|
|
Post by Lokarn on May 23, 2014 13:14:34 GMT -5
Hello everyone. The recent posts in the DM Q&A thread about "accidentally" robbing a grave and receiving a glowy red mark on ones hand has interested me. So I would like to discuss the ins, and outs of taking things from the dead, and how your PC perceives this act.
Taking things from any grave, urn, sarcophagus, what have you is robbing the dead. Generally this is an act of willful disrespect to the dead. Your PC is taking things buried with the dead so that they may sell them and get more gear, supplies, or whatever your PC is into.
I was most curious at just how many Players have PCs who do not role play the marks on their hands. This is only my opinion, but if you earned a grave robbers mark, it should be at the least role played each time you meet a new PC, and every once in a while after that. It's a brightly glowing letter that all can see from anywhere near you even through your gloves, other barriers. I was surprised at just how many paladins have a grave robbing mark, are you all going through all the other crypts robbing all of those graves as well? Paladins should be ashamed of yourselves for robbing graves, weather a script gives you a mark or not. I find that very disappointing.
OOCly, yes it means you will bypass a lot of loot in a crypt area. My good PC loses out on a lot of loot because of it, but he is slaying undead and that is reward as well. Sure, it's costly, you use more supplies with less ability to replenish them, but them's the breaks.
Anyway, I didn't want to be one of the folks who post in DM Q&A's so I started this here instead.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kiyohime 🐍 on May 23, 2014 13:18:41 GMT -5
They should teach not to rob graves at the Temple of Defenders. You tormtars should be ashamed of yourselves.
----
Jokes aside, though. There is no such thing as doing it by accident. Roleplay the damn mark, ffs. Haha.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 13:22:41 GMT -5
Unless there's a clear IC mechanism as to how the mark got there, I wouldn't RP it. I've not been in that situation, but, "the game said so" isn't really an IC mechanism, so ... if there isn't a clear, believable "how" as to how the mark got there, no, I wouldn't.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pedantry INC on May 23, 2014 13:38:27 GMT -5
Quite frankly, when you're in a dungeon and you're looting various things, it's easy to have difficulty telling what graves are 'ok' and what graves are not ok. When you're fighting undead, and undead pop up from graves you touch, sometimes you touch them just to see if undead pop out at you. My goods do this often, I rp 'tapping the crypt with the blunt side of a weapon', open the box to see if undead pop out at me, then close it without looting.
In a place where undead are everywhere, if a coffin isn't locked, it's pretty understandable to open a grave to see if anything is inside it. There is only one place in cormyr that will punish you for doing that. Did you know that you can actually get the grave robber token by putting something -into- that one unmarked, unlocked coffin that looks like a box? Trust me. It is very easy to mistake that one for a loot bin when you're dealing with undead, other characters running around, and trying to keep up with them. It's also easy to shove garbage you've taken off a corpse into one of those containers and get the token from doing that.
I think it's unfounded to make accusations about what people are doing right or wrong when you weren't there and haven't given them any opportunity to tell you what the situation was. It's also unfair to assume it's never been RPed.
