Grave robbing and you.

[bloodalchemist]

Gonna have to agree with Ivarcles on this actually. If you try to look at this all ic, which is pretty silly, you have to take into account that in cormyr, there are more undead than any other monstrous creature on the server. We joke about how many orcs there are, but every town seems to have undead in their crypt, or if they lack one, undead in some adjacent area. They are the single most common monster on the server. if you take -everything- as ic then most would assume that there is no sacred place for the dead to rest in cormyr. Hell, the Kelemvor church (one of the most powerful and widespread churches in the realms) would have lead an inquisition here years ago, probably destroying the nation in the process for their willingness to abide the undead taint.

I mean valkurs roar alone has 3 crypts filled with undead. Basically, rp not looting if you want, rp it however you want. Dont ride a high horse over not looting the dead and go on about how evil an act it is, cause in cormyr, its simply a job like exterminating rats. You might as well get paid to do it. At best it is a chaotic act, depending on the cultural views, but even then with the state of undeath on frc, who cares?
Anyways, act how you want in character, my good guys will be annoyed and tell you not to do it, then kill you if you keep doing it. The rest will probably either find a way to do it behind your back, or stick a knife in your back if you get in the way of their money. RP at its best yo. I long ago gave up suspension of disbelief on here due to death systems, something small like graverobbing seems silly to get hung up about.

[Lady Frost]

May 30, 2014 22:26:14 GMT -5 bloodalchemist said:

Gonna have to agree with Ivarcles on this actually. If you try to look at this all ic, which is pretty silly, you have to take into account that in cormyr, there are more undead than any other monstrous creature on the server. We joke about how many orcs there are, but every town seems to have undead in their crypt, or if they lack one, undead in some adjacent area. They are the single most common monster on the server. if you take -everything- as ic then most would assume that there is no sacred place for the dead to rest in cormyr. Hell, the Kelemvor church (one of the most powerful and widespread churches in the realms) would have lead an inquisition here years ago, probably destroying the nation in the process for their willingness to abide the undead taint.

I mean valkurs roar alone has 3 crypts filled with undead. Basically, rp not looting if you want, rp it however you want. Dont ride a high horse over not looting the dead and go on about how evil an act it is, cause in cormyr, its simply a job like exterminating rats. You might as well get paid to do it. At best it is a chaotic act, depending on the cultural views, but even then with the state of undeath on frc, who cares?
Anyways, act how you want in character, my good guys will be annoyed and tell you not to do it, then kill you if you keep doing it. The rest will probably either find a way to do it behind your back, or stick a knife in your back if you get in the way of their money. RP at its best yo. I long ago gave up suspension of disbelief on here due to death systems, something small like graverobbing seems silly to get hung up about.

I do not agree with this.
First, you just told us where you do use suspension of disbelief, then told us you gave up on it. Second, I think suspending disbelief on the "state of undeath" in Cormyr is acceptable and probably a good idea, even. I don't think suspending disbelief on the looting of graves is acceptable. Having to kill bandits, Cormyr having lots of undead, guards who don't respond, mosquitos carrying halberds; those are places to suspend disbelief. They're situations that you and your PC are forced to endure. Looting graves is not forced on you. It can be avoided. I don't agree that it's a fair place to suspend disbelief. If you have a character that can make the decision that its not a big deal, then that's great. Heck, DM Munroe's post to Lokarn's DM Q&A gives a very good platform for your PC to base an argument around, but I still firmly think it should be an IC decision and not an OOC one based on suspension of disbelief. That's my opinion though.

Lastly, I think of graverobbing as chaotic, not evil. Why would it be evil? I guess greed is an evil trait, but I don't think that's enough to make the act evil, is it?

[StabbingNirvana]

Looting graves IS forced on you unless you're sporting loads of gold from prior expeditions. At our epic levels we have the convenience of sitting on our high horse while picking and choosing where to loot, but how are the lower leveled folk suppose to support their characters when they go through dungeons using supplies? Again, if we're taking every single thing we do and see on the screen as literal, then our characters do 2 different attack strikes, we're always entering the same exact orc caves, fighting the same exact winged orc boss, killing the same deepspawn, and looting the same exact coffins we looted the week before. Be reasonable.

[Defunct Fiddlesticks]

Well, here's a solution.

Some of you here are on the build team, I believe? So, redesign all crypts and dungeons containing tombs to give ALL alignments fair compensation for clearing out undead - if they graverob or not.

If someone who doesn't want to loot tombs goes to clear a crypt, he should be given the option of not looting tombs and having a fair financial reward given to him at the end to replace what he has spent on clearing out undead.

If someone who doesn't care about graverobbing comes along to do the same job then give them the option of looting, getting a graverobber token and being barred from getting the same finanical compensation the first guy did.

That's fair and balanced. Both sides get rewarded financially and no one is at a disadvantage.

