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Post by Trollfiend on Nov 15, 2013 17:45:42 GMT -5
'Evil' pc's don't just kill 'good' either. There are those other pesky 'evils' they sometimes have to worry about also. It's not just about 'good' v 'evil' and really this isn't a debate about who has it harder. There are advantages and disadvantages to every alignment/class/race. It's not about PVP either. That's a completely separate topic. IF a pc commits enough horrendous crimes AND they are caught by the crown on a server where there is no permadeath (I'm certainly not advocating for this) then the consequences, I believe, should be more tangible than what they are. As for what they should be changed to. I don't know but I've mentioned my thoughts earlier on in the thread. I think there have been some good suggestions and points raised so far. I'd like to see more suggestions about what people think would be good IC consequences after someone has been executed by the crown. Particularly for repeat offenders. I stated earlier that I think XP penalties are not the answer. De-leveling is not the answer. I think the answer is to create IC consequences that deepen immersion for everyone. A player who has a character who is executed by a DM is, in reality, receiving a DM award. The award is the DMs time and attention. I have run executions as a DM, and doing them right requires time and planning. DMs usually allow for a role-played trial and other behind the scenes RP opportunities. My last execution took up at least 8-10 hours of my time in planning and in game RP. That kind of DM attention is a REWARD, and anyone who gets that kind of attention should be grateful for it. That being said, after the execution takes place, it’s the player of the executed character's responsibility to RP consequences and not just jump back into the fray like nothing happened. As others have stated: Your character was just executed, waltzing back into town a day or two later like nothing happened is simply poor RP. Suffice to say many players do a very good job of RPing IC consequences on their own, some do a crappy job. Therefore I think executions should result in a progressive IC penalty that make more sense from a game world perspective. For instance: 1st Execution: Character banned from towns in Cormyr for 30 days. 2nd Execution: Character banned from towns in Cormyr indefinitely 3rd Execution: Character banned from towns and permanent bounty on character. These are just suggestions - others have suggested scripting such as on Prisoners of the mist, where the character is given a token that makes NPC guards hostile. I think that’s a great idea - but I am not sure if the server admin team wants to go that far. Anyway - in summary - Being executed is a privilege, and should be a great opportunity for RP hooks for many characters. I believe the consequences should be IC not OOC. How about increased jail time for repeat offenders? Not just 5 days, either. Not two weeks. How about 1 month (should I bold that?) for the first offense prior to execution. Next time it's two months. Time after that it's 3 months in jail. No simple donning a hood or wearing a helmet will let you walk out of jail, though if you're clever enough and have some friends, you can break out of jail. Jail time is RP also. It's IC. It works. It's actually fun. |
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Post by blinddevil on Nov 15, 2013 17:48:16 GMT -5
I like the jail time idea too. 
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Post by Trollfiend on Nov 15, 2013 17:48:18 GMT -5
The only part of this I would have a hard time with is saying that an execution is a reward, not every person will see things this way ooc even if their character had it coming. Perhaps the person ooc is mad because their characters plot didn't come to fruition the way they had hoped or they were one upped by their adversary who they really wanted to trounce. I'm not saying your perspective is wrong because its not but I think each person whether they are good at rolling with the RP or not are going to have different feelings about this whole topic. Some will thrive on this kind of RP and not mind having their character out of the mix for a month, for others its going to be hard and maybe even somewhat depressing in an ooc sense. From my personal perspective I would not run an event or perform an execution with the mindset that I was giving Mr. or Mrs. X a reward simply because I was giving them attention. In my mind a reward is the xp you get after the quest is finished or that shiny new item that adds some flavor to playing a character but my attention alone, not so much. I'm sure there are different views on this but for the record, that's where I stand. That's why execution should remain the same as respawning. It shouldn't come at any extra cost. When evil kills good, they respawn. When evil gets caught, they respawn. It's fair. PvP should be the same across the board. Either they both go up or they both stay the same. |
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Nov 15, 2013 18:02:01 GMT -5
The only part of this I would have a hard time with is saying that an execution is a reward, not every person will see things this way ooc even if their character had it coming. Perhaps the person ooc is mad because their characters plot didn't come to fruition the way they had hoped or they were one upped by their adversary who they really wanted to trounce. I'm not saying your perspective is wrong because its not but I think each person whether they are good at rolling with the RP or not are going to have different feelings about this whole topic. Some will thrive on this kind of RP and not mind having their character out of the mix for a month, for others its going to be hard and maybe even somewhat depressing in an ooc sense. From my personal perspective I would not run an event or perform an execution with the mindset that I was giving Mr. or Mrs. X a reward simply because I was giving them attention. In my mind a reward is the xp you get after the quest is finished or that shiny new item that adds some flavor to playing a character but my attention alone, not so much. I'm sure there are different views on this but for the record, that's where I stand. That's why execution should remain the same as respawning. It shouldn't come at any extra cost. When evil kills good, they respawn. When evil gets caught, they respawn. It's fair. PvP should be the same across the board. Either they both go up or they both stay the same. Executions are not PvP, however, but the response to laws being broken. Personally, I'm a fan of the settlement ban, provided there's some way to enforce it that isn't just stopped by someone changing their usual clothing and wearing a hood. There's already a huge amount of lenience given when the laws are broken; a person has to do a hell of a lot before they're executed. Most people that I've seen rarely spend more than a couple of hours (a couple of days, in strong cases) in a cell, much less headed for the executioner's block. It commonly makes the guards- meaning militia and town guards- and the Dragons look rather silly, because they can't keep obviously-recurring criminals in a cell (or buried, if they're executed). |
