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Post by Dobian on Dec 27, 2019 14:24:14 GMT -5
If subjectivity is an issue, the simple solution is to just make enemies give 0 xp in dungeons above a certain level. Then no one has to think about it anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 16:57:58 GMT -5
Again, to get back to the simple solution.
You don't see epics in the Greatgaunt elven ruins. That's because the builders made a point not to allow it. Took about 7 seconds module editing.
Why all this fussing about 'zero xp' and lower gold.
Lot's of fun I guess to criticize others' play style and show how your rp is soooooooooooo much better than others. Really some people just like to create forum drama I think. Like the guy in another recent thread calling other people's builds cheesy.
It's a bit stuck up if you ask me, to be worried about what others are up to in this regard. You think it's a waste of time to visit a certain dungeon, then don't visit it. Problem solved. Think a build is cheesy? Then don't do it.
You think someone else making a different decision is ruining your fun somehow? Then get a life.
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Post by FlyingMidget on Dec 27, 2019 17:57:22 GMT -5
Again, to get back to the simple solution. You don't see epics in the Greatgaunt elven ruins. That's because the builders made a point not to allow it. Took about 7 seconds module editing. Why all this fussing about 'zero xp' and lower gold. Between discussion of what the right level range is right for literally each individual dungeon on the server taking a god awful amount of time (and it would require a lot of discussion regarding what is considered fair due to how subjective such is and how open the team wants the dungeon to be for less optimally built characters or players that aren't very mechanic focused), the fact that such hard ooc restrictions can stop RP (players are unable to assist with rescuing IC friends based on some OOC mechanic, or outright grind to a halt a parties decision to go out, where can we go, nope can't go here I'm one level over some arbitrary ooc restriction they have to work around IC). A hard, OOC script enforced limit will also make people think less if the place is a place they should be visiting and use "the restrictions didn't stop me" card as if it's approval that they should be there even though any such restriction would require a lot of leeway to the point it just gives people a false sense of they are doing the right thing if they are mechanically powerful when the reason the leeway was given to begin with for the opposite end of the spectrum.
Not all characters, or even classes are created equally, not every player is as skilled as one another, to myself I stop going to the Kobolds around level 6 on almost every character, but I'm aware of level 10's that have actually died there and gotten a rescued because a party member got away to seek help. We don't want to punish players that make less optimal characters for the sake of Roleplay (or players that are new / just not good with making a workable character), they shouldn't be punished OOCly if the area was actually challenging to their character.
It's one of those issues that needs a lot of thought, discussion & agreement upon from all of the DM team that it is the correct direction for FRC and the ruling has as far as I know, been the right decision for FRC when people don't push the limits of it.
In short, it's really not as "simple" as people make it sound, 7 seconds of module editing. . . it's probably more like 1-2 minute per dungeon, considering how mind numbing the process is & toolset module load time & the load time between areas (and we've a lot of dungeon maps, many with multiple areas, that would all have to be done individually) after all discussion & the decision have been made. FM.
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Dec 27, 2019 18:44:09 GMT -5
There's already a CR rating system in place. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too difficult to shut off xp gains across the board when character level overwhelms the CR rating of the creature by (insert certain number of levels over CR rating). The idea of shutting people out of segments of the server by shaming finger wags or by by mechanical shut-outs with the exception of the most starter of starter dungeons just seems wrong to me.
I just don't see how a level 20 or 30 wrongs anyone and thus shouldn't be allowed to run through the goblin fortress. It is definitely not the most efficient means of time to gp/xp gain so it shouldn't even be considered farming. I personally don't do it cause my paladin cuts through crypts for more xp and gold like a hot knife through butter. I'd probably sustain more damage by the goblins by the sheer number of possible natural 20s that may happen over those super squishy ghoulish bastards.
What I do see as wrong though is how TERRIBLE Holy Sword is. I mean, how could THE flagship paladin spell which takes 15 levels of investment be obsolete at the moment it is acquired? The only place I could use it and enjoy the effects it offers is while running through the goblin fortress. The 16 spell resistance is perfect for those magic missiles. The dispel actually works against the Ghostly Visage that the goblins cast. Seeing that small puff of smoke above my head as magic missiles fade away into nothingness is so ... so beautiful.
