Grave robbing and you.

[Fenix]

May 23, 2014 13:14:34 GMT -5 Lokarn said:

Hello everyone. The recent posts in the DM Q&A thread about "accidentally" robbing a grave and receiving a glowy red mark on ones hand has interested me. So I would like to discuss the ins, and outs of taking things from the dead, and how your PC perceives this act.

Taking things from any grave, urn, sarcophagus, what have you is robbing the dead. Generally this is an act of willful disrespect to the dead. Your PC is taking things buried with the dead so that they may sell them and get more gear, supplies, or whatever your PC is into.

I was most curious at just how many Players have PCs who do not role play the marks on their hands. This is only my opinion, but if you earned a grave robbers mark, it should be at the least role played each time you meet a new PC, and every once in a while after that. It's a brightly glowing letter that all can see from anywhere near you even through your gloves, other barriers. I was surprised at just how many paladins have a grave robbing mark, are you all going through all the other crypts robbing all of those graves as well? Paladins should be ashamed of yourselves for robbing graves, weather a script gives you a mark or not. I find that very disappointing.

OOCly, yes it means you will bypass a lot of loot in a crypt area. My good PC loses out on a lot of loot because of it, but he is slaying undead and that is reward as well. Sure, it's costly, you use more supplies with less ability to replenish them, but them's the breaks.

Anyway, I didn't want to be one of the folks who post in DM Q&A's so I started this here instead.

As far as the OP, Fenix sees nothing inherently wrong with grave robbing, as its not really graverobbing to him. A lot of nature is reusing and revitalizing things that are currently in existence, to better save the resources that we have. Fenix NEVER sells his old equipment to shops. He just hands it down to someone who can use it, and asks them to do the same thing. If something can be used by someone, why leave it to rot and degrade in the dirt for hundreds of years, instead of simply removing it to pass it onward for someone to use it once more? In reality, there are many things you can actually reuse and revitalize for usage once more.

That being said, Fenix actually does have the graverobber token, and I rped it for a while. I remade him and lost it, and I actually DO want it back, to RP with it. I just dont actually know where the crypt is, since I was brought there with epics when I was really low level to help on a rescue. I have no idea how to get back there.

That being said, there is nothing OOC about the mark. There is a cleric outside, if I recall properly, that TELLS you that this is a crypt of Kelemvor. SPEICIFICALLY KELEMVOR. And to let the dead and their belongings rest.

NOT EVERY CRYPT is Kelemvorite. There are crypts outside Valkur's Roar that could easily be dedicated and under the protecting of Valkur, there are crypts to Silvanus and his faithful, and all deities. Kelemvor is the god of the dead, but necessarily, he does not protect every single crypt at any given time. You are stealing from HIS FAITHFUL directly. People who dedicated to him their lives, and have been blessed to be buried in his crypts. Going in to purge the undead, that is not desecrating those bodies. You are releasing the souls that were forcibly bound there, and allowing them to find peace again. The bodies may get mutilated, but they become corpses once more. No longer under the rule and slavery of undeath. Because a body is not in the crypt, does not make that no longer a grave. My father is dead since I was 13, and has been buried. If he was dug up 100 years from now, his grave would have still existed there at some point. Grave robbers who steal from graves by digging up coffins dont make those graves no longer graves. They may remove something, even the body, but it was still a grave in the end.

The server does not condition you to pick up loot from everything everywhere. That is player choice right there. There is NO reason to loot every container where you walk. The only request is we loot BODIES to keep lag down. The containers are irrelevant. They do not spawn loot until opened, and are just there for people who would actively open them. You can walk through an entire area and not loot a single container. The only reason anybody does is because its a game, and you choose to do so. Would you walk down the street in real life and start going through people's trash and walking into their houses to take stuff while walking up the block? No? Why not, the "containers" are all there for a reason!

Destroying undead, I repeat this, is not evil. Thats just foolish to even say right there. Undeath is the forceful binding of a soul into a corpse for the purpose of it serving someone, or just being placed against its will. In most cases. You are taking something that was at peace, and forcing it to bend to your will, and the action is defined as an evil action every time. Killing the undead, thereby releasing the bound souls, is not desecration of the corpse. You may be harming it, but you are not defiling it, you are freeing it. I have times where I RP slaying the undead, then carrying the corpses back to the nearest coffins that are in the area to lay them back to rest.

As far as Paladins stealing from Crypts, I don't recall ever hearing something about them taking every little object to continue their crusade. If it is a sensible thing, such as offered food, or a replacement weapon, that makes sense and I can understand that. But I doubt a paladin needs 18 skeletal fingers, a fine urn, somebody's old pants, someones 15 coins that was put in their grave, a picture of their dog, and a shoelace to continue their crusade. I mean, if those are being put to use, you probably shouldn't sell them, that is if they are important to the crusade. That case it would more just be a justification to steal from a crypt more than anything. Youre hocking goods you stole from some dead guy. Thats not really helping you, its making you rich.

