First Impressions

[ManyAsOne]

I'm going to start this off by saying that I'm setting my position as a DM aside for a moment to say something that I feel I should say as a player to other players. This is by no means a DM ruling or anything of the sort. It is an attempt to ensure that we try to stick to the spirit of things.

First impressions are important. They tend to stick. A new player here, still learning the ropes of roleplaying might be overwhelmed by some of the things he or she sees or has to contend with. Perhaps a person is familiar with roleplaying joins FRC and logs in to see some of the things that go on in Isinhold for the first time.

From the things I have seen while playing lately, it would be enough to convince me not to log in again. Ever.

I want to take a second to try to remind people that Isinhold is intended to cater to lower-level players. It is meant to ease them into the style and spirit of the server with challenges that meet their level and with other PCs that they can party, or even fight against. It is not a feuding grounds for high-level bullys to fight each other and harass the low-level players.

How would you feel if you logged in for the first time to be greeted by a level 20 wizard threatening to turn you into a living, screaming torch? Or a level 24 cleric telling you to leave or risk being pulled limb from limb? You would probably get a very bad first impression of the server. Its a place that encourages you at level one to start leveling up so -you- can be the bully or fight the bully instead of roleplaying. Or it makes you think that sort of behavior is the essence of the server and encourages you to log out and not come back.

But this doesn't always apply to evil player characters either. There are the good-aligned ones that go into town seeking out fights with the evil PCs. Its just as bad.

Do these high-level, god-like PCs really have nothing better to do with their time and power than stand in front of the inn shouting curses and offering threats to everyone they can? I would certainly hope not, because if that's the case, I can honestly say that they do not deserve the levels they have. They are a joke.

I really must urge these high-level players to start wandering out of the starting town. Isinhold is too small for your ambitions. And it is certainly too small for you or your character's ego. Let the low-level players take it back and use it the way it was intended to be used.

Am I saying that high-level players shouldn't venture into Isinhold? Certainly not. But I am saying that I think they should leave the petty crap elsewhere because Isinhold wasn't built to cater to their egos, it was built as a starting ground for low-level players. The best way they can contribute there is to try to offer the best first impression of the server they can. If you and your character are not able to fill that critirea, then I am begging you as a fellow player to stay out of Isinhold.

[ancientempathy]

Well said Batty.

[urghargh]

Extremely well said, agree with every word.

[Vlad]

I agree with you on what you said above. *nod nod*

And specialy with this:

But this doesn't always apply to evil player characters either. There are the good-aligned ones that go into town seeking out fights with the evil PCs. Its just as bad.

[vangiggsy]

Well said Batty....couldn't agree more.

[mastersenge]

yay i wish i could say things as purdy as you do... I totally agree with everything you said there.

I even had a thing recently where a new character (no idea if it was a new player or not but I assumed it was) asked one of my lower level characters if it was legal to kill people in isinhold after hearing some of the higher levels talking so openly about killing each other there. It wasnt some argument going on either it was just normal conversation we were overhearing. I could see how that would put a new player off a little just the way it was done, epic ego like you were saying.

[irene]

May 6, 2008 14:41:41 GMT -5 ManyAsOne said:

.....

It is not a feuding grounds for high-level bullys to fight each other and harass the low-level players.

......

But this doesn't always apply to evil player characters either. There are the good-aligned ones that go into town seeking out fights with the evil PCs. Its just as bad.

.....

Am I saying that high-level players shouldn't venture into Isinhold? Certainly not. But I am saying that I think they should leave the petty crap elsewhere because Isinhold wasn't built to cater to their egos, it was built as a starting ground for low-level players.

I wholeheartedly agree!

[dmimmersion]

watches the ball sail out of the ball park cause.. well..

Batty just hit a big time home run with this post

Well said bats.. well said.

[TermaForever]

I've only just come back to playing after a semester hiatus so I can't say much for recent events. I can say though that I have seen similar things in the past, and really must agree with Batty. While I enjoy interacting with high levels in Isinhold, there is a difference between interacting and being out-rigth harassed.

I know some will say "its in character" but there is a certain point where the character has to be sacrificed a little bit for the sake of other players having fun.

