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Post by Malignant Naricissism on Nov 15, 2013 0:05:23 GMT -5
I don't think increasing the XP penalties will have the intended effect, but I do agree with a mandatory time-out period that would make the execution seem more meaningful as well as give the victors time to gain ground and enjoy their victory.
I do think that after a certain number of executions you should be wanted dead or alive by Cormyr anywhere you go though.
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Post by Savoie Faire on Nov 15, 2013 0:54:12 GMT -5
I would like to clarify:
We do not execute for PvP. Ever. PvP is between players, and it's up to the players to adhere to any terms upon which they agree.
We do execute for breaking the IC law and getting caught at it.
There are many ways to avoid execution, the easiest being, don't get caught. Yep, that easy.
Don't play stupid evil and PvP in front of witnesses or where such activities are prohibited by law, like in towns. Don't rage out and mass murder NPC's in towns. Don't brag about how many people your character murders every day in public places. Act like your character cares that he may be executed for such things, and that such a fate matters.
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Post by ID10Tango on Nov 15, 2013 3:07:10 GMT -5
Look! Another evil rp critique!
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Post by arisnorman1 on Nov 15, 2013 3:24:41 GMT -5
Look! Another evil rp critique! +1 |
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Post by megascorpion on Nov 15, 2013 3:32:03 GMT -5
I would like to clarify: We do not execute for PvP. Ever. PvP is between players, and it's up to the players to adhere to any terms upon which they agree. We do execute for breaking the IC law and getting caught at it. There are many ways to avoid execution, the easiest being, don't get caught. Yep, that easy. Don't play stupid evil and PvP in front of witnesses or where such activities are prohibited by law, like in towns. Don't rage out and mass murder NPC's in towns. Don't brag about how many people your character murders every day in public places. Act like your character cares that he may be executed for such things, and that such a fate matters. I think I'm having trouble interpreting your post. I don't think anyone thought that executions happened without IC reasons, furthermore I'm rather confused by the rest of your post, are you saying that lawbreakers will only ever get caught if they shout their crimes in Bentins face, and thus only come from players having their characters behave in an unrealistic, unsensible and stupid way? I realize there might have been a slew of that lately and you might just have intended to make an "RP sensibly" kind of post but in a thread discussing a rulechange where people are suggesting increasing the OOC(read: xp penalty, and yes, it is OOC when a death from an execution decreases xp more than any other kind of respawn) penalties for executions, I'd rather we not pretend that everyone who will ever get caught for a crime wasn't RPing properly(Though I'd too argue that people not taking fear and consequences into consideration properly is a problem). Yes getting people to RP fear and IC consequences is important, but this is not only true for breaking the IC laws, it is equally true for characters messing with a baddie, which you can avoid by not having your character get caught too. Point being, let's not vilify every player who has ever had a PC who has goten caught breaking an IC law(or goten caught by a baddie messing with their evil plans for that matter), and if the current rules are not enough, let's try and get a set of rules for these things that makes things sensible, and as IC as possible. Not a set of rules to OOCly punish players of characters geting caught breaking IC laws. |
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Nov 15, 2013 3:54:52 GMT -5
Look! Another evil rp critique! +1 Please keep things constructive and convey a point that bolsters the conversation - Comments such as this can fuel hostility and be toxic to the community. |
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Post by ID10Tango on Nov 15, 2013 4:15:25 GMT -5
Please keep things constructive and convey a point that bolsters the conversation - Comments such as this can fuel hostility and be toxic to the community. Oh ok. What I meant to say was: Just play a good person and you'll never get executed...unless you're Slate. Problem solved. |
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Post by Malignant Naricissism on Nov 15, 2013 4:34:31 GMT -5
Oh ok. What I meant to say was: Just play a good person and you'll never get executed...unless you're Slate. Problem solved. Well considering that the good alignment, and lawful to some extent, generally means not committing murder, it's no surprise that evil characters tend to break the law and get executed more often. Somewhat like in real life how if you get convicted of murder, odds are you're not a very good person (assuming you're guilty). |
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Post by ID10Tango on Nov 15, 2013 4:42:04 GMT -5
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Nov 15, 2013 5:01:24 GMT -5
Good people can be executed too, it just requires a certain dose of idiocy or a really bad choice(or series of them), these things do happen although with a good person its a much more rare occurrence this will be the case as opposed to their evil counter-part. A character who is consistently good can still commit evil acts now and then and yet still remain good. Execution is reserved for the most serious of offenders - If you want to murder people in town then you're likely going to get caught. What happens if you get caught in town? You will likely be executed. What happens if you murder someone outside of town and don't get caught? You likely WON'T be executed. It's profound...I know, but it just might work. These posts are not made in an attempt to slam any individual or group but obviously the purpose for this was derived from past moments on FRC when certain players decided to make certain choices and watched their characters head *emote-roll* for it.