[Razgriz]

You know what? Challenge accepted. At least for me and if that is how it should be, then Im ok with it. Has Holance or my other LG chars looted from crypts before? Yes, this is a game after all and as much shock as it is, Im almost sure that in like 10 years of FRC no official ruling has been stated for this IC issue yet.

If looting from crypts (not only the coffins) is as bad as using posions if the character is a paladin, or someone that should behave as one....Then sure, why not add that to the list too? Im fine with that as long as it is an official rule and not a rule or condition made up just because someone saw something that they felt was wrong. My point here is that some things are being enforced while others are not. Aside of this token, I don't know of anyone getting evil/chaotic points or a punishment for taking what is inside a crypt.

Holance has not however taken things that were inside coffins or so since he got the mark about a year ago. I even added him having a small scar of sorts on his description, meaning that the mark was indeed gone, but that something remained. Probably to help him remember his mistake.

Still, the grave robber token system is far from perfect. If you want it to be as real and as hardcore as possible, then make it appear randomly. In other words, add a small chance to get the token if you take ANYTHING from any crypt. This way it could mean Kelemvor catched you, regradless of where you are and if the place was guarded or not.

[DOT]

May 23, 2014 23:09:43 GMT -5 Razgriz said:

...point here is that some things are being enforced while others are not...


...If you want it to be as real and as hardcore as possible, then make it appear randomly...

That, yes to that. To me, it is all or nothing with this. If we're siding with mechanics that skew so heavily to a specific portion of the population,  then as a player group there shouldn't be any picking and choosing (ex. ironwood/metallic shield claw/bracer vs druid ethos would not be rp'd as a none-metallic item... it looks metal, therefore it must be metal = no claw/shield bracer for druids)

On a similar note, it is the intent of the action that can sway how it is viewed. What is one man's act of sin (grave robbing), is another man's act for the greater good. One man's terrorist is another man's patriot. Was robin hood a thief of the rich or a hero of the poor.

It's perspective, and quite frankly if we're hard-lining looting as an act of stealing or desecration and tossing possible rp regarding out the door, then let's just throw down and go all in... bring on higher level spells that require reagents. Put in an eat/drink/rest system that causes a decrease in your abilities if you dont do them regularly. don't forget to pray, because if you dont pray often then you'll lose favor with your deity. All the animals in the wild, become wild... no specially tamed wolves boars bears, you get too close they'll attack. Maybe I go too far with those points, but this is what things look like at the moment.... as for the examples, I've seen them done, and it decreases on the fun factor.  


What needs to be changed is the tomb, because that kelemvorite sitting in front is failing so hard at keeping it clean.


EDIT: added some

[appleseedy]

i don't see this is as being a server rule i see it as being a point of rp, if you don't want to bother with it that's fine, were here to have fun after all.

[StabbingNirvana]

All in all, the best way to deal with this would be to put a dialogue window on the coffins on hand that tell you the coffin is undisturbed, much like the coffins in the necropolis where you stake the vampires.

"This coffin appears to be undisturbed, the man inside still in eternal rest. Do you wish to continue looting? Yay or nay?"

Choosing "yay" obviously is the option that gives you loot. "Nay" returning you to your undead destroying.

Tabbing and clicking on the glowy objects is what we do in this game. Its been a part of it for 10 years with the exception of one or two dungeons. Its how the reward mechanism of the game works. Besides, if you're not looting the corpses of the undead, (still grave robbing?) you're lagging up the server.

[Lokarn]

Wow some of you are getting dramatic about this. Merc, there is no rule, nothing is being enforced someplace and not in other places. It's as simple as Kelemvore watching over his crypt, and punishing people foolish enough to steal from his faithful who happen to be buried there.

Talo, what? Tell me when taking some meaningless to your PC item from a grave to sell to some merchant is a greater good. Unless you're on some DM plot or other player plot where you really need some specific thing from a specific grave I can't see stealing a platinum spoon from random guy, who was turned to an undead as a greater good for anything.

Since when does a corpse being turned into an undead mean that the grave is not his any longer, or that it isn't a grave? As far as I know, aside from the few intelligent undead that exist, undead do not go around gathering loot and hide it in graves. They are for the most part mindless things with no motivation other than to do what they are commanded by their creator.

What's with the angst about this? Is it because you really want the loot, or is it that in one particular crypt your PC is warned to not touch the graves, and you do anyhow and are marked?

There is plenty of warning. Most sane people would consider taking something buried with the dead to be at best a very bad manner, at worst a willful act of desecration. What is it that has you bothered so much?

[Pedantry INC]

I don't think people are being dramatic, Lokarn, I think they're just getting frustrated that you appear completely unwilling to grant that any opinion beside your own has even the faintest bit of truth. Just my view though.


At level 1 we enter a crypt where we learn that undead sometimes rise from coffins if they're touched. Sometimes they don't rise from coffins. Some of us interpret that as "undead can hide in coffins, therefor we need to check the coffins for undead" while some of us think it's better to never touch a coffin, no matter what is inside. I guess it's a matter of see no evil to some. If you can't see it on the outside, it doesn't exist, right? Others are more concerned with the darkness hidden behind the rose tinted view. They'd rather take precautions and check to see if that coffin has someone resting, or an undead waiting to burst forth.

