Execution Penalties

[Deleted]

Nov 18, 2013 12:30:05 GMT -5 Grozer said:

Nov 17, 2013 22:18:19 GMT -5 The Tallest Dwarf said:

I always thought it would make sense if the Thayan Enclave got some additions where pc's wanted by Cormyr or just in need of some measure of immunity could stage themselves.Perhaps even giving the enclave a caravan (even outside the gate) would help with the feeling of isolation. Exiled PCs could ride it to a crossroads somewhere perhaps. Perhaps if the Exile script got added, attempt to enter cities that way.


I like the idea of a bastion in the Stonelands too, the caveat being that it's a high level area and not everyone who might seek refuge would be able to get there without assistance.

You know this is a great idea and not only because its something I had pushed for such a very long time back. In fact it was back when the general sense was that corrupt nefarious individuals controlled Redmist. At the time Redmist became Valkur's Roar and the generally considered 'safe haven' for bad PCs wasn't so much anymore.

The idea never really got much support or traction but I still think its an excellent idea, especially if it exists outside or on the fringes of the Cormyrian borders. Redmist had been well suited at the time because it was independent from the Crown and its own city-state within the Western Reaches lands. Stonelands or the Thayan enclave is a great idea, although the enclave is less so since Thay still likes to try and maintain the semblance of neutrality so as not to damages their trade opportunity (this is my opinion and interpretation). Stonelands is even a better idea, could be like one of those small towns in a bad western movie where there is no sheriff and anyone entering the place takes their life into their own hands. Heh. Either place would be great if it could also draw PCs to it so there is some level of interaction. As it is right now the Enclave could serve that purpose but realistically since no one really frequents the place the amount of RP is virtually non-existent.

I like the idea of the wilder place, like the Stonelands, just because virtually every populated place on the server is uberlawfullawfullawfullawfullawful. (Yes, if you tack the word "lawful" to itself enough times, it does get hard to read.) Chaotics need a place to go just as much as evils do.

[arisnorman1]

if you threw them all out of towns to the stonelands you would have to impliment so many more out of crowns reach places for them just to travle and i don't see the dm's making more areas just for outlaws and such. my two cents i like the idea of banning them from towns lol

[Dobian]

Another place I could see putting an outlaw hideout is on pirate island.

[Lady Frost]

I really think this new "sanctuary" will become abandoned once it's novelty wears out.

[Tipsy Imp Inn]

I know a place that any level could hang out at..

[Pithirendar]

Nov 18, 2013 15:36:40 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

I really think this new "sanctuary" will become abandoned once it's novelty wears out.

I dont think so.

The population of the place will likely be small but if your only other option is to camp and get someone else to sell your takings and buy healing supplies. It's going to be frequented out of necessity.
The only other place a pc might be able to get supplies is their guild (if they are a part of one)

I think it's a great idea. Three executions and you're an outlaw.

[arisnorman1]

if you become an outlaw you should get the option to join the bandits and such if you are going to push for outlaw.

[Sadistic Hobo]

The FRC module itself could not sustain permanent, nation-wide exile/outlaw as it exists now. You can barely even play a druid or ranger who doesn't utilize towns. Even one settlement wouldn't work for this idea. What outlaw wants to congregate at a lawless bastion of goonery that every last character with a chip on their shoulder would happen upon within a week of the update notes? To play around permanent exile, the module would need to have far more integrated and extensive wilderness systems and areas to facilitate the roleplay of that sentence. Until the module actually supports this logistically, I don't think exile as a sentence should be implemented. Exiled to where? That one town the people who exiled you will know about anyway?

[Fleur de la chevalerie]

Nov 18, 2013 17:39:19 GMT -5 Sadistic Hobo said:

The FRC module itself could not sustain permanent, nation-wide exile/outlaw as it exists now. You can barely even play a druid or ranger who doesn't utilize towns. Even one settlement wouldn't work for this idea. What outlaw wants to congregate at a lawless bastion of goonery that every last character with a chip on their shoulder would happen upon within a week of the update notes? To play around permanent exile, the module would need to have far more integrated and extensive wilderness systems and areas to actually facilitate that sentence. Until the module actually supports this logistically, it shouldn't be considered or played around for the playerbase at large regardless of who wants someone punished more. It would not be about roleplayability, but rather unplayability stemming from a style the module just doesn't realistically permit.

Reading the thread, no one suggested it be totally lawless, but more like a place where "might makes right" and a hierarchy of power is the law of the land. Since this is all speculation I think it behooves us to continue the discussion before poo-pooing the idea entirely.