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Post by Razgriz on Nov 15, 2013 18:17:46 GMT -5
The reason why I think XP penalties should be higher is because good characters can't fend for themselves. They aren't allowed to hunt down known evils. Their isn't enough support from from dm's to help assist in putting down the bad guys. Good guys are relegated to being sitting ducks while evils are allowed to freely go about working on assassinations, planning their attacks and attacking in large numbers with huge force to put down anyone anywhere. If good characters have no option other than dying so that you could further your awesome evil story-line plot of being a murderer and super strong, in the process shaming and or disrupting said other players rp/character, you should be willing to take a significant XP/gp hit if you manage being found out. I've mentioned this before to DMs about the helplessness of goodly types on various occasions. If the playing field was even, I'd have a different opinion on it, but since the playing field isn't even, I'm of mind that consequences should be much stiffer. About the 10x respawn without losing a level, I miscalculated numbers but even still, the number doesn't lie too far off from having up to around 10 respawns a level, depending on your XP at the time. No character is going to chain executable crimes over and over again. Taking 1 respawn hit with the possibility of losing a level isnt even a penalty. Its a joke. Hate to disagree bud, paladins are not like the other good chars out there. We play superhard mode in these situations and such, BUT that makes it more rewarding when we prevail. Does it not? |
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Post by Lady Frost on Nov 15, 2013 20:21:14 GMT -5
Another idea from a previous, though similar, thread was to remove adventuring charters. After an execution you lose your charter. You can choose to continue like that and take the chance you get caught without one, or you can reapply for it and have to prove you're worthy of having one again. Maybe you can try to forge one or bribe for one, etc.
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Post by blinddevil on Nov 15, 2013 20:36:25 GMT -5
Another idea from a previous, though similar, thread was to remove adventuring charters. After an execution you lose your charter. You can choose to continue like that and take the chance you get caught without one, or you can reapply for it and have to prove you're worthy of having one again. Maybe you can try to forge one or bribe for one, etc. Mechanically, not having a charter in your inventory sends you to the starting area when you log in. Scripting could be changed of course... Although possibly you meant RPing not having a charter? |
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Post by Lady Frost on Nov 15, 2013 20:39:37 GMT -5
Hmm, a DM could change the name of it to say "Voided" then.
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Post by Sadistic Hobo on Nov 15, 2013 20:42:54 GMT -5
My opinion is that execution roleplay itself is a non-issue. The problem I think we do have here is a poor law enforcement roleplay practice that fails to adequately work within known and accepted OOC limitations of the game. I think this practice creates more problems than necessary. The following post will contain a rambling, after-school special tone as well as youtube links and visual aids. Death is a massive plot hole on servers like Forgotten Realms: Cormyr and we all know it. This plot hole is not even a problem because it is something the server has chosen in-lieu of enforced permanent death. Any character death is the same thing regardless of if it came from the noose, a time-stop gank, or a fire giant spellcaster that you totally didn't realize got buffed. All of these situations include a bit of absurdity when an in-character resurrection does not occur, and this is something we deal with all the time. Why is execution a problem when we see equal breaches in suspension of disbelief during routine play? For example, a guy who is critically struck into bone lasagna by a giant and abandoned by his party, only to respawn and be relaxing in town before that party gets back, does no more to break my "immersion" than an executed PC chilling in Greatgaunt. Immersion is a myth. We're all playing make-believe under very limited public circumstances, meaning there's nonsense in any corner you can shine a flashlight. The only difference between a party respawn and an execution in terms of "immersion" is that someone might really want your PC to stay dead or suffer more from the context of their own perspective or bias. Death is simply a massive loophole under the server settings. This is an informed loophole because we have chosen it and prefer it to the only viable alternative. Just play around it in the exact same way we play around time. Ten seconds of thought spent on in-game passage of time does more to ruin all roleplay than any death ever could. The solution? For all that is holy, don't spend those ten seconds thinking about it. Rather than expecting an increase in the penalty to make executions more effective, we should recognize that the deaths those executions cause are the actual immersion issues. Here comes the point. Execution itself should be utilized less since it is a punishment that charges into one of the biggest plot-holes non-permadeath roleplay can have."But this will mean there are fewer consequences for stuff!"Well, not really. What consequence, what true hard consequence, does your typical PvP actually have for the recipient anyway? The norm is to grant an out-of-character resurrection, so there is next to no mechanical cost already. Furthermore, why is it fair to throw this argument at a character who kills someone when the same does not apply to their victim? Murdered characters are regularly alive and screaming mayhem about ten minutes after their deaths. Furthermore, it won't mean fewer consequences if alternatives are put in place, because the argument is already that execution is not effective. I think the real answer here is to stop deliberately playing into what we all know and accept to be a major plot-hole. This is a mechanic we've chosen to keep dysfunctional for playability, so let's not rely on penalties that specifically call up that dysfunction. Here's a visual aid. Disclaimer: It's a meme. Let's just use different mechanisms for typical executable crimes. Our characters already have to roll their eyes when they hear someone is even being charged with murder, because chances are the victim is perfectly alive and in plain sight, doing the same things they were before. Consequences go both ways. Let's just save execution for big-time story purposes and use alternative punishments otherwise. If we use execution in situations like these, then instead of seeing people just grumble that the guy will be back in a day, we might see something meaningful that hits our character where it counts. Maybe, for example, Cormyr goes mad in its quest for justice, and thereby becomes corrupt and oppressive. An unlikely hero rises to challenge tyranny and is tragically undone by betrayal. The hero is executed, but his death is the rallying cry of a revolution.