There is -no distinguishing mark- that discerns one from the other. None. Until you hit crypts with the stake the vampire conversation, no graves tell you 'this has an undead in it' or 'this is fine'.

In the kelemvorite crypt the sealed graves in the 'upper' location are obvious. The one that is giving people this token is an unmarked, wooden box at an angle that is easily thought of as a loot container. It doesn't look like a coffin at first glance, it isn't presented like the other sealed graves.


As for dumping items into containers, OOCly we are required to 'clean up' after ourselves - thereby picking up all the garbage on corpses. We've been told not to use the trashcan on our radial menu frequently as it causes lag. When I get an inventory of bones I don't want, I don't consider them something my pc would pick up, it's an OOC rule that forces me to do so. I OOCly shove them in the next convenient container at hand so that they're cleaned up the lag free way. If we are forced into actions our characters wouldn't take in the first place, in my mind, it's pretty plain to take ooc actions to make sure we don't profit from them (or suffer from a completely full inventory for them either). Mirrir doesn't collect bones from undead. Ew!

[Lokarn]

May 23, 2014 13:14:34 GMT -5 Lokarn said:

Hello everyone. The recent posts in the DM Q&A thread about "accidentally" robbing a grave and receiving a glowy red mark on ones hand has interested me. So I would like to discuss the ins, and outs of taking things from the dead, and how your PC perceives this act.

Taking things from any grave, urn, sarcophagus, what have you is robbing the dead. Generally this is an act of willful disrespect to the dead. Your PC is taking things buried with the dead so that they may sell them and get more gear, supplies, or whatever your PC is into.

I was most curious at just how many Players have PCs who do not role play the marks on their hands. This is only my opinion, but if you earned a grave robbers mark, it should be at the least role played each time you meet a new PC, and every once in a while after that. It's a brightly glowing letter that all can see from anywhere near you even through your gloves, other barriers. I was surprised at just how many paladins have a grave robbing mark, are you all going through all the other crypts robbing all of those graves as well? Paladins should be ashamed of yourselves for robbing graves, weather a script gives you a mark or not. I find that very disappointing.

OOCly, yes it means you will bypass a lot of loot in a crypt area. My good PC loses out on a lot of loot because of it, but he is slaying undead and that is reward as well. Sure, it's costly, you use more supplies with less ability to replenish them, but them's the breaks.

Anyway, I didn't want to be one of the folks who post in DM Q&A's so I started this here instead.

Pedantry, I think you misunderstand me. I am willing to accept that other opinions are valid, I just force them to be defended before I accept them. I accept that it allows for that perception. That's fine.

I think mostly the issue is I am interested in discussing the looting of graves, and others are discussing the issue of looting graves in one specific crypt on the server.

I quoted my original post to reiterate my interest in discussing what grave robbing is, and what it means. The mark issue is already in the DM Q&A and I believe them more than able to handle that discussion. It's not my place to worry about scripts and how they are implemented. I think a lot of people simply never think about what taking things from graves actually is. I didn't for a long while. Loot was loot. We all must learn things.

My understanding is this:

Players feel they have been given the mark unfairly in most cases.
Some of them feel that if an undead is inside, or comes out of a grave it means it is no longer a grave.
Others have been sleepy while looting and were not paying attention. Others still like you were checking for undead inside the grave and while doing so used that time to oocly dispose of items into the
grave. Just ignore this I was attempting to respond to someone, and it just muddies the water of the intended discussion.

My interest as I said is in terms of players actually looting the graves. This is an IC act, done to gain loot. I'm too lazy to look up the actual source on grave robbing, but I am fairly certain it's a crime, and it's an act of evil. I could be wrong there.

Edit: I looked, and found this in the laws of Cormyr section of the forums;

The Third Plaint: Crimes Against the Gods

Serious

Tomb-Robbing:
- Fine: 5,000 lions payable to offended party + Compensation of any missing and broken materials (set at maximum of 5,000 lions)
- Imprisonment: Dungeon - 5 Days

So yea, definitely a crime. Now the question is, when is a grave not a grave?

I am not trying to discuss the game mechanics of the script, or the descriptions of the graves. I'm trying to discuss the IC actions of looting graves. I'm not on the build team, so I don't see how the scripts are implemented, nor do I think that topic matters here.

Do you disagree that looting things from graves is grave robbing?
If so, when is it not? Is there a rule in PnP that says if an undead comes from a grave that it's now not a grave? I am unaware of this if it exists.

Here, my question is more in general to all, not just Pedantry.

[Fenix]

May 24, 2014 4:45:43 GMT -5 Pedantry INC said:

I don't think people are being dramatic, Lokarn, I think they're just getting frustrated that you appear completely unwilling to grant that any opinion beside your own has even the faintest bit of truth. Just my view though.


