We just need a more lengthy punishment.
With the jail token, you don't appear in the Welcome Room after a reset. You appear in a jail cell. There used to never be an immediate 20 minute execution. There shouldn't be one now.
I'm sorry you didn't enjoy your sentence, ID10T. I always thought a jail sentence both extended and enriched the experience. It used to be a great experience. I wish they still did it.
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malleus
Old School
The first breath is the beginning of death.
Posts: 450
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Post by malleus on Nov 12, 2013 4:13:33 GMT -5
I have a question.. Why wasn't Slate locked up for 30 days? Wasn't that part of the penalty also? It used to be. I've served a collective 2 and a half months in the slammer on this server. Heck, I was locked up for 30 days just for casting Daze on someone who spent 3 days in Greatgaunt annoying everyone that he could. I finally couldn't take it anymore, cast Daze, and was locked up for 30 days. I also had to face execution after a month's stay in the clink. Fortunately, I got off on a technicality (but not before staying 32 days in the Suzail jail). See, the player DOESN'T just come back in 5 minutes if they have to spend a whole month waiting for their head to be separated from their body. I think that the problem is that not every DM will assign punishment the same way. I seem to get jail time whenever I act up in town, while others do mass murders and get a quick execution. It just depends on who's watching what kind of luck you have. Jail time should be both consistent and mandatory before execution. We don't need to take away 300,000 gold and experience points. We just need a more lengthy punishment. With the jail token, you don't appear in the Welcome Room after a reset. You appear in a jail cell. There used to never be an immediate 20 minute execution. There shouldn't be one now. I'm sorry you didn't enjoy your sentence, ID10T. I always thought a jail sentence both extended and enriched the experience. It used to be a great experience. I wish they still did it. +1 i totaly agree |
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Post by Aseanamous on Nov 12, 2013 4:18:29 GMT -5
Guess I'll add my two cents.
To be honest, I don't care about how much exp is lost per execution, as I feel that is kind of an OOC punishment to an IC rule. Sure, losing EXP makes sense if you're using it to explain how the PC is weakened, but the exact number lost shouldn't really matter.
I'd be all for more IC rules placed against PCs who have been executed. Perhaps they're banned from towns for a certain amount of time (if not forever). Maybe officials won't deal with them for a certain amount of time (Cant turn in/do quests that involve the PDKs/Guards/etc). Maybe the guards will be more likely to arrest them for simple things in the future because they've already done wrong in the past. Also, anyone caught working with them could be put on a IC blacklist as well.
This would make things a little more interesting ICly, in my opinion. Otherwise, after an execution, life just goes on. No one is allowed to go after a person if they've already been killed once, so no RP comes out of an execution after the person is brought back to life.
Oh, and I'm also for people not playing their executed PCs for a while after an execution. That is if they didn't explicitly RP themselves getting raised ICly somehow.
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Post by ID10Tango on Nov 12, 2013 4:33:19 GMT -5
You were expecting him to be perma killed? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA  |
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Post by hellscream123 on Nov 12, 2013 4:38:37 GMT -5
This is just my read of whats been said.
We want more definition as to what happens after execution. For there to be obvious reasoning and guide lines that happen after someone gets the axe, as it's the highest penalty to a character in terms of the law and the crowns jugdement.
The big hiccup is; we still want to play, we still want to be part of the world, and being in a cell can detach you from that dependent on your play style.
Exp hits, eh it's exp you gain it back, yes I know it's hard and painful. But you've also agreed to break the law in face of the punishment.
In conclusion: definition, lets get a re-write and/or tweak of the rules cause apparently we don't like em anymore.
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Post by Pithirendar on Nov 12, 2013 4:59:33 GMT -5
I wasn't targeting anyone with this suggestion. After reading the replies I tend to agree that more IC repercussions rather than more of a XP hit could be more beneficial. (If it were to be implemented I'd agree with Munroe that it be a set XP amount. Much fairer.) IC repercussions could be pretty black and white so that they're easy for DM's to apply without too much fuss. Evenly and fairly across the board. I like this suggestion: I think the xp penalty should be 250 xp/level for the first execution and 1000xp/level for any following. Included is being banned from all towns after the second execution. After the third execution you are wanted dead or alive anywhere in Cormyr at all times. I like this too: I'd be all for more IC rules placed against PCs who have been executed. Perhaps they're banned from towns for a certain amount of time (if not forever). Maybe officials won't deal with them for a certain amount of time (Cant turn in/do quests that involve the PDKs/Guards/etc). Maybe the guards will be more likely to arrest them for simple things in the future because they've already done wrong in the past. Also, anyone caught working with them could be put on a IC blacklist as well. In conclusion: definition, lets get a re-write and/or tweak of the rules cause apparently we don't like em anymore. For me, it's not simply about not liking the rule so let's change it. It's about the world evolving to meet a changing need. Permadeath isn't an option but I think there should be some tangible consequences for a decision to break a law. Hopefully, encouraging thought before breaking the law. Considering the consequences for them OOC but also so that IC there seems like there is more weight to breaking the law. This might help to abate the conversations and remarks "oh they'll just be back in a tenday". |
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malleus
Old School
The first breath is the beginning of death.
