Execution Penalties

[Fenix]

Nov 16, 2013 2:59:45 GMT -5 magiuss said:

Nov 15, 2013 17:16:14 GMT -5 blinddevil said:

I stated earlier that I think XP penalties are not the answer. De-leveling is not the answer. I think the answer is to create IC consequences that deepen immersion for everyone. A player who has a character who is executed by a DM is, in reality, receiving a DM award. The award is the DMs time and attention. I have run executions as a DM, and doing them right requires time and planning. DMs usually allow for a role-played trial and other behind the scenes RP opportunities. My last execution took up at least 8-10 hours of my time in planning and in game RP. That kind of DM attention is a REWARD, and anyone who gets that kind of attention should be grateful for it.

That being said, after the execution takes place, it’s the player of the executed character's responsibility to RP consequences and not just jump back into the fray like nothing happened. As others have stated: Your character was just executed, waltzing back into town a day or two later like nothing happened is simply poor RP. Suffice to say many players do a very good job of RPing IC consequences on their own, some do a crappy job. Therefore I think executions should result in a progressive IC penalty that make more sense from a game world perspective. For instance:

1st Execution: Character banned from towns in Cormyr for 30 days.
2nd Execution: Character banned from towns in Cormyr indefinitely
3rd Execution: Character banned from towns and permanent bounty on character.

These are just suggestions - others have suggested scripting such as on Prisoners of the mist, where the character is given a token that makes NPC guards hostile. I think that’s a great idea - but I am not sure if the server admin team wants to go that far.

Anyway - in summary - Being executed is a privilege, and should be a great opportunity for RP hooks for many characters. I believe the consequences should be IC not OOC.

as I stated earlier.. By given these people a Token so Npcs will attack them Removes every chance of Rp disguise's.. and will take the RP out of the hands of those who are wanted.

in my opinion it is not the right wayto handle it.. the higher jail time seems more fitting OR..

if the Dm's can Ensure a token on the wanted people they need to Code making bluff checks all the time for guards to see if they are fooled by disguisses

In theory coding a similar token that forces a defender faction until a bluff check is failed, or forcing guard hostility is subdued until the next rest or such may not be entirely difficult.

However if youve committed a severe crime in real life where youre executed or have a bounty, and youre coming back to stand casually in the place where you just killed fifteen people, you probably have a death wish. Its an entirely suicidal idea to do so. Im not saying its not or shouldnt be done, but its a consequence.



It does open opportunity for creating some types of lawless towns however. Even if maybe a player worked with a dm and other players to start one. A place for convicts or outcasts to go when theyre rejected from all else

[Trollfiend]

Nov 16, 2013 8:13:47 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

Nov 16, 2013 3:13:20 GMT -5 magiuss said:

+1

Quoting you cause I don't know where the quote you quoted could be quoted from.

PvP and PvE (unless under dm control, which could then be considered PvP) have different implications than dying to random npc orc. Its two different arenas.

If you die to an orc you're back up right away. You suffer a respawn and 30 minute memory lapse. There isn't any lasting effect on your character. If you die to a player you have a stain on your character. "Hey, you're the girl that got punched to death by Mobius, right?". There are different implications when dying to another player. Slate (when he comes back in full force) will be calling himself the dragon and phoenix (purposely spelled in that manner) slayer for the rest of his days and telling the story at every chance. All for a measly 800 XP. Hell, I could have been back in GG the very next day and done it but it wasn't against my better judgment. I chose to penalize my character so stayed off him for a month because the current penalty is doodoo.

You've never RP'ed a PvE scenario? I'm sorry.

Surviving an epic battle is something that should be boasted about and celebrated.

"Barkeep! A round for everyone and your biggest mugs filled with your best ale for us; for we have looked death in the eyes and lived to tell the tale!"