Mirrir got the token rooting around for undead and dumping bones into a container. She pitched a fit about it to the kelemvorites. "Hey, I just killed a damn dracolich for you, you give me this for my effort? Gee thanks!" I rped several times with a Kelemvorite cleric. She went so far as to post things to the forums. A dm never responded. The cleric stopped playing on frc, and I gave up on getting an ingame resolution and after a while, stopped rping about the mark, because if there's no way to resolve it, it's essentially pointless: a "dead end" if you'll pardon the pun.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 13:52:58 GMT -5
I think the spirit (here we are with puns again) behind the mark is a good one, but from what I'm seeing about it, it looks like the implementation, and certainly the potential for engaging RP stemming from it, could use some work if it's going to be part of the game. Marking someone permanently or semi-permanently for touching something is rightfully a motif used as the hook or resolution for a long standing, momentous quest, not a, "Oops, you touched a box" handed out indiscriminately by an automated script. I mean, is it farming to go back and visit the same dungeon twelve times in an hour because I'd like to cover my whole body in free tattoos?  |
|
|
|
Post by Lokarn on May 23, 2014 14:06:43 GMT -5
Unless there's a clear IC mechanism as to how the mark got there, I wouldn't RP it. I've not been in that situation, but, "the game said so" isn't really an IC mechanism, so ... if there isn't a clear, believable "how" as to how the mark got there, no, I wouldn't. These graves are located inside a crypt clearly designated as being a Kelemvorite crypt. The god Kelemvore gives the mark rp wise. As for knowing which graves are "ok" umm none? rp wise it's up to each player to decide what his or her PC will think is acceptable, but taking from a grave, is taking from a grave. Even if an undead was in there, your PC can't "know" where the item came from. So all your PC can "know" is that the item came out of that grave. I understand there are various schools of thought on what is acceptable to take and what is not. For the sake of clarity I will argue one side. If your PC takes something from any container that would easily be considered a "grave" then they are grave robbing. As for placing items into a grave... I know being tired, busy, distracted does happen, but in essence your PC is still defiling a grave by dumping all sorts of "junk" into another person's final resting place. Some might see that as even more disrespectful than taking something. As far as the cleric disappearing on you, and no DM having responded to your RP, you could just as easily see that as Kelemvore not caring what reasons you had for being there. The PC did dump junk into a grave after all. /shrug. |
|
|
|
Post by Lady Frost on May 23, 2014 14:54:16 GMT -5
I agree with Lokarn.
You get the mark for 'disturbing' the tomb/sarcophagus; taking or adding. I really feel that those claiming an OOC'ness of the mark are looking at it from an OOC perspective. If viewed completely IC, like Lokarn is suggesting, it makes complete sense. Taking from any grave is 'graverobbing'. Just because no other gods watch over the other crypts, or choose to not respond to graverobbing, or even that Kelemvor chooses to not punish those taking from boxes inside this crypt, isn't justification as to why it's okay or why there shouldn't be a punishment for doing this act.
Most everybody commits crimes in their life, the most common being speeding, probably. Some police officers choose to enforce it differently. However, when one does decide to and pulls you over do you say, "Yea, I was speeding but nobody else usually pulls me over so I shouldn't get a ticket because that's not fair; I thought it was okay."? Some places have speed traps and you have to follow the rules there, other places don't have speed traps, but that still doesn't mean you aren't breaking the law. If you take things from crypts, if you take things from homes, if you take things from people, if you kill innocents, if you defile a holy site, if you do anything that someone finds unfavorable, you take a chance someone, or something, will respond. 98% of the time nothing happens, some of that is mechanics, but when something does happen, claiming ignorance or that isn't how it usually happens isn't a good OOC argument against the IC happening.
My recommendation would be for those with marks to take a more active approach. Start working to figure it out and pick a DM to PM. Don't let yourself be ignored. Find someone to help you. When Zoe had her mark, I RP'd it consistently for a few weeks. Consistently being not once a day but many times a day; when new people came around her, when she entered the GG square, anytime someone should know about it. I tried to make it very well known that I was RP'ing it, especially since I knew nobody RP'd it and I wanted to stand out. After a few weeks I tracked down a DM and explained that I wanted to provide a group of unknown low level characters a chance to be involved in some fun RP. I found a group of low level dwarves and we RP'd chopping Zoe's hand off. It was rather interesting since they didn't get it in one swing and we all had a good time of it. I found a Loviatan-like solution that sort of fit with Zoe, and included others in it. For those that have found Kelemvorite PC's to RP with, that sounds like a good way. Just make sure someone knows what you're trying to do and that you don't let yourself be ignored.
2coppers
|
|
|
|
Post by StabbingNirvana on May 23, 2014 15:05:29 GMT -5
In regards to the paladins grave robbing, I believe I have read somewhere that even paladins would take what is necessary to continue on with their crusade. Now I dont remember where it was I read that, but it makes sense. A undead fill crypt is corrupted already. Best to take the belongings and put them to good purpose. Stealing from non-undead, like the containers in that specific crypt where the mark hits you is a bit different.