Right now if you go into a tomb and don't loot, then you are at a disadvantage. Some people don't loot, some characters don't due to their alignments, they're poorer than someone who does.

Now I can hear the complaints about that statement forming in certain people's minds "but why do they need to be rewarded, good alignments don't care about money for doing the right thing, etc" but mechanically it means other people get rewarded for doing what is right for their character be they evil, neutral, whatever....while some good or lawful alignments don't and get poorer for it? To me that doesn't sound like a fair "ask".

Give people who do not loot graves the option to be fairly compensated for their efforts.

[Fenix]

May 31, 2014 4:27:53 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

Looting graves IS forced on you unless you're sporting loads of gold from prior expeditions. At our epic levels we have the convenience of sitting on our high horse while picking and choosing where to loot, but how are the lower leveled folk suppose to support their characters when they go through dungeons using supplies? Again, if we're taking every single thing we do and see on the screen as literal, then our characters do 2 different attack strikes, we're always entering the same exact orc caves, fighting the same exact winged orc boss, killing the same deepspawn, and looting the same exact coffins we looted the week before. Be reasonable.

No you see nothing is forced on you about looting. That is player choice. Just because something is shiny doesnt mean loot it or you have to loot it. Players show up shiny under tab, why cant I pk you all and loot you guys? Its not fair that I cant. Oh waot, everyone would go crazy over it due to imbalance or some *chickenwing* like that. Looting is a choice made ic by a player. You can choose not to loot. You can earn your gold other ways. There are bards I know richer than myself whom have never gone on a single adventure. There are healers that rp treating people and only ever use herbs and self made poultices. Im sorry but if you think looting is FORCED, you really need to look back at that. In a year playing here I dont think ive ever been FORCED to take loot. From anywhere. Not even from dms. I have even REJECTED loot from dms. Because its in character. My character wouldnt take from x or y. If there was a crypt to silvanus, fenix would be in conflict. He wouldnt loot the faithful, but the leaving the items wouldnt really align wuth his usual opinion. But in the end he would leave it out of respect. Because hes tasked with destroying an undead. A grave is still a grave, even if your greed wants to pretend otherwise for the day. Youre not forced to take it. The graves arent spitting items at you the whole trip, and your character becoming incapable of dropping them.


And on the Necropolis? As I was told icly, by many of YOU all, thats a place beyond cormyrian law. It was created by cormyrian government to fight as an army. Now its left there as a fallback if its ever needed, but the undead just linger there. Because its such a huge force that purificatuon would take insane amounts of time. But hey, has anyone considered rping something to influence changes in a dungeon? If the amount of undead is bothersome, holy characters can rp purification rituals if you organize it with a dm you know. Why not? Theres several player influenced dungeons here that have changed since ive come around.

[StabbingNirvana]

You're right. Let me rephrase. Looting is not forced on you. You have the choice to loot.

With that, looting is forced on you if you want to do dungeons. The logic is simple.

No gold -> no heals -> no dungeons

Magic healing and herbs, which take an extraordinary amount of time to muster, are generally not a viable means to get through a dungeon.

[Kiyohime 🐍]

You guys act like FRC has nothing but dungeons with undead.

Regardless, this is a debate, not someone forcing an OOC rule. You upstanding, good aligned folk can play however you damn please.

Just enjoy the game while we still have it.

[Deleted]

To Lokarn:

This post is about respect for other people's views, and I have two real points to make. You've said above that one of your comments should be taken in a "professor talking to students" tone. The fact you would take this tone says to me that you see yourself as someone who is in a position to teach other people, while other people are in a position to learn from you. Personally, I find this position a somewhat distasteful one to take, simply because it implies that your thoughts are more informed, better developed, or otherwise more worthy of acceptance than other people's ideas are. I don't think I have to explain how that might seem a bit disrespectful to me, when we as players are supposedly all on equal footing here.

The second point I'd like to make is that different people are affected differently in terms of what draws them into the game, breaks their immersion, fosters respect, or damages credibility to them. No person can expect everyone else to be drawn in, to not have immersion broken, to be drawn to respect the game, or to not feel a lessening of credibility over the same things in the same way as themself. If someone comes in and says, "This damages the credibility of the game to me," then to them, it damages the credibility of the game. At that point, it is now up to the rest of us to accept the fact that this damages the credibility of the game to them, and if we are interested in *everyone's* immersion in and enjoyment of the game, it is now up to us to decide how we are going to rectify that so that everyone can immerse in and enjoy the game. We don't get to rewire other people's brains. But we can either fix the issue in the game that's giving some people trouble, or accept the fact that there might be people running around with tokens in their inventory which they ignore, which really doesn't affect anyone else's game play anyways, because none of us players can see the tokens there anyways.

