malleus
Old School
The first breath is the beginning of death.
Posts: 450
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Post by malleus on Dec 26, 2019 13:50:30 GMT -5
A group of players on the server had an ooc talk yesterday about the character level vs dungeon levels on frc. Quest exp has been nerfed, personally I don’t really care about that, but we have all seen certain players “grind” dungeons solo or in small groups for exp or what they call… fun.
Now I am not attacking anyone personally and I will not use any names of the certain players, I just want to hear how the people of FRC feel about this.
Is everyone OK with just solo grind dungeons day after day that gives no challenge to you? but provides you with a steady income of 1 xp pr mob and a quest experience. Of course, taking in to account that everyone upholds the 7-day rule and all, but still.
There are a few dungeons with a level cap on it around Greatguant but that is about it, I think.
When I scroll down the rules, I technically don’t see anything preventing me from taking a level 25 character and go and burn down the gobbling fortress outside Greatguant.
Or taking a level 25 character to the Suzail orcs, as they give a quest in the end to but still provides me with minimal challenge.
So please give your thoughts on this matter if you please.
Sharing views may alter the perceptions so please type what comes to your mind in this matter.
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Dec 26, 2019 14:17:48 GMT -5
All that can be said at this time is that the team is aware of this situation and it will be addressed in the coming weeks/months.
Sorry more details can't be given but there have been some more priority things on the table that need to be dealt with first.
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Post by malclave on Dec 26, 2019 14:31:47 GMT -5
There is a rule against farming, which includes activity like you describe. frc.proboards.com/thread/29379/server-rulesI'll usually try to go places with low, but at least some, risk when I'm soloing. I also use up consumables in those places, so I don't think it quite rises to the rule's definition of farming, even if I sometimes refer to it as such. Unfortunately, several months ago I lost access (for my principal character) to some of the places I would like to go because of RP considerations, and I really dislike soloing on most of my others. What's left to me is three options: scrape up against the farming rule but still gain a few hundred xp, go some place where there's a high chance of LOSING a couple of thousand xp, or find some other game to play.
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Post by lucid on Dec 26, 2019 14:40:49 GMT -5
The rule was explained to me simply enough: somethng in the dungeon needs to give 2 xp, something common and not the final boss.
You have to be careful with things like "challenge" and "risk", even beyond the fact that they are subjective measures and each DM will have their own opinion on what it really means.
Say my character purchases a Mace of Disruption, now undead fall before me like wheat before the scythe. I'm...not allowed to do undead dungeons, now?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 14:51:33 GMT -5
Some technical Info:
a) Loot wise, the areas that are "New Loot" stop scaling at some point thanks to the variables CRmin and CRmax (CR = Challenge Rating). This means that if an area has a CRmin of 5 and a CRmax of 10, the monsters will be a mostly appropriate challenge for characters between levels 5 and 10, though the bossess are at times an exception to this. Additionally, the loot found there will usually be balanced for parties or soloers that are around that level range as well. In a way, all of the above is done to deter farmers (XP and GP farmers) by making spawns only grant minimal XP and by making loot containers generate loot considered enough for specific levels. This is why you never find level 9 scrolls in the kobold or goblin caves of GG.
How to know when monsters found in an area are no longer a match for your character?
If they cannot damage him/her in any significant way that forces you to be careful, and/or they grant minimal XP. For instance, if goblins are granting you 1 XP and you are not afraid to fight many at once, then maybe it is time to look for a greater challenge. However, if Frost Giants are only granting your level 28 character 1 XP, but still land some nasty triple digit criticals, then it is still ok to fight them, because the risk of dying and losing Vs said Frost Giants is still present and you are probably using supplies as well.
Note: Now then there is also possibility of some unusual situations happening. If I take my epic level paladin to certain popular orc cave in a snowy region, I can expect him to take some meaningful damage after a while and if I'm not careful. However, if I take the mighty Red Emp to the same cave, he takes almost 0 damage and spends no healing kits at all. Why? because those orcs have no magical weapons and certain monk perk grants high resistance against mundane weapons. Even so, I would say it is common sense. If some place seems too easy, then it is best stop going there with that character.
b) The XP quest nerf had its own reasons to exist as well, but part of it was done so that characters would not rush to the 30s in a matter of months.
As for soloers doing easier level areas that are no longer a match for them:
I would say it becomes a true problem if that high level or epic level character returns to those easier dungeons weekly. If this is done, it is probably because there is some nice quest XP and some loot to be found. The idea is not to restrict more and more of the server as a character advances in levels, and thus why all dungeons save for the ones in GG are still open to anyone above level 5. By keeping them open, higher level characters can still help to rescue those that found themselves in more trouble that they could handle.
