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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 17:08:57 GMT -5
The vagueness of the rule isn't a bad thing. It puts the ball in the players court on what is and is not exploiting a dungeon that is simply too easy for them. This is because they know what it's like to be a player, and they know that not all PCs are created equal (mechanically wise). Adrian the archer is level 10. With his setup (Feats, skills, equipment), he still runs a high risk of death running through an area like the warrens alone, with no backup or without relying in gold-eating potions. (And even with tons of backup, as I witnessed a few days ago.) Lorren the shield based fighter at level 10 was a bit luckier. I took her out of that dungeon because I soloed her around that level, using perhaps one or two CSWs to top off after shamans or before the BBEG. According to the language in the farming rule, there is no level restriction, simply a guideline for perceived difficulty that players are expected to abide by. We're going off an honor system, by and large, and it seems to be working fine. How about you? Can you please show where this 'rule' is posted? Hawk above in this thread posted a clear reference to the rule about farming. It is clear and does not mention dungeon level restrictions at all.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 17:10:52 GMT -5
So..basically you are saying the same thing I am?
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Post by Dakarizon (Shroud) on Dec 29, 2019 17:13:23 GMT -5
You should really relax. Like it or not, the DM Team, and not any individual DM, can ban players for a variety of reasons/rules infractions. The rule in question is subjective, has always been subjective, and will likely always be subjective, as several other rules are. Deal with it. If the server wanted hard level restrictions on dungeons they would probably already be there since the server is so old. As has been said, generally, players and DM's can tell when the spirit of rule is being broken. There is also a process that takes place so I am certain that no DM is abusing the power of the ban hammer. Banning isn't instantaneous either. Players get the opportunity to explain their actions, there are warnings that are given, and punishment, when warranted, is usually progressive. Are you even able to point to where this 'rule' is documented? On the forums, and when you create a new character you have to agree to it in order to enter Cormyr.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 17:19:35 GMT -5
Are you even able to point to where this 'rule' is documented? On the forums, and when you create a new character you have to agree to it in order to enter Cormyr. If this is true then I sincerely apologize. What specifically does it say about dungeon level restrictions? From what I have seen, this 'rule' that we are supposed to follow the 'spirit' of is not only vague, it is invisible.
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Post by NHmikey on Dec 29, 2019 17:25:28 GMT -5
Sure, and yes, it is within rule 10, as part of the farming definition. And no, it does not mention dungeon level restrictions. The issue isn’t a player at level x being in a x level dungeon, it is that if the dungeon is too easy for the character(s), they are violating rule 10. You should really relax. Like it or not, the DM Team, and not any individual DM, can ban players for a variety of reasons/rules infractions. The rule in question is subjective, has always been subjective, and will likely always be subjective, as several other rules are. Deal with it. If the server wanted hard level restrictions on dungeons they would probably already be there since the server is so old. As has been said, generally, players and DM's can tell when the spirit of rule is being broken. There is also a process that takes place so I am certain that no DM is abusing the power of the ban hammer. Banning isn't instantaneous either. Players get the opportunity to explain their actions, there are warnings that are given, and punishment, when warranted, is usually progressive. Are you even able to point to where this 'rule' is documented?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 17:25:32 GMT -5
I must have missed where someone said that. We've all been talking about the vague-by-design feature of the "no risk" clause of the farming rule.
What are you talking about?
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Post by NHmikey on Dec 29, 2019 17:27:23 GMT -5
Yes. I must have missed where someone said that. We've all been talking about the vague-by-design feature of the "no risk" clause of the farming rule. What are you talking about?
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Post by NHmikey on Dec 29, 2019 17:29:21 GMT -5
It appears you are just nit picking because server history and DM interpretation and comments make it pretty clear what the spirit of the rule is. On the forums, and when you create a new character you have to agree to it in order to enter Cormyr. If this is true then I sincerely apologize. What specifically does it say about dungeon level restrictions? From what I have seen, this 'rule' that we are supposed to follow the 'spirit' of is not only vague, it is invisible.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 17:30:35 GMT -5
Well look at that, I stand corrected. The rule is very vague, but it does in fact exist.
Never let it be said that I did not admit when I was wrong.