And for the record, Slate can't die period...he is the 23rd manifestation of the demi-god-son Cronetheus, not to be confused with Cromethulus, and will rule the 51st plane and on of the Abyss with Kira Pashar on his left arm and the relic of DOOM in his right hand - Frubo's gee-tar
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Post by Rane on Nov 15, 2013 5:13:22 GMT -5
I agree with dm mal and also, will add that there should be a penalty for those good players who are killed by bad players in the woods.... Like those who are executed in town.... See if kross caught you and killed you in the underdark. He didnt just walk away... He probably disposed of you..... Hence an execution.... It goes both ways.
That being said, i play both good and evil... Mainly neutral now, and I still see no real issue. In fact the evnt that probably brought about this thread was mobius's big escape. I remember a dm being present, and i remember a war wizard watching every single detail from on top of the hill. I did not participate in this event. I sat back and watched, and saw noone IGNORE npc's, and noone just randomly kill people. Everyone got paid to do it and the fight actually started, when a large group of good adventurers initiated pvp in town under the orders of a guard for 1000 lions.
Lol there is no issue there, and there is no issue with execution
Side note: bentin should lose his job for hiring a mercenary group of adventurers to kill an unarmed/subdued man.
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Post by ID10Tango on Nov 15, 2013 5:14:42 GMT -5
According to the votes from the favorite alignment thread approximately 70% of the player base will hardly ever be subjected to the suggested changes simply due to the RP for their alignment, while 30% of the player base have a much higher chance of encountering an execution in their characters lifetime. That's assuming that the 30% doesn't include characters who only chase after DM created LG NPC's and call themselves evil...but who actually take action against other PC's. That's why I keep bringing up the whole "it's pointed at a group" subject...
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Nov 15, 2013 5:31:39 GMT -5
According to the votes from the favorite alignment thread approximately 70% of the player base will hardly ever be subjected to the suggested changes simply due to the RP for their alignment, while 30% of the player base have a much higher chance of encountering an execution in their characters lifetime. That's assuming that the 30% doesn't include characters who only chase after DM created LG NPC's and call themselves evil...but who actually take action against other PC's. That's why I keep bringing up the whole "it's pointed at a group" subject... To be fair, evil characters have far more rp advantages in the big picture than most good or neutral characters do. Evils can consistently lie, cheat, steal, and murder without any kind of penalty so as long as their actions never come to light beyond those who are either allies or simply don't care and won't tell(selfish neutrals and other evils). As for the 70% of people who might not have to deal with the changes of execution, they will have other things to endure such as putting up with all of the advantages you have over them as an evil character, provided you play them out to their full potential. The only real risks you face are with the law or other people finding out what you're about, if they do then execution just might be your just reward but even so, its an extreme scenario and most crimes don't even lead to execution they mostly just lead to jail time and possibly a fine. You really have to do something extreme to get executed...it shouldn't be all that hard to avoid entirely, for anyone. |
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Post by megascorpion on Nov 15, 2013 8:37:02 GMT -5
According to the votes from the favorite alignment thread approximately 70% of the player base will hardly ever be subjected to the suggested changes simply due to the RP for their alignment, while 30% of the player base have a much higher chance of encountering an execution in their characters lifetime. That's assuming that the 30% doesn't include characters who only chase after DM created LG NPC's and call themselves evil...but who actually take action against other PC's. That's why I keep bringing up the whole "it's pointed at a group" subject... To be fair, evil characters have far more rp advantages in the big picture than most good or neutral characters do. Evils can consistently lie, cheat, steal, and murder without any kind of penalty so as long as their actions never come to light beyond those who are either allies or simply don't care and won't tell(selfish neutrals and other evils). As for the 70% of people who might not have to deal with the changes of execution, they will have other things to endure such as putting up with all of the advantages you have over them as an evil character, provided you play them out to their full potential. The only real risks you face are with the law or other people finding out what you're about, if they do then execution just might be your just reward but even so, its an extreme scenario and most crimes don't even lead to execution they mostly just lead to jail time and possibly a fine. You really have to do something extreme to get executed...it shouldn't be all that hard to avoid entirely, for anyone. Isn't all of this sort of the point of the alignments? And no, a lawful good character can lie steal murder and cheat 'exactly' as much as an evil character without penalty, but they might turn evil or chaotic while doing it, is that a penalty now? The only exception is the paladin, but uh, isn't that again, the whole point? Being a paladin is supposed to be hard. Good characters are not the only victims of evil plots nor is the formal punishment the only bad thing that happens to a character getting caught for committing a crime, no one sensible is going to want to even stand close to someone who got caught pickpocketing for example. Additionally, people really need to get over any kind of "evil vs. good" idea and start taking things on a case by case