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Post by nemusator on Dec 26, 2019 14:56:45 GMT -5
It is perfectly clear that if a dungeon is too easy you shouldn't be there. "Use common sense" is one of the core rules of FRC. So is "Have fun but not on the expense on the others", "Do not torture anyone" without their consent, or make sure if you are involving yourself in some discouraged activities that both/all of you are all 18+ and have agreed upon such activities. Same common sense should be applied in every activity and action on FRC, such as adventuring, etc. I don't think anyone likes to solo and that it happens when players can't find anyone to adventure/rp with. Although it is not "scripted" it is perfectly clear that in some areas NPC's giving quests would tell you something like: "M'lord/M'lady, you are far overqualified for this matter..." To reach some of the most challenges places you do have to pass through some areas with monsters with no challenge whatsoever to your character, but there is never that much of those taht you could call it grinding. It is crystal clear that DM's do their best to focus on telling stories and creating events+tons of other stuff. But f.e. a player level 30 caught battling Skulks might just experience what it's like to fight a level 120 Skulk, or 10 at once, or be over his head in all traps you can imagine, maybe forced to respawn, maybe talked to or whatever a DM seems fit. Long story short, a DM can see how many times one character farted in his/hers 10 year period of playing here, and can check everything if decided and just because there is not a public list of players banned and alike, doesn't mean it doesn't happen and that DM's, not seeing any other solution won't do it if necessary. Players do show of with doing easy places with their high epics, and various things, but it is a sad day for anyone who gets a ban. And for them alone. I apologize for taking this much liberty to talk about DM's and some actions of theirs I heard form other players and alike. Would also like to say that my post isn't against anyone in particular or alike. Good RP is greatest reward by itself, DM bonus is just a welcomed pat on the back. I'm saying this because: adventures and quests are nothing compared to DM run events and plots/encounters RP your character can experience with other players. I think roughly, Chell received around 15k xp or more just from DM bonuses, and Ther about 10-11 k already. I like to think that everyone who plays here is on the same team? And team ideology is crystal clear.
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Post by shivers on Dec 26, 2019 16:31:57 GMT -5
just let people play.
that’s always the best policy.
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Post by ID10Tango on Dec 26, 2019 17:15:23 GMT -5
Thank you DM Maleficent's Kiss for the feedback. I'd like to submit the following for consideration in regards to a small excerpt of Server Rule 10:I feel this is a bit too vague/subjective and a player could argue that they can "increase the risk" by choosing not to use any potions/spells/buffs (I've seen this RP'd as tests of grit). There's no explicit rule that states you have to max your stats before entering a dungeon or encountering a creature, nor is there any rule explicitly preventing players from choosing not to in order to increase the risk of lower level dungeons/creatures. The risk that creatures and dungeons present are not strictly level-based but include other factors like how prepared a character is, which varies widely based on classes and inventory. I like the points that lucid brings up: As mentioned there are many dungeons that present a decent amount of "risk" (buffs and supplies required or die) while still only giving 1xp until the final boss, as well as a plethora of items that can be leveraged to great advantages to make other dungeons a cake walk so this could prematurely limit players. I feel Server Rules 2 and 3 blend together to ensure players maintain IC RP that is appropriate for the FRC setting. I also feel that beyond that, common sense is also subjective and based on context. FRC attracts players from a wide variety of backgrounds and play styles, so new players to FRC may not have a lot of what DM's and veteran community members would consider "common sense" even after all the required reading to play here. For me personally it was something I had to learn and refine over time (my first ever character was a very green orc and was immediately stopped and deleted by a DM lol) and there are countless things I have learned that now make a lot of sense...but would not call it "common". It's not my intent to over complicate the issue being discussed here, just offering some other perspectives and context. -Tango-
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Post by DM Hawk on Dec 26, 2019 17:24:22 GMT -5
Howdy folks, Chiming in with a snippet from Rule 10 about farming. 10. Do not Power Level or Farm - Power Leveling and Farming are not acceptable on FRC. ... "Farming" is defined as visiting the same area or encounters over and over again waiting for spawns and loot. It can also mean going around in a circle of certain spots/areas over and over again in a pattern. Another form of farming is going to areas with little or no risk when encountering the easier creatures.... This is an old, standing rule on FRC. If a dungeon doesn't provide challenge or risk to your character it's time to move on. It can be subjective to an extent and opinions may differ from time to time, but generally it is clear when a dungeon no longer provides a challenge and it's evident when a character has outgrown it. To cite the example given above about a level 25 character burning down the Greatgaunt Goblin fortress - this is clearly farming. This is like a special forces operative going up against 30 kindergartners. Could there be exceptions? Sure. If your level 25 character truly struggles with this dungeon it is easy for both the player and DM to see. Please use common sense and honor the rules folks. They are in place for a reason and we all have a part to play when it comes to maintaining the roleplay atmosphere of FRC.