You know where I'm going here.
If we do it like that, then execution will actually enhance story rather than grant a respawn penalty to a guy who killed a dude who didn't care that he himself died. A benefit of this is that when you DO see William Wallace chilling in Greatgaunt the next day, you won't even mind because you'll get to see that awesome scene again, and we all know you've watched Braveheart eight billion times.
Execution is a huge plot-hole that doesn't serve a meaningful purpose if the emotional capital isn't there. So don't force it. It's not an appropriate punishment due to OOC customs and it's a poorly selected mechanic logistically. |
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Post by grivel on Nov 15, 2013 20:50:06 GMT -5
I don't understand people getting upset that an executed character is back the same day, when I've seen people imploded in a dungeon and the priest in their party brings them back to continue the fight. Death is death. As far as the xp loss, I think it is fine the way it is. PVPing a good person has a respawn penalty unless the evil OOC or IC raises them.
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Post by Trollfiend on Nov 15, 2013 21:10:50 GMT -5
Another idea from a previous, though similar, thread was to remove adventuring charters. After an execution you lose your charter. You can choose to continue like that and take the chance you get caught without one, or you can reapply for it and have to prove you're worthy of having one again. Maybe you can try to forge one or bribe for one, etc. Mechanically, not having a charter in your inventory sends you to the starting area when you log in. Scripting could be changed of course... Although possibly you meant RPing not having a charter? This could easily be fixed by adding a new item to be checked and calling it "Revoked" or something. Some sort of token to act like the charter for the purpose of avoiding the starting zone. |
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Post by Trollfiend on Nov 15, 2013 21:22:32 GMT -5
I don't understand people getting upset that an executed character is back the same day, when I've seen people imploded in a dungeon and the priest in their party brings them back to continue the fight. Death is death. As far as the xp loss, I think it is fine the way it is. PVPing a good person has a respawn penalty unless the evil OOC or IC raises them. People seem to think the guards have magic killing devices that kill people more. You know, a monster kills you only so much, but a guard can kill you good! Death is death. That's the immersion. Killing another player character is no different than killing a bandit. No different. Killing a human is killing a human. That's IC. It doesn't matter if you're sitting in Suzail, tromping through the Bramblewood, storming the bandit cave between Valkur's Roar and Greatgaunt or "clearing out" the Malarite druids in the Hullack Forest. You're killing humans. Murdering. Slaughtering. Ending their life. Just like it doesn't matter if you're being burned to a crips with the 300 damage breath weapon of a dracolich or having your neck snapped in a noose. The only difference here is the RP behind the kill. What did that kill mean to you? What did being killed mean to you? Once again, I maintain that if we up the XP loss of an execution, we up the XP loss of being vaporized by a priest's Implode spell. I don't care what anyone says- being imploded is more traumatic than having your neck snapped or even removed. Hell, if a druid is fast enough, the head could be put back into place and with a regeneration spell, restore the person before they even die. (you'd have to be fast!) For me, any penalty worse than respawn penalty breaks immersion. We keep screaming IC! IC! But, what's even remotely IC about being stripped of your levels because you died one way instead of another? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2013 22:51:19 GMT -5
If characters in game aren't allowed to "police" in any way without getting 8 hours of jail time, it's only fair that stiffer punishments are thrown out to people that enter town and force a defense. Oh my God, seriously! Absolutely agree, here. |
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Post by bentusi16 on Nov 15, 2013 22:51:56 GMT -5
I think the larger problem is that absolutely no one treats death at all seriously, whether it be via monster, pvp, or execution.
There is absolutely 0 fear left on the server. I don't know if there was ever fear. But you have a billion epic levels who've killed everything under the sun. Whats left to fear? And the superman theory applies. If the strongest character on the server isn't afraid of it, no one is afraid of it. No one is afraid of anything because nothing matters.