basis. If you're playing a character who refuses to steal and cheat, of course you're going to have less money than someone who steals and cheats on a regular basis but also happens to never get caught. Not to mention that there are evil characters who won't lie or cheat or steal as well. Placing OOC penalties on alignments gets quite silly because that really doesn't tell very much about the character, and even less about the player. You really have to do something extreme to get executed...it shouldn't be all that hard to avoid entirely, for anyone. I don't think anyone here have been asking 'why' their character was executed, or complained that they were, we're discussing the penalties of execution here. How to make people treat the fear of death properly, along with the rules to make people do so on a server without permadeath. It is hardly unimaginable that say, a harper spy will reveal the evil cabal's devious plots and evil deeds which gets them marched to the chopping block, Not all possible executions come from evil characters shouting their crimes in Bentin's Face. So please don't speak as if the only way a character is going to get executed is if their player is stupid. Besides, shouldn't we also take into account the possibility of someone being say, framed for a murder they did not commit? As for this topic being aimed against a group, it should be, it should be aimed against those not treating the executions and deaths of their characters seriously. And those who cannot handle the lack of Perma-death responsibly. Dying from a random monster is one thing, if your character is taken out by an assassin so they can't witness in the coming hearing, or if they are executed for their crimes, stay away until the hearing is over, let them be dead for a while to let things settle and whoever caught them to get a sense of victory, if people can't do these kinds of things on their own, I do think they should be enforced by the rules and the DM's. |
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Fenix
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Sleepless Golem, aka Kenny
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Posts: 2,183
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Post by Fenix on Nov 15, 2013 8:45:12 GMT -5
RP my way because its the way that makes sense and dms should be better Thats essentoally what I grasped in all that. |
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Post by megascorpion on Nov 15, 2013 9:20:04 GMT -5
RP my way because its the way that makes sense and dms should be better Thats essentoally what I grasped in all that. I feel the detriment for being executed should definitely be more severe. And I do agree with something like not playing the character for a time. If you are executed, you're not going to just be instantly raised and prance around greatgaunt 15 minutes later. Chances are that Cleric would likely be executed too because they are essentially committing a crime against the crown as well. I feel it makes more sense that if somebody is taking the risk to raise someone, its going to be on the down low for quite some time, and they wont do it until things begin to settle. But yes if there is someone spying, I could see a greater penalty for the risk there too, but then we have to consider the OOC raise thing and the serverwide death penalties. ...How is my post any more "RP my way" than that one for example?  I am also completely incapable of understanding where you got the "DMs should be better" bit from  Care to clarify your problems with my post a bit so I can in turn clarify what I meant? Because I do not understand how you could gather either of those two statements from my post. |
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Post by Razgriz on Nov 15, 2013 9:35:31 GMT -5
I agree with dm mal and also, will add that there should be a penalty for those good players who are killed by bad players in the woods.... Like those who are executed in town.... See if kross caught you and killed you in the underdark. He didnt just walk away... He probably disposed of you..... Hence an execution.... It goes both ways. Ehm no. Their penalty is respawning and dying because there was no one else near to save them. The server rules clearly state that you cannot remain dead if you are not going to be saved and you cannot log out dead either. As you see they are forced to respawn by the rules if you don't want to give an OOC or IC raise. Now, Im going to to give you all evils ideas, but meh. Unless your evil PC provided an OOC/IC raise, emoted to drag their bodies to your lair and have them locked there for maybe a week and other things(if they agree to do so), they are free to decide what to do, perma or respawn. Your victims were not caught by the law, they were caught by you. The dead PCs should stay out of the action for some days and be good sports about it, but penalties for them no, not really. Penalties should be given to those that kill and are discovered time after time. If the guards or warwizards are still going to act the same, not caring if the PC in front of them has killed 20 people it then becomes silly and ridiculous. At some point the careless mass murderers should be considred enemies of the crown, and being executed should not mean "clearing your reputation", so you can go unoticed and do more killing again. |
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Nov 15, 2013 11:29:15 GMT -5
The reason why I think XP penalties should be higher is because good characters can't fend for themselves. They aren't allowed to hunt down known evils. Their isn't enough support from from dm's to help assist in putting down the bad guys. Good guys are relegated to being sitting ducks while evils are allowed to freely go about working on assassinations, planning their attacks and attacking in large numbers with huge force to put down anyone anywhere. If good characters have no option other than dying so that you could further your awesome evil story-line plot of being a murderer and super strong, in the process shaming and or disrupting said other players rp/character, you should be willing to take a significant XP/gp hit if you manage being found out.