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Post by sightblinder on Dec 26, 2019 17:30:19 GMT -5
I try and make sure I'm not breaking any rules on the server, and it appears that playing solo in dungeons is *not* breaking any rules. I like to play with others when I can, but it can be *very* time consuming trying to get a group together or even just one other person to go on a run with. I can usually find about an hour to two hours a day to play, at least during the week, and it can take half or more of my time just trying to get a party together, if I can get one together at all. So by the time I get more people to play with, it's time to log off. There is also the issue of travel time. It can take a pretty decent amount of time just to get to someplace to go on a run. Because of this I tend to end up doing the same dungeons quite a bit, but still only doing them once a week with that character. From a RP perspective it also doesn't make much sense to seek out overly dangerous opponents, especially when you are soloing. "Hmmm, my chances of dying and being eaten by these kobolds isn't very high. Let me go find some ettins who will have a better chance of killing and eating me." My question to the OP is; "if no rules are being broken, why do you care?" Everyone has their own ideas of what is and is not fun. If you don't like soloing or going to the same dungeons once a week, don't do it.
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Post by Warlord on Dec 26, 2019 17:49:49 GMT -5
On another gentler note, DM's won't be hammer-banning peeps off the bat either without fairly assessing the situation. To those making genuine mistakes or too scared of going outside the comfort zone...don't be afraid to ask questions or something. Anything. Players that see Warlord login, and question whether or not their class/pc level + team combo might be in an area too low for a team dungeon stomp: I can give a pretty solid opinion if it is a good idea or bad idea, so don't hesitate to poke. People often do. I imagine any other veteran to the house could provide the same. My basic personal criteria: 1 - 5 Starter Area, and beyond 5 - 10 - Western Reaches, and beyond 10 - 15 - /some/ Western Reaches (maybe 3 dungeons?), then largely in Shallybrook/Suzail/And Beyond 15 + ... you probably won't be seeing my PC anymore among Valkurs or the starter area without very good reason I've taken level 1 - 10 range in the Underdark before. Most times successful .. many other times ... total loss haha, but that's the foolhearty risks a new PC can take. One fat tank, one stabby flank, and many archers tends to just be basic gaming. Better hope them level 1's know how to avoid boulders on the way though... Personally, I think anything in the Western Reaches should cap at Lvl10 myself to encourage other portions of the module to be explored as a lot of hard work was put into FRC's many areas. It's nothing personal towards class' limitations nor solo artists, etc...But there is sooo much to appreciate and many dungeons to help propel a PC ahead. It probably won't happen. Statistically, I am largely out of the Western Reaches by level 10 though as I crew gather and kamahameha against drow or freakishly hard undead. And as with all explorations and dungeoneering...RP comes first I won't help people find the next-best pie slice on where to go - meet up in character and roleplay that out - but I can help determine if a combo is too low in an area.
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Post by malclave on Dec 26, 2019 17:54:08 GMT -5
That presupposes, though, that there is a place to move to that the character knows about. Information like that is not very forthcoming on the server. You have to know what questions to ask (almost to the point of knowing the answers already), and hope that the player on the other end gives you a straight answer.
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Post by Warlord on Dec 26, 2019 18:01:30 GMT -5
That presupposes, though, that there is a place to move to that the character knows about. Information like that is not very forthcoming on the server. You have to know what questions to ask (almost to the point of knowing the answers already), and hope that the player on the other end gives you a straight answer. The character should ask where to go next if they feel their talents are underpar or if the player is perceiving that the challenge isn't worthy enough as apart of the roleplaying environment. The information isn't forthcoming - mechanically - Realmslore wise? Plenty of known knowledge about the Underdark or the ancient Hullack Forest being places of old riches and foes, so .. we could presuppose these are good places to go, eventually. Among many others So a new player need not know where to go. That information comes to them. Don't 90% of our epics hang out at the starter area? "Hey Mister...where should I go or not go?"