There's also the issue that we're conditioned everywhere else on the server to loot those containers throughout our play with the exception of that one server. I dont remember if the containers in that specific dungeon are appropriately named or not, but the expectation is that people will click them.
|
|
|
|
Post by Razgriz on May 23, 2014 15:07:39 GMT -5
Holance no longer has any grave robbing mark. He did tithe tons of gold to Kelemvor.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lokarn on May 23, 2014 15:21:53 GMT -5
In regards to the paladins grave robbing, I believe I have read somewhere that even paladins would take what is necessary to continue on with their crusade. Now I dont remember where it was I read that, but it makes sense. A undead fill crypt is corrupted already. Best to take the belongings and put them to good purpose. Stealing from non-undead, like the containers in that specific crypt where the mark hits you is a bit different. There's also the issue that we're conditioned everywhere else on the server to loot those containers throughout our play with the exception of that one server. I dont remember if the containers in that specific dungeon are appropriately named or not, but the expectation is that people will click them. I completely disagree that you are "conditioned" to rob graves everywhere else. You simply never think of it that way every where else. It's not the DMs job to tell you how to choose to rp looting graves. They are there, and you "can" loot from them. Doesn't mean you should, or that you shouldn't. As for the argument of putting the things to good use... that sounds like an IC type of argument based on your PCs perspective. In an OOC way of thinking, you are stealing them regardless of why. IC your pc is perfectly capable of slaying the undead that may have come from that tomb and leaving the items there. It might be plausible that those items came from the undead dragging them there for whatever reason, but just as plausible is that those things were buried there with the dead. Taking them is a risk, the question is: Does your PC think possibly violating a tomb is worth a few lions? |
|
|
|
Post by DOT on May 23, 2014 15:26:00 GMT -5
hmm if the area was clearly marked as a kelemvorite crypt, then its probably appropriate to recieve a mark. that said, and i dont want to get into spoilers here, if said crypt was 'tainted' then kelemvor should be focusing more on that rather than doling out marks. for that matter, if it is a crypt of kelemvor, then it should be the one graveyard/crypt on the server that -isn't- tainted or perhaps has npc guards keeping watch over it to preserve the sanctity of the area
|
|
|
|
Post by Sadistic Hobo on May 23, 2014 15:28:42 GMT -5
As long as your character is vain and bossy and always makes someone else do the looting, this should never be a problem.
It's true that this stuff doesn't happen elsewhere, but unlike all those other classrooms, the cleric of Kelemvor camping outside suggests that the teacher is watching.
I don't think there's such a thing as the mark being OOC. Unless you misclicked on it by a series of manual errors, it's there. You can't say your character wouldn't have done it after the fact, because... they did.
|
|
|
|
Post by Razgriz on May 23, 2014 15:32:48 GMT -5
Maybe the best would be to just add the risk of getting the token in every other crypt in the module, so that it is not open to interpretation. Plain and simple enough if you ask me.
|
|
|
|
Post by maeglhachel on May 23, 2014 15:39:28 GMT -5
Uhhh ... I disagree.
If it's the protection of the Kelemvorites that does it, fine. But I don't think every grave just anywhere would get the benefit. Or else the grave robber merchants in the module would go out of business, too.
|
|
|
|
Post by grivel on May 23, 2014 15:55:10 GMT -5
My dwarf got the mark and I tried to RP it whenever I thought about it, which is hard to do since it is just another token in your inventory. I finally attracted a DM who set him on a quest for Kelemvor through his priestess. He completed the quest and the mark was removed. I liked the fact that this particular crypt did this to an unknowing dwarf who was just opening the grave to check for undead and not taking anything. He learned his lesson about disturbing the dead. I only wish there was some way to make the mark more visible.
|
|
|
|
Post by DOT on May 23, 2014 16:06:08 GMT -5
Idea: Invisible placeable next to the grave that says *exudes a sense of peace and calm... the grave does not seem to have been tainted*
|
|
|
|
Post by appleseedy on May 23, 2014 16:07:21 GMT -5
isnt the point that robbing graves full stop of any description anywhere in the module is kinds shady?