As for "robbing graves," again, people have come in and said why they don't take this idea seriously in certain contexts in the game, and a DM has given a ruling either on this thread or the DM Q&A thread, I forget which, about the fact that it is legally and morally permissible to take things from undead lairs. Again, I think a degree of respect for the way other people interpret the game in their own mind is in order. No one is asking you to loot things you think are wrong to loot or to ignore the token in question. But I think the fact that others find the credibility of these things to be questionable in their own mind deserves some respect and room to breathe.

EDIT: After reading a little more of this thread, I think I'm going to have to tack a, "To Fenix" on this post as well.

[Razgriz]

May 31, 2014 5:55:52 GMT -5 Defunct Fiddlesticks said:

Well, here's a solution.

Some of you here are on the build team, I believe? So, redesign all crypts and dungeons containing tombs to give ALL alignments fair compensation for clearing out undead - if they graverob or not.

If someone who doesn't want to loot tombs goes to clear a crypt, he should be given the option of not looting tombs and having a fair financial reward given to him at the end to replace what he has spent on clearing out undead.

If someone who doesn't care about graverobbing comes along to do the same job then give them the option of looting, getting a graverobber token and being barred from getting the same finanical compensation the first guy did.

That's fair and balanced. Both sides get rewarded financially and no one is at a disadvantage.

Right now if you go into a tomb and don't loot, then you are at a disadvantage. Some people don't loot, some characters don't due to their alignments, they're poorer than someone who does.

Now I can hear the complaints about that statement forming in certain people's minds "but why do they need to be rewarded, good alignments don't care about money for doing the right thing, etc" but mechanically it means other people get rewarded for doing what is right for their character be they evil, neutral, whatever....while some good or lawful alignments don't and get poorer for it? To me that doesn't sound like a fair "ask".

Give people who do not loot graves the option to be fairly compensated for their efforts.

This.

And Fenix....You are not the only one who has not accepted DM rewards.

[megascorpion]

May 31, 2014 5:55:52 GMT -5 Defunct Fiddlesticks said:

Well, here's a solution.

Some of you here are on the build team, I believe? So, redesign all crypts and dungeons containing tombs to give ALL alignments fair compensation for clearing out undead - if they graverob or not.

If someone who doesn't want to loot tombs goes to clear a crypt, he should be given the option of not looting tombs and having a fair financial reward given to him at the end to replace what he has spent on clearing out undead.

If someone who doesn't care about graverobbing comes along to do the same job then give them the option of looting, getting a graverobber token and being barred from getting the same finanical compensation the first guy did.

That's fair and balanced. Both sides get rewarded financially and no one is at a disadvantage.

Right now if you go into a tomb and don't loot, then you are at a disadvantage. Some people don't loot, some characters don't due to their alignments, they're poorer than someone who does.

Now I can hear the complaints about that statement forming in certain people's minds "but why do they need to be rewarded, good alignments don't care about money for doing the right thing, etc" but mechanically it means other people get rewarded for doing what is right for their character be they evil, neutral, whatever....while some good or lawful alignments don't and get poorer for it? To me that doesn't sound like a fair "ask".

Give people who do not loot graves the option to be fairly compensated for their efforts.

Uhm, I couldn't disagree more with this post honestly! The whole point of graverobbing is to earn a bit of an extra buck, the risk should be in getting caught and the consequences of that (Either stigma among other adventurers, or with the law, or both). Even if the risk is minor, Paladins 'really' should not be earning the same kind of coin as Mr. Evil Greedyguy, that's the whole point of being a greedy evil guy! I've barely had any characters who have robbed graves, and they suffered economically for it, just as my paladin too suffered from donating most of her wealth to the rebuilding effort of Arabel. It is something that 'should' happen when you refuse to break the law to earn some gold, or decide to donate your gold for a just cause(Or unjust for that matter) you should end up poorer. Just as if your character is willing to kill an unarmed foe they are at an advantage against someone who is not when it comes to doing that. Or an anti-social character when it comes to finding friends and adventuring parties and so on and so forth.

As for the rest of the discussion. I do think people should keep in mind what it is their characters are actually doing, even when looting, the problem with the coffins and especially the graverobber token one, in my opinion, is that it is not 'clear' what is actually going on, and what the character is actually doing.

[Razgriz]

May 31, 2014 10:05:21 GMT -5 megascorpion said:

May 31, 2014 5:55:52 GMT -5 Defunct Fiddlesticks said:

Well, here's a solution.

Some of you here are on the build team, I believe? So, redesign all crypts and dungeons containing tombs to give ALL alignments fair compensation for clearing out undead - if they graverob or not.

If someone who doesn't want to loot tombs goes to clear a crypt, he should be given the option of not looting tombs and having a fair financial reward given to him at the end to replace what he has spent on clearing out undead.