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

Nov 18, 2013 17:39:19 GMT -5 Sadistic Hobo said:

The FRC module itself could not sustain permanent, nation-wide exile/outlaw as it exists now. You can barely even play a druid or ranger who doesn't utilize towns. Even one settlement wouldn't work for this idea. What outlaw wants to congregate at a lawless bastion of goonery that every last character with a chip on their shoulder would happen upon within a week of the update notes? To play around permanent exile, the module would need to have far more integrated and extensive wilderness systems and areas to facilitate the roleplay of that sentence. Until the module actually supports this logistically, I don't think exile as a sentence should be implemented. Exiled to where? That one town the people who exiled you will know about anyway?

For what its worth, this makes a lot of sense to me too.

Yes, we are currently working on expanding FRC's wilderness.

In a perfect world, I would like to see every settlement entirely circumvented with wilderness wherever possible. This might be a different discussion altogether.

Short version, SH makes good sense here, I think you all should consider their words.

[Lady Frost]

Well, then you could exile them from Metropolises (Arabel, Suzail, Marsember)

[Deleted]

You could at least exile them from the town(s) they committed their crimes in, if applicable. At least for a time? Three months?

[Lady Frost]

Nov 18, 2013 20:17:39 GMT -5 @sharauvyn said:

You could at least exile them from the town(s) they committed their crimes in, if applicable. At least for a time? Three months?

To be honest, i think it should be either permanent (until reconciled) or far longer. Both Wyn and Sonya are banned permanently from Suzail and they manage(d) just fine.

[StabbingNirvana]

Nov 18, 2013 15:36:40 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

I really think this new "sanctuary" will become abandoned once it's novelty wears out.

I think it's novelty will wear out when we raid it on a weekly basis......

[arisnorman1]

i see that ending bad lol whole server wars lol heh.

[Fleur de la chevalerie]

Nov 18, 2013 19:06:16 GMT -5 DM Justicar - Creator of FRC said:

Nov 18, 2013 17:39:19 GMT -5 Sadistic Hobo said:

The FRC module itself could not sustain permanent, nation-wide exile/outlaw as it exists now. You can barely even play a druid or ranger who doesn't utilize towns. Even one settlement wouldn't work for this idea. What outlaw wants to congregate at a lawless bastion of goonery that every last character with a chip on their shoulder would happen upon within a week of the update notes? To play around permanent exile, the module would need to have far more integrated and extensive wilderness systems and areas to facilitate the roleplay of that sentence. Until the module actually supports this logistically, I don't think exile as a sentence should be implemented. Exiled to where? That one town the people who exiled you will know about anyway?

For what its worth, this makes a lot of sense to me too.

Yes, we are currently working on expanding FRC's wilderness.

In a perfect world, I would like to see every settlement entirely circumvented with wilderness wherever possible. This might be a different discussion altogether.

Short version, SH makes good sense here, I think you all should consider their words.

My "noob" is showing because it has seemed to me that most major settlements can be bypassed and the major dungeons still available although this would limit some dungeon choices in some settlements for exiled people.It's good to know that more things are being added, though hardly surprising.


Edit:I forgot to mention, why should this place be openly discussed?It could be a secret addition to the server that you only get to learn about after you're exiled. I'm not sure if that is considered fair or if it would even work but I'm tossing it out there.

[Grozer]

I was not suggesting there be a town on the fringes where there is no rule of law and where exiled PCs go to stay. Nor was I thinking that resources would be devoted to essentially an alternate realm of play. It was merely a place where exiled PCs might exist rather than trying to constantly sneak around with a disguise that people seem to constantly request dice checks when they have little reason to do so, where they don't have to watch everything they do and so on. A place that is just outside where Purples care to be bothered since anyone staying in that region might just as easily succumb to their surroundings, i.e. the various wandering beasts and evil factions of the Stonelands or the rough environment in which to try and sustain oneself, as they would be captured. Essentially a locale where the evil, executed PC might 'hang out' and not be frowned upon when coming back from same said execution. It doesn't have to be large maybe just a single hideaway with a tavern and rooms, a simple stable of basic necessities etc. and where the rule of law is really about everyone watching their own back. We already have a couple of places in the mod that somewhat exist like this... one that is oft underused lies in the Underdark. If it were located a little differently then I might just simply suggest that as an option.

As to any PC that might think it fun to go bounty hunting there they might be deterred by the surroundings of such a dangerous land or the unknown of 'who' is hiding out there. It clearly might not be any walk in the park to hit the place every week and should such hunters get captured or caught there... well the consequences might be far worse. Note fearful of consequences goes both ways.