Posts: 450
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Post by malleus on Nov 12, 2013 5:39:55 GMT -5
[/quote]For me, it's not simply about not liking the rule so let's change it. It's about the world evolving to meet a changing need. Permadeath isn't an option but I think there should be some tangible consequences for a decision to break a law. Hopefully, encouraging thought before breaking the law. Considering the consequences for them OOC but also so that IC there seems like there is more weight to breaking the law. This might help to abate the conversations and remarks "oh they'll just be back in a tenday".
[/quote]
After the fight in GG a few days ago we had a long talk with dm Hackmaster and he said something that I kind of like about how DM´s handle people that are known lawbreakers.
He said this is NOT America the guards of a city don’t need an overly good reason to arrest you or even kill you.
As he said that Mobius was known as a lawbreaker / murderer and the guard will take action on his every move.
(Or something like that)
This means that do to the execution he had, he now also has to take in to account that he may or may not be jailed for just standing next to someone breaking the laws.
This is a consequence to consider before you go down the path of murderess evil, as Zoe said in her post that she would like to see people getting banned from all towns after the 2-3 execution I think we are almost there already, and the DM´s are doing a good job to harass the lawbreaker IC´ly.
All in all.
There’s already a consequence to breaking the laws and there is no need for even more exp lose on that account.
It’s not like you just get executed and then all is forgotten and we can share an ice cream after worth no this go’s on for a long long time after the execution.
And don’t even get me started on the treatment of Aris Norman he got to that point that people would just take the law in to their own hands and right out kill him on sight even after he had paid his due to the crown.
So in my mind less OOC costs on executions and more IC consequence please.
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Post by Lady Frost on Nov 12, 2013 6:06:59 GMT -5
You were expecting him to be perma killed? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Feel better? And no, that wasn't what I said. -------- Up until now, the main punishment that has been given for execution has been an easy XP loss. As many people have said, and I can agree, under the right circumstances, if sufficient IC repercussions can be decided on and equally enforced throughout the DM team, I'm all for removing the XP penalty entirely. But doing that means the DM's are now put on guard duty, and the punishment isn't an easy couple of clicks. The enforcement of the penalty could go for months, or years and paying attention to it, and enforcing it could take a good bit of time, if these things aren't hardcoded. |
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Post by arisnorman1 on Nov 12, 2013 6:33:02 GMT -5
I don't think the DM team will shut someone out of playing a character for a specific amount of time. Not letting someone play a character is essentially a full on ban. XP, gold, and settlement banning would do the trick, I'd say. Maybe some type of marking left on them forever too. Like male genitalia branded on their forehead. when aris was beheaded for the GG fire i was asked not to play him for two weeks by the dms involved and i complied thats when i made garmath |
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Post by fisheyes on Nov 12, 2013 6:38:35 GMT -5
I don't think increasing the XP penalty will help much to make players and characters take executions more seriously. Though, the increasing XP penalty on repeated executions is an interesting idea. Increasing IC punishments, like being banned from cities is also good. More IC consequences.
And regarding permanent death...
I don't think permanent death should be enforced – but it should be encouraged!