You have to be careful about putting a lot of stock in 'server history' and 'comments'. It should never be assumed that players have read the forum history, or anything beyond what is labeled as 'rules', or 'must read'.
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Post by NHmikey on Dec 29, 2019 17:53:03 GMT -5
Sure, and that’s great and all, except in this instance DM Hawk had already cited the rule in this very thread, gave an explanation, and asked players to abide by it. I am not sure what wasn’t clear about it at that point. Well look at that, I stand corrected. The rule is very vague, but it does in fact exist. Never let it be said that I did not admit when I was wrong. You have to be careful about putting a lot of stock in 'server history' and 'comments'. It should never be assumed that players have read the forum history, or anything beyond what is labeled as 'rules', or 'must read'.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 17:55:13 GMT -5
Yup, it was there the whole time and I missed it. 40 lashes with a wet noodle.
In fact though, I would propose that this applies to a very low number of the dungeons on the server, even for lvl 20. The Suzail orcs were mentioned in the OP but I can say that dungeon scales with level and can be challenging with many of the inhabitants granting more than 1xp, and it seems unlikely that epics would be hitting that cave just for the quest xp (150?). Even in the Bramblewood gnoll cave there are many kills that give more than 1xp to a level 15 or so, and no quest at all. So what are we talking about here really? Level 30 characters? Or just places within a stone's throw of Greatgaunt? There should be some rule of thumb that people can use as a guideline and the 1xp except for the boss seems like a good one.
I've said before I don't know why anyone would want to be level 30 on this server anyway, since it pretty much guarantees you will be soloing 90% of the time anyway.
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Post by MTGPackFoils on Dec 29, 2019 18:31:40 GMT -5
Yup, it was there the whole time and I missed it. 40 lashes with a wet noodle. In fact though, I would propose that this applies to a very low number of the dungeons on the server, even for lvl 20. The Suzail orcs were mentioned in the OP but I can say that dungeon scales with level and can be challenging with many of the inhabitants granting more than 1xp, and it seems unlikely that epics would be hitting that cave just for the quest xp (150?). Even in the Bramblewood gnoll cave there are many kills that give more than 1xp to a level 15 or so, and no quest at all. So what are we talking about here really? Level 30 characters? Or just places within a stone's throw of Greatgaunt? There should be some rule of thumb that people can use as a guideline and the 1xp except for the boss seems like a good one. I've said before I don't know why anyone would want to be level 30 on this server anyway, since it pretty much guarantees you will be soloing 90% of the time anyway. One doesn't have to be level 30 to notice they're going to solo nearly 90% of the time.
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Post by Dakarizon (Shroud) on Dec 29, 2019 19:01:53 GMT -5
Yup, it was there the whole time and I missed it. 40 lashes with a wet noodle. In fact though, I would propose that this applies to a very low number of the dungeons on the server, even for lvl 20. The Suzail orcs were mentioned in the OP but I can say that dungeon scales with level and can be challenging with many of the inhabitants granting more than 1xp, and it seems unlikely that epics would be hitting that cave just for the quest xp (150?). Even in the Bramblewood gnoll cave there are many kills that give more than 1xp to a level 15 or so, and no quest at all. So what are we talking about here really? Level 30 characters? Or just places within a stone's throw of Greatgaunt? There should be some rule of thumb that people can use as a guideline and the 1xp except for the boss seems like a good one. I've said before I don't know why anyone would want to be level 30 on this server anyway, since it pretty much guarantees you will be soloing 90% of the time anyway. Leveling and XP has never been, nor should it be, the main goal of playing here. All of these "vague" rules are in place to try and keep a certain pace. Because of the new-ish trend of racing to level 30 and above, all of the XP from quests were reduced. No matter what gets changed or modified, eventually you will be disappointed as you realize basing your game play on levels up will become more and more frustrating and irritating... and you will eventually grind to a halt sooner or later. Basing a rule off "common sense" has already worked for... 15 years? Now suddenly it's too difficult to grasp? If you're personally finding something to be challenging, then it probably is and you're fine. If you're breezing through a dungeon with little-to-no risk, then just make that your last trip there. I don't see how it's any more complicated than that. No one is going to give you trouble for using good judgement. Just seems pointless to invest so much time and resources into something so simple to understand.