One more point, places in major towns of Cormyr dont offer the same solution. While the Tipsy Imp is fine choice the whole point of this topic was that executed PCs are showing up again shortly after punishment and they should stay out of sight for a while.

Anyway I just wanted to clarify what and why I think the idea works.

[StabbingNirvana]

So basically universal settlement banning is out.

So we're left with:

1. Increased jail time (which is probably the most penalty on any player/character)
2. Larger xp/gp penalty (this is an IC penalty)
3. Bounties (which could amount up to a larger XP loss than a flat XP/level loss in the long run)

[Razgriz]

Nov 19, 2013 1:39:43 GMT -5 Grozer said:

I was not suggesting there be a town on the fringes where there is no rule of law and where exiled PCs go to stay. Nor was I thinking that resources would be devoted to essentially an alternate realm of play. It was merely a place where exiled PCs might exist rather than trying to constantly sneak around with a disguise that people seem to constantly request dice checks when they have little reason to do so, where they don't have to watch everything they do and so on. A place that is just outside where Purples care to be bothered since anyone staying in that region might just as easily succumb to their surroundings, i.e. the various wandering beasts and evil factions of the Stonelands or the rough environment in which to try and sustain oneself, as they would be captured. Essentially a locale where the evil, executed PC might 'hang out' and not be frowned upon when coming back from same said execution. It doesn't have to be large maybe just a single hideaway with a tavern and rooms, a simple stable of basic necessities etc. and where the rule of law is really about everyone watching their own back. We already have a couple of places in the mod that somewhat exist like this... one that is oft underused lies in the Underdark. If it were located a little differently then I might just simply suggest that as an option.

As to any PC that might think it fun to go bounty hunting there they might be deterred by the surroundings of such a dangerous land or the unknown of 'who' is hiding out there. It clearly might not be any walk in the park to hit the place every week and should such hunters get captured or caught there... well the consequences might be far worse. Note fearful of consequences goes both ways.

One more point, places in major towns of Cormyr dont offer the same solution. While the Tipsy Imp is fine choice the whole point of this topic was that executed PCs are showing up again shortly after punishment and they should stay out of sight for a while.

Anyway I just wanted to clarify what and why I think the idea works.

I agree with this.

[megascorpion]

Personally I like time off, I don't think it needs to be nearly as severe as has been suggested here though for things to make sense, and for there to be some actual weight behind a death for the ongoing plot/story. It is the only way to make the deaths and executions actually matter to anyone but the person dying/being executed without resorting to permadeath or "might as well be" permadeath.

Execution: 10 day ban for the character counted from the point of capture, not the arbitrary point of execution. And when applicable, 30 day ban from the city/town in which the crime was committed in. And the xp penalty reduced to that of a normal respawn. Double this once for all repeat offenses(so a 20 day ban for the character and 60 day ban from the city/town. for all executions beyond the first). Alternatively, if the ban is to be used from the point of execution, use the same as the suggestion for other pvp deaths+the normal town banning).

Additionaly, for the same reasons as the execution rules: If one dies in pvp in a way that a respawn is necessary(body destroyed, buried, hidden or left in the wilderness for example), 3-7 day ban for that character(I'd suggest 5 days personally).

I'm also yet again curious to find out how an increased xp penalty for executions but not other deaths is an IC penalty..? As this has yet to be explained. How does an execution by the Cormyrian law take more of the soul than any other death/execution? Anyway, those things do nothing to solve the problems of the aftermath of executions and deaths, which is the real problem in a server without permadeath.

[blinddevil]

+1000 to Grozer. I am all for a fringe area like he describes. Sine Cormyr is a lawful good country, having a place in the mod that exists outside the reach/interest of the law would be great. To some extent a slum section in marsember, and the Thayan Enclave, have elements of this, but are not sufficient. Grozers idea kind of reminds me of Sigil from planescape in feel, but on a much smaller scale of course. Stonelands would be a perfect location with a few tweaks to areas leading there to allow for slightly safer travel...

[ID10Tango]

I still don't quite grasp the concept of why this should be changed in the first place. As I questioned the OP, you're insinuating that these changes should be made in an attempt to change the way people RP. There have been many quotes of "people will weigh the risk VS benefit of their actions more seriously". Isn't that a polite way of saying "people will change the way they play based on the harsher suggestions".

You all realize you are talking about removing the playability of a character by "banning" them, or moving them to the outskirts of the server away from the general population, and you're suggesting harsher xp/gold losses if caught...which to someone like me just means that there will only be more death to prevent any chance of that happening...

This all seems to stem from a mob mentality that something that won't affect their character should be made harsher. That to me seems a little biased.