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Post by malclave on Dec 26, 2019 19:12:44 GMT -5
So a new player need not know where to go. That information comes to them. Don't 90% of our epics hang out at the starter area? "Hey Mister...where should I go or not go?" Yeah. And I've had the Hullack suggested to a preteen character. Or other places that were not survivable solo (when the experienced player knew I wasn't in a group). The suggestions made sense from an RP viewpoint, if I had the levels and gear to handle them, I suppose. Can't really blame the veterans for that... since we're pretending to be all about the RP, we're supposed to act like levels and other mechanics don't exist. On the flip side, I think my cleric of Lathander was level 9 or 10 before finding a temple, I guess because Lathander is so well known for subtlety. But really, I guess what I'm saying is that if people are going to be told to stop going certain places, they need to know of other places to go. (and that doesn't even get into RP issues like why a dwarf fighter would have to move on from ogres and ettins before a human fighter of equal level and gear would have to)
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Post by Warlord on Dec 26, 2019 19:18:05 GMT -5
So a new player need not know where to go. That information comes to them. Don't 90% of our epics hang out at the starter area? "Hey Mister...where should I go or not go?" Yeah. And I've had the Hullack suggested to a preteen character. Or other places that were not survivable solo (when the experienced player knew I wasn't in a group). The suggestions made sense from an RP viewpoint, if I had the levels and gear to handle them, I suppose. Can't really blame the veterans for that... since we're pretending to be all about the RP, we're supposed to act like levels and other mechanics don't exist. On the flip side, I think my cleric of Lathander was level 9 or 10 before finding a temple, I guess because Lathander is so well known for subtlety. But really, I guess what I'm saying is that if people are going to be told to stop going certain places, they need to know of other places to go. (and that doesn't even get into RP issues like why a dwarf fighter would have to move on from ogres and ettins before a human fighter of equal level and gear would have to) We really got to meet up in game more
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Dec 26, 2019 19:28:23 GMT -5
Sorry more details can't be given but there have been some more priority things on the table that need to be dealt with first. I bet she's talking about a fix to Holy Sword. I personally can't think of any other priority over that one. #nomoreuniquesummons
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Post by malclave on Dec 26, 2019 20:04:05 GMT -5
Sorry more details can't be given but there have been some more priority things on the table that need to be dealt with first. I bet she's talking about a fix to Holy Sword. I personally can't think of any other priority over that one. #nomoreuniquesummons I can only think of one more urgent... I thought 64 bit EE was supposed to fix this, but gnomes still aren't spontaneously exploding like they should. #SonsOfExplodius
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sarkill
Proven Member
Quack
Posts: 104
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Post by sarkill on Dec 26, 2019 20:26:29 GMT -5
Something to keep in mind: FRC wasn't designed with level 25+ in mind, which is why there isn't much in the way of good xp for high level characters. Yes, this could be adjusted, but it's not the focus of FRC and in a way it also serves to discourage powerleveling/farming/etc, by making it more difficult to do these efficiently. While this also hampers the xp gains of non-powerlevelers, I believe the sentiment from the DM team is that we should care less about PC levels, and more about simply playing the game together, which makes the trade-off worth it.
We all play differently, and at different frequencies, but FRC is primarily a RP server before anything else. It's not against the rules, nor is it necessarily wrong to solo or to run dungeons weekly; however these activities are often also done by those who partake in other behaviors that are frowned upon on FRC. It's like being out at night: it's not illegal, but it is when most illegal things occur. Is it wrong to be out at night? No. But you do incur extra suspicion for doing so. Shouldn't be an issue if you're not actually doing anything against the rules.
And as said earlier in this thread, the common sense rule is really what needs to be remembered here. Obviously don't farm dungeons made for level 5-10 characters when you're level 20+. It certainly can be confusing on where to go when you're new to the server, but our DM team will understand the difference between a new player staying in the low level areas because they don't know anywhere else they can go safely (say, a lvl 10 in a lvl 5 zone), vs obviously veteran players in areas they obviously have no challenge in (say, a lvl 25 in a lvl 10 zone).