I've seen a failed expedition retire to a bar to drink away the burns and broken bones caused by a total party wipe of a great wyrm red dragon. There are only other implications if you want there to be. You're not supposed to respawn and run right back into another fight after dying in a dungeon. You're encouraged to relax a bit and tend your wounds. Also, the 30 minute memory lapse only applies to PvP, not PvE. It's there to protect the knowledge you were killed to prevent from spreading. Like when someone sees you doing something evil, you kill the person and dump the body- no one can tell on you now. It's just a rule put in place to work with the respawn ability we have on this game, nothing more.

There are rules on this server stating that no one can ever force another player to permakill his or her PC. That will never change and it shouldn't. There should never be forced permakill in PvP unless there's the very same thing in PvE. I know people are going to complain about random numbers, or dungeon scaling causing you to not always know what you're getting yourself into after gaining a level or two since the last time you entered that place, or perhaps lag, but those very same things can happen in PvP as well.

They should BOTH be RP'ed. That's what I was getting at with my post- people grind dungeons and RP player interactions. It's like dungeons don't even COUNT as things to RP. They're nothing more than XP and GP so that you can get back to town and RP some more.

It shouldn't be like that.

[StabbingNirvana]

If what you got out of my post was that I don't RP PvE deaths, then I'm sorry.

What my post was getting at is that PvP and PvE are different and along with them come different responses and effects. There's also different rules for each. If all penalties should be the same across the board regardless of PvE or PvP, why am I suffering a 30 minute memory loss when I die to a player? Death is death right? Why am I allowed to attack an npc Banite on sight and not a PC Banite? Banites are Banites... right? Until consistency is brought in line across the board, each should have different sets of rules like they do now.

This will be my last post in this thread since I think I made my stance clear so here's the obligatory conclusion: In conclusion, executions are supposed to give closure. They aren't simply dying to another players hands. The story is supposed to end but because there's no perma-killing allowed, its allowed to continue. 100xp a level punishment doesn't cut it nor does it discourage committing acts that could be punished by execution. There is a hole in the system that needs to be patched up because the severity of an execution judgment isn't being taken seriously because the penalty for it isn't serious.

[Razgriz]

The penalties are fine, what we need is to make them matter. We need all of the discovered mass murderers to be treated as murderers. After several executions it should be clear to even the worst warwizard or guard that some individuals will not stop or will not change ever.

Right now the law protects known murderers as much as it protects those who do not even get involved in any conflict. After say the third execution, the law should just stop protecting certain characters and do not even listen to their version of what happened (Even if their version is the truth) The odds should be against them for what they did in the past, it does not matter if you were executed, if you stil live after the execution then it means that it is not over. Drastic yes, but to me it seems as if each time an execution takes place, the ones getting memory loss are the warwizards, GG guards and the purple dragon knights NPCs.

Executions should remain as something serious, they should not be seen as a free pass to reset the reputation bar with the legal authority of the realm.


"I was exectuted by the guards, you cannot do anything about it"

--Yes, maybe I cannot do anything and maybe you are right, but that is because the law is treating me as if I was as bad as you still are.--

[Charon's Claw]

From my experience making the OOC penalties harsher simply means that no one makes evil RP. It's a double edged sword. I believe in RP consequences. Death is death, you die from being beheaded by a monster 100xp/level. You die from being beheaded by a Crown official, it should be 100xp/level. However if a monster kills you, he may tell all his monster friends about you. Oh well, you're being hunted by monsters. If a Crown official kills you for a reason, why he/she killed you should stick in the same way I believe. IC consequences for IC actions. The OOC penalty shouldn't be a factor. It's erroneous, in my opinion, to increase it.

If you want death to be feared make an IC consequence that will stick. XP loss is, ultimately, just a nuisance and can be regained at different levels of rapidity by different individuals. For some it's a game breaker b/c they don't have as much time as others, although it's difficult to argue with an IC consequence for an IC action if appropriate. So I agree most with the post above mine I suppose.

Edit: I suppose I should say inflated xp loss is more a punishment to the player, when punishing the -character- should be the priority. Ain't the player that's evil, tis the character!