If someone who doesn't care about graverobbing comes along to do the same job then give them the option of looting, getting a graverobber token and being barred from getting the same finanical compensation the first guy did.

That's fair and balanced. Both sides get rewarded financially and no one is at a disadvantage.

Right now if you go into a tomb and don't loot, then you are at a disadvantage. Some people don't loot, some characters don't due to their alignments, they're poorer than someone who does.

Now I can hear the complaints about that statement forming in certain people's minds "but why do they need to be rewarded, good alignments don't care about money for doing the right thing, etc" but mechanically it means other people get rewarded for doing what is right for their character be they evil, neutral, whatever....while some good or lawful alignments don't and get poorer for it? To me that doesn't sound like a fair "ask".

Give people who do not loot graves the option to be fairly compensated for their efforts.

Uhm, I couldn't disagree more with this post honestly! The whole point of graverobbing is to earn a bit of an extra buck, the risk should be in getting caught and the consequences of that (Either stigma among other adventurers, or with the law, or both). Even if the risk is minor, Paladins 'really' should not be earning the same kind of coin as Mr. Evil Greedyguy, that's the whole point of being a greedy evil guy! I've barely had any characters who have robbed graves, and they suffered economically for it, just as my paladin too suffered from donating most of her wealth to the rebuilding effort of Arabel. It is something that 'should' happen when you refuse to break the law to earn some gold, or decide to donate your gold for a just cause(Or unjust for that matter) you should end up poorer. Just as if your character is willing to kill an unarmed foe they are at an advantage against someone who is not when it comes to doing that. Or an anti-social character when it comes to finding friends and adventuring parties and so on and so forth.

As for the rest of the discussion. I do think people should keep in mind what it is their characters are actually doing, even when looting, the problem with the coffins and especially the graverobber token one in my opinion, is that it is not 'clear' what is actually going on, and what the character is actually doing.

Probably they should not earn that much gold, but the other suggestion to recieve xp instead of gold for not looting the crypt was more logical to me. In GG there is the quest to rescue the elves that were captured by hobogoblins and when your character returns to inform the elf that gave the quest you can choose to either recieve the gold, ask for more or say that the gold is no needed. If the third option is the one selected, then the character recieves a bonus to xp for not accepting gold or asking/demanding more. We need more dungeons with quests like these instead of just dungeons without any.

As for looting crypts, if a DM said it was acceptable to do, I don't see why a paladin could not. Also remember paladins cannot simply keep everything that they find. They have to tithe at least 10% of their income so in a way they are helping their church. If Holance finds a belt called "Lathander Belt of Priestly might" he will try to give it to a lathanderite PC for free (If Im allowed) or return it to the church/NPC temples. (Ask Extropy if you don't believe me )

He of course would not sell an artifact of a goodly/neutral faith and he would try to destroy an artifact of an evil faith. I still think folks should mind their own characters more and strive to leave others to their own characters if they do not directly affect them. Most of the times we are not there to see everything that a character is doing, so we think it is easy to judge their actions, even if it is not.

[Fenix]

May 31, 2014 9:13:11 GMT -5 Razgriz said:

May 31, 2014 5:55:52 GMT -5 Defunct Fiddlesticks said:

Well, here's a solution.

Some of you here are on the build team, I believe? So, redesign all crypts and dungeons containing tombs to give ALL alignments fair compensation for clearing out undead - if they graverob or not.

If someone who doesn't want to loot tombs goes to clear a crypt, he should be given the option of not looting tombs and having a fair financial reward given to him at the end to replace what he has spent on clearing out undead.

If someone who doesn't care about graverobbing comes along to do the same job then give them the option of looting, getting a graverobber token and being barred from getting the same finanical compensation the first guy did.

That's fair and balanced. Both sides get rewarded financially and no one is at a disadvantage.

Right now if you go into a tomb and don't loot, then you are at a disadvantage. Some people don't loot, some characters don't due to their alignments, they're poorer than someone who does.

Now I can hear the complaints about that statement forming in certain people's minds "but why do they need to be rewarded, good alignments don't care about money for doing the right thing, etc" but mechanically it means other people get rewarded for doing what is right for their character be they evil, neutral, whatever....while some good or lawful alignments don't and get poorer for it? To me that doesn't sound like a fair "ask".

Give people who do not loot graves the option to be fairly compensated for their efforts.

This.

And Fenix....You are not the only one who has not accepted DM rewards.

I never quite claimed I was. Its more stating that even given loot as a reward, yiure not being forced to take it

[Defunct Fiddlesticks]

May 31, 2014 10:05:21 GMT -5 megascorpion said:

May 31, 2014 5:55:52 GMT -5 Defunct Fiddlesticks said:

Well, here's a solution.

Some of you here are on the build team, I believe? So, redesign all crypts and dungeons containing tombs to give ALL alignments fair compensation for clearing out undead - if they graverob or not.