To summarize: FRC is primarily for RP, those breaking the rules know who they are. If you're not sure if you're one of them, you probably are not. Our DM team, while not infallible, has good judgement and you don't have to worry about undue punishments flying your way. Always remember to follow the most important rule, have fun, but never at the expense of others! Miss you all, happy holidays.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 20:38:36 GMT -5
I think that some players have not realized that... *spoiler spoiler* one levels up faster by constantly taking risks with parties. The greater the risk, the more XP and sometimes GP too. Soloing easier or appropriate level content alot, will actually make things slower after level 10 or so.
sarkill FRC can still support characters in their 30s, but over the years and after 2012, some neat features and customisations of the base game (see spells, custom summons, new items and the like) lowered the general difficulty somewhat.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 20:50:41 GMT -5
If the DMs/builders want to level restrict an area then it is an extremely easy thing to do. Some areas in Greatgaunt are well known to be restricted (cannot be entered above a certain level). Of course there are the timing rules. Once a week for most people. Another easy thing to change if wanted.
Everyone else who is not part of management can please butt out of this. Play the way you want and let others do the same within the rules.
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Post by Southpaw on Dec 27, 2019 1:30:43 GMT -5
I have a couple litmus tests as to whether a dungeon is "challenging" to my character or not. Probably the number one test for me is the "adrenaline test." Different dungeons present different sorts of challenges to my character, like one might be a hard, melee slog through hordes of orcs, where the test is of muscle and endurance, while another is a matter of smacking death magic monsters by surprise or at range before they can get off a death spell on my character who has no death ward. The horde of orcs will beat on my character for tons and tons and tons of hp and burn through tons of healing supplies, but in the death magic dungeon, my character might lose 3 hp over the course of the whole dungeon, but I still find it "challenging." I might even find the death magic dungeon to be "challenging," while the orc cave that inflicts a total of 10,000 hp damage to my character and costs 5,000 gold in supplies is not. The reason is, as much as the orc cave costs supplies and does damage, my character is certain to win in the end if I just keep clicking on the monsters mindlessly until it's over, but ONE miss on a knockdown against a bodak followed by ONE natural one on a fortitude save is a respawn. So, in the orc cave, I might actually be going afk while my character takes a minute or two to hack through a group of orcs and wash some dishes or feed the cat or something (I've had a player react with great surprise to the fact I've been known to do that, but yes, in some dungeons in the more predictable fights, I'll set expertise, click on something red, and then go afk for a minute or so), but in the bodak dungeon, I might be on the edge of my seat with sweaty palms hoping this isn't the one time my character has a fatal bungle.
So for me, the biggest test is the degree to which I'm biting my nails over what might come in at least a few encounters in the dungeon, or if the whole thing just feels emotionally flat.
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Post by purgatori69 on Dec 27, 2019 7:16:09 GMT -5
Going to chime in a little. Having a very high level character which took me 5 years to get to 30. I still find myself discovering areas I have not been too on a server I have been playing on for over 8 yesrs.
Challenge/Risk I get 1 xp almost everywhere but generally I keep tabs on damage. For example undead crypt outside of Suzail with Lich in it at level 29 I have died. Wasnt paying attention to my HP while fighting the Lich at the end.
Rule I use for myself is after each spawn do I need to heal at all. If I can clear three spawns without healing of even feeling the need to heal not a challenge or risk.
Quest XP dungeons I find myself using as RP reason to collect bounties is simple and often way to get that last bump when close to a level. Even with that alot of the quest RP dungeons I visit maybe once a month.
Its subjective. 30 in a year in my opinion likely grinding it out. But if you log 12 hours a day it's possible. Good group to weekly clear the crazy dungeons.
In 8 years killed shadow dragon once. Done Riviera keep 5 times. Fire giants 3 times. Drow underdark maybe 10 times. All these dungeons requires groups and all my trips I remember because of the great rp over just grinding out a dungeon for xp. Also I get like 2 to 4 xp a kill lol.
I am generally a solo player because of time constraints and RP. My characters often wont party with just anyone for no reason. Ok done
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Post by Dakarizon (Shroud) on Dec 27, 2019 8:30:01 GMT -5
I think many of the points brought up here are very good. "Challenging" can be a subjective term. I don't think anyone is going to nitpick someone for using clever tactics/strategy/spells or group play in order to make something "less challenging". Really anytime you drink a barkskin potion or buff yourself up with spells, you're making it "less challenging". I think all players here are smart enough to realize when something is simply "beneath" them. You don't need to go to a place with a 50% chance of dying to call it "challenging". But if you have to think about keeping spells up, engaging enemies cleverly, managing healing resources or saving spells for emergencies then I would argue you -are- challenging yourself.
I once brought a lvl 12 or 13 mage into the Gnolls dungeon for RP reasons. OOCLY I thought the spawns scaled higher than they do. Considering the challenge of it, I decided ICly and OOCly that the place was a waste of my characters time (Laughably so). Now if someone were to ask my character to go there, he'd have a good reason not to: My resources and time are better spent helping the realm elsewhere.