The question i'm really hearing is "should paladins rob graves"?
In terms of ic actions its gotta be evil right? A paladin could take that quite seriously you could expect to be either booted from party or abandoned as the pc upset by your grave robbing walks out. I know i have been threatened with pvp over the issue of robbing from the dead. Not saying that's what should happen by the way just offering it as an example.
|
|
|
|
Post by DOT on May 23, 2014 16:25:11 GMT -5
If npcs and the player populace all speak of the evil found within a specific tomb, then that tomb is lost to begin with and is no longer a sanctified place. it depends on the crypt really. personally, I would love to see at least one crypt where you have regular kelemvor npc patrols ensuring nothing creeps in and possesses the dead. it would be the most booooring, but beautiful crypt ever, but definitly a place you'd want to be buried.
its like saying killing is outright evil imo, but if the thing/person to be killed is unredeamable (sp?), then alls fair game
|
|
|
|
Post by StabbingNirvana on May 23, 2014 16:31:50 GMT -5
I completely disagree that you are "conditioned" to rob graves everywhere else. You simply never think of it that way every where else. It's not the DMs job to tell you how to choose to rp looting graves. They are there, and you "can" loot from them. Doesn't mean you should, or that you shouldn't. As for the argument of putting the things to good use... that sounds like an IC type of argument based on your PCs perspective. In an OOC way of thinking, you are stealing them regardless of why. IC your pc is perfectly capable of slaying the undead that may have come from that tomb and leaving the items there. It might be plausible that those items came from the undead dragging them there for whatever reason, but just as plausible is that those things were buried there with the dead. Taking them is a risk, the question is: Does your PC think possibly violating a tomb is worth a few lions? On the OOC: We're conditioned to loot everywhere else on the server. Walk along the road from one town to the other and how many loot containers are piles of bones? How many of those bone containers have loot that would be found on human remains? Saying we aren't conditioned by the game itself to loot from every container that glows when tab is pressed is willful blindness. More than half the containers anywhere on the server are bones. On the IC: Paladins loot from enemies they killed during battle. Paladins loot from ancient ruins. Why wouldn't they loot from destroying undead? How is looting from a freshly killed corpse different than looting from a freshly destroyed undead? If a paladin walked into a crypt and started looting for the hell of it, that's one thing. If a paladin went, destroyed an army of undead, and took what he needed to continue his crusade, that's another. |
|
|
|
Post by DOT on May 23, 2014 16:39:08 GMT -5
Guys guys (and gals, and possible 3rd genders), we have to take this -game- with a grain of salt.
Yes you can go totally in depth and hard-line rp it by not looting tainted crypts. You can even choose to never use any of the commodes on the server, chat in a town square for 2 ig days without rest, happen to wander into greatguant from waymoot when you 'hear' a shout of the muster bell ringing.
At the end of the day, you -will have to- allow for some relief from believability because 1, its a game, 2 its not real life. If I'm playing a paladin, and I don't loot -any- crypts on a server, then you're damn sure its going to be on a perma-death server and not here.