[Deleted]

I think that a person should be permanently outlawed and not protected by law anymore after the third execution, as Merc suggested, but I also think that the server should have more places that evil PC's can congregate and gain supplies. Then maybe sensible penalties wouldn't necessarily mean people wouldn't do evil RP.

[FORSETIS]

Well I think... in short.. that all evil players should be banned for 2 months. See how fun it is without any conflict then!!!!! *cries*

But really.. why punish people who are only trying to create story?

*didnt read every post in this thread, sorry if I repeated something someone already said, dont hate me*

[Rane]

Throws pie at butcher. Teleports!

[quelunia]

Ya, Forskin is on to something.... lol. All evils, take a month off of instigating and intrigue. Consolidate and see were the server is then.bored and no new threads.....

[Razgriz]

Im just saying that executions should matter more beyond the death of the character. We want PCs scared of being executed. Why should an execution count as having your past sins and crimes forgiven by the law when you are clearly showing little interest in change?

I don't theink they should be banned form towns, simply because that would be unfair, but if someone is going to play a killer and then is dicovered, well next time try another approach or wait for the best moment to strike.

[Malignant Naricissism]

To be fair, half the pvp I see on this server involves coming out of invisibility and attacking with no roleplay before hand, and leaving it so that the characters involved don't even remember the attack, which is pretty short of roleplay and intrigue.

[FORSETIS]

Nov 17, 2013 20:29:44 GMT -5 quelunia said:

Ya, Forskin is on to something.... lol. All evils, take a month off of instigating and intrigue. Consolidate and see were the server is then.bored and no new threads.....

I hate you.

[Rane]

Nov 17, 2013 20:56:29 GMT -5 FORSETIS said:

Nov 17, 2013 20:29:44 GMT -5 quelunia said:

Ya, Forskin is on to something.... lol. All evils, take a month off of instigating and intrigue. Consolidate and see were the server is then.bored and no new threads.....

I hate you.

LOL

[bloodalchemist]

Sigh, that just made me wanna facepalm so damn hard. Maybe I am misunderstanding the OP and almost the entirety of the thread and the last few related to it. However, im going to attempt to lay out in simple terms what the point is.

We don't want there to be no evil, I play almost exclusively evil and so do a few who also commented on this thread! We would like there to be more weight to evil actions. Right now evil just runs free *cues benny hill theme music once again* without any real curb. Now, this is ok in certain circumstances, in certain regions or corrupt governments. It makes sense, and it can lead to good rp! I believe it! Has it on cormyr? Not to my knowledge, and apparently from the frequency and length of these threads, a lot of people are also missing out on some of the stellar rp going on behind the scenes. Running in invisible or riding in on horse-back invisible (yes, we won't hear your warhorse running from a couple hundred yards away hurr durr) is not roleplay. It is not intrigue. It's griefing. Maybe on the shallow end of the pool, but it is not roleplay. It doesn't contribute to any sort of plot or story, it is some one going out of their way to make sure the roleplay does not happen.

But since playing here this has changed for me. I avoid pvp, I avoid interactions with a lot of players, simply because I know if my character disagrees at all with their actions my character will eat a respawn. No roleplay, no story, just eat a respawn, or be lucky enough to get a raise then walk over to the nearest official and whine about how i was murdered but now im ok and please do something. That's what the roleplay has been. *claps* Fantastic. Stellar, exemplary, please do give me some more! You wonder why people want harsher punishment for pvp on this server, because some of us are tired of eating random respawns with little to no rp involved. SO now, there is just a list of people i dont bother acknowledging icly, because I know the best i can expect is to say something then eat a random respawn in a few days, or to simply be ignored. Thanks for the roleplay guys.

Fine, I agree that an increased exp penalty is not the right choice, it might only increase the popularity of this sort of 'rp'; doing everything one possibly can to kill any character that yours does not like in a way that guarantees you cannot lose, you cannot be caught and cannot be executed. I've played this game for a decade, playing only 1-2 good aligned characters, nearly all of them neutral or evil. I enjoy having pvp as an option, some roleplay inevitability leads to it and thats ok! I've won some, lost a lot, even at times had characters permadeathed by simple mistakes of letting the wrong bit of info slip to the wrong character. Even the complete and total loss of a character has been enjoyable when a story was created leading up to and during those events.