[ashaffer]

My two coppers:

I never understood why some high level characters choose to endlessly hang around Isinhold myself... If you have no real reason (being a merchant, etc) to do so, then why do it? Hell, even my mid-level characters stay away from Isinhold, unless there is a valid reason to go there. Occasional visits by high level characters are fine, but you shouldn't become a permanent fixture there.

Just like DMs should keep any plots they run in Isinhold low power, geared towards the level of the characters who HAVE NO CHOICE but to be there, so should the players of high level characters, and it's up to them to moderate their behavior there accordingly. I too have had a taste of being bullied, for no good reason, by characters much higher than my own when I first began playing on FRC, and have to say that it's no fun at all. If you're not being fair, and you're ruining other people's fun, then you shouldn't do what you're doing. Period. Do us all a favor, and go find something else to do if you're that bored.

On the other hand, this doesn't give low level characters the right to insult, bully, or threaten high level characters simply because they know they are high level. That is metagaming. There are always consequences to your actions, and it is a stupid person who believes, that simply because they're much lower level than the other character, that they're exempt from whatever consequence that comes from such an interaction. *shrugs*

[Manshin]

One of my favorite times in FRC history was when Isinhold was overrun by hordes of undead and everyone was hanging out in Suzail.

[mastersenge]

I know I already commented in this thread but....

I aslo loved when people were actually hanging around in Suzail rather than it just being a stop to resupply.

Also the thing about DM events in Isinhold.. having epic or near epic characters alway there just makes lower level folks feel pretty much uselless and just more like the audience watching the higher lvls do thier thing when something does happen.

Isinhold is a little town off to the west.. not even a part of Cormyr anymore so it has always seemed odd to me that so many would just go there to hang out. It makes it hard not to go there if you want to interract with other players the way it is now though. I have a couple of characters, one being mid level and one being epic that never go there but because they never go there they rarely have people to RP around unless certain folks are logged in. Would be nice to treat the place as the starting town like it should be though instead of the center of activity.

One thing I've heard so many people say that really bugs me is "I'm going to Isinhold to do some RP". It's amazing how often I've heard that (well... read that since i cant hear what you people type but you know what i mean).

See what i mean about him saying it so much better than I can?

[ashaffer]

May 7, 2008 1:14:40 GMT -5 mastersenge said:

Also the thing about DM events in Isinhold.. having epic or near epic characters alway there just makes lower level folks feel pretty much uselless and just more like the audience watching the higher lvls do thier thing when something does happen.

Exactly... High level characters should do the right thing, and leave any plot that a DM may run in Isinhold to low level characters, unless they have specifically asked the DM running it if it's alright to involve themselves in it. It's extremely frustrating to be a low level character, and see someone of a much higher level take over a plot that was actually meant for characters of your level... Yeah, useless is pretty much how you end up feeling. *nods*

[Teneas]

Yep yep...go to Suzail. Had Ten swear off Isinhold just yesterday. Others casting tons of spells, talking trash, and using GS at whim pretty much does that.

[seina]

Ashaffer makes a very good point and I just don't want to see it buried.

Tiny little new PCs should -not- be challenging and/or insulting epic PCs just because they are low level and everyone will jump on the epic for killing the little 6hp PC.

It is hard to be the big bad epic evil (or the glowing epically good) when you have to walk the line between your -RP- and not wanting to ruin the fun of some loud mouth new PC (who is apparently just following their RP).

There are consequences for all IC actions. *shrugs*

I like that epic PCs hang out in Isinhold. It is very cool to meet the "heroes" and the "villains" as a new player.. Sharita reading her book at the table, Edward glaring at everyone.. that sort of thing. Yes, there will be clashes, but with the new laws, violence (and even threats of violence) should be kept to a minimum. How about when the epics -start- to get into a shouting match, they look quickly to Benten and say something like, ".. later." And then glare at one another. There is a way to stay IC.. let the new PCs see you being big and bad or good and glowing without scaring the crap out of them. =P

And Ten will be back in Isinhold inside a week. He likes the drama. *nodnod*

[shimmerxxx]

May 7, 2008 1:14:40 GMT -5 mastersenge said:

One thing I've heard so many people say that really bugs me is "I'm going to Isinhold to do some RP". It's amazing how often I've heard that

I've heard that a lot too.

This harks back to the many other threads on how to get folks out of Isinhold.