|
|
|
|
Post by EDM Entori on May 23, 2014 17:47:29 GMT -5
Unless there's a clear IC mechanism as to how the mark got there, I wouldn't RP it. I've not been in that situation, but, "the game said so" isn't really an IC mechanism, so ... if there isn't a clear, believable "how" as to how the mark got there, no, I wouldn't. These graves are located inside a crypt clearly designated as being a Kelemvorite crypt. The god Kelemvore gives the mark rp wise. As for knowing which graves are "ok" umm none? rp wise it's up to each player to decide what his or her PC will think is acceptable, but taking from a grave, is taking from a grave. Even if an undead was in there, your PC can't "know" where the item came from. So all your PC can "know" is that the item came out of that grave. I understand there are various schools of thought on what is acceptable to take and what is not. For the sake of clarity I will argue one side. If your PC takes something from any container that would easily be considered a "grave" then they are grave robbing. As for placing items into a grave... I know being tired, busy, distracted does happen, but in essence your PC is still defiling a grave by dumping all sorts of "junk" into another person's final resting place. Some might see that as even more disrespectful than taking something. As far as the cleric disappearing on you, and no DM having responded to your RP, you could just as easily see that as Kelemvore not caring what reasons you had for being there. The PC did dump junk into a grave after all. /shrug. you cannot look at one specific location here, and not everywhere else. I would BET that a good odd's of FRC's dungeons are tombs or crypts. I would ALSO bet that most of the loot containers in those dungeons are some some of internment. I like my RP a little on the hardcore side, but when its 2 am and your forcing one last duegon for the night; especially to play for friends on the west coast, you kinda get into a rut. the overall behavior I know for me when I'm looting is ...TAB .. *click blue things in succession*. I know the RP is there and I know its marked as a kelemvor site. BUT every other site on FRC MUST be a grave to some god or another, and the difference is that undead have risen from one grave or another and now your taking their stuff, or how I like to see it, stuff that was put there by the undead after eating some poor sap. To take it 100% literal and have to have the presence of mind 100% of the time to watch what you click is hard. I've done said dungeon many many times, only got it now. I have a character that also got a mark years ago from a seperate location, a location in suzail and what it came down to was that to be honest, I didn't picture a "GIANT" urn to be someones grave but the game did, and thus bam. you need to have a way to show it is different something on the object, either mark it in the titles "sealed coffin" or the locked thing, regards the DM;s have already said they were going to lock them and it got put by the wayside. so hopefully its going to get fixed. |
|
|
|
Post by iangallowglas on May 23, 2014 18:15:09 GMT -5
My character Ian got the graverobber token from a crypt in Suzail, probably 6 years ago RL time. I don't know if that crypt still gives the token or not. I rp'd Ian having the mark. He tithed over 50k to Kelemvor to try and get the mark removed, but nothing changed for him, so now he hates Kelemvor and Kelemvorites. I have him spit at their shrines when he passes them (among other petty things) and he robs from the graves in spite. He goes to further extremes that I won't mention here as well. Of course, I don't play him much anymore, but there were a few people that knew about the mark. He lied to the people that asked him how he got it, saying it happened when he was a youth working with his father.
I also have a Paladin that I play, Kian Boru. Kian doesn't take from any graves, marked or unmarked. Is he poor? Always. The only magic item that he has that wasn't found as loot is his strength gloves. He bought his gloves used from a fellow member of the RCMH.
I have other characters with the mark as well, I try to RP it when I play them, but I'm also sure that I forget to do so as often as not.
|
|
|
|
Post by Razgriz on May 23, 2014 18:22:01 GMT -5
Uhhh ... I disagree. If it's the protection of the Kelemvorites that does it, fine. But I don't think every grave just anywhere would get the benefit. Or else the grave robber merchants in the module would go out of business, too. Well, if that is so then most here will be playing an "unmarked grave robber" or maybe they are doing it already. Besides, for certain groups the mark could be a sign of prestige, or a way to show that a specific character can be trusted by this or that shady faction. Placing arbitrary restrictions is that, so anyone can agree to it or not. There is something worse than stealing from the dead anyway and that is stealing the dead themselves and "using" their remains. For some reason Kelemvor doesn't care about that.  |
|
|
|
Post by Lokarn on May 23, 2014 20:11:34 GMT -5
I think a lot of folks are trying to justify looting graves in any sort of way that they can. I understand a lot of crypts have a lot of the loot-able containers as graves. I do not consider it very hard at all to manage your PCs beliefs about robbing graves. Saying well I wasn't paying attention to the fact that my PC was taking loot from people's graves is an odd argument to me. I can't understand how you accidentally commit such a blatant act of evil. If your PC would normally do such things, perfect, keep doing it. If you are playing a paladin, how can you honestly see robbing graves as a viable act? It is defiling the final resting place of another person.