Yes once again I've lost my temper on a thread about evils roleplay, but I am tired of the trollish response to these discussions of "why you no like evil rp? Oh it must be because you lost!" Cause as it stands, im tired of wasting my time roleplaying with trolls, i'd rather focus on people that I can actually sit down and create a story with.

[FORSETIS]

Dont judge all evils based on the actions of a few. If I did that for the good aligned players Id be just as upset as you. Also, you may not want to take the most recent posts by myself to seriously. I was being light hearted, and trying to make a point.

Everyone gets busted at some point for being evil. In one way or another. If the punishment is to harsh, no one is going to want to risk it. So no story, or anything. Im sorry you have ran into some bad situations there Bloodalchemist. But what do you want them to do? Risk getting busted so they can spend a month in jail, thus not play their character for said amount of time, and then get a fat fine ontop of it? So yeah, you piss an evil character off, that does not care about laws like good people, you are suddenly going to be stabbed by an invisible guy. Im sure they could rp more before hand and such, take into account your character. But he also has to cover his own arse and make sure he gets away. or else he gets busted, and does not get to play his character. Or... if some of this thread stuff gets passed, he gets banned from towns. and loses xp aswell.

[The Tallest Dwarf]

Nov 17, 2013 20:35:26 GMT -5 Razgriz said:

Im just saying that executions should matter more beyond the death of the character. We want PCs scared of being executed. Why should an execution count as having your past sins and crimes forgiven by the law when you are clearly showing little interest in change?

I don't theink they should be banned form towns, simply because that would be unfair, but if someone is going to play a killer and then is dicovered, well next time try another approach or wait for the best moment to strike.

Gotta disagree here mate. The issue is that there are not enough IC punishments for characters who are executed (especially multiple times) which is why several of us have suggested things like exiles, more jail-time, and other measures. I'll state again that I don't think increasing the xp and gp loss should be done because that to me appears like a punishment for roleplaying whereas these stricter IC responses seem legitimate given the circumstances.

[FORSETIS]

Nov 17, 2013 21:42:26 GMT -5 The Tallest Dwarf said:

Nov 17, 2013 20:35:26 GMT -5 Razgriz said:

Im just saying that executions should matter more beyond the death of the character. We want PCs scared of being executed. Why should an execution count as having your past sins and crimes forgiven by the law when you are clearly showing little interest in change?

I don't theink they should be banned form towns, simply because that would be unfair, but if someone is going to play a killer and then is dicovered, well next time try another approach or wait for the best moment to strike.

Gotta disagree here mate. The issue is that there are not enough IC punishments for characters who are executed (especially multiple times) which is why several of us have suggested things like exiles, more jail-time, and other measures. I'll state again that I don't think increasing the xp and gp loss should be done because that to me appears like a punishment for roleplaying whereas these stricter IC responses seem legitimate given the circumstances.

I can get down with this.

[arisnorman1]

im all down for banishments from towns hell aris was barred from GG why not use this on other evils?

[Razgriz]

Nov 17, 2013 20:23:01 GMT -5 @sharauvyn said:

I think that a person should be permanently outlawed and not protected by law anymore after the third execution, as Merc suggested, but I also think that the server should have more places that evil PC's can congregate and gain supplies. Then maybe sensible penalties wouldn't necessarily mean people wouldn't do evil RP.

Hmm maybe some sort of bastion for exiled characters could exist in the Stonelands. Yes, something like a ruthless and unforgiving place without laws and were only the strongest survive.