At level 1 we enter a crypt where we learn that undead sometimes rise from coffins if they're touched. Sometimes they don't rise from coffins. Some of us interpret that as "undead can hide in coffins, therefor we need to check the coffins for undead" while some of us think it's better to never touch a coffin, no matter what is inside. I guess it's a matter of see no evil to some. If you can't see it on the outside, it doesn't exist, right? Others are more concerned with the darkness hidden behind the rose tinted view. They'd rather take precautions and check to see if that coffin has someone resting, or an undead waiting to burst forth.

There is -no distinguishing mark- that discerns one from the other. None. Until you hit crypts with the stake the vampire conversation, no graves tell you 'this has an undead in it' or 'this is fine'.

In the kelemvorite crypt the sealed graves in the 'upper' location are obvious. The one that is giving people this token is an unmarked, wooden box at an angle that is easily thought of as a loot container. It doesn't look like a coffin at first glance, it isn't presented like the other sealed graves.


As for dumping items into containers, OOCly we are required to 'clean up' after ourselves - thereby picking up all the garbage on corpses. We've been told not to use the trashcan on our radial menu frequently as it causes lag. When I get an inventory of bones I don't want, I don't consider them something my pc would pick up, it's an OOC rule that forces me to do so. I OOCly shove them in the next convenient container at hand so that they're cleaned up the lag free way. If we are forced into actions our characters wouldn't take in the first place, in my mind, it's pretty plain to take ooc actions to make sure we don't profit from them (or suffer from a completely full inventory for them either). Mirrir doesn't collect bones from undead. Ew!

Just in response to the disposing of items

Ive heard most dms say the opposite. I was told and encouraged to just trash can things immediately if you dont want them, because putting them in loot containers o ly creates lag by having the cleaning scripts have to run for them. If the trash can wasndoing so, I imagine extropy would just remove the script. But its nothing much more than a shop script accessible from a menu. So that would mean selling to any shop as well is creating lag too.

Regardless. Checking the tombs for undead is one thing. You dont get the mark from checking the tomb. You get it from stealing from the tomb or defiling it by putting items in. There doesnt need to be a marking on the crypts. Theres a guy that WARNS everyone when they go in not to defile the crypts that are UNDER THE WATCH of Kelemvor. That should leave reason enough not to steal.


Aa for the original op AGAIN, my pc acknowledges the fact defilement of a grave such as grave robbing is a thing, but he does so regardless. It is revitalization of natures resources rather than tearing down more to make the same thing. If someone can use the items, well then there you go. He can use the gold to purchase more healing kits to treat people with, make salves and poultices for the sick, and use these resources to his advantage

[Deleted]

May 23, 2014 20:11:34 GMT -5 Lokarn said:

As far as the "well it's already tainted, so robbing the graves is fine!" argument.... uhm... no. That's like arguing since Greatgaunt is already all kinds of messed up, that you should just go around killing random people because it's tainted so who cares?

Uh ... no. Just, no. That's not even apples and oranges, that's like comparing apples and tuna fish. There are a lot of leaps in logic there that just aren't going to fly.

[Deleted]

May 24, 2014 6:03:06 GMT -5 Fenix said:

Regardless. Checking the tombs for undead is one thing. You dont get the mark from checking the tomb. You get it from stealing from the tomb or defiling it by putting items in. There doesnt need to be a marking on the crypts. Theres a guy that WARNS everyone when they go in not to defile the crypts that are UNDER THE WATCH of Kelemvor. That should leave reason enough not to steal.

If that's actually so, then okay, it sounds a bit more fair. As people were talking about it before, it sounded a bit more like an, "Ah ha! Gotcha!" This is more reasonable. I'd still support the idea that maybe a little more clarity about which crypts are "under the watch of Kelemvor" and which ones aren't might be in order if well meaning people are still stumbling into it. If people who just don't care are the only ones getting the mark, that's one thing, but if people who mean to respect "Kelemvor's watching" are still getting hit, then that's the system, not the player.

[Pedantry INC]

Thanks for clarifying, Lokarn o/

As for us hearing different things, Fenix, what I have said comes from the fellow that added the trashcan: Kalbarn. I don't claim to understand why or how it works, but when someone that seems to know better than I, what with being you know, head builder for a time and all, I tend to listen. Maybe Extropy can clear that up for us in another thread. Shoving things into a loot box as an ooc measure to get rid of them as it was ooc to pick them up in the first place has been the method used for much longer than the trashcan in our radial menu. As far as I'm aware, the reason it's better to move the loot from the corpses to the static boxes is that the static boxes are cleared by the area cleaner -regardless-, even if they're empty, they're flushed. Maybe I'm wrong. I can't say.


--

What is graverobbing? This is fickle. I think that a sealed, locked container, if you open it and loot it, that's grave robbing. Of course.. there are locked and sealed containers that have vampires in them. So. How do you draw the line? If you -never- loot coffins, I think you should also never stake vampires. But then I think, if you're good, don't you consider that pretty damn important? I do play a Kelemvorite, and she checks every coffin, opening them carefully, closing them, and resealing them if they were sealed, even placing the traps back if there was a trap. She never takes the loot from them.