If someone who doesn't want to loot tombs goes to clear a crypt, he should be given the option of not looting tombs and having a fair financial reward given to him at the end to replace what he has spent on clearing out undead.

If someone who doesn't care about graverobbing comes along to do the same job then give them the option of looting, getting a graverobber token and being barred from getting the same finanical compensation the first guy did.

That's fair and balanced. Both sides get rewarded financially and no one is at a disadvantage.

Right now if you go into a tomb and don't loot, then you are at a disadvantage. Some people don't loot, some characters don't due to their alignments, they're poorer than someone who does.

Now I can hear the complaints about that statement forming in certain people's minds "but why do they need to be rewarded, good alignments don't care about money for doing the right thing, etc" but mechanically it means other people get rewarded for doing what is right for their character be they evil, neutral, whatever....while some good or lawful alignments don't and get poorer for it? To me that doesn't sound like a fair "ask".

Give people who do not loot graves the option to be fairly compensated for their efforts.

Uhm, I couldn't disagree more with this post honestly! The whole point of graverobbing is to earn a bit of an extra buck, the risk should be in getting caught and the consequences of that (Either stigma among other adventurers, or with the law, or both). Even if the risk is minor, Paladins 'really' should not be earning the same kind of coin as Mr. Evil Greedyguy, that's the whole point of being a greedy evil guy! I've barely had any characters who have robbed graves, and they suffered economically for it, just as my paladin too suffered from donating most of her wealth to the rebuilding effort of Arabel. It is something that 'should' happen when you refuse to break the law to earn some gold, or decide to donate your gold for a just cause(Or unjust for that matter) you should end up poorer. Just as if your character is willing to kill an unarmed foe they are at an advantage against someone who is not when it comes to doing that. Or an anti-social character when it comes to finding friends and adventuring parties and so on and so forth.

As for the rest of the discussion. I do think people should keep in mind what it is their characters are actually doing, even when looting, the problem with the coffins and especially the graverobber token one in my opinion, is that it is not 'clear' what is actually going on, and what the character is actually doing.

Just to make a point but not all Lawful Good characters are paladins. And where does it say they have to be poor? They have to buy equipment, pay for healing, tithe to their god, give away money to good causes. They have to have some income to do that(granted they will be poor after it, but they still have to get the money from somewhere in the first place)...but this is going off topic and becoming another debate about paladins again so I'm shutting up now.

I do get what you'e saying, I have to because my Ilmateri priest is poverty avowed, no coin whatsever.

What I am debating is not about that, it's about fairness and options. And with that. I bow out.

[Extropy]

May 31, 2014 9:42:10 GMT -5 @ferrynik said:

I think it would be nice if one could craft healing kits using herbs. And also those characters that refuse to loot could get compensation in exp points.

While you cannot craft anything as good as a healing kit, the healing herbs can be crafted into higher powered healing salves & balms that scale somewhat based on the heal skill of the user.

[Lokarn]

May 31, 2014 8:33:14 GMT -5 @sharauvyn said:

To Lokarn:

This post is about respect for other people's views, and I have two real points to make. You've said above that one of your comments should be taken in a "professor talking to students" tone. The fact you would take this tone says to me that you see yourself as someone who is in a position to teach other people, while other people are in a position to learn from you. Personally, I find this position a somewhat distasteful one to take, simply because it implies that your thoughts are more informed, better developed, or otherwise more worthy of acceptance than other people's ideas are. I don't think I have to explain how that might seem a bit disrespectful to me, when we as players are supposedly all on equal footing here.

The second point I'd like to make is that different people are affected differently in terms of what draws them into the game, breaks their immersion, fosters respect, or damages credibility to them. No person can expect everyone else to be drawn in, to not have immersion broken, to be drawn to respect the game, or to not feel a lessening of credibility over the same things in the same way as themself. If someone comes in and says, "This damages the credibility of the game to me," then to them, it damages the credibility of the game. At that point, it is now up to the rest of us to accept the fact that this damages the credibility of the game to them, and if we are interested in *everyone's* immersion in and enjoyment of the game, it is now up to us to decide how we are going to rectify that so that everyone can immerse in and enjoy the game. We don't get to rewire other people's brains. But we can either fix the issue in the game that's giving some people trouble, or accept the fact that there might be people running around with tokens in their inventory which they ignore, which really doesn't affect anyone else's game play anyways, because none of us players can see the tokens there anyways.

As for "robbing graves," again, people have come in and said why they don't take this idea seriously in certain contexts in the game, and a DM has given a ruling either on this thread or the DM Q&A thread, I forget which, about the fact that it is legally and morally permissible to take things from undead lairs. Again, I think a degree of respect for the way other people interpret the game in their own mind is in order. No one is asking you to loot things you think are wrong to loot or to ignore the token in question. But I think the fact that others find the credibility of these things to be questionable in their own mind deserves some respect and room to breathe.