[The Tallest Dwarf]

Nov 17, 2013 22:07:30 GMT -5 Razgriz said:

Nov 17, 2013 20:23:01 GMT -5 @sharauvyn said:

I think that a person should be permanently outlawed and not protected by law anymore after the third execution, as Merc suggested, but I also think that the server should have more places that evil PC's can congregate and gain supplies. Then maybe sensible penalties wouldn't necessarily mean people wouldn't do evil RP.

Hmm maybe some sort of bastion for exiled characters could exist in the Stonelands. Yes, something like a ruthless and unforgiving place without laws and were only the strongest survive.

I always thought it would make sense if the Thayan Enclave got some additions where pc's wanted by Cormyr or just in need of some measure of immunity could stage themselves.Perhaps even giving the enclave a caravan (even outside the gate) would help with the feeling of isolation. Exiled PCs could ride it to a crossroads somewhere perhaps. Perhaps if the Exile script got added, attempt to enter cities that way.


I like the idea of a bastion in the Stonelands too, the caveat being that it's a high level area and not everyone who might seek refuge would be able to get there without assistance.

[Deleted]

Nov 17, 2013 22:07:30 GMT -5 Razgriz said:

Nov 17, 2013 20:23:01 GMT -5 @sharauvyn said:

I think that a person should be permanently outlawed and not protected by law anymore after the third execution, as Merc suggested, but I also think that the server should have more places that evil PC's can congregate and gain supplies. Then maybe sensible penalties wouldn't necessarily mean people wouldn't do evil RP.

Hmm maybe some sort of bastion for exiled characters could exist in the Stonelands. Yes, something like a ruthless and unforgiving place without laws and were only the strongest survive.

That would be awesomeness, with awesome sauce.

[StabbingNirvana]

Double awesome because it's in a place where the only law is the sword... PvP hotspot I'd say

[quelunia]

Nov 17, 2013 20:56:29 GMT -5 FORSETIS said:

Nov 17, 2013 20:29:44 GMT -5 quelunia said:

Ya, Forskin is on to something.... lol. All evils, take a month off of instigating and intrigue. Consolidate and see were the server is then.bored and no new threads.....

I hate you.

I love ya bro, and I mean it haha! Your the man.

[Lady Frost]

While I've been on the "increase the penalty" side of the argument, I think a point should be made. Why does so much PvP require death? Probably because that's one of the few ways to secure a sure victory. In real life, things don't escalate nearly as fast for two -huge- reasons. Fear and pain. Both of which are impossible to force another player to RP with their PC. When you have so many players unwilling to show fear and pain on their PC's the next escalation is death and forcing the player to take the penalty that comes with it because when the PC is "invincible" what else is there besides just ignoring them? You can't scare or intimidate the PC, so you have to cause the player to fear for their XP. I think if "good" allowed for more effect from these "villain" PC's you may find that the need to go to extremes like murder wasn't as necessary thus affecting the need for extremes against the villains.

[ID10Tango]

Nov 17, 2013 20:24:47 GMT -5 FORSETIS said:

Well I think... in short.. that all evil players should be banned for 2 months. See how fun it is without any conflict then!!!!! *cries*

But really.. why punish people who are only trying to create story?

*didnt read every post in this thread, sorry if I repeated something someone already said, dont hate me*

I've already decided that Mobius is offline until further notice. Not sure if he'll be back.

[Razgriz]

Nov 17, 2013 23:39:21 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

While I've been on the "increase the penalty" side of the argument, I think a point should be made. Why does so much PvP require death? Probably because that's one of the few ways to secure a sure victory. In real life, things don't escalate nearly as fast for two -huge- reasons. Fear and pain. Both of which are impossible to force another player to RP with their PC. When you have so many players unwilling to show fear and pain on their PC's the next escalation is death and forcing the player to take the penalty that comes with it because when the PC is "invincible" what else is there besides just ignoring them? You can't scare or intimidate the PC, so you have to cause the player to fear for their XP. I think if "good" allowed for more effect from these "villain" PC's you may find that the need to go to extremes like murder wasn't as necessary thus affecting the need for extremes against the villains.