If characters are permanently killed off, then there can be an end, a conclusion, to a (PCs) story. However, currently there are few stories on FRC that seem worth perma-killing your character over (there's a handful DMed ones, in which I might consider perma-death if it seems a good ending). Perma-killing your character after a random PvP in Greatgaunt that leads to your capture and execution doesn't sound like a good ending to any story. But if your PC first managed to summon that Demonic Apocalypse Horde, or take over Marsember with Sembian mercenaries, or infiltrate the Harpers and lead them into a deadly trap, or spread that Ghoul Plague in Valkur's Roar, and then let other players confront you in an *epic* duel atop a burning tower in the rain... *THEN* it might be worth perma killing your character, once you have actually achieved some real *EVIL*! Rather than just yet another eye-rolly PVP battle over a pointless I'm Good, You'e Evil Disagreement. For less evil characters, I'd consider permanent death if the death has meaning, or is somehow plot related (rather than random PVP related), or it's suitably epic, heroic, tragic or just fitting for the character; like sacrificing yourself to stop that Demonic Apocalypse Horde, or saving your Harper fellows from a deadly trap, or taking the blame for the conquest of Marsember to prevent a conflict with Sembia... (most of the permanent deaths on my old server were due to Heoric Sacrifice. Anytime I gave PCs an opportunity for a heroic sacrifice, they would jump at the chance, even when there were NPCs willing to take their place! It worked, because the players knew that the story was meaningful, and their characters would be remembered – and they were! I would not have forced permanent death on someone after random PVP conflicts.)
How to encourage permanent death and conclusions to meaningful stories:
- Give permanently killed characters a gravestone, statue, painting, skeleton, or other suitable placeable (or store items? Or items to other PCs) to remember them by.
- Turn the perma-killed PC into an undead boss monster in some dungeon!
- Give the players the chance to influence and affect the world around them, be it through planned DM events where PCs get to make choices and affect the outcome (in some way), or on player initiative with DM support.
- Give the player's next character some sort of privilege, levels or gold (not sure I like this one, but it could work).
- Record history so characters can be remembered. (I've mentioned this before; it's important.)
- Most importantly: actually create meaningful conflicts that are worth perma-death to tell a story! If not perma-death, then whatever other harsh punishment there is. The story and world must be serious enough so the consequences will be taken seriously too. Work with the DM team if needed.
Rather than OOCly punishing a player for breaking IC laws, find ways to encourage and reward players and characters for meaningful conflicts.
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Post by erratic1 on Nov 12, 2013 7:56:02 GMT -5
The issue with trying to enforce something like an execution is that the server rules do not support this: we can all respawn when our avatars die, or get raised/ressurected. At the moment, as discussed above there's an xp penalty involved for being executed, which is basically the same if you have to respawn under normal circumstances (ala death whilst adventuring), and I think that this is fair enough- I'm of the opinion that xp penalties aren't the answer to execution problems, as it's an ooc punishment for what is an in character issue- no server rules have been broken, so why should ooc penalties be applied?
However, something clearly -does- need to be done, or changed. as highlighted a few posts above, it's clear that nobody really thinks public executions mean diddly-squat anymore. They may have at one time when they weren't as common, now, they're quite frankly a bit of a joke. Cue the Benny Hill music... (very good reference there, by the way, very apt, BloodAlchemist.) ...as the guards/Purple dragons now have to deal with that same person smirking at them that was just executed an houor ago. How the -heck- do you roleplay that?
There has to be a much more substantial and meaningful -IC- penalty for PC's who break the law ICly- minor crimes get minor punishments and fines, yes, but I grow frustrated personally as I see assaults, brawls, murders, ecetera dealt with in the same manner, and the penalties and punishments laid out by the crown are not even enforced at the present, as certain people are friends with other certain people and tend to get "let off the hook" with things. This is another IC matter, but it lends itself to a problem which we are all obviously unhappy with from an OOC standpoint.
What I think needs to be done: (These are merely my viewpoints, feel free to agree/disagree with them as much as you like!)
1. Review the current laws and punishments, make them SIMPLER. This isn't PnP, this is a server, and very very dynamic, much more so than a PnP DM ever has to be controlling his 5-6 players around a table. We need IC laws for the realm that everybody can understand. At the moment everytime I log in I try to read through all the laws again and I still don't remember what I should, and I play a Purple Dragon. 1st plaint of the second tier of the third....?!!! It's just too complicated, the laws need to be looked at.
2. Meaningful IC punishments- if a character has done a crime, then he should do the time. or pay a fine. or whatever. But it should be meaningful. We can't really say that executions are an effective punishment- people are raised soon after and it's Benny Hill time once more. This needs to be stopped, quite frankly. How are people ever going to take any form of law enforcement seriously if the punishment isn't visible from other peoples' eyes? All others' can see IC is that person walking about again- they can't see any "Xp loss". No wonder there are people making comments IC along the lines of "here we go again" and "yawn" and "betcha he's back there in a week, and then next week".
3. A way for Purple Dragons or Guards to police without the need for DM intervention. This is a tricky one, because the guards/PD's also need to be policed as well. But there needs a system to be implemented where as a guard can deal with a "criminal" without the need to have a DM intervene as there isn't always one available.
4. A bounty system for criminals on the run.
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