EDIT: After reading a little more of this thread, I think I'm going to have to tack a, "To Fenix" on this post as well.

... you simply can't win with some folks I guess.

The sentence that you have chosen to perceive in this way was referencing one other sentence of mine. I said that sentence specifically due to when I re-read that one sentence, it could have been taken as rude due to text's inability to convey tone. Thus, I added this sentence that you have chosen to focus on simply to add tone to the one of mine that I knew could be taken negatively.

Secondly, Munroe's answer is careful NOT to make it go either way. It allows for the action to be illegal, AND legal. I have already covered this on a previous post.

This thread isn't about me changing your view on looting graves, it's about me sharing with everyone another viewpoint that exists regarding role play of looting tombs. I created it in the Roleplay, Ideas, and suggestions area of the forums to help convey this.

I debate, I challenge your views, I poke holes in your own thoughts so that you review them. You ultimately decide what you think, and I like this. I enjoy discussing things that have many view points associated with them because it also helps me re-think my own views.

Stop being so sensitive. Everyone is not out to get you. I even like most of you. Disagreeing noes not = dislike nor does challenging your views.

[Lokarn]

Please, stop making posts here about the game's mechanics in this thread. Discuss the roleplay aspects covered under looting graves, discuss the consequences of looting or not looting graves. Stay on topic, if you think changes need to be made in an area, there is another forum area for that topic. Thanks.

[Extropy]

With respect to 'rebalancing all the crypts/undead areas' ... we are slowly going through the server and updating to the new loot system. This is definitely something that can be evaluated at that time ... but recognize that it's a slow, background activity while we add other new content.

As an example, the crypt south of VR has had its loot updated a few times & has a fair amount of chests & visible loot like swords, potions, etc that are not in graves. Yes, you might still be giving up some treasure to not loot graves. But you're not giving up 50% of it. If there is a specific area where you think too much loot is tied up in 'restricted' loot sources, let me know and maybe we can get to that sooner.

That being said, I play a paladin myself (when I can scrounge the time anyway) and I haven't found significant issues with not looting graves/etc. As a full melee class that has long term attribute buffs, medium term greater magic weapon and short term damage buffs, I don't end up strapped for cash on that character. I'd much rather make slightly less gold in one dungeon (or even a loss once in awhile) than go OOC to loot stuff. If I felt a dungeon wasn't playable without looting sanctified containers, I'd probably change that dungeon. So let me know if you think one of the dungeons is in that extreme of a situation..

Also consider what is more memorable from an rp perspective & might lead to interesting rp conflicts: A paladin who steadfastly protested the party rogue's attempt to loot a grave and caused the party to scrape by with a paltry gain? Or the paladin who just went ooc: // go ahead and loot that, we need the gold!

As for compensation? You get RP! RP is the best compensation. Three weeks later no one will remember how much xp they got on a particular trip.

[Razgriz]

May 31, 2014 13:26:56 GMT -5 Extropy said:

With respect to 'rebalancing all the crypts/undead areas' ... we are slowly going through the server and updating to the new loot system. This is definitely something that can be evaluated at that time ... but recognize that it's a slow, background activity while we add other new content.

As an example, the crypt south of VR has had its loot updated a few times & has a fair amount of chests & visible loot like swords, potions, etc that are not in graves. Yes, you might still be giving up some treasure to not loot graves. But you're not giving up 50% of it. If there is a specific area where you think too much loot is tied up in 'restricted' loot sources, let me know and maybe we can get to that sooner.

That being said, I play a paladin myself (when I can scrounge the time anyway) and I haven't found significant issues with not looting graves/etc. As a full melee class that has long term attribute buffs, medium term greater magic weapon and short term damage buffs, I don't end up strapped for cash on that character. I'd much rather make slightly less gold in one dungeon (or even a loss once in awhile) than go OOC to loot stuff. If I felt a dungeon wasn't playable without looting sanctified containers, I'd probably change that dungeon. So let me know if you think one of the dungeons is in that extreme of a situation..

Also consider what is more memorable from an rp perspective & might lead to interesting rp conflicts: A paladin who steadfastly protested the party rogue's attempt to loot a grave and caused the party to scrape by with a paltry gain? Or the paladin who just went ooc: // go ahead and loot that, we need the gold!

As for compensation? You get RP! RP is the best compensation. Three weeks later no one will remember how much xp they got on a particular trip.

Its not about containers Extropy, I think they mean the entire crypt. The only time Holance touched a grave/coffin he got the grave robber token. He however has taken the loot from crates, bone piles, chests and other stuff found inside crypts without any negative consequence.