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Post by Razgriz on Nov 15, 2013 22:59:53 GMT -5
Perhaps the goal of us all must be to make it matter again, roleplaying the death of our own character/s better. There are several ways to do it, and I think every player here has some original ideas.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2013 23:27:22 GMT -5
I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I think what FRC needs as far as people taking death seriously is to actually lighten up on the lethality of the server. Specifically, I mean in conflict RP between PC's, and in DM plots, not automated adventuring areas. If you *can't* play the game for X amount of time without your character getting killed, but you want to participate in the game, it's natural that the average person will just ignore character death when it happens, pop back up, and keep going. People are here to play, and if that means taking your chances on dying, then that's what they'll do. If you want to see people act fearfully, or even prudently, or "take death seriously," then you can't be basically out of the scene or plot for doing so. There HAVE TO be avenues of participation and success that don't require a fight, especially with overpowering enemies. This goes for the PC and the NPC side of things. If the only way you can participate in a conflict is to risk getting whacked at any time, then no one who wants to avoid that will participate in the conflict, and all you'll be left with is the ones who act fearlessly to play with. More opportunity to play while respecting character death, without necessarily getting killed, means more RP with PC's who respect death. There's a certain logical beauty to this. |
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Nov 15, 2013 23:51:14 GMT -5
I disagree. I think the field is even on both sides. Evil can't kill off goods, just as goods can't kill off evils. Both are free to hunt each other, sure. Hopefully if one kills the other, the other respects that and bails out of whatever situation the PvP was for. But in the end good PC's are just as impossible to get rid of. Because you personally may have chosen a PC that's shoehorned into supposing to act a certain way and follow a certain code doesn't mean the overall situation is similar. As well, some PC's have been working for years to build their "surrounding protections and influences" and expecting to jump in and bring them down and "win" in a conflict or even a few months may not be possible. The same can be said for the other way around. A long term, good PC (who has spent the time to RP and gain it) can have a significant influence and power that the evils are going to have an incredible time dealing with. To be a bit more clear, I mean hunting and going after characters who are known to be working against Cormyr, namely people of banned faiths, ie: known Banites. About where good aligned characters are just as impossible to go after, I'd have to beg to differ. All that has to be done is getting an image distorting spell on your character and doing the deed under that spell, similar to what was done in the middle of Greatgaunt to Slate, the perpetrator still on the loose. Lawful good characters (I'm going to be more specific here) don't have the support of the law. They cannot support the law, and they can't take matters into their own hands in the events that a situation does arise. All they can do is sit on their hands. Edit: accidentally pressed enter, so here's the rest. Its not about codes taken. I originally made my pladin with hopes of being able to actively seek and hunt evil characters (mostly banites and cyricists, since tormish are supposed to hunt them down anyways) and bringing righteous wrath on them. That is in line with paladins and that is what paladins do. They don't dick around all day chilling, waiting for someone to attack towns. They don't only have a reactive and defensive side to them. But acting this way isn't allowed on the server. So until some mechanism is added to give a better sense of tackling the issue, something should be added to stifle people going around causing reigns of terror with the only penalty of a respawn. Whether its town bannings that aren't avoided by wearing a veiled hood or permanent bounties on peoples heads, I don't really care. I'd actually prefer those because then I -could- set out on the pvp I intentionally sought on when I made my character instead of just waiting for someone to badmouth someone in Greatgaung which will lead to open murder which I'm forced to do now. |
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Post by bentusi16 on Nov 16, 2013 0:07:48 GMT -5
I disagree. I think the field is even on both sides. Evil can't kill off goods, just as goods can't kill off evils. Both are free to hunt each other, sure. Hopefully if one kills the other, the other respects that and bails out of whatever situation the PvP was for. But in the end good PC's are just as impossible to get rid of. Because you personally may have chosen a PC that's shoehorned into supposing to act a certain way and follow a certain code doesn't mean the overall situation is similar. As well, some PC's have been working for years to build their "surrounding protections and influences" and expecting to jump in and bring them down and "win" in a conflict or even a few months may not be possible. The same can be said for the other way around. A long term, good PC (who has spent the time to RP and gain it) can have a significant influence and power that the evils are going to have an incredible time dealing with. To be a bit more clear, I mean hunting and going after characters who are known to be working against Cormyr, namely people of banned faiths, ie: known Banites. About where good aligned characters are just as impossible to go after, I'd have to beg to differ. All that has to be done is getting an image distorting spell on your character and doing the deed under that spell, similar to what was done in the middle of Greatgaunt to Slate, the perpetrator still on the loose. Lawful good characters (I'm going to be more specific here) don't have the support of the law. They cannot support the law, and they can't take matters into their own hands in the events that a situation does arise. All they can do is sit on their hands. Paladins are incredibly restricted in the pnp because, in the pnp, hey have a bunch of both roleplay and mechanical abilities that kind of make up for the INCREDIBLY strict codes they follow. Paladins are literally "With great power comes great responsibility" personified. FRC strips almost all the powers, and leaves almost all the responsibilities. And even non-paladin but lawful