Certainly every character is different, but the server rules aren't subject to IC overrides. There are a million RP justifications to do anything that shouldn't be done, and I -shouldn't- have been there.
Separation of IC and OOC actions is very important for a place like FRC. Immersion is essential to foster the desired RP experiences here. An epic level "patrolling" a loop of low level dungeons every week is not immersive. And when you get into that mindset, you become less immersed in your own character and in other's.
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Post by Southpaw on Dec 27, 2019 10:10:11 GMT -5
I think this, like many issues, is best handled on the non-player side in how the server is built. If monsters drastically below your level gave zero xp, and the gold in lower level dungeons wasn’t worth a much higher level character’s time, it would be a lot less tempting to go waltzing through the kobolds at level 30, and it wouldn’t be worth getting hot and bothered if someone did because they’re not leveling up or getting crazy powerful gear from the loot. As it is, my level 6 character profits just as much from clearing the goblin fort solo as my higher level characters do clearing dungeons at the level of the Eveningstar orc cave. In the real world, if someone offered me $10,000 to sip lemonade for an hour, I’m not turning it down because it’s too easy and I have no chance of getting killed. (Getting killed???) That’s totally senseless. I do believe this would be better managed on the non-player side by managing risks and rewards, especially in those dungeons in the level 10-20 range that reward like the kobold cave, or in some rare cases, reward less.
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Post by Dakarizon (Shroud) on Dec 27, 2019 10:23:31 GMT -5
I think this, like many issues, is best handled on the non-player side in how the server is built. If monsters drastically below your level gave zero xp, and the gold in lower level dungeons wasn’t worth a much higher level character’s time, it would be a lot less tempting to go waltzing through the kobolds at level 30, and it wouldn’t be worth getting hot and bothered if someone did because they’re not leveling up or getting crazy powerful gear from the loot. As it is, my level 6 character profits just as much from clearing the goblin fort solo as my higher level characters do clearing dungeons at the level of the Eveningstar orc cave. In the real world, if someone offered me $10,000 to sip lemonade for an hour, I’m not turning it down because it’s too easy and I have no chance of getting killed. (Getting killed???) That’s totally senseless. I do believe this would be better managed on the non-player side by managing risks and rewards, especially in those dungeons in the level 10-20 range that reward like the kobold cave, or in some rare cases, reward less. There are some pros and cons to this argument. Yes if there is no mechanical advantage, why would someone even go there? Ex:Remove an exploit from the game, and you don't have to worry about people using said exploit. The issue I have is that if you allow the server the dictate the rules of engagement, you end up with a precedent of "Well the server let's me do it, so I'm doing it." the burden of responsibility is shifted away from our own actions, and onto the developers to correct every time something comes up. This is needed in large MMOs where players are expected to exploit mechanical advantages of the system. Is it the case in small, tight-knit RP community like here?
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Post by Dobian on Dec 27, 2019 11:35:33 GMT -5
The reality is that the server isn’t as friendly for characters that are 30+. There are fewer players to party with, and you are forced into a lot of soloing. Soloing is not fun, and grinding is not fun. This leads to players gravitating away from FRC so they can go play a game where it’s fun again. It’s either that or create a new character, but the more characters you create, the more of a time sink it becomes, and not everyone wants to make this server their sole focus for entertainment. One thing that people never bring up with regard to the solo grinding is that while OOC you can talk all you want about challenge or risk, IC your character doesn’t really want to die, and no character in their right mind is going to go into a place all by themselves where they have a fair chance of dying, just because it’s a “challenge.” No one is going to be there to raise them if they do. Dungeons on FRC for a solo 30+ tend to fall into two categories: ridiculously easy and ridiculously hard. There isn’t much of a middle ground. That’s because higher level dungeons are really designed with a party in mind. FRC might want to desgn a few higher level dungeons with soloing in mind, so you get a challenge but don’t have to worry about impending doom. This isn’t WoW, where you can push your character to the limit and take on the most impossible challenge for fun because you know you will respawn and can go right back at it. The consequences of dying on FRC are severe. There’s only so much the server can do. At the end of the day, it’s still a game, and games aren’t really designed to be played ad nauseum forever. Just like you don’t watch the same show over and over forever.