[Fenix]

May 31, 2014 13:32:30 GMT -5 Razgriz said:

May 31, 2014 13:26:56 GMT -5 Extropy said:

With respect to 'rebalancing all the crypts/undead areas' ... we are slowly going through the server and updating to the new loot system. This is definitely something that can be evaluated at that time ... but recognize that it's a slow, background activity while we add other new content.

As an example, the crypt south of VR has had its loot updated a few times & has a fair amount of chests & visible loot like swords, potions, etc that are not in graves. Yes, you might still be giving up some treasure to not loot graves. But you're not giving up 50% of it. If there is a specific area where you think too much loot is tied up in 'restricted' loot sources, let me know and maybe we can get to that sooner.

That being said, I play a paladin myself (when I can scrounge the time anyway) and I haven't found significant issues with not looting graves/etc. As a full melee class that has long term attribute buffs, medium term greater magic weapon and short term damage buffs, I don't end up strapped for cash on that character. I'd much rather make slightly less gold in one dungeon (or even a loss once in awhile) than go OOC to loot stuff. If I felt a dungeon wasn't playable without looting sanctified containers, I'd probably change that dungeon. So let me know if you think one of the dungeons is in that extreme of a situation..

Also consider what is more memorable from an rp perspective & might lead to interesting rp conflicts: A paladin who steadfastly protested the party rogue's attempt to loot a grave and caused the party to scrape by with a paltry gain? Or the paladin who just went ooc: // go ahead and loot that, we need the gold!

As for compensation? You get RP! RP is the best compensation. Three weeks later no one will remember how much xp they got on a particular trip.

Its not about containers Extropy, I think they mean the entire crypt. The only time Holance touched a grave/coffin he got the grave robber token. He however has taken the loot from crates, bone piles, chests and other stuff found inside crypts without any negative consequence.

No, originally this was about coffins and containers.

[Razgriz]

Better to let Lokarn explain it then. I understood the whole thread as simply NOT touching anything inside the crypt. If I missunderstood sorry about that.

[Lokarn]

May 31, 2014 13:32:30 GMT -5 Razgriz said:

May 31, 2014 13:26:56 GMT -5 Extropy said:

With respect to 'rebalancing all the crypts/undead areas' ... we are slowly going through the server and updating to the new loot system. This is definitely something that can be evaluated at that time ... but recognize that it's a slow, background activity while we add other new content.

As an example, the crypt south of VR has had its loot updated a few times & has a fair amount of chests & visible loot like swords, potions, etc that are not in graves. Yes, you might still be giving up some treasure to not loot graves. But you're not giving up 50% of it. If there is a specific area where you think too much loot is tied up in 'restricted' loot sources, let me know and maybe we can get to that sooner.

That being said, I play a paladin myself (when I can scrounge the time anyway) and I haven't found significant issues with not looting graves/etc. As a full melee class that has long term attribute buffs, medium term greater magic weapon and short term damage buffs, I don't end up strapped for cash on that character. I'd much rather make slightly less gold in one dungeon (or even a loss once in awhile) than go OOC to loot stuff. If I felt a dungeon wasn't playable without looting sanctified containers, I'd probably change that dungeon. So let me know if you think one of the dungeons is in that extreme of a situation..

Also consider what is more memorable from an rp perspective & might lead to interesting rp conflicts: A paladin who steadfastly protested the party rogue's attempt to loot a grave and caused the party to scrape by with a paltry gain? Or the paladin who just went ooc: // go ahead and loot that, we need the gold!

As for compensation? You get RP! RP is the best compensation. Three weeks later no one will remember how much xp they got on a particular trip.

Its not about containers Extropy, I think they mean the entire crypt. The only time Holance touched a grave/coffin he got the grave robber token. He however has taken the loot from crates, bone piles, chests and other stuff found inside crypts without any negative consequence.

I wanted to respond differently, but I won't. Instead I will ask you some questions.

Who is "they"?

What does " they mean he entire crypt." mean?

Who has said anything about not looting "crypts"? ( I assume I know the answers to my questions, though I may be wrong. )

[Razgriz]

May 31, 2014 13:42:45 GMT -5 Lokarn said:

May 31, 2014 13:32:30 GMT -5 Razgriz said:

Its not about containers Extropy, I think they mean the entire crypt. The only time Holance touched a grave/coffin he got the grave robber token. He however has taken the loot from crates, bone piles, chests and other stuff found inside crypts without any negative consequence.

I wanted to respond differently, but I won't. Instead I will ask you some questions.

Who is "they"?

What does " they mean he entire crypt." mean?

Who has said anything about not looting "crypts"? ( I assume I know the answers to my questions, though I may be wrong. )

"they" would be the forum users saying it is not good/acceptable.

"The entire crypt" would be the coffins, the crates, the chests and what the undead foes carry. If it was just the coffins and sealed crypt rooms, then my sincere apologies. For some reason it sounded to me like you guys were meaning every bit of loot found inside the crypts of the server.