Sometimes it's even IC for her to put items into crypts: those rusty armors that heavily encumber her that come from the enemies that pop out at you sometimes? Yea she puts those into the tombs they come from, 'returning them to their eternal rest' now that the animating spirit has been forced out.

OOCly sometimes she drops things into coffins. If there's no other bins around, it happens.


---

Icly there are a lot of arguments to be had. It can become an ooc issue as well, when you consider the mechanics of risk vrs reward.

Graverobbing : Is it -only- the graves? What about burial chests? Bones scattered in tombs that aren't in coffins? If they've fallen out of their resting places in the walls? If it's in a crypt.. technically isn't everything in there property of the dead buried there? I have a hard time knowing where the line is drawn. I tend to agree with Stabbingnirvana on the point that if the crypt is hopelessly defiled by the undead, recovering what can be used in the crusade against them isn't a bad idea.

Similar to Fenix, my druid thinks that coffins and crypts are awful, preventing the bodies from properly rejoining the cycle and she will loot graves all day without a single notion in her ic head about it being a bad thing to do. Waste promotes more industry to create, which hurts the world more. Shame on people that make graves. They're terrible for the world!

One of my pcs justified taking things from a grave by saying "well, the undead keep coming back here, and so do the treasures, so these are obviously gifts from necromancers to the corpses, or to their corpse gods, to awake the bodies here." She knows nothing about necromancy, and no one with her knew much either, so it was settled.

It is very difficult I think to draw the line between "it's an adventure game where we are rewarded for killing our enemies by gaining the right to take the loot from around them." It might be easier if less loot was focused on loot containers, and more viable loot that could pay for the expenses dropped from the actual enemies themselves.

--

Ultimately though, when it comes to the grave robber mark, I think if there is a scripted means to get the mark, there should be a scripted means to remove it. While Lady Frost is awesome and I rarely disagree with her, in this case, I have to. I won't yell at dms all day for their attention. I won't beg and plead and rally and rail until one of them hears me. There are -very few- dms in comparison to players. If a dm is too busy to see a request, or has too many things on their plate to respond to it, that's alright. I'm not here to force them into responding to me. They're not my slaves. I would much rather let them do what they want to do in their own time. If I'm really desperate and it's super important, sure, I'll send a pm or two. But for something like this? No. I took matters into my own hands, did my rp, made my tithes, and consider the matter as much as resolved as it's going to get.



--

As another side note: as far as the guy 'warning you' .. his warning seems to pertain to a specific 'appearance' of graves. The grave that gets you does not have the same appearance. In many cases this does come across as a 'ha gotcha' moment. Especially since you you can also get this mark from another site where there is -no warning given what so ever-. And placables that can give you the mark aren't even coffins, but urns.

[appleseedy]

grave robbing
Web definitions
Grave robbery, grave robbing, or tomb raiding is the act of uncovering a tomb or crypt to steal artifacts or personal effects. Someone who engages in this act is a grave robber or tomb raider. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_robbing

Just saying abd not that this means much in terms of FRC. I think however that "the act of uncovering a tomb with the intention of taking something out" is very shady, in the wiki its refereed to as "stealing!" not removing or checking or taking. opening a tomb with the intention of checking for undead or staking vampires is not stealing, opening tombs isn't stealing.

FRC isn't the real world, you should RP this as you please. Fenix an penantry have offered some roleplayed viewpoints and that's what its about

[Deleted]

May 24, 2014 7:02:26 GMT -5 appleseedy said:

grave robbing
Web definitions
Grave robbery, grave robbing, or tomb raiding is the act of uncovering a tomb or crypt to steal artifacts or personal effects. Someone who engages in this act is a grave robber or tomb raider. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_robbing

Just saying abd not that this means much in terms of FRC. I think however that "the act of uncovering a tomb with the intention of taking something out" is very shady, in the wiki its refereed to as "stealing!" not removing or checking or taking. opening a tomb with the intention of checking for undead or staking vampires is not stealing, opening tombs isn't stealing.

FRC isn't the real world, you should RP this as you please. Fenix an penantry have offered some roleplayed viewpoints and that's what its about

I feel fairly secure in guessing that Wikipedia wasn't counting on undead monsters popping out of the graves someone opens, and that this changes the nature of the scenario.

[quelunia]

All this is about a definition of a grave. It's actually funny that the starter dungeons are encouraged to raid the dungeon. And other crypts are secured by a gods low jack system. Very intriguing. If kelemvor is the god of repose and the dead would it not stand to reason that more crypts would be under his watch than just a handful? How about the starter dungeon why aren't there elven tomb guardians to ensure the elven dead are respected? How about when we look at tomb raiding we look at all the angles?

Paladins by nature are poor broke folks. But they are rich in faith.

How about looking at it this way which came first the undead or the necromancer?

How many clerics and paladins have tried to get dm's involved in cleansing a crypt qnd nailing the necromancer?

Loot is how adventurers pay for gear even paladins. Would it be possible for those morally obligated classes and characters be able to take on a quest to clear and be rewarded in a different fashion?