Sometimes I only have 30 mins to an hour to play, I log on with Grumm and go looking for other players in Suzail, Immersea, even Redmist and sadly more often than not my time expires before seeing another player.

Was a time that The Wailing Wheel in Suzail seemed to be the adventurers inn of choice, and I could often find other players there, but that seems to have faded from favour for some reason.

Maybe I'll find the old Isinhold RP disperse thread and put some ideas there rather than taking this threat OT.

[ShadowCatJen]

May 7, 2008 1:32:12 GMT -5 ashaffer said:

Exactly... High level characters should do the right thing, and leave any plot that a DM may run in Isinhold to low level characters, unless they have specifically asked the DM running it if it's alright to involve themselves in it. It's extremely frustrating to be a low level character, and see someone of a much higher level take over a plot that was actually meant for characters of your level... Yeah, useless is pretty much how you end up feeling. *nods*

Fully agree with this. Had something happen just a little while ago that almost made me spit.

There were quite a few characters in Isinhold and my character was looking for someone specific when a small group of adventurers came to town telling about a caravan attack by some goblins. OOCly I thought, "Goblins, low level, not something I should let my mid-to-high level character get involved with." A few people got involved and went with the original party to check it out. My character wished them luck and said there was more then enough people going to get involved, but then nearly everyone else including some high level characters followed suit!

Now, I can understand some people might argue that their character is the sort to want to help out with problems, but sometimes for the benefit of the lower levels you have to have your character bow out. Say to the "greenhorns" that if they need assistance with anything he/she will be right there to call on. Someone who is epic really should try and nurture younger adventurers, let them walk on their own, and not try and change their diapers for them.

Pardon if I sound a bit snarky, but watching it happen really irked me. I tried to set an example, but when only one other guy stayed behind the example became moot.

And as for the verbal abuse in Isinhold, please mind that there is, indeed, an "incitement" law. This law was put into place exactly for the reasons to avoid this sort of behavior. If your character is jaw jacking to someone enough to make them want to fight then your character is breaking the Incitement law.

Not to mention that it scares away potentially good RPers. Like Batty, if I had just gotten onto the server with a new character and the first PC I run into threatens to hurt mine then I'd immediately log off and find somewhere else to play. For me, that would be an indication that the server is either PvP heavy where levels matter more then the RP, or the community in general isn't very helpful.

[ManyAsOne]

SCJenn is on the money as far as DM events go.

It sounds like some people might have missed the point of my post.

My post wasn't about high-levels staying out of Isinhold. I value the input they often bring. Its just that, from what I've seen, many fail to realize that there is good input and bad input. I've been playing a few new level 1 characters on a secret account and, were I not already acclimated to FRC, I'd quit on the spot. Players that prefer to treat Isinhold as a place to scope out and battle their foes isn't cool, in my honest opinion. But to tell high-level players to stay out is a step in the wrong direction.

Some high-level players even call Isinhold their permanent residence and I think its unfair and indeed unwarranted to strip that from them. It stands to reason that Isinhold sees a lot of high-level traffic from an in-game perspective. It serves as a gateway between the Western Reach and Cormyr and the west of Faerun. Its a charming and well placed trade crossroads. Its not the quantity of high-levels that bothers me. Its the quality. I think they should always have the fact that Isinhold is a low-level starting place in the back of their minds and that they should try to give the best possible first impression of the server. If I were a new player and walked outside of the Regal Griffon for the first time to see a high level heroic wizard slaughtering some trash-talking villain with a level nine spell or a high-level villain threatening some low-level player for standing near that rock by the inn that everyone is obsessed with, I'd log out and not return because the level of violence and drama is far too much for a level 1 player character to contend with when first getting their feet wet.

Its like being set in the kiddy swimming-pool when you're just learning how to swim and having to contend with the Olympic-class swimmers that have, for some bizarre reason, decided not only that the kiddy swimming pool was for them, but that you are actually competition.

Their endless jockeying against one another for power in that village greatly undermines the value of a low-level player's accomplishments. Small towns and villages need small-town heroes and villains. They deserve renown and when high-levels are there displaying their awesome power on a daily basis, its hard to feel anything but insignificant. Its worse when you're actually taunted, another habit I've noticed on the rise lately, coming from both high-level good guys and bad guys alike.