Some of us don't have 22 characters at our disposal. I have two. A main and an alt. The main is currently wanted, and the alt isn't nearly as fun to play. These suggestions look to me like an outcry for me to just stop playing.

[Grozer]

Oh I had one other suggestion though I don't think this will be as popular and its clearly an OOC action to control the reaction to executions. DMs shouldn't make the execution a public event, especially a repeat offender. Now this is a little harsher and I am of the opinion that creating an event around the punishment is fun or at least interesting RP for everyone to some extent. However it also adds to the 'fun' of being executed, almost making the whole thing kind of reputation building. Actually it does but my point is perhaps the first offense OK, but repeated offenses might result in the PC being jailed in isolation for a period of time, banned from town and then 'executed' privately. IC the Crown might do such a thing so that it is not as easy the second time around for the villain's associates to recover the body and raise him/her. Also it becomes less rewarding for the PC (and player) to get caught and punished.

Granted it could be up to DMs' discretion based on context of the offense. If it was part of a large drawn out plot that resulted in some murder or assassination perhaps the plot could be continued via a public execution regardless of how many times said villain has committed the crime. Or if its a known criminal that DMs agree is consistent about RPing the consequences of their actions, i.e. not immediately being 'raised' and mocking the punishment, etc then it might be perfectly reasonable to add some flavor or in game event around the outcome for all to participate. But in general from my perspective, carrying out the sentence as an event does not discourage the crime from taking place.

[Grozer]

Nov 19, 2013 11:35:23 GMT -5 ID10Tango said:

I still don't quite grasp the concept of why this should be changed in the first place. As I questioned the OP, you're insinuating that these changes should be made in an attempt to change the way people RP. There have been many quotes of "people will weigh the risk VS benefit of their actions more seriously". Isn't that a polite way of saying "people will change the way they play based on the harsher suggestions".

You all realize you are talking about removing the playability of a character by "banning" them, or moving them to the outskirts of the server away from the general population, and you're suggesting harsher xp/gold losses if caught...which to someone like me just means that there will only be more death to prevent any chance of that happening...

This all seems to stem from a mob mentality that something that won't affect their character should be made harsher. That to me seems a little biased.

Some of us don't have 22 characters at our disposal. I have two. A main and an alt. The main is currently wanted, and the alt isn't nearly as fun to play. These suggestions look to me like an outcry for me to just stop playing.

I will take an attempt to answer your concern, in my humble opinion it all boils down to RPing the consequences of actions and risks. Unfortunately I also believe most focus on criminals in this regard but honestly my perspective is that many PCs, good, neutral and evil all fail to fully incorporate that aspect of RP into their character. More to the point of this OP, some feel like villains are NOT fearing the outcome of their actions.

I don't want it to appear I am calling anyone out and I honestly have not seen very much of Mobius RP. However I was there in VR when he was executed. And honestly I had mixed reaction to his actions during the actual beheading. Not that it was wrong or anything because after-all no one should tell anyone else how to RP.

[Deleted]

Nov 19, 2013 11:35:23 GMT -5 ID10Tango said:

I still don't quite grasp the concept of why this should be changed in the first place. As I questioned the OP, you're insinuating that these changes should be made in an attempt to change the way people RP. There have been many quotes of "people will weigh the risk VS benefit of their actions more seriously". Isn't that a polite way of saying "people will change the way they play based on the harsher suggestions".

You all realize you are talking about removing the playability of a character by "banning" them, or moving them to the outskirts of the server away from the general population, and you're suggesting harsher xp/gold losses if caught...which to someone like me just means that there will only be more death to prevent any chance of that happening...

This all seems to stem from a mob mentality that something that won't affect their character should be made harsher. That to me seems a little biased.

Some of us don't have 22 characters at our disposal. I have two. A main and an alt. The main is currently wanted, and the alt isn't nearly as fun to play. These suggestions look to me like an outcry for me to just stop playing.

Honestly, ID, to me, this would make some of my characters MORE playable, not less. I play almost all chaotic good characters, and I really, really, REALLY tamp down the chaoticness of my characters because of how it would be to lose easy access to resources like healing supplies and buff potions for getting caught at breaking the law. It's not just evil, but chaos as well, that really takes it on the chin in terms of being able to adequately play one's alignment. If there were a place my character(s) could recede to and hide out from the law in a meaningful way without losing the ability to participate in adventuring, I would love it.

For Mobius, the way I see this is absolutely not an outcry to stop playing Mobius. Far from it. The way I see it is people asking for the opportunity to have Mobius lurking in the countryside like a monster, which is basically how it seems you play him in terms of story role and function, instead of always walking down the street in the middle of town, and the lowbie starter town of all places. At the moment, it might seem like there's not a lot of RP in that, but I really think that in time, and probably not too long a time, people would go looking for encounters, both friendly and hostile, with characters like Mobius.