I've mentioned this before to DMs about the helplessness of goodly types on various occasions. If the playing field was even, I'd have a different opinion on it, but since the playing field isn't even, I'm of mind that consequences should be much stiffer.
About the 10x respawn without losing a level, I miscalculated numbers but even still, the number doesn't lie too far off from having up to around 10 respawns a level, depending on your XP at the time. No character is going to chain executable crimes over and over again. Taking 1 respawn hit with the possibility of losing a level isnt even a penalty. Its a joke.
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Post by Grozer on Nov 15, 2013 12:00:28 GMT -5
The reason why I think XP penalties should be higher is because good characters can't fend for themselves. They aren't allowed to hunt down known evils. Their isn't enough support from from dm's to help assist in putting down the bad guys. Good guys are relegated to being sitting ducks while evils are allowed to freely go about working on assassinations, planning their attacks and attacking in large numbers with huge force to put down anyone anywhere. If good characters have no option other than dying so that you could further your awesome evil story-line plot of being a murderer and super strong, in the process shaming and or disrupting said other players rp/character, you should be willing to take a significant XP/gp hit if you manage being found out. I've mentioned this before to DMs about the helplessness of goodly types on various occasions. If the playing field was even, I'd have a different opinion on it, but since the playing field isn't even, I'm of mind that consequences should be much stiffer. About the 10x respawn without losing a level, I miscalculated numbers but even still, the number doesn't lie too far off from having up to around 10 respawns a level, depending on your XP at the time. No character is going to chain executable crimes over and over again. Taking 1 respawn hit with the possibility of losing a level isnt even a penalty. Its a joke. I see your point but one thing I will challenge here is the idea that a goodie... or any another PC for that matter cannot "hunt down known evils." While I agree they cannot do so in support of the Crown or the laws of the land there is nothing that I know that prevents them from doing exactly that. Would this make them vigilantes? Yes. Might they be considered violating the law themselves? Yes. But they could track down the known evil to some remote place and pounce and take them out without being seen by the "law". They wont be acting as an arm of the law and cannot arrest said person but they can act. Even more so where there is a bounty or the Crown is actively seeking said PC they actually can do much more. Granted I know the paladiny type probably cannot do this but I am talking in general here. I dont like always personalizing things but in this case I can definitely say Ranan dealt with it a lot. Manshin and several others were quite good at sabotaging Ranan's plots and or hunting him down from time to time. Heck there was a great RP bit where Manshin followed Thraden and Ranan into a certain battle taking them both out by himself (because they were weakened from the fight but whatever ). In addition, I would say the evil hunter types could be as creative as any evil using disguise to "hit" a known evil in a town or well populated area and get away with taking down a criminal without being identified. |
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Post by Grozer on Nov 15, 2013 12:24:55 GMT -5
To be fair, evil characters have far more rp advantages in the big picture than most good or neutral characters do. Evils can consistently lie, cheat, steal, and murder without any kind of penalty so as long as their actions never come to light beyond those who are either allies or simply don't care and won't tell(selfish neutrals and other evils). As for the 70% of people who might not have to deal with the changes of execution, they will have other things to endure such as putting up with all of the advantages you have over them as an evil character, provided you play them out to their full potential. The only real risks you face are with the law or other people finding out what you're about, if they do then execution just might be your just reward but even so, its an extreme scenario and most crimes don't even lead to execution they mostly just lead to jail time and possibly a fine. You really have to do something extreme to get executed...it shouldn't be all that hard to avoid entirely, for anyone. I have a difficult time accepting the statement "evil characters have far more RP advantages in the big picture". I fail to see how the ability to lie, steal, murder gives them more advantages? Besides anyone can do this, they may choose not to but any PC has the option. I fully get that it will dependent on the PCs motivations (I dont agree that alignment dictates actions but that is another topic). On top of that there is a substantial list of disadvantages to RP for a villain (purposely changed out evil PC for villain) that far outweigh any advantages. |