Am I saying that they should stay out of Isinhold? No. Not at all. High-level player characters -do- have something to offer as seasoned veterans of the server. Am I saying they should change the entire way they play their character? Again, no. I'm saying that we need to instill in them the sense that they are part of a community, not a party of self-gratification and placation of ego that is solely for their benefit. If they are looking for that, they need to look for it outside of Isinhold in places were it makes more sense. There are many other more populous places that would make more sense to go to make a name for yourself.

[seina]

SCJ.. I think the epics you are talking about when off with my level 10 and a couple of level 3-4s. The epics set up a -camp- and said they would be there if we all needed them. Point of fact.. most everyone died and the few that escaped ran to that camp and the "epics" went in to raise (at their own expenses) those PCs still laying there dead.

So it may have looked bad, but the low levels were given the opportunity to run the campaign while the epics still could maintain their RP.

This is just one incident, so I am sure what you are talking about has happened other than this once.

[ancientempathy]

I stickied this thread.

I like what Batty is saying and what other players have been responding with.

I suggested a level-cap on Isinhold. That is severe, so it might not be done. Could be that we'll start poping the heads off those who are causing incursions, or it could not be.

I'd just like to make it known to the rest of the community that we DMs are discussing this We'd like all of our players to have fun; bot old and new, and even future roleplayers to come.

[Teneas]

Being a "starting" point, Isinhold was great as a new char to explore. Even loved the "occasional" epic drop ins. But...what I loved the most, was seeing all the characters in Suzail when we had the Zhent or the SD thing going. Just makes sense to be in the capital. Isinhold is basically the same as a poor ass dump town. We all go there to find others, and to see new faces, which is good....occasionally. Hells..I am not against a level cap there, or maybe even using the dungeon rule of only once per week if you are over a certain level.

[ShadowCatJen]

May 7, 2008 12:48:47 GMT -5 seina said:

SCJ.. I think the epics you are talking about when off with my level 10 and a couple of level 3-4s. The epics set up a -camp- and said they would be there if we all needed them. Point of fact.. most everyone died and the few that escaped ran to that camp and the "epics" went in to raise (at their own expenses) those PCs still laying there dead.

So it may have looked bad, but the low levels were given the opportunity to run the campaign while the epics still could maintain their RP.

This is just one incident, so I am sure what you are talking about has happened other than this once.

It certainly isn't the first time I've seen epics head off when there are already enough PCs involved, but it was the latest.

And though the epics might of "stayed out" they were still there in the background, generally nearby, like a safety net. Would the PCs in the active group acted as they did if they didn't know the epics were nearby for a rescue? That may never be answered, but the influence is still there.

But this has more to do with the DM Magnet Effect, then anything else. The Effect that takes place where every single PC in the vicinity suddenly interacts with a DM controlled NPC when moments before the NPC was ignored. The same Effect that causes nearly every single PC in a town to clear out to check on an "unusual" problem that a DM has presented, regardless of the size of the problem.

But, again, this subject is a bit different from what Batty is trying to say.

It comes down not only to character attitudes, but player attitudes as well. If a player thinks there is going to be no repercussions towards their character when they start to bully, push, or just be confrontational, then they will continue that attitude regardless of how harmful it will be to a community.

Also consider this, players who have managed to get high or epic level characters should also be good examples for the community. Representatives of the player base for the server as a whole. You should be expected to be considerate of other players about you and to the crew is well. Unfortunately, FRC has no absolute stipulation that a high or epic level do this.

"Have fun, but not at the expense of others."

Which brings about the question... if these particular bullying characters are not making it fun for others, then what will be done about them? What can be done about them?

[EDM Entori]

May 7, 2008 14:01:59 GMT -5 ShadowCatJen said:

May 7, 2008 12:48:47 GMT -5 seina said:

SCJ.. I think the epics you are talking about when off with my level 10 and a couple of level 3-4s. The epics set up a -camp- and said they would be there if we all needed them. Point of fact.. most everyone died and the few that escaped ran to that camp and the "epics" went in to raise (at their own expenses) those PCs still laying there dead.

So it may have looked bad, but the low levels were given the opportunity to run the campaign while the epics still could maintain their RP.