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Post by Southpaw on Dec 29, 2019 19:21:17 GMT -5
I expressed an opinion. You "reinterpreted" my opinion. I used "inventiveness" to completely make up a scenario that depicted a concern I had: Which was when the system fails (and all systems can) what is done to correct it? I dislike the idea of have the "debug" the server every time a player engages in ban-able behavior. My own personal opinion, I would prefer people naturally gravitate to servers/places that suit their own needs/desires/play styles rather than trying to adapt their environment to suit their own personal tastes. I have very little interest in telling you personally what or what not to do beyond "Follow the rules". I'm simply someone with an opinion that is expressing my disagreement with yours. There's nothing personal. I find this a lot easier to understand clearly than previous posts. I also can respect the point about "gravitating to places that suit one's needs rather than changing the environment," as well as not asking staff to rewrite the entire system endlessly for every issue a person can dream up. One of the reasons I take a different stance from yours is that I don't envision a deluge of requests to rewrite the whole system, not that I'm unsympathetic to that concern. I don't want to keep going on forever on this thread, but now that I see what you're actually trying to say a lot clearer, I do want to at least give that acknowledgement.
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Post by Dakarizon (Shroud) on Dec 29, 2019 19:31:58 GMT -5
I expressed an opinion. You "reinterpreted" my opinion. I used "inventiveness" to completely make up a scenario that depicted a concern I had: Which was when the system fails (and all systems can) what is done to correct it? I dislike the idea of have the "debug" the server every time a player engages in ban-able behavior. My own personal opinion, I would prefer people naturally gravitate to servers/places that suit their own needs/desires/play styles rather than trying to adapt their environment to suit their own personal tastes. I have very little interest in telling you personally what or what not to do beyond "Follow the rules". I'm simply someone with an opinion that is expressing my disagreement with yours. There's nothing personal. I find this a lot easier to understand clearly than previous posts. I also can respect the point about "gravitating to places that suit one's needs rather than changing the environment," as well as not asking staff to rewrite the entire system endlessly for every issue a person can dream up. One of the reasons I take a different stance from yours is that I don't envision a deluge of requests to rewrite the whole system, not that I'm unsympathetic to that concern. I don't want to keep going on forever on this thread, but now that I see what you're actually trying to say a lot clearer, I do want to at least give that acknowledgement. Having different opinions and expressing them is really important. If everyone agreed on everything, things would be too boring. You have your ideas, others have theirs and I have mine. Hopefully, at the end of the day, we all walk away with more understanding of each other and come to a solution that fits this little slice of the world we keep logging onto Cheers
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Post by malclave on Dec 29, 2019 19:33:42 GMT -5
Leveling and XP has never been, nor should it be, the main goal of playing here. That should really be up to the individual player. It may not be what most people envision, but once players start telling other players what their reason for playing "should" be they're approaching Rule 1 territory.
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Post by Dakarizon (Shroud) on Dec 29, 2019 19:49:31 GMT -5
Leveling and XP has never been, nor should it be, the main goal of playing here. That should really be up to the individual player. It may not be what most people envision, but once players start telling other players what their reason for playing "should" be they're approaching Rule 1 territory. 1. The Golden Rule of FRC - The main rule on FRC is to have fun, but not at the expense of others. Be kind to your fellow roleplayers. Remember that the other characters are real people behind the screens of their own computers. It is unacceptable on FRC to harass or abuse other Players or Staff. FRC is a roleplaying server. Encouraging it's prosperity in that regard isn't breaking a rule 1. Disagreements happen, but respect is number one. If someone decides that leveling and grinding xp is their primary goal, that's really their business, but my opinion is that it shouldn't be. I consider roleplay to be the number 1 reason for the server to even exist. I've no power or authority to stop anyone from doing what they want, but I do have my opinions about it, that's all.
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Post by Animayhem on Dec 29, 2019 20:28:14 GMT -5
Yes this is a role play server, but leveling and getting gold is also part of role playing. Gaining levels you gain experience and you can flesh out your character and role play. Level knowledge s ooc anyway.