Get if lawful good get if paladin get if cleric of kelemvor ..: then give quest..:: finish quest give reward be it Xp or gold or an item for slaying undead. That would be more fun.

The one thing lacking is support of the various faiths in frc unless it's against the evil ones. This could open up new avenues.

[Razgriz]

May 24, 2014 4:03:19 GMT -5 Lokarn said:

Wow some of you are getting dramatic about this. Merc, there is no rule, nothing is being enforced someplace and not in other places. It's as simple as Kelemvore watching over his crypt, and punishing people foolish enough to steal from his faithful who happen to be buried there.

I don't mind about that. It is fine if Kelemvor decides to watch that crypt more than the others. My point here is that some of us have seen the crypts all this time(any crypt) as just another dungeon, be it an orc cave or a dragon lair and the loot that is inside as well.

Some have left the loot because they thought it would make sense to leave it there and that it would enhance their RP, which is a cool choice. Others like me simply took it because the crypts of the module have been like any other dungeon to us and the loot on the floor, crates, ect is there for the plyers to take.

There are different levels of seriousness here, and the loot of the crypt could easily be what the undead collected or what non visible necromancers robbed and placed inside. Of course the loot can also be what the dead had, but in the end this seems to be a case where the one exploring the dungeon decides what to do with it and how to play the adventure.

[Deleted]

Well...theres a lot of folk grasping at straws and excuses, its a bit ridiculous.

I'm going to throw out there this: my richest most well off character has only ever been in a crypt once since hitting 6th lvl. So I know for a fact, that OOC concerns about your characters wealth are very unfounded.

A few Undead in a tomb complex hardly constitute the argument that the whole place is already despoiled.

I think most people posting here are wilfully blurring the OOC/IC line, its not up to us to judge them, but I know damn well that it would be a poostorm on the forums if the DMs started taking a closer look at those character actions IG and acting accordingly.

All I have to say in the end is, good on you Grave robbers that now and acknowledge (evil or not) and shame on the moral upstanding characaters that rob graves and blow there horns about goodness and right.

[Razgriz]

This thread has been discussed already, even some DMs shared their opinion.

frc.proboards.com/thread/18492/graverobbing

[megascorpion]

Well, the only char I've ever goten it on was on Veshal, who 'never' robbed a grave in his life, and actively told people to quit it and put the stuff back if the looter in his party ever did. He got the token by putting too heavy stuff in the coffin(This was before the crafting menu trashcan was added though my point still stands).

It should really be a conversation or something, to make it an IC action, not an OOC one with IC consequences, looting is already partly OOC anyways(why are there random bones with gold and magic items lying around all the caves, wouldn't the evil baddies just move that stuff to the treasury or I don't know, use them themselves? Not to mention the massive amount of loot no character would ever ICly pick up, yet we are 'required to' by OOC rules. (Kobold loincloth or shattered dwarf skull anyone?).

Anyhow, point being, I don't rob graves with my characters, I think I've had one who do out of uh, a lot of characters that do. Yet I still think that script is silly, and could be done a 'lot' better to make the player aware of what their character is doing(and indeed, added to all graves that are supposed to be sealed in some form, especially as it is never clear which are and which are not). Or just add "Sealed" to the container names

[Deleted]

May 24, 2014 8:40:06 GMT -5 quelunia said:

All this is about a definition of a grave. It's actually funny that the starter dungeons are encouraged to raid the dungeon. And other crypts are secured by a gods low jack system. Very intriguing. If kelemvor is the god of repose and the dead would it not stand to reason that more crypts would be under his watch than just a handful? How about the starter dungeon why aren't there elven tomb guardians to ensure the elven dead are respected? How about when we look at tomb raiding we look at all the angles?

Absolutely. And while we're at it with gods watching over things, why is Greatgaunt not watched over by Tyr, Torm, Helm, Ilmater, and Tempus simultaneously, because epic level baddasses are always busy trying to conquer farmhouses and cow patties while even polytheistic deities sometimes need to go to the toilet?

I think that's what really gets me about this discussion. Here we have a deity supposedly responding *every single time consistently without fail* to someone opening a damn box, while actual living characters can't even roust Bentin who walks in front of their face all day to deal with an actual lethal threat to living player characters. Something about that seems really, really out of whack to me.

[Razgriz]

Oh and for the LG chars.

frc.proboards.com/thread/18489/dm-acceptable-looting-containers-lg

Yeah...

[Fenix]

May 24, 2014 10:13:34 GMT -5 @sharauvyn said:

May 24, 2014 8:40:06 GMT -5 quelunia said:

All this is about a definition of a grave. It's actually funny that the starter dungeons are encouraged to raid the dungeon. And other crypts are secured by a gods low jack system. Very intriguing. If kelemvor is the god of repose and the dead would it not stand to reason that more crypts would be under his watch than just a handful? How about the starter dungeon why aren't there elven tomb guardians to ensure the elven dead are respected? How about when we look at tomb raiding we look at all the angles?