good/evil/neural chars are extremely constrained by their lawful alignment. That's part of the downside. But usually there's some upside as well, e.g. the law is on their side. A lawful character doesn't have an advantage by not breaking the law. That's just the nature of a lawful character. Honestly, I don't think Good and Evil matter one iota on this server. It's Law vs. Chaos, and chaos clearly has the advantage, because chaos cannot be punished in such a manner that means anything, and lawful is not actually backed up by the law, nor can they enforce the law. All they can do is not break the law, which is a passive action. Not breaking the law is their default state. On the opposite side, chaotic characters aren't as constrained, which is an advantage, but the downside is that they often are at odds with the civil authority, and are under more threat from the kingdom/authority by the nature of that chaos. But because of the way the server is, a chaotic neutral/evil/good character loses this disadvantage (fear of reprisal from the authority), but maintains the advantage of being chaotic (being able to break the law with no real moral qualms). Chaos is able to play an active role whereas law is forced to play a passive one, in the context of the server. In the PnP, law can be very active in combating chaos, and generally an authority unable to enforce the law is weak and isn't going to stay in authority very long. I don't make paladins with the intent of running around pvping every single evil character on the server. I think it's a cheesy, no brainer way to play paladins, the same way that I don't play evil characters who only goals are 'kill good people and cause chaos'. It's probably the reasons paladins are universally despised on a meta level throughout nwn; because people make a paladin and go 'I'm a paladin, that gives me free license to go around killing evil people!". It does not. A paladin is both lawful, and good, and both those alignments carry pretty hefty restrictions, especially in relation to the paladin. |
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Post by Lady Frost on Nov 16, 2013 0:18:49 GMT -5
I disagree. I think the field is even on both sides. Evil can't kill off goods, just as goods can't kill off evils. Both are free to hunt each other, sure. Hopefully if one kills the other, the other respects that and bails out of whatever situation the PvP was for. But in the end good PC's are just as impossible to get rid of. Because you personally may have chosen a PC that's shoehorned into supposing to act a certain way and follow a certain code doesn't mean the overall situation is similar. As well, some PC's have been working for years to build their "surrounding protections and influences" and expecting to jump in and bring them down and "win" in a conflict or even a few months may not be possible. The same can be said for the other way around. A long term, good PC (who has spent the time to RP and gain it) can have a significant influence and power that the evils are going to have an incredible time dealing with. To be a bit more clear, I mean hunting and going after characters who are known to be working against Cormyr, namely people of banned faiths, ie: known Banites. About where good aligned characters are just as impossible to go after, I'd have to beg to differ. All that has to be done is getting an image distorting spell on your character and doing the deed under that spell, similar to what was done in the middle of Greatgaunt to Slate, the perpetrator still on the loose. Lawful good characters (I'm going to be more specific here) don't have the support of the law. They cannot support the law, and they can't take matters into their own hands in the events that a situation does arise. All they can do is sit on their hands. Edit: accidentally pressed enter, so here's the rest. Its not about codes taken. I originally made my pladin with hopes of being able to actively seek and hunt evil characters (mostly banites and cyricists, since tormish are supposed to hunt them down anyways) and bringing righteous wrath on them. That is in line with paladins and that is what paladins do. They don't dick around all day chilling, waiting for someone to attack towns. They don't only have a reactive and defensive side to them. But acting this way isn't allowed on the server. So until some mechanism is added to give a better sense of tackling the issue, something should be added to stifle people going around causing reigns of terror with the only penalty of a respawn. Whether its town bannings that aren't avoided by wearing a veiled hood or permanent bounties on peoples heads, I don't really care. I'd actually prefer those because then I -could- set out on the pvp I intentionally sought on when I made my character instead of just waiting for someone to badmouth someone in Greatgaung which will lead to open murder which I'm forced to do now. You should start a thread on what "Lawful" means to a paladin. Lawful necessarily doesn't have to mean law-abiding. Does it with a paladin? |
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Post by Malignant Naricissism on Nov 16, 2013 0:28:14 GMT -5
To be fair, Lawful Evil does not mean you necessarily follow the laws of the land. A LE character can follow his own personal code, or the laws of his deity, and not recognize the local laws as legitimate authority. LE also tends to twist and pervert the laws and is often very hypocritical in their approach to them.
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wolfbran
New Member
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Well, I wish you would, but I think you won't.
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Post by wolfbran on Nov 16, 2013 0:38:53 GMT -5
Alright, I see five pages of whining and I was originally going to participate but instead I'll just say this.
I take character death very seriously. If my evil character is ever buried, or executed, I may perma the character. That's the way I am. I'm very realistic like that. If I die while adventuring and raised by a scroll, sure, I come back. Executed by beheading and/or burned, floated to sea or buried in the ground, chances are I'm done.
If my character gets locked up in jail for 30 days.. I'm not an alt character kind of guy. I play one character. I see people OOC creating a lynch mob because some Evils don't take it as seriously as I do. 30 jail sentence, and I will probably quit. That's why I try to be slippery and deflect most of the attempts to get my character in that sort of position. Also, if beheading gets to the point where you lose a level for it, I'll be done, then, too. It takes time to level on Cormyr. A lot of time, high levels.