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Post by Southpaw on Dec 27, 2019 12:16:00 GMT -5
I think this, like many issues, is best handled on the non-player side in how the server is built. If monsters drastically below your level gave zero xp, and the gold in lower level dungeons wasn’t worth a much higher level character’s time, it would be a lot less tempting to go waltzing through the kobolds at level 30, and it wouldn’t be worth getting hot and bothered if someone did because they’re not leveling up or getting crazy powerful gear from the loot. As it is, my level 6 character profits just as much from clearing the goblin fort solo as my higher level characters do clearing dungeons at the level of the Eveningstar orc cave. In the real world, if someone offered me $10,000 to sip lemonade for an hour, I’m not turning it down because it’s too easy and I have no chance of getting killed. (Getting killed???) That’s totally senseless. I do believe this would be better managed on the non-player side by managing risks and rewards, especially in those dungeons in the level 10-20 range that reward like the kobold cave, or in some rare cases, reward less. There are some pros and cons to this argument. Yes if there is no mechanical advantage, why would someone even go there? Ex:Remove an exploit from the game, and you don't have to worry about people using said exploit. The issue I have is that if you allow the server the dictate the rules of engagement, you end up with a precedent of "Well the server let's me do it, so I'm doing it." the burden of responsibility is shifted away from our own actions, and onto the developers to correct every time something comes up. This is needed in large MMOs where players are expected to exploit mechanical advantages of the system. Is it the case in small, tight-knit RP community like here? I would argue that the ideal is for the game to have no exploits available, and this is limited by how much is possible to eliminate without removing features that are otherwise fun. But if it weren't for the possibility of exploits, there is no inherent value in having anything, at all, that tells you how to role play your character, outside of some basic rules about in character motivation, in character knowledge, and not creating character concepts that can only serve to disrupt the game like ridiculousness or inherent griefer characters and the like. Outside of that, the act of being told how to play has absolutely zero (0) inherent value in game enjoyment, absent a personal need to tell others what to do or be told what to do for the sake of it. In fact, a large part of the draw of role playing games in general is the absolute freedom in being able to have your character act absolutely ANY way you can imagine, and this facet is what sets live RPG's in general apart from all other modes of entertainment, from movie watching that gives absolutely no choice as to how characters act, to even menu driven RPG's that limit actions to a selection. Freedom of action is a defining characteristic of what we do here, and abridging it erodes the whole point of choosing this mode of entertainment out of all the activities we could be doing with our time. On the matter of responsibility for our actions, the general mode of responsibility for actions is to face IC consequences of doing what we do, not being told OOC'ly that we can't even run our character to do that. To use the ninja looting rule as an example, the desirable mode of play is for a monster to have a realistic chance of noticing a chest opening when an invisible or stealthy character opens it and begin trying to find them definitively, thus possibly resulting in a harrowing chase by an overwhelming guardian monster, not having a nasally voiced little rules gnome pop up in your head, wagging a finger, saying, "Now now ... you know you can't do that."
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Post by Dakarizon (Shroud) on Dec 27, 2019 13:00:26 GMT -5
On the matter of responsibility for our actions, the general mode of responsibility for actions is to face IC consequences of doing what we do, not being told OOC'ly that we can't even run our character to do that. To use the ninja looting rule as an example, the desirable mode of play is for a monster to have a realistic chance of noticing a chest opening when an invisible or stealthy character opens it and begin trying to find them definitively, thus possibly resulting in a harrowing chase by an overwhelming guardian monster, not having a nasally voiced little rules gnome pop up in your head, wagging a finger, saying, "Now now ... you know you can't do that." No one is going to argue that it would be ideal if there were no exploits, but there are. And there are limits to what the game engine can or cannot do. Playing on a PW involves some "pretending" always. Otherwise Greatgaunt has a mechanical population of 10. Being part of a community of players on a PW... you're role-playing. You're sitting there playing make-believe. We all are. We're an act, a play, a story. Everything we do is pretend. If everyone focuses on themselves and their own enjoyment... make it "mechanical" instead of making it about the story, and the enjoyment of others it erodes the very fabric of what this is. How much fun would you have here if no one rp'd anything? Why would you even bother logging in? Suspension of disbelief is a critical part of success in a game like this. There are rules in place to make sure that everyone follows a certain -minimum- threshold of conformity to a system that needs it. There is a tightrope we all walk between realism, and game mechanics. Our imagination is what keeps us on that rope. To bring up your scenario of "ninja looting": Situation as described: You sneak past a guardian... you open a chest. The system sends a signal to that monster (which since we're D&D based, makes a roll) it noticed the signal and realized someone was stealing its stuff. It's reacts by auto-targeting your character and you run away. Is that the situation you envision when you imagine the purpose of the ninja looting rule? Because I imagine a character who can OOC see all their hide/ms stats... max those skills, and go through a dungeon hitting every node and getting rich, all at no risk to themselves. Or use an invisibility spell. Should monsters be given true seeing? That brings about it's own set of headaches. To prevent this action, they put in place a ninja-looting rule. There could be more mechanical limitations put in place to combat this: -Add sound to the items you carry. -Make you manually remove a pack, set it on the ground, open it, take an item, put it in the pack, put the pack back on. If the creature notices you first, you run leaving all your items behind. -add weight to coins -add fatigue -Remove the mini map -force blur the screen so you can barely see in the dark unless you have a light source or racial features -spread out treasure randomly. I think what the OP was getting as was to use common sense. Just because you can do something, does that mean you should? "Absolute Freedom" isn't real. What you have is creative freedom, within the house rules set out by the DMs
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Post by NHmikey on Dec 27, 2019 13:19:25 GMT -5
Shroud, This is a truly great post imho. Thanks for your insight here because I think you are spot on. V/r, Mike On the matter of responsibility for our actions, the general mode of responsibility for actions is to face IC consequences of doing what we do, not being told OOC'ly that we can't even run our character to do that. To use the ninja looting rule as an example, the desirable mode of play is for a monster to have a realistic chance of noticing a chest opening when an invisible or stealthy character opens it and begin trying to find them definitively, thus possibly resulting in a harrowing chase by an overwhelming guardian monster, not having a nasally voiced little rules gnome pop up in your head, wagging a finger, saying, "Now now ... you know you can't do that." No one is going to argue that it would be ideal if there were no exploits, but there are. And there are limits to what the game engine can or cannot do. Playing on a PW involves some "pretending" always. Otherwise Greatgaunt has a mechanical population of 10. Being part of a community of players on a PW... you're role-playing. You're sitting there playing make-believe. We all are. We're an act, a play, a story. Everything we do is pretend. If everyone focuses on themselves and their own enjoyment... make it "mechanical" instead of making it about the story, and the enjoyment of others it erodes the very fabric of what this is. How much fun would you have here if no one rp'd anything? Why would you even bother logging in? Suspension of disbelief is a critical part of success in a game like this. There are rules in place to make sure that everyone follows a certain -minimum- threshold of conformity to a system that needs it. There is a tightrope we all walk between realism, and game mechanics. Our imagination is what keeps us on that rope. To bring up your scenario of "ninja looting": Situation as described: You sneak past a guardian... you open a chest. The system sends a signal to that monster (which since we're D&D based, makes a roll) it noticed the signal and realized someone was stealing its stuff. It's reacts by auto-targeting your character and you run away. Is that the situation you envision when you imagine the purpose of the ninja looting rule? Because I imagine a character who can OOC see all their hide/ms stats... max those skills, and go through a dungeon hitting every node and getting rich, all at no risk to themselves. Or use an invisibility spell. Should monsters be given true seeing? That brings about it's own set of headaches. To prevent this action, they put in place a ninja-looting rule. There could be more mechanical limitations put in place to combat this: -Add sound to the items you carry. -Make you manually remove a pack, set it on the ground, open it, take an item, put it in the pack, put the pack back on. If the creature notices you first, you run leaving all your items behind. -add weight to coins -add fatigue -Remove the mini map -force blur the screen so you can barely see in the dark unless you have a light source or racial features -spread out treasure randomly. I think what the OP was getting as was to use common sense. Just because you can do something, does that mean you should? "Absolute Freedom" isn't real. What you have is creative freedom, within the house rules set out by the DMs
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Post by malclave on Dec 27, 2019 13:30:16 GMT -5
The reality is that the server isn’t as friendly for characters that are 30+. There are fewer players to party with, and you are forced into a lot of soloing. Soloing is not fun, and grinding is not fun. This leads to players gravitating away from FRC so they can go play a game where it’s fun again. It’s either that or create a new character, but the more characters you create, the more of a time sink it becomes, and not everyone wants to make this server their sole focus for entertainment. One thing that people never bring up with regard to the solo grinding is that while OOC you can talk all you want about challenge or risk, IC your character doesn’t really want to die, and no character in their right mind is going to go into.a place all by themselves where they have a fair chance of dying, just because it’s a “challenge.” No one is going to be there to raise them if they do. Frankly, that's pretty much how I feel about all levels.
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