Absolutely. And while we're at it with gods watching over things, why is Greatgaunt not watched over by Tyr, Torm, Helm, Ilmater, and Tempus simultaneously, because epic level baddasses are always busy trying to conquer farmhouses and cow patties while even polytheistic deities sometimes need to go to the toilet?

I think that's what really gets me about this discussion. Here we have a deity supposedly responding *every single time consistently without fail* to someone opening a damn box, while actual living characters can't even roust Bentin who walks in front of their face all day to deal with an actual lethal threat to living player characters. Something about that seems really, really out of whack to me.

The god protecting his own crypt is much different than the gods of justice or the painbearer handling the gg evils. They dont act upon every single injustice in the world directly. Their followers are tasked with that. If torm came down to deal with every crime, then mask may come to aide with every crimes success. Thus a godwar ensues. Kelemvor marking those who rob HIS crypts isnt that far fetched comparatively.

If you want a god to do something though, rping a line of story about it may be a good idea. The dms are rather accomodating.

[Deleted]

May 24, 2014 11:11:53 GMT -5 Fenix said:

May 24, 2014 10:13:34 GMT -5 @sharauvyn said:

Absolutely. And while we're at it with gods watching over things, why is Greatgaunt not watched over by Tyr, Torm, Helm, Ilmater, and Tempus simultaneously, because epic level baddasses are always busy trying to conquer farmhouses and cow patties while even polytheistic deities sometimes need to go to the toilet?

I think that's what really gets me about this discussion. Here we have a deity supposedly responding *every single time consistently without fail* to someone opening a damn box, while actual living characters can't even roust Bentin who walks in front of their face all day to deal with an actual lethal threat to living player characters. Something about that seems really, really out of whack to me.

The god protecting his own crypt is much different than the gods of justice or the painbearer handling the gg evils. They dont act upon every single injustice in the world directly. Their followers are tasked with that. If torm came down to deal with every crime, then mask may come to aide with every crimes success. Thus a godwar ensues. Kelemvor marking those who rob HIS crypts isnt that far fetched comparatively.

If you want a god to do something though, rping a line of story about it may be a good idea. The dms are rather accomodating.

Fenix ... Kelemvor responding every time someone opens a box ... *Bentin* responds ... how much? Nevermind Tyr, Torm, etc. Let's just talk Bentin.

I seem to remember the GG town council being completely unresponsive to certain Talassans ripping up GG on a regular basis not long ago, and when someone finally took it upon themself to post a bounty on them, Bentin's role in the matter was to take the bounty sign *down*.

Fenix, on this one, I'm going to have to ask you to please just accept the fact that this doesn't make sense in my mind.

[Fenix]

May 24, 2014 11:23:12 GMT -5 @sharauvyn said:

May 24, 2014 11:11:53 GMT -5 Fenix said:

The god protecting his own crypt is much different than the gods of justice or the painbearer handling the gg evils. They dont act upon every single injustice in the world directly. Their followers are tasked with that. If torm came down to deal with every crime, then mask may come to aide with every crimes success. Thus a godwar ensues. Kelemvor marking those who rob HIS crypts isnt that far fetched comparatively.

If you want a god to do something though, rping a line of story about it may be a good idea. The dms are rather accomodating.

Fenix ... Kelemvor responding every time someone opens a box ... *Bentin* responds ... how much? Nevermind Tyr, Torm, etc. Let's just talk Bentin.

I seem to remember the GG town council being completely unresponsive to certain Talassans ripping up GG on a regular basis not long ago, and when someone finally took it upon themself to post a bounty on them, Bentin's role in the matter was to take the bounty sign *down*.

Fenix, on this one, I'm going to have to ask you to please just accept the fact that this doesn't make sense in my mind.

The difference is that bentin is a human being who has the choice not to react. Hes not an epic level fighter. Hes a common militiaman. It could easily be scripted for him to respond to any adventurer as a threat if someone wants to go through a process of finding a way to designate players as hostile entities during the event of combat between another player. But then you would have bentin kill all parties involved.

Youre talking about the difference in game terms between a script adding depth to a game, and a dm having to be ariund controlling bentin every waking moment of the day all day just to respond to the chance that someone acts out and breaks a law. In reality, most adventurers in gg would be arrested on a daily basis if you want to bring this server to perfect realism. They scream across the square, get in fights, stand against the guards and the crown, amd break more than half the laws on that board.

As I recall, that bounty was taken down because as a legal standing, it was an unsanctioned bounty and more of a taunt at the council besides that. That player that put it up could likely be arrested, as the poster could be perceived as a threat in varied ways depending upon interpretation. Now if they went to the ravena and set it up proper and it was taken down, thats something entirely different.

[Deleted]

Okay.

[lowstorm]

I think the issue with the dungeon that gives these out vs the others is this:


You cannot tell the safe coffins apart from the unsafe ones!!! They aren't locked. There's no warning, other than it being a single dungeon on FRC that does it now. Sure, there used to be others.