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Post by Trollfiend on Nov 15, 2013 14:12:56 GMT -5
I see your point but one thing I will challenge here is the idea that a goodie... or any another PC for that matter cannot "hunt down known evils." While I agree they cannot do so in support of the Crown or the laws of the land there is nothing that I know that prevents them from doing exactly that. Would this make them vigilantes? Yes. Might they be considered violating the law themselves? Yes. But they could track down the known evil to some remote place and pounce and take them out without being seen by the "law". They wont be acting as an arm of the law and cannot arrest said person but they can act. Even more so where there is a bounty or the Crown is actively seeking said PC they actually can do much more. Granted I know the paladiny type probably cannot do this but I am talking in general here. I dont like always personalizing things but in this case I can definitely say Ranan dealt with it a lot. Manshin and several others were quite good at sabotaging Ranan's plots and or hunting him down from time to time. Heck there was a great RP bit where Manshin followed Thraden and Ranan into a certain battle taking them both out by himself (because they were weakened from the fight but whatever ). In addition, I would say the evil hunter types could be as creative as any evil using disguise to "hit" a known evil in a town or well populated area and get away with taking down a criminal without being identified. Grozer, I know that no long time evil has been tracked down and killed and blamed and stalked and harassed than you have. You have my respect and you always will. It has been done in the past where evils have been actually protected by the staff from huntings. I don't know if you were around for all the Cyric killings where they torched one temple after another and left tons of evidence at each scene over a period of months. They destroyed at least one temple in each city and murdered a great number of PCs in surprise attacks leaving their Cyric banners everywhere. The leader of the Cyric church was well known to be the leader and many of his followers were known. Garistan was told not to hunt any of them down because there wasn't enough evidence to convict anyone. No one was able to go after them. We were told that it would be metagaming if we did so. It wouldn't simply be going vigilante against the law, it would be against server rules. It was then that I stopped caring about who did what unless they went after my PCs personally. |
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Post by Grozer on Nov 15, 2013 14:56:19 GMT -5
I see your point but one thing I will challenge here is the idea that a goodie... or any another PC for that matter cannot "hunt down known evils." While I agree they cannot do so in support of the Crown or the laws of the land there is nothing that I know that prevents them from doing exactly that. Would this make them vigilantes? Yes. Might they be considered violating the law themselves? Yes. But they could track down the known evil to some remote place and pounce and take them out without being seen by the "law". They wont be acting as an arm of the law and cannot arrest said person but they can act. Even more so where there is a bounty or the Crown is actively seeking said PC they actually can do much more. Granted I know the paladiny type probably cannot do this but I am talking in general here. I dont like always personalizing things but in this case I can definitely say Ranan dealt with it a lot. Manshin and several others were quite good at sabotaging Ranan's plots and or hunting him down from time to time. Heck there was a great RP bit where Manshin followed Thraden and Ranan into a certain battle taking them both out by himself (because they were weakened from the fight but whatever ). In addition, I would say the evil hunter types could be as creative as any evil using disguise to "hit" a known evil in a town or well populated area and get away with taking down a criminal without being identified. Grozer, I know that no long time evil has been tracked down and killed and blamed and stalked and harassed than you have. You have my respect and you always will. It has been done in the past where evils have been actually protected by the staff from huntings. I don't know if you were around for all the Cyric killings where they torched one temple after another and left tons of evidence at each scene over a period of months. They destroyed at least one temple in each city and murdered a great number of PCs in surprise attacks leaving their Cyric banners everywhere. The leader of the Cyric church was well known to be the leader and many of his followers were known. Garistan was told not to hunt any of them down because there wasn't enough evidence to convict anyone. No one was able to go after them. We were told that it would be metagaming if we did so. It wouldn't simply be going vigilante against the law, it would be against server rules. It was then that I stopped caring about who did what unless they went