I don't know if the DMs are actually watching this thread or not and considering making it worse, but if it gets way out of hand like that, all I have to say is no. I don't have that kind of time, and I won't put up with that.
Overall conclusion to what I skimmed through: NO.
And PS. If you want to talk about some of the lousy Paladins falling from faith, what it means to be Lawful, hell, make a new thread and I might participate in that one, because I got a lot to say about what I've seen. But, also, consider this(My PS is becoming a lot longer than originally estimated), it's a game, in the end. It isn't fair to lock the evil guy up for 30 days because chances are he will quit. We're here to RP and play. Lock me up and I can't do that, thus I'll be done. Also, it shouldn't be so one-sided. There is a lot more people that play the Neutral/Good side of things, yeah, but throw the Evils a bone every now and then. Make a plot that they can actually win. Have Evil take a part of the map, start a war between Celestials and Devils, let the Evil fiend summoners open a gate to the Abyss and/or Baator, or make some major plot that Evil can actually win so it isn't so stale. I'm not saying let Evil rule the server, but actually establish Evil and give them quests, so they can go their own way and keep it all rolling. Everyone wants to be included. Not everyone has a million alts. And with that, I have given my two cents. See you guys on a different thread.
Edit: I'm adding this. When I mention the 30 day lockup, what I was trying to hint at but realized it may not have been clear enough, if you establish Evil on the server, come up with a creative way to then bust the guy out of jail. Make is interesting.
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Nov 16, 2013 1:18:45 GMT -5
Paladins do have to adhere to the laws, atleast the ones that aren't encroaching on other's freedoms and such but this part of my argument is just a effect of this discussion. There isn't a strict working mechanism right now for lawful(as in lawful and not just orderly) characters to take action so there has to be something in line to discourage other characters from overstepping their boundaries into other character's spaces. We all know how town banning works and we all know the work around of it. It doesn't work until every person can be trusted to not ignore NPCs. Arresting someone and incarcerating them for an extended period of time is basically in line with a server banning. Placing a bounty on said person's head might work, but then that means you're open to being PvPed by everyone on the server. That would probably equate to way more xp loss than a single respawn, especially if bounty hunters organize and take turns posted by areas where shady folk hang around.
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Post by Razgriz on Nov 16, 2013 2:20:12 GMT -5
I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I think what FRC needs as far as people taking death seriously is to actually lighten up on the lethality of the server. Specifically, I mean in conflict RP between PC's, and in DM plots, not automated adventuring areas. If you *can't* play the game for X amount of time without your character getting killed, but you want to participate in the game, it's natural that the average person will just ignore character death when it happens, pop back up, and keep going. People are here to play, and if that means taking your chances on dying, then that's what they'll do. If you want to see people act fearfully, or even prudently, or "take death seriously," then you can't be basically out of the scene or plot for doing so. There HAVE TO be avenues of participation and success that don't require a fight, especially with overpowering enemies. This goes for the PC and the NPC side of things. If the only way you can participate in a conflict is to risk getting whacked at any time, then no one who wants to avoid that will participate in the conflict, and all you'll be left with is the ones who act fearlessly to play with. More opportunity to play while respecting character death, without necessarily getting killed, means more RP with PC's who respect death. There's a certain logical beauty to this. I think it depends on the plot, sometimes conflict means fighting and it is inevitable. But yes, as much as I like pvp, it should be kept at minimum. It is better when it rare, but when it happens to often much of the fun is gone. There are other ways to archive victory or success that do not involve violence against other PCs. |
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Post by Trollfiend on Nov 16, 2013 2:36:17 GMT -5
I think the larger problem is that absolutely no one treats death at all seriously, whether it be via monster, pvp, or execution. There is absolutely 0 fear left on the server. I don't know if there was ever fear. But you have a billion epic levels who've killed everything under the sun. Whats left to fear? And the superman theory applies. If the strongest character on the server isn't afraid of it, no one is afraid of it. No one is afraid of anything because nothing matters. What are you proposing? Electric shocks to anyone whose character dies? You can change it to permadeath and people won't fear death. I have perma-killed multiple near epic PC's in PvP and I haven't felt a single shred of fear. You can't induce fear in a game. Well, there are some games that are scary! But NWN isn't one of them. You can make it so that you lose twelve levels when you die and it won't be feared. People won't like it, but they won't be afraid of it. |
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malleus
Old School
The first breath is the beginning of death.