This is just one incident, so I am sure what you are talking about has happened other than this once.

It certainly isn't the first time I've seen epics head off when there are already enough PCs involved, but it was the latest.

And though the epics might of "stayed out" they were still there in the background, generally nearby, like a safety net. Would the PCs in the active group acted as they did if they didn't know the epics were nearby for a rescue? That may never be answered, but the influence is still there.

But this has more to do with the DM Magnet Effect, then anything else. The Effect that takes place where every single PC in the vicinity suddenly interacts with a DM controlled NPC when moments before the NPC was ignored. The same Effect that causes nearly every single PC in a town to clear out to check on an "unusual" problem that a DM has presented, regardless of the size of the problem.

But, again, this subject is a bit different from what Batty is trying to say.

It comes down not only to character attitudes, but player attitudes as well. If a player thinks there is going to be no repercussions towards their character when they start to bully, push, or just be confrontational, then they will continue that attitude regardless of how harmful it will be to a community.

Also consider this, players who have managed to get high or epic level characters should also be good examples for the community. Representatives of the player base for the server as a whole. You should be expected to be considerate of other players about you and to the crew is well. Unfortunately, FRC has no absolute stipulation that a high or epic level do this.

"Have fun, but not at the expense of others."

Which brings about the question... if these particular bullying characters are not making it fun for others, then what will be done about them? What can be done about them?

I'll say one point before getting back to the thread topic, if the dm involved didn't like what those folks were doing they could of given us a Rp reason to leave, or a nice little tell.

As for the main topic, aye it is the attitudes and of late, you have to just see it as it is. A foolish little argument both sides snicker and swear at each other, but it takes two to fight, iC and out of character, if your goodly character decides to turn the other cheek, he is not ending the argument, and looking like that goodly pc he is. As well as other things, it oocly doesn't ruin the fun of players.

I like what batty is saying and it is something to think on.

[ancientempathy]

There were three DMs on at that time, Entori, and I was one of them.

And neither one of us had the free-time of "telling the epics" to reconsider and move along. There are some things that a DM should not have to think-about for a player, in my personal opinion.

Meawhile there were other matters we were trying to address. Even with 3 DMs on, you'd be surprised at the work.

[ancientempathy]

Say, looky what Shimmer ressurected..

frc.proboards37.com/?board=ideasandsuggestions&action=display&thread=1253&page=1

[kasin]

In regard to dispersion, from what I'm reading, I think Batty's point is getting lost here by some. It's not a matter of high level pc's RPing in Isenhold that's the perceived problem, there's actually quite a bit of positive RP interaction between some high levels and the newer/ lower levels. It's how some of them are interacting that's setting the negative tone.

JMO.

[ashaffer]

May 7, 2008 13:55:16 GMT -5 @ancientempathy said:

suggested a level-cap on Isinhold. That is severe, so it might not be done. Could be that we'll start poping the heads off those who are causing incursions, or it could not be.

I'd just like to make it known to the rest of the community that we DMs are discussing this We'd like all of our players to have fun; bot old and new, and even future roleplayers to come.

A level cap on Isinhold is not the way to deal with this problem, as it would end up biting the players of high level characters, who are not causing any trouble, in the ass as well. How about dealing directly with the troublemakers instead? As SCJ stated, people ARE actually breaking Isinhold laws when they shout abuse back and forth, so why aren't they being charged with a crime? Arrest them for disturbing the peace, or inciting a riot, a few times, and maybe they'll starting getting the hint that their behavior is unacceptable. Hell, if they keep it up, then they can be told that they are no longer welcome in Isinhold at all.

I am just really tired of being punished right along with the bad apples, when I have done nothing wrong to merit it...

[ancientempathy]

May 7, 2008 15:11:02 GMT -5 @kasin said:

In regard to dispersion, from what I'm reading, I think Batty's point is getting lost here by some. It's not a matter of high level pc's RPing in Isenhold that's the perceived problem, it's how some of them are interacting that's setting the negative tone.

Yeah, I put the link there so that people can take such discussions to that link. Some have posted within it so far

And we can't always act upon a crime because we don't always get reports about it. We've been doing our best, however.

May 7, 2008 12:45:27 GMT -5 ManyAsOne said:

SCJenn is on the money as far as DM events go.