As far as looting the various bone piles around the server; I think you are grasping at straws. Looting random dead thing on the ground is VERY different from looting from a clearly designated tomb inside a crypt.
As far as the "well it's already tainted, so robbing the graves is fine!" argument.... uhm... no. That's like arguing since Greatgaunt is already all kinds of messed up, that you should just go around killing random people because it's tainted so who cares?
In the spirit of suggesting RP ideas;
1. if you have a mark, place it on the first page of your inventory
2. look at it on occasion, ask yourself if you are protraying the mark as the description says
3. look into finding a way to redeem yourself if you dislike it.
4. stop stealing things from graves if it would be against your PC's ethos.
5. don't ignore that you have the mark, it was implemented on the server for a reason, we as players don't get to decide because we don't like something that we can ignore it. Use it as a learning experience, or a chance to develop your PC's thoughts on grave robbing.
|
|
|
|
Post by StabbingNirvana on May 23, 2014 20:49:54 GMT -5
Sounds like destroying undead would be desecrating a corpse too then, lokarn. Equally as evil and as much a crime as grave robbing.
Putting the grave robbing label on a place that for all purposes stops being a grave, is flawed, I'd say.
Edit: That's for IC. No need to rehash the OOC argument as its above.
|
|
|
|
Post by Razgriz on May 23, 2014 20:57:51 GMT -5
If we are going to be so hardcore about such things then my argument stands. Put the grave robber token in every crypt there is. No exceptions. Otherwise it is just silly to have it because in one crypt is evil to take things while in others it is what the player choses to RP.
But I don't really care but this thread. My PC got it (like a year ago) and he doesn't have it anymore.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lokarn on May 23, 2014 21:16:42 GMT -5
This post is directed at Stabbing Nirvana.
I don't get what point you are trying to make. Destroying undead is not desecrating a corpse. Can you clarify what your point is?
Mine is this: Taking items from a grave is robbing the grave. PCs can guess how the item came to be inside the grave, but they can never be 100% sure without witnessing the item being placed there. As such it seems more reasonable as a goodly, lawful PC type to err on the side of caution for the sake of the dead, then to rob the grave not knowing.
As for players who "check" the graves to see if there are undead inside them, /shrug my PC would not touch a grave unless it was obvious that there was an undead inside. That's a player's decision as to how to rp it. I'm not interested in that act.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lokarn on May 23, 2014 21:20:58 GMT -5
If we are going to be so hardcore about such things then my argument stands. Put the grave robber token in every crypt there is. No exceptions. Otherwise it is just silly to have it because in one crypt is evil to take things while in others it is what the player choses to RP. But I don't really care but this thread. My PC got it (like a year ago) and he doesn't have it anymore. No, the reason for the mark in that crypt is because Kelemvore is actively watching for grave robbing there. It's IC. Not all crypts are being watched at all times. You seem to me to be making it into an OOC issue. It's an IC issue. Just because you can get away with shoplifting, doesn't make it not against the law, or any less "bad" Do you steal, or don't you? That's the premise of the thread. |
|
|
|
Post by StabbingNirvana on May 23, 2014 21:34:53 GMT -5
My point is this:
A grave stops being a grave the moment a body is jolted in existence as undead (or raised to life via resurrection).
----
If looting a grave that isn't a grave anymore is considered grave robbing, then beating a corpse until the undeath leaves it should be considered desecration of a corpse.
I'm sure we all agree that desecrating corpses and grave robbing is immoral, evil, and illegal. So at that point, there's no reason to enter a crypt to clear the undead because no matter what you're doing, its wrong.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sadistic Hobo on May 23, 2014 21:47:24 GMT -5
What matters is the state of the container in question, not the tomb its in. Looting a coffin that a vampire was using as a Holiday Inn is fine, because it's a freaking Holiday Inn. Those rooms are gross. Looting an undisturbed burial container is sketchball.
I don't even know if the containers that give you the mark are undisturbed. My character never loots, which avoids this entire line of apparently super inconvenient roleplay. But the tomb shouldn't be the question.
|
|