You need gold for decent gear which gear also reflects your role play. There will always be grinders and power builders it is more important to focus on yourself than others style of play.
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Post by malclave on Dec 29, 2019 20:57:06 GMT -5
That should really be up to the individual player. It may not be what most people envision, but once players start telling other players what their reason for playing "should" be they're approaching Rule 1 territory. 1. The Golden Rule of FRC - The main rule on FRC is to have fun, but not at the expense of others. Be kind to your fellow roleplayers. Remember that the other characters are real people behind the screens of their own computers. It is unacceptable on FRC to harass or abuse other Players or Staff. FRC is a roleplaying server. Encouraging it's prosperity in that regard isn't breaking a rule 1. Disagreements happen, but respect is number one. If someone decides that leveling and grinding xp is their primary goal, that's really their business, but my opinion is that it shouldn't be. I consider roleplay to be the number 1 reason for the server to even exist. I've no power or authority to stop anyone from doing what they want, but I do have my opinions about it, that's all. Fair enough. I guess I just took your statement as stronger than what you had intended.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 21:06:11 GMT -5
Yes this is a role play server, but leveling and getting gold is also part of role playing. Gaining levels you gain experience and you can flesh out your character and role play. Level knowledge s ooc anyway. You need gold for decent gear which gear also reflects your role play. There will always be grinders and power builders it is more important to focus on yourself than others style of play. This is my point too most of the time. Before complaining about what others are up to, please make sure it really is affecting you and you are not just being grumpy.
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Dec 29, 2019 21:33:51 GMT -5
Let's just not put the cart before the horse...
On one hand, adventuring, collecting gold, gear, whatever else you come in contact with or interact with in the world is inherent to the dnd experience. On the other hand, if this stuff is being done on an RP server without any RP steering how and why all that other stuff is happening in the first place, then we have a problem.
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Dec 29, 2019 21:40:28 GMT -5
Yes this is a role play server, but leveling and getting gold is also part of role playing. Gaining levels you gain experience and you can flesh out your character and role play. Level knowledge s ooc anyway. You need gold for decent gear which gear also reflects your role play. There will always be grinders and power builders it is more important to focus on yourself than others style of play. This is my point too most of the time. Before complaining about what others are up to, please make sure it really is affecting you and you are not just being grumpy. I think this is where we sometimes miss the mark though. High standards for anything are usually associated with discipline and elements of being picky. Players challenging other players to be better and expecting more from our peers is by no means a bad thing but the important part is that it comes from a place of compassion with the intent to help. If someone doesn't want help then there isn't much you can do anyhow but at least you tried. At the same time, if people are just being nit picky over things and the feedback to other players is coming at them in a negative or hostile fashion they probably aren't going to listen anyhow.
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Post by magiuss on Dec 30, 2019 7:19:29 GMT -5
Here's a simple solution. How about actually stating the rule somewhere? Is there a list of level restrictions per dungeon? To me, it is not helpful for individual DMs to go around giving warnings based on their own personal opinion of what is or is not 'challenging' for a certain character or group. It is even less useful for players to go on the forum bloviating about it. If a DM were to ever give me such a warning, my first response would be 'ok thank you, can you please tell me the level restriction of this area so I will know in the future?' My next question would be to ask if this area is intended to be level restricted, why is it not enforced in a similar manner as the low level dungeons in Greatgaunt? It is a simple quick thing to do. Why does there have to be such forum drama when there is such a simple solution available? Why can't someone just clearly state what this so called 'rule' is that they are are accusing people of violating? Is it 1xp? Should it be called the '1xp' rule? If you get 1xp then it is too easy? Someone make a clear statement about it please. Someone with the authority to make such a declaration. Where is the forum drama in this thread?
Sure, it has had a few missunderstandings perhaps, but as far as I can see, the discussion has been kept civil and in a polite tone As it has been mentioned before, it is clear to both the player(s) and DM(s) when an area is no longer a challenge. OOC indications or level caps in dungeons out of GG are considered immersion breaking and in a way, empower the RP-Lite monster we are trying to slay.