Posts: 450
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Post by malleus on Nov 16, 2013 2:47:54 GMT -5
I disagree. I think the field is even on both sides. Evil can't kill off goods, just as goods can't kill off evils. Both are free to hunt each other, sure. Hopefully if one kills the other, the other respects that and bails out of whatever situation the PvP was for. But in the end good PC's are just as impossible to get rid of. Because you personally may have chosen a PC that's shoehorned into supposing to act a certain way and follow a certain code doesn't mean the overall situation is similar. As well, some PC's have been working for years to build their "surrounding protections and influences" and expecting to jump in and bring them down and "win" in a conflict or even a few months may not be possible. The same can be said for the other way around. A long term, good PC (who has spent the time to RP and gain it) can have a significant influence and power that the evils are going to have an incredible time dealing with. To be a bit more clear, I mean hunting and going after characters who are known to be working against Cormyr, namely people of banned faiths, ie: known Banites. About where good aligned characters are just as impossible to go after, I'd have to beg to differ. All that has to be done is getting an image distorting spell on your character and doing the deed under that spell, similar to what was done in the middle of Greatgaunt to Slate, the perpetrator still on the loose. Lawful good characters (I'm going to be more specific here) don't have the support of the law. They cannot support the law, and they can't take matters into their own hands in the events that a situation does arise. All they can do is sit on their hands. Edit: accidentally pressed enter, so here's the rest. Its not about codes taken. I originally made my pladin with hopes of being able to actively seek and hunt evil characters (mostly banites and cyricists, since tormish are supposed to hunt them down anyways) and bringing righteous wrath on them. That is in line with paladins and that is what paladins do. They don't dick around all day chilling, waiting for someone to attack towns. They don't only have a reactive and defensive side to them. But acting this way isn't allowed on the server. So until some mechanism is added to give a better sense of tackling the issue, something should be added to stifle people going around causing reigns of terror with the only penalty of a respawn. Whether its town bannings that aren't avoided by wearing a veiled hood or permanent bounties on peoples heads, I don't really care. I'd actually prefer those because then I -could- set out on the pvp I intentionally sought on when I made my character instead of just waiting for someone to badmouth someone in Greatgaung which will lead to open murder which I'm forced to do now. If you are holding mortal law higher then divine law on your paladin then you maybe should not play him at all, if you ask me.. if I had a paladin of torm and found out that someone was following bane or cyric or just killing people without the crown doing anything about it I would take divine law in to my own hands and hunt the person down and kill him in the name of good, justice and what ever honor to be found from my god. and if the crown had a problem with that I would do my time in jail with PRIDE for i have followed the way of my god... if you cant do that then why even try and play a paladin. |
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Post by magiuss on Nov 16, 2013 2:59:45 GMT -5
'Evil' pc's don't just kill 'good' either. There are those other pesky 'evils' they sometimes have to worry about also. It's not just about 'good' v 'evil' and really this isn't a debate about who has it harder. There are advantages and disadvantages to every alignment/class/race. It's not about PVP either. That's a completely separate topic. IF a pc commits enough horrendous crimes AND they are caught by the crown on a server where there is no permadeath (I'm certainly not advocating for this) then the consequences, I believe, should be more tangible than what they are. As for what they should be changed to. I don't know but I've mentioned my thoughts earlier on in the thread. I think there have been some good suggestions and points raised so far. I'd like to see more suggestions about what people think would be good IC consequences after someone has been executed by the crown. Particularly for repeat offenders. I stated earlier that I think XP penalties are not the answer. De-leveling is not the answer. I think the answer is to create IC consequences that deepen immersion for everyone. A player who has a character who is executed by a DM is, in reality, receiving a DM award. The award is the DMs time and attention. I have run executions as a DM, and doing them right requires time and planning. DMs usually allow for a role-played trial and other behind the scenes RP opportunities. My last execution took up at least 8-10 hours of my time in planning and in game RP. That kind of DM attention is a REWARD, and anyone who gets that kind of attention should be grateful for it. That being said, after the execution takes place, it’s the player of the executed character's responsibility to RP consequences and not just jump back into the fray like nothing happened. As others have stated: Your character was just executed, waltzing back into town a day or two later like nothing happened is simply poor RP. Suffice to say many players do a very good job of RPing IC consequences on their own, some do a crappy job. Therefore I think executions should result in a progressive IC penalty that make more sense from a game world perspective. For instance: 1st Execution: Character banned from towns in Cormyr for 30 days. 2nd Execution: Character banned from towns in Cormyr indefinitely 3rd Execution: Character banned from towns and permanent bounty on character. These are just suggestions - others have suggested scripting such as on Prisoners of the mist, where the character is given a token that makes NPC guards hostile. I think that’s a great idea - but I am not sure if the server admin team wants to go that far. Anyway - in summary - Being executed is a privilege, and should be a great opportunity for RP hooks for many characters. I believe the consequences should be IC not OOC. as I stated earlier.. By given these people a Token so Npcs will attack them Removes every chance of Rp disguise's.. and will take the RP out of the hands of those who are wanted. in my opinion it is not the right wayto handle it.. the higher jail time seems more fitting OR.. if the Dm's can Ensure a token on the wanted people they need to Code making bluff checks all the time for guards to see if they are fooled by disguisses |