[Pithirendar]

Nov 19, 2013 1:39:43 GMT -5 Grozer said:

I was not suggesting there be a town on the fringes where there is no rule of law and where exiled PCs go to stay. Nor was I thinking that resources would be devoted to essentially an alternate realm of play. It was merely a place where exiled PCs might exist rather than trying to constantly sneak around with a disguise that people seem to constantly request dice checks when they have little reason to do so, where they don't have to watch everything they do and so on. A place that is just outside where Purples care to be bothered since anyone staying in that region might just as easily succumb to their surroundings, i.e. the various wandering beasts and evil factions of the Stonelands or the rough environment in which to try and sustain oneself, as they would be captured. Essentially a locale where the evil, executed PC might 'hang out' and not be frowned upon when coming back from same said execution. It doesn't have to be large maybe just a single hideaway with a tavern and rooms, a simple stable of basic necessities etc. and where the rule of law is really about everyone watching their own back. We already have a couple of places in the mod that somewhat exist like this... one that is oft underused lies in the Underdark. If it were located a little differently then I might just simply suggest that as an option.

As to any PC that might think it fun to go bounty hunting there they might be deterred by the surroundings of such a dangerous land or the unknown of 'who' is hiding out there. It clearly might not be any walk in the park to hit the place every week and should such hunters get captured or caught there... well the consequences might be far worse. Note fearful of consequences goes both ways.

One more point, places in major towns of Cormyr dont offer the same solution. While the Tipsy Imp is fine choice the whole point of this topic was that executed PCs are showing up again shortly after punishment and they should stay out of sight for a while.

Anyway I just wanted to clarify what and why I think the idea works.

I can see now why server wide settlement banning isn't really an option.

I do really like Grozer's suggestion above.

I think the recent bounties have been great.

I do think that the character should be permanently banned from a town/city after repeat offences. Much like how Aris was banned from GG and others have been banned from Suzail in the past.
 

It may just be as simple as there being a more transparent list of consequences to specific actions is needed. I'm only referring specifically to execution here.

ie
Character commits crime,  is found and executed: same penalty as now

Character didn't learn his lesson. Commits another crime. Is caught and/or bounty is placed on them - same penalty as now PLUS penalty increases to - tenday in jail (7 rl days) before execution (7 day RL time out after execution to allow recuperation after death)
------ also allows for RP in jail and possible jail break etc)

Character commits another crime. Is caught and/or has a greater bounty placed upon them. - same penalty as now PLUS penalty increases again -  tenday in jail (7 rl days) before execution (7 day RL time out after execution to allow recuperation after death), also banned from town crime committed in or major cities permanently. Character is considered a threat to the realm -- this means that in future if their name is associated with something, even if they technically aren't guilty, they've proven to be a threat before, it's probable that they'll be treated with high suspicion and a guilty before innocent attitude.

Note: this is ONLY if you get caught! If you don't get caught then you don't face the consequences. Crimes can/will/should/still happen!

----

Nov 19, 2013 11:35:23 GMT -5 ID10Tango said:

I still don't quite grasp the concept of why this should be changed in the first place. As I questioned the OP, you're insinuating that these changes should be made in an attempt to change the way people RP. There have been many quotes of "people will weigh the risk VS benefit of their actions more seriously". Isn't that a polite way of saying "people will change the way they play based on the harsher suggestions".

You all realize you are talking about removing the playability of a character by "banning" them, or moving them to the outskirts of the server away from the general population, and you're suggesting harsher xp/gold losses if caught...which to someone like me just means that there will only be more death to prevent any chance of that happening...

This all seems to stem from a mob mentality that something that won't affect their character should be made harsher. That to me seems a little biased.

Some of us don't have 22 characters at our disposal. I have two. A main and an alt. The main is currently wanted, and the alt isn't nearly as fun to play. These suggestions look to me like an outcry for me to just stop playing.

I've already addressed these concerns and I am sorry you continue to feel that way.

but this

This all seems to stem from a mob mentality that something that won't affect their character should be made harsher.

is just simply not true. I'm not going to go into detail here but this is something that could certainly affect one of my characters.

[Rane]

I love the bounties! And myself/zeek plan to collect all of them!

[Jarec]

Zeekamanderic Princess with no pantsian-Lynn

[Rane]

Lol

[Aseanamous]

Nov 20, 2013 14:07:54 GMT -5 Jarec said:

Zeekamanderic Princess with no pantsian-Lynn

Go Team!