The dungeons in GG are made that way because new characters need a safe environment where they can adventure without being displaced and outclassed by more experienced ones. They in most cases, cannot adventure anywhere else in the module at this time. Thing is Mecha.. there is no rules stating anything about a dungeon's challenge.. the rule states Risk.. and if you want to lawyer the wording.. removing your armor.. doing it without buff has now increased your risk and a lvl 30 could go do goblin fortress for around 1500 exp cause of the huge amount of easy 1 xp creatures. wihtout having broken the Rules. because of the wording. i belive that is what the original post is about..
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 7:24:29 GMT -5
Players: Demand more rules DMs: Make more rules Players: =O
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Post by NHmikey on Dec 30, 2019 8:33:36 GMT -5
Fair point Magiuss, but I wouldn’t want that to be my argument before the DM Team trying to defend myself from getting a punishment/ban handed down. Lawyering the wording when one knows they are in the wrong is just lame, and usually doesn’t work. For the life of me I can’t understand the argument here when the DM Team has pretty clearly established the intent behind the rule. Where is the forum drama in this thread?
Sure, it has had a few missunderstandings perhaps, but as far as I can see, the discussion has been kept civil and in a polite tone As it has been mentioned before, it is clear to both the player(s) and DM(s) when an area is no longer a challenge. OOC indications or level caps in dungeons out of GG are considered immersion breaking and in a way, empower the RP-Lite monster we are trying to slay.
The dungeons in GG are made that way because new characters need a safe environment where they can adventure without being displaced and outclassed by more experienced ones. They in most cases, cannot adventure anywhere else in the module at this time. Thing is Mecha.. there is no rules stating anything about a dungeon's challenge.. the rule states Risk.. and if you want to lawyer the wording.. removing your armor.. doing it without buff has now increased your risk and a lvl 30 could go do goblin fortress for around 1500 exp cause of the huge amount of easy 1 xp creatures. wihtout having broken the Rules. because of the wording. i belive that is what the original post is about..
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Post by DM Hawk on Dec 30, 2019 13:10:33 GMT -5
Howdy folks,
I think this discussion has gone on long enough for now. Some good points were raised and some not so good points.
I'm drawing the line at rules lawyering.
We have rules on FRC, probably more than any of us are happy with. We have the rules to uphold the atmosphere for the server FRC is intended to be. The rules have developed over time to address behaviors that go against the spirit of FRC.
The wording of rule 10 is intended to be brief and broad because we want to play a game, not to write a rulebook.
This rule is being called vague and subjective by some. The rule is broad to allow for all the variables of characters and players that come into play when adventuring and an expectation that our players agree to honor the rules and spirit of FRC when playing. The rule places an expectation on the individual player to recognize when their character has outgrown a dungeon and to move on.
There are merits to placing mechanical restrictions on more dungeons. There are also drawbacks. Not every character of the same level is as capable and not every player of characters of the same level are as skilled. Rather than impose hard and fast mechanical restrictions that may work against players that truly struggle, we've preferred to ask our players to be part of the process by recognizing when a dungeon no longer poses risk or challenge to their characters normally.
In the context of the spirit of FRC, the idea of an epic character stripping down their gear to justify soaking up XP from a mass of low level monsters is ridiculous. This is an out of character manipulation to find a loophole in the house rules to get at fast and easy XP. This violates the spirit of FRC. It shouldn't have to be said, but to be clear - Don't do this.
The rule has been in place for a long time and has mostly worked. Most of our players throughout the years understand the rule, understand the intention behind it, and play responsibly. We're proud of them and grateful that they've done their part to help maintain FRC for us all.
We have some players that truly struggle to understand the rules and concepts, especially with language barriers. The FRC Team has a lot of patience for our players and we engage to help when this occurs in game.
Above in this thread folks have talked about banning and punishment, so I'll address it. We don't administer these things lightly. We do so when we must to maintain fairness and atmosphere for everyone. Hopefully a conversation will help resolve the issue amicably. If it doesn't we're prepared to escalate. Unless the behavior is very bad, there are several chances to change course before we draw a line.
Most players never have to worry about this and shouldn't play with a cloud of concern overhead. If there are any problems like this, the individual player is informed and we try to work through the issues together.
So I think enough has been said in this thread. Let's move on from this topic and get back to having fun.
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