after my PCs personally. Interesting and I would have backed off myself as well. However as you know I am opinionated and would have complained had I been told the same because technically it is NOT against server rules from what I can tell and if I am wrong someone on the staff please correct me. Besides part of the fun of playing a villain is having that confrontation, albeit its more fun if its not just a simple PvP fight. Obviously I dont know the context of the situation and perhaps the DM was merely trying to control the "neverending cycle of PvP" as I refer to it, whereby the back and forth PvP killings for 'retribution' never end. I dont know there may be a good reason. Either case there has been a lot of change on FRC and the few DMs I have interacted with and spoken with seem to be much more neutral and do not lean to one side than was my perception in the past. So I suggest that this 'ruling' might be looked at differently. Granted its not always fun to be hunted down as an villain PC but done in moderation it can lead to some really good RP. |
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Post by Aseanamous on Nov 15, 2013 15:27:24 GMT -5
Grozer, I know that no long time evil has been tracked down and killed and blamed and stalked and harassed than you have. You have my respect and you always will. It has been done in the past where evils have been actually protected by the staff from huntings. I don't know if you were around for all the Cyric killings where they torched one temple after another and left tons of evidence at each scene over a period of months. They destroyed at least one temple in each city and murdered a great number of PCs in surprise attacks leaving their Cyric banners everywhere. The leader of the Cyric church was well known to be the leader and many of his followers were known. Garistan was told not to hunt any of them down because there wasn't enough evidence to convict anyone. No one was able to go after them. We were told that it would be metagaming if we did so. It wouldn't simply be going vigilante against the law, it would be against server rules. It was then that I stopped caring about who did what unless they went after my PCs personally. Hah, it's funny someone actually remembers that. I was a part of that on my first character here on FRC and it was a blast. I thought it was the way PvP should be handled. Our characters never revealed ourselves as openly Cyrists, but we did eventually get caught. In fact, my character was chased down and "PvPed". By that I mean he was subdued and not killed. Then, with DM supervision, he had mind affecting spells placed upon him and he revealed some names/secret locations about our group. Our group left clues at each "crime scene" so that people knew to fear us, without actually knowing who we were... I felt that that's how non-stupid evil should do it. In the end though, being a group of Cyrists... there was an inner struggle for power and the group ended up attacking each other and disbanding. Was great RP, in my mind, and was completely fun. No one got executed, but a lot of plot development happened. And no, we were completely open to PvP and we didn't tell any DMs to give us any special OOC protection at all. We wanted to just have a lot of fun and stay completely IC. Yet, ICly, there wasn't enough evidence to convict us. All anyone knew was that Cyrists were the cause of the murders and so Cyrists were banned from towns completely. Therefore, we played it smart and never revealed ourselves openly as being Cyrists. You can't kill someone within the IC law just because you think they're evil and/or a follower of Cyric... there has to be IC proof. You can, however, kill them outside of the IC law for whatever reason you want and still not be breaking the OOC laws (As long as you have a good enough IC reason). |
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Post by Lady Frost on Nov 15, 2013 15:47:42 GMT -5
The reason why I think XP penalties should be higher is because good characters can't fend for themselves. They aren't allowed to hunt down known evils. Their isn't enough support from from dm's to help assist in putting down the bad guys. Good guys are relegated to being sitting ducks while evils are allowed to freely go about working on assassinations, planning their attacks and attacking in large numbers with huge force to put down anyone anywhere. If good characters have no option other than dying so that you could further your awesome evil story-line plot of being a murderer and super strong, in the process shaming and or disrupting said other players rp/character, you should be willing to take a significant XP/gp hit if you manage being found out. I've mentioned this before to DMs about the helplessness of goodly types on various occasions. If the playing field was even, I'd have a different opinion on it, but since the playing field isn't even, I'm of mind that consequences should be much stiffer. About the 10x respawn without losing a level, I miscalculated numbers but even still, the number doesn't lie too far off from having up to around 10 respawns a level, depending on your XP at the