There could be many reasons why someone will not show fear, that depends on the character. Some sure could, but for others is not that simple. If we are going to talk about fear, I think "evils" can be way more original than threatening *spoiler* the apparently fearless character. But Im not giving more ideas. haha

[Grozer]

Nov 17, 2013 22:18:19 GMT -5 The Tallest Dwarf said:

Nov 17, 2013 22:07:30 GMT -5 Razgriz said:

Hmm maybe some sort of bastion for exiled characters could exist in the Stonelands. Yes, something like a ruthless and unforgiving place without laws and were only the strongest survive.

I always thought it would make sense if the Thayan Enclave got some additions where pc's wanted by Cormyr or just in need of some measure of immunity could stage themselves.Perhaps even giving the enclave a caravan (even outside the gate) would help with the feeling of isolation. Exiled PCs could ride it to a crossroads somewhere perhaps. Perhaps if the Exile script got added, attempt to enter cities that way.


I like the idea of a bastion in the Stonelands too, the caveat being that it's a high level area and not everyone who might seek refuge would be able to get there without assistance.

You know this is a great idea and not only because its something I had pushed for such a very long time back. In fact it was back when the general sense was that corrupt nefarious individuals controlled Redmist. At the time Redmist became Valkur's Roar and the generally considered 'safe haven' for bad PCs wasn't so much anymore.

The idea never really got much support or traction but I still think its an excellent idea, especially if it exists outside or on the fringes of the Cormyrian borders. Redmist had been well suited at the time because it was independent from the Crown and its own city-state within the Western Reaches lands. Stonelands or the Thayan enclave is a great idea, although the enclave is less so since Thay still likes to try and maintain the semblance of neutrality so as not to damages their trade opportunity (this is my opinion and interpretation). Stonelands is even a better idea, could be like one of those small towns in a bad western movie where there is no sheriff and anyone entering the place takes their life into their own hands. Heh. Either place would be great if it could also draw PCs to it so there is some level of interaction. As it is right now the Enclave could serve that purpose but realistically since no one really frequents the place the amount of RP is virtually non-existent.

[Kiyohime 🐍]

I fully support this

The only problem with the Stonelands is that it is a high level area. We need a place for the evil lowbies to hang out too!


.

[iangallowglas]

Nov 18, 2013 12:44:08 GMT -5 Kiyohime 🐍 said:

I fully support this

The only problem with the Stonelands is that it is a high level area. We need a place for the evil lowbies to hang out too!


.

You can visit the stonelands at low to mid teens from my experience. While not perfect, it's still a viable option as it stands now. A relatively safe path could also be added to get to this bastion of evil as well, though I like the idea of getting their being part of a "test of worthiness", so to say, for the bad guys. Kind of a ..."you made it here, so you must be somewhat of a bad ass"...earning a measure of respect from the evil (and I guess even neutral) folks hanging out there.

Liking this idea more and more as I think about it.

[The Tallest Dwarf]

Nov 18, 2013 13:01:29 GMT -5 iangallowglas said:

Nov 18, 2013 12:44:08 GMT -5 Kiyohime 🐍 said:

I fully support this

The only problem with the Stonelands is that it is a high level area. We need a place for the evil lowbies to hang out too!


.

You can visit the stonelands at low to mid teens from my experience. While not perfect, it's still a viable option as it stands now. A relatively safe path could also be added to get to this bastion of evil as well, though I like the idea of getting their being part of a "test of worthiness", so to say, for the bad guys. Kind of a ..."you made it here, so you must be somewhat of a bad ass"...earning a measure of respect from the evil (and I guess even neutral) folks hanging out there.

Liking this idea more and more as I think about it. >:D

I thought of that too, and I like the conceit behind it, but I still think some sort of travel option between the Enclave and wherever this bastion ends up being could make sense. Maybe even have it be a secret route; you have to worship the Thayvian gods to travel back n forth, be known to them, etc? Obviously that implies you're not a scrub either but at least it makes for some semblance of secrecy.



Also, name the Stonelands town Deadwood. Just sayin'.