If this is just about looting coffins, sarcophagi and such then I very much agree that every LG char or paladin should really have a good reason for doing it.

[Lokarn]

May 31, 2014 13:52:31 GMT -5 Razgriz said:

May 31, 2014 13:42:45 GMT -5 Lokarn said:

I wanted to respond differently, but I won't. Instead I will ask you some questions.

Who is "they"?

What does " they mean he entire crypt." mean?

Who has said anything about not looting "crypts"? ( I assume I know the answers to my questions, though I may be wrong. )

"they" would be the forum users saying it is not good/acceptable.

"The entire crypt" would be the coffins, the crates, the chests and what the undead foes carry. If it was just the coffins and sealed crypt rooms, then my sincere apologies. For some reason it sounded to me like you guys were meaning every bit of loot found inside the crypts of the server.

If this is just about looting coffins, sarcophagi and such then I very much agree that every LG char or paladin should really have a good reason for doing it.

That's what I thought you meant.

I am confident I can say that those of us saying that looting "graves" mean just "graves" A box is not a grave, a treasure chest is not a grave, a pile of bones is not a grave unless it's description leads you to believe it is.

[StabbingNirvana]

Like merc said, anything inside a crypt that is taken, not just from coffins, could be seen as grave robbing. Loot inside crypts should be highly diminished by extreme rp standards, considering they have been plundered likely thousands of times by groups in the passed 10 years.

There should be NPCs offering standard gold fair at the entrance of crypts as a reward for completion, removing the need for placeable containers.

[Lokarn]

For clarity.

crypt
crypt [kript]
noun
1.
a subterranean chamber or vault, especially one beneath the main floor of a church, used as a burial place, a location for secret meetings, etc.

Crypts are not graves, they may contain graves, but are not themselves a grave.

[StabbingNirvana]

So things in burial chambers suddenly dont belong to the person buried in that chamber? The riches of the pharaohs were only those items in their sarcophagi? Are people walking through the chamber and accidentally dropping gold and items in the chambers for others to take during weekly strolls leaving thousands upon thousands of gold for adventurers to claim on a weekly basis? Suspension of belief for the weekly run through, but never for looting! No, never for looting!

[Fenix]

May 31, 2014 14:12:04 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

So things in burial chambers suddenly dont belong to the person buried in that chamber? The riches of the pharaohs were only those items in their sarcaohagi?

Okay were gonna do this simply.

A ====CRYPT==== is not a grave. They are common to BE GRAVES. A BURIAL CHAMBER is a BURIAL CHAMBER. Not a crypt. There is a drastoc difference. The pyramids were constructed as an entire giant dedicated coffin to those pharohs. The burial chambers are the coffin itself, and the sarcophogi brraking it down further to prevent them rising from the dead.

[StabbingNirvana]

A chamber is a room. A coffin would be akin to a closet. A crypt is the greater complex comprised of chambers which are in turn comprised of coffins. People in a chamber would likely be related in one way or another and the items left there would be meant for the people in the coffins.

[Lokarn]

May 31, 2014 14:38:05 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

A chamber is a room. A coffin would be akin to a closet. A crypt is the greater complex comprised of chambers which are in turn comprised of coffins. People in a chamber would likely be related in one way or another and the items left there would be meant for the people in the coffins.

So then by your argument you are saying that you see taking anything from a crypt to be grave robbing. Gotcha. Are you saying your paladin still robs graves then? That seems to go against the concept of paladins. I don't follow your line of reasoning, but if you see it that way, cool.

[Lokarn]

May 31, 2014 14:12:04 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

So things in burial chambers suddenly dont belong to the person buried in that chamber? The riches of the pharaohs were only those items in their sarcophagi? Are people walking through the chamber and accidentally dropping gold and items in the chambers for others to take during weekly strolls leaving thousands upon thousands of gold for adventurers to claim on a weekly basis? Suspension of belief for the weekly run through, but never for looting! No, never for looting!

Let's get your real world point taken care of first. All objects in a pyramid are known at this point to be items intentionally entombed with the dead to ease in the passing to the other side. You would have to be ignorant, or just plain oblivious to fail to see that at this point in time. This also doesn't remotely correlate to our game world.

Crypts on FRC do not represent a familial tomb. They seem to me to represent a graveyard for the areas in which they exist. Some of them, like the necropolis do have smaller sections that could be seen as being a section for one family or another. The other crypts all seem to have numerous graves inside and I would imagine they are a general crypt used to keep the dead underground.

Our PCs know that undead exist, they know that undead are in these crypts that they venture to. It is not unreasonable to think that some of these undead have removed items buried in their graves with them. These things no longer exist inside a grave. They were not removed by your PC from a grave, thus your PC would not be robbing a grave by picking them up. If you believe this is still an act of grave robbing then have your PC react accordingly in character.