time. No character is going to chain executable crimes over and over again. Taking 1 respawn hit with the possibility of losing a level isnt even a penalty. Its a joke. I disagree. I think the field is even on both sides. Evil can't kill off goods, just as goods can't kill off evils. Both are free to hunt each other, sure. Hopefully if one kills the other, the other respects that and bails out of whatever situation the PvP was for. But in the end good PC's are just as impossible to get rid of. Because you personally may have chosen a PC that's shoehorned into supposing to act a certain way and follow a certain code doesn't mean the overall situation is similar. As well, some PC's have been working for years to build their "surrounding protections and influences" and expecting to jump in and bring them down and "win" in a conflict or even a few months may not be possible. The same can be said for the other way around. A long term, good PC (who has spent the time to RP and gain it) can have a significant influence and power that the evils are going to have an incredible time dealing with. |
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Post by Lady Frost on Nov 15, 2013 16:03:45 GMT -5
To be fair, evil characters have far more rp advantages in the big picture than most good or neutral characters do. Evils can consistently lie, cheat, steal, and murder without any kind of penalty so as long as their actions never come to light beyond those who are either allies or simply don't care and won't tell(selfish neutrals and other evils). As for the 70% of people who might not have to deal with the changes of execution, they will have other things to endure such as putting up with all of the advantages you have over them as an evil character, provided you play them out to their full potential. The only real risks you face are with the law or other people finding out what you're about, if they do then execution just might be your just reward but even so, its an extreme scenario and most crimes don't even lead to execution they mostly just lead to jail time and possibly a fine. You really have to do something extreme to get executed...it shouldn't be all that hard to avoid entirely, for anyone. I have a difficult time accepting the statement "evil characters have far more RP advantages in the big picture". I fail to see how the ability to lie, steal, murder gives them more advantages? Besides anyone can do this, they may choose not to but any PC has the option. I fully get that it will dependent on the PCs motivations (I dont agree that alignment dictates actions but that is another topic). On top of that there is a substantial list of disadvantages to RP for a villain (purposely changed out evil PC for villain) that far outweigh any advantages. I actually agree with Mal's statement. Evil doesn't have to account for many things that goods do to keep their "good" alignment. Evil, to me, has more to gain, and as a balance, more to lose. They do have RP disadvantages, but most of those come from failures someplace, usually letting someone know they're evil or committing evil acts. Bribery, blackmail, extortion, lying, cheating, stealing, murder, and on; those, especially, in RP situations, are huge benefits, in my opinion. But as was said, they come at the expense of being an outcast, being hated, being hunted/attacked, and being executed. _Added Edit_ (While anyone can actually do these things, I think that's a technicality as we know nearly all won't because their actions show them to have a good alignment.) I also firmly agree that alignment should not dictate actions. Actions should come from personality, and that should determine alignment. |
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Post by Pithirendar on Nov 15, 2013 16:17:51 GMT -5
'Evil' pc's don't just kill 'good' either. There are those other pesky 'evils' they sometimes have to worry about also. It's not just about 'good' v 'evil' and really this isn't a debate about who has it harder. There are advantages and disadvantages to every alignment/class/race.
It's not about PVP either. That's a completely separate topic.
IF a pc commits enough horrendous crimes AND they are caught by the crown on a server where there is no permadeath (I'm certainly not advocating for this) then the consequences, I believe, should be more tangible than what they are. As for what they should be changed to. I don't know but I've mentioned my thoughts earlier on in the thread. I think there have been some good suggestions and points raised so far.
I'd like to see more suggestions about what people think would be good IC consequences after someone has been executed by the crown. Particularly for repeat offenders.
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Post by Rane on Nov 15, 2013 16:38:29 GMT -5
Its no fun in my opinion playing the evil guy who gives the good players nothing.
You end up roleplaying with yourself lol. Its a cold world out there all alone... Killing npc's, in an empty bed.... *snaps out of it* heh....
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Post by arisnorman1 on Nov 15, 2013 16:53:11 GMT -5
its so true tho.