It sounds like some people might have missed the point of my post.

My post wasn't about high-levels staying out of Isinhold. I value the input they often bring. Its just that, from what I've seen, many fail to realize that there is good input and bad input. I've been playing a few new level 1 characters on a secret account and, were I not already acclimated to FRC, I'd quit on the spot. Players that prefer to treat Isinhold as a place to scope out and battle their foes isn't cool, in my honest opinion. But to tell high-level players to stay out is a step in the wrong direction.

Some high-level players even call Isinhold their permanent residence and I think its unfair and indeed unwarranted to strip that from them. It stands to reason that Isinhold sees a lot of high-level traffic from an in-game perspective. It serves as a gateway between the Western Reach and Cormyr and the west of Faerun. Its a charming and well placed trade crossroads. Its not the quantity of high-levels that bothers me. Its the quality. I think they should always have the fact that Isinhold is a low-level starting place in the back of their minds and that they should try to give the best possible first impression of the server. If I were a new player and walked outside of the Regal Griffon for the first time to see a high level heroic wizard slaughtering some trash-talking villain with a level nine spell or a high-level villain threatening some low-level player for standing near that rock by the inn that everyone is obsessed with, I'd log out and not return because the level of violence and drama is far too much for a level 1 player character to contend with when first getting their feet wet.

Its like being set in the kiddy swimming-pool when you're just learning how to swim and having to contend with the Olympic-class swimmers that have, for some bizarre reason, decided not only that the kiddy swimming pool was for them, but that you are actually competition.

Their endless jockeying against one another for power in that village greatly undermines the value of a low-level player's accomplishments. Small towns and villages need small-town heroes and villains. They deserve renown and when high-levels are there displaying their awesome power on a daily basis, its hard to feel anything but insignificant. Its worse when you're actually taunted, another habit I've noticed on the rise lately, coming from both high-level good guys and bad guys alike.

Am I saying that they should stay out of Isinhold? No. Not at all. High-level player characters -do- have something to offer as seasoned veterans of the server. Am I saying they should change the entire way they play their character? Again, no. I'm saying that we need to instill in them the sense that they are part of a community, not a party of self-gratification and placation of ego that is solely for their benefit. If they are looking for that, they need to look for it outside of Isinhold in places were it makes more sense. There are many other more populous places that would make more sense to go to make a name for yourself.

[ManyAsOne]

Guys, guys, guys... Stop a second.

This isn't about any one specific instance. Its about all of them. It isn't about how best the DM team can deal with it. Its about how best the community as a whole can deal with it. It isn't about us vs them, me vs you, new vs old, or anything even remotely confrontational. Its about being considerate. You are all responsible for your own actions. If you feel you cannot handle keeping your high-level drama and violence outside of Isinhold when you're there, then simply don't go there.

Its that simple.

I don't want to drag this out. I posted this as a player, not as a DM. So its not as if I'm saying its law or something. Its just an opinion you can think over or dismiss. But I hope you will, for the sake of the server, think it over. Selfishness isn't a feature that co-mingles with the spirit of FRC.

There is no magic solution. I don't think the DMs can pass a rule or wave their hands and make it go away. Its been tried with everything from events to encourage people to leave, to in-game laws to try to cut down on the confrontation that occurs there. It just keeps rising. I don't think arguing it will help either. Try not to miss the forest for the trees here. There is a very simple way that this can be remedied and it requires very little effort from anyone. Simply don't do it. Simply leave your high-level drama, motives, and grudges outside of Isinhold.

That's all. I can't see anything else working.

Again, its a community, not a free-for-all love-fest for your ego. If you want to play tough, play tough somewhere else, Isinhold isn't for you. There's no point being the big fish in a small pond. Please, just grow up and tone it down.

That easy.

[Pookey]

May 7, 2008 15:28:44 GMT -5 @ancientempathy said:

And we can't always act upon a crime because we don't always get reports about it. We've been doing our best, however.

I encourage everyone to start keeping logs just for this eventuality. If your character is the victim of a crime, we need logs to sort it all out. The thread on the Gnomish Log Rotator explains how to set up logging, even if you choose not to use the Rotator program.

We really need logs of these things to sort them out, so I encourage you all to start keeping logs of your games.

DM Pookey