And yes, I got the graverobber token. And no, I don't RP it. And no, I also will NOT rp it. Amothrade would NOT have looted the chest if she had known it was sanctified. But since the day she arrived in Cormyr, she was taught that to get rich here you must loot. So open everything up and raid the dungeon. It needs to be one way, or the other.

If there were willing DMs to help do quests to get rid of it, perhaps I'd rp it. But honestly, there's just not many DMs that have the time to do personal quests for the twenty characters that want to get rid of that token along with so many other personal quests that need/want doing. And I'd pick a totally different type of personal quest over the graverobber token.

If you want to implement something different, I would say to put the ones that give the token in a 'wall' type placeable, then give an yes/no as suggested before to loot it. Then people will have to read what it says, or not, and make the decision to click.

But first, I'd ask the DMs to give us a quest, implemented IN GAME, to get rid of the tokens. So that we do not need DM oversight to do it.

[Ivarcles]

May 24, 2014 9:22:29 GMT -5 mkable said:

A few Undead in a tomb complex hardly constitute the argument that the whole place is already despoiled.

Then there's the Necropolis. Seriously, it's the reason why my character stopped caring about picking things up from undead tombs. If a place like that is actually allowed to exist right outside of a major city in Cormyr, then all the legal and religious stuff about the sanctity of the dead is just hogwash.

[StabbingNirvana]

Anyone know that one hole in the ground container that when you click on it, it ends up being a lootable place that also functions as the outhouse for the monsters?

When things glow under tab, the assumption is to click on it. What about treasure island? You click tab and an invisible loot spot glows where you pick up pirate treaure. Glowing means click it. Things that glow are generally points of interest, the way to interact is clicking.

[Lokarn]

For anyone interested my view on this has changed slightly. Munroe answered my DM Q&A as follows.

May 26, 2014 8:14:58 GMT -5 Munroe said:

May 24, 2014 5:57:54 GMT -5 Lokarn said:

So, the thread I started has brought something to my attention. At least one player believes that graves stop being graves if an undead pops out of them. So this is a simple question.

If an undead is found by opening a grave, and you slay that undead. is that grave no longer a grave?

Follow up question: If a purple dragon witnessed a PC looking in a grave for undead, slaying it, then taking anything they found inside that grave, would he arrest the PC assuming he was an honorable, and just guard who felt like upholding the laws of Cormyr?

The Third Plaint: Crimes Against the Gods

Serious

Tomb-Robbing:
- Fine: 5,000 lions payable to offended party + Compensation of any missing and broken materials (set at maximum of 5,000 lions)
- Imprisonment: Dungeon - 5 Days

A grave doesn't stop being a grave just because an undead is in it. However, destroying the undead is a service technically being provided to the person who used to rest in that grave, so it might be considered a service worthy of compensation, and it may be culturally acceptable to loot the grave of an undead.

In other words, it's generally expected the the graves of undead will be looted by people fighting those undead.

Undead may of course rise because their graves were robbed, but taking the contents of a grave belonging to an undead isn't necessarily grave-robbing.

So yeah, the chance of being arrested for fighting undead then looting their graves is not the same as the chance for being arrested for looting graves that are not the dwellings of undead.

Based on his answer I conclude the following:

The grave of an undead is still a grave. It could be considered a service to the dead to have their undeath ended, and taking the things buried in their graves might be socially acceptable as compensation for the service. Depending on the moral compass of each PC it's left up to the player to determine if it's okay, or not.

DMs have left a lot of wiggle room through language used to answer to allow for looting even an undead's grave to be against the law. I assume it's to allow individual DMs to decide for themselves in any situation they need to. Additionally, I believe it is because they understand that a lot of loot containers in crypts are graves, including ones that never spawn undead when opened, and they don't wish to tie certain PC's hands when venturing there.

So, my outlook on looting graves has become, if my PC would demand to be compensated for doing a deed, then they will loot the graves if easily determined to be those of the undead defeated. If my PC would not ask to be compensated for doing a good deed, they will not loot any graves. If my PC is evil, they will do what evil does.

Additionally, My PCs will react according to their comprehension of the motives of those with them who do loot graves.

I still personally question a paladin who loots all graves, even the ones which don't spawn undead. I would even question a paladin who loots all graves that do spawn undead simply because it should be a task worth doing for the greater good. However, that will be done IC on PCs who it would make sense to do so on. OOC, do what you feel is best for you to "remain IC at all times" / shrug.


WRT those pesky parks marks, If it is as hard as some say to not escape this particular dungeon sans the mark, perhaps these particular graves need a "Caution hot beverage" sign. A neon one which protects them from accidental looting of these graves. ( slightly tongue in cheek here, in 8 years the only PC of mine with this mark I made sure to get it. )

I'd be glad if after the graves were "fixed" all current players with the mark could ask any DM to remove it as time allows. This way, in the future, anyone with the mark who never makes reference to it can be "encouraged" to do so.

[heartofsilver]

Just another reason why I love playing a chaotic!

"la-de-da, ho-de-hum! Oh ho! What do we have here? Doesn't look that guy will need this anymore!"

I dont know why we care about looting the long dead, when we greedily loot the recently dead.