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Post by blinddevil on Nov 15, 2013 17:16:14 GMT -5
'Evil' pc's don't just kill 'good' either. There are those other pesky 'evils' they sometimes have to worry about also. It's not just about 'good' v 'evil' and really this isn't a debate about who has it harder. There are advantages and disadvantages to every alignment/class/race. It's not about PVP either. That's a completely separate topic. IF a pc commits enough horrendous crimes AND they are caught by the crown on a server where there is no permadeath (I'm certainly not advocating for this) then the consequences, I believe, should be more tangible than what they are. As for what they should be changed to. I don't know but I've mentioned my thoughts earlier on in the thread. I think there have been some good suggestions and points raised so far. I'd like to see more suggestions about what people think would be good IC consequences after someone has been executed by the crown. Particularly for repeat offenders. I stated earlier that I think XP penalties are not the answer. De-leveling is not the answer. I think the answer is to create IC consequences that deepen immersion for everyone. A player who has a character who is executed by a DM is, in reality, receiving a DM award. The award is the DMs time and attention. I have run executions as a DM, and doing them right requires time and planning. DMs usually allow for a role-played trial and other behind the scenes RP opportunities. My last execution took up at least 8-10 hours of my time in planning and in game RP. That kind of DM attention is a REWARD, and anyone who gets that kind of attention should be grateful for it. That being said, after the execution takes place, it’s the player of the executed character's responsibility to RP consequences and not just jump back into the fray like nothing happened. As others have stated: Your character was just executed, waltzing back into town a day or two later like nothing happened is simply poor RP. Suffice to say many players do a very good job of RPing IC consequences on their own, some do a crappy job. Therefore I think executions should result in a progressive IC penalty that make more sense from a game world perspective. For instance: 1st Execution: Character banned from towns in Cormyr for 30 days. 2nd Execution: Character banned from towns in Cormyr indefinitely 3rd Execution: Character banned from towns and permanent bounty on character. These are just suggestions - others have suggested scripting such as on Prisoners of the mist, where the character is given a token that makes NPC guards hostile. I think that’s a great idea - but I am not sure if the server admin team wants to go that far. Anyway - in summary - Being executed is a privilege, and should be a great opportunity for RP hooks for many characters. I believe the consequences should be IC not OOC. |
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Nov 15, 2013 17:30:52 GMT -5
'Evil' pc's don't just kill 'good' either. There are those other pesky 'evils' they sometimes have to worry about also. It's not just about 'good' v 'evil' and really this isn't a debate about who has it harder. There are advantages and disadvantages to every alignment/class/race. It's not about PVP either. That's a completely separate topic. IF a pc commits enough horrendous crimes AND they are caught by the crown on a server where there is no permadeath (I'm certainly not advocating for this) then the consequences, I believe, should be more tangible than what they are. As for what they should be changed to. I don't know but I've mentioned my thoughts earlier on in the thread. I think there have been some good suggestions and points raised so far. I'd like to see more suggestions about what people think would be good IC consequences after someone has been executed by the crown. Particularly for repeat offenders. I stated earlier that I think XP penalties are not the answer. De-leveling is not the answer. I think the answer is to create IC consequences that deepen immersion for everyone. A player who has a character who is executed by a DM is, in reality, receiving a DM award. The award is the DMs time and attention. I have run executions as a DM, and doing them right requires time and planning. DMs usually allow for a role-played trial and other behind the scenes RP opportunities. My last execution took up at least 8-10 hours of my time in planning and in game RP. That kind of DM attention is a REWARD, and anyone who gets that kind of attention should be grateful for it. That being said, after the execution takes place, it’s the player of the executed character's responsibility to RP consequences and not just jump back into the fray like nothing happened. As others have stated: Your character was just executed, waltzing back into town a day or two later like nothing happened is simply poor RP. Suffice to say many players do a very good job of RPing IC consequences on their own, some do a crappy job. Therefore I think executions should result in a progressive IC penalty that make more sense from a game world perspective. For instance: 1st Execution: Character banned from towns in Cormyr for 30 days. 2nd Execution: Character banned from towns in Cormyr indefinitely 3rd Execution: Character banned from towns and permanent bounty on character. These are just suggestions - others have suggested scripting such as on Prisoners of the mist, where the character is given a token that makes NPC guards hostile. I think that’s a great idea - but I am not sure if the server admin team wants to go that far. Anyway - in summary - Being executed is a privilege, and should be a great opportunity for RP hooks for many characters. I believe the consequences should be IC not OOC. You make some very valid points and you offer some very good suggestions in terms of ideas we could use going forward in order to improve the way things are RP'ed out after a crime or execution is committed. The only part of this I would have a hard time with is saying that an execution is a reward, not every person will see things this way ooc even if their character had it coming. Perhaps the person ooc is mad because their characters plot didn't come to fruition the way they had hoped or they were one upped by their adversary who they really wanted to trounce. I'm not saying your perspective is wrong because its not but I think each person whether they are good at rolling with the RP or not are going to have different feelings about this whole topic. Some will thrive on this kind of RP and not mind having their character out of the mix for a month, for others its going to be hard and maybe even somewhat depressing in an ooc sense. From my personal perspective I would not run an event or perform an execution with the mindset that I was giving Mr. or Mrs. X a reward simply because I was giving them attention. In my mind a reward is the xp you get after the quest is finished or that shiny new item that adds some flavor to playing a character but my attention alone, not so much. I'm sure there are different views on this but for the record, that's where I stand. |
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I am also completely incapable of understanding where you got the "DMs should be better" bit from 
Care to clarify your problems with my post a bit so I can in turn clarify what I meant? Because I do not understand how you could gather either of those two statements from my post.