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Post by magiuss on Nov 16, 2013 3:06:04 GMT -5
Why is execution a problem when we see equal breaches in suspension of disbelief during routine play? For example, a guy who is critically struck into bone lasagna by a giant and abandoned by his party, only to respawn and be relaxing in town before that party gets back, does no more to break my "immersion" than an executed PC chilling in Greatgaunt. Immersion is a myth. We're all playing make-believe under very limited public circumstances, meaning there's nonsense in any corner you can shine a flashlight. The only difference between a party respawn and an execution in terms of "immersion" is that someone might really want your PC to stay dead or suffer more from the context of their own perspective or bias. you just Hit the Nail on the head with a massive hammer... |
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Post by magiuss on Nov 16, 2013 3:13:20 GMT -5
Death is death. That's the immersion. Killing another player character is no different than killing a bandit. No different. Killing a human is killing a human. That's IC. It doesn't matter if you're sitting in Suzail, tromping through the Bramblewood, storming the bandit cave between Valkur's Roar and Greatgaunt or "clearing out" the Malarite druids in the Hullack Forest. You're killing humans. Murdering. Slaughtering. Ending their life. Just like it doesn't matter if you're being burned to a crips with the 300 damage breath weapon of a dracolich or having your neck snapped in a noose. The only difference here is the RP behind the kill. What did that kill mean to you? What did being killed mean to you? Once again, I maintain that if we up the XP loss of an execution, we up the XP loss of being vaporized by a priest's Implode spell. I don't care what anyone says- being imploded is more traumatic than having your neck snapped or even removed. Hell, if a druid is fast enough, the head could be put back into place and with a regeneration spell, restore the person before they even die. (you'd have to be fast!) For me, any penalty worse than respawn penalty breaks immersion. We keep screaming IC! IC! But, what's even remotely IC about being stripped of your levels because you died one way instead of another? +1 |
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Post by quelunia on Nov 16, 2013 8:08:44 GMT -5
I have been reading this and have a firm opinion on this. I believe in perma death if a situation is so boxed in that there is no conceivable way to be brought back or escape from the execution be it by legal ramification or PVP between factions. For those of you that know of Shesh and his betrayal of a certain group and an assassin coming after him and killing him or so it would seem, Shesh has been gone for a very very long time. Many players that Shesh played with asked why I perma him and this and that I came up with a story as to how he avoided the situation and talked to the assassin and to others about the idea and we came to terms that Shesh could have avoided the death through magical means.
Now, Shesh to date has not came into contact with anyone that would have known him in life and he has been in hiding somewhere. So what I am saying is if you do a crime be willing to take the consequences. By crime I mean if you backstab your evil friends and they send an assassin be willing to reward their RP and be willing to reflect your RP, same goes for breaking laws and getting executed. If your comrades dont make an attempt to retrieve your body how can you reasonably expect to be raised?
The same holds true over jail sentences. If you have ever been jailed the RP doesnt end there. You are jailed, not able to leave the cell, however others may be allowed to visit and there is still RP to be had. Sitting in town goading a paladin to action or goading a suspected demon cultist into a fight are firstly stupid, and secondly the laws on the board in Greatguant state no harassment.
Loss of levels due to a crime are minor things when in reality you were killed... executed... DEAD! The old standard in D&D was if you died and were raised by means of a raise dead you lost a point of constitution for each time it happened... a few xp lost versus a point of con... hmmmm....
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Nov 16, 2013 8:13:47 GMT -5
Death is death. That's the immersion. Killing another player character is no different than killing a bandit. No different. Killing a human is killing a human. That's IC. It doesn't matter if you're sitting in Suzail, tromping through the Bramblewood, storming the bandit cave between Valkur's Roar and Greatgaunt or "clearing out" the Malarite druids in the Hullack Forest. You're killing humans. Murdering. Slaughtering. Ending their life. Just like it doesn't matter if you're being burned to a crips with the 300 damage breath weapon of a dracolich or having your neck snapped in a noose. The only difference here is the RP behind the kill. What did that kill mean to you? What did being killed mean to you? Once again, I maintain that if we up the XP loss of an execution, we up the XP loss of being vaporized by a priest's Implode spell. I don't care what anyone says- being imploded is more traumatic than having your neck snapped or even removed. Hell, if a druid is fast enough, the head could be put back into place and with a regeneration spell, restore the person before they even die. (you'd have to be fast!) For me, any penalty worse than respawn penalty breaks immersion. We keep screaming IC! IC! But, what's even remotely IC about being stripped of your levels because you died one way instead of another? +1 Quoting you cause I don't know where the quote you quoted could be quoted from. PvP and PvE (unless under dm control, which could then be considered PvP) have different implications than dying to random npc orc. Its two different arenas. If you die to an orc you're back up right away. You suffer a respawn and 30 minute memory lapse. There isn't any lasting effect on your character. If you die to a player you have a stain on your character. "Hey, you're the girl that got punched to death by Mobius, right?". There are different implications when dying to another player. Slate (when he comes back in full force) will be calling himself the dragon and phoenix (purposely spelled in that manner) slayer for the rest of his days and telling the story at every chance. All for a measly 800 XP. Hell, I could have been back in GG the very next day and done it but it wasn't against my better judgment. I chose to penalize my character so stayed off him for a month because the current penalty is doodoo. |
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