#dontforcepaladinsintogoblinfort #FIXHOLYSWORD
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 18:46:04 GMT -5
Again, to get back to the simple solution. You don't see epics in the Greatgaunt elven ruins. That's because the builders made a point not to allow it. Took about 7 seconds module editing. Why all this fussing about 'zero xp' and lower gold. Between discussion of what the right level range is right for literally each individual dungeon on the server taking a god awful amount of time (and it would require a lot of discussion regarding what is considered fair due to how subjective such is and how open the team wants the dungeon to be for less optimally built characters or players that aren't very mechanic focused), the fact that such hard ooc restrictions can stop RP (players are unable to assist with rescuing IC friends based on some OOC mechanic, or outright grind to a halt a parties decision to go out, where can we go, nope can't go here I'm one level over some arbitrary ooc restriction they have to work around IC). A hard, OOC script enforced limit will also make people think less if the place is a place they should be visiting and use "the restrictions didn't stop me" card as if it's approval that they should be there even though any such restriction would require a lot of leeway to the point it just gives people a false sense of they are doing the right thing if they are mechanically powerful when the reason the leeway was given to begin with for the opposite end of the spectrum.
Not all characters, or even classes are created equally, not every player is as skilled as one another, to myself I stop going to the Kobolds around level 6 on almost every character, but I'm aware of level 10's that have actually died there and gotten a rescued because a party member got away to seek help. We don't want to punish players that make less optimal characters for the sake of Roleplay (or players that are new / just not good with making a workable character), they shouldn't be punished OOCly if the area was actually challenging to their character.
It's one of those issues that needs a lot of thought, discussion & agreement upon from all of the DM team that it is the correct direction for FRC and the ruling has as far as I know, been the right decision for FRC when people don't push the limits of it.
In short, it's really not as "simple" as people make it sound, 7 seconds of module editing. . . it's probably more like 1-2 minute per dungeon, considering how mind numbing the process is & toolset module load time & the load time between areas (and we've a lot of dungeon maps, many with multiple areas, that would all have to be done individually) after all discussion & the decision have been made. FM.
Not to mention that after those 2-7 mins of edits, next comes review time to ensure things work as intended, and then the changes to be merged need to have a time and date where the DM in charge can do it. I Wish we had the magic wand to simply add or tweak stuff instantly at will.
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Post by xeneize on Dec 27, 2019 18:56:12 GMT -5
I thought there was a rule where someone could only visit the same dungeon 1/week after level 6
As for high levels on a low level dungeon this is subjective and relative to character build. Some people have builds that are late bloomers and will only become effective at a later date, by then and only then can they start experimenting on their own which often means revisiting 'low level' places which in fact might be challenging to them adventuring on their own.
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Dec 27, 2019 20:27:30 GMT -5
There's already a CR rating system in place. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too difficult to shut off xp gains across the board when character level overwhelms the CR rating of the creature by (insert certain number of levels over CR rating). The idea of shutting people out of segments of the server by shaming finger wags or by by mechanical shut-outs with the exception of the most starter of starter dungeons just seems wrong to me. I just don't see how a level 20 or 30 wrongs anyone and thus shouldn't be allowed to run through the goblin fortress. It is definitely not the most efficient means of time to gp/xp gain so it shouldn't even be considered farming. I personally don't do it cause my paladin cuts through crypts for more xp and gold like a hot knife through butter. I'd probably sustain more damage by the goblins by the sheer number of possible natural 20s that may happen over those super squishy ghoulish bastards. What I do see as wrong though is how TERRIBLE Holy Sword is. I mean, how could THE flagship paladin spell which takes 15 levels of investment be obsolete at the moment it is acquired? The only place I could use it and enjoy the effects it offers is while running through the goblin fortress. The 16 spell resistance is perfect for those magic missiles. The dispel actually works against the Ghostly Visage that the goblins cast. Seeing that small puff of smoke above my head as magic missiles fade away into nothingness is so ... so beautiful. #dontforcepaladinsintogoblinfort #FIXHOLYSWORD Of course it can harm others to do that kind of thing. At one point I had one of my appropriately-leveled characters heading to a certain dungeon near Suzail and encountered a high epic character clearing it well above the appropriate level with an epic mummy. My character, not being an idiot, had to hide. Even had they shown themselves, it couldn't have been a 'let's finish this together' moment, because they were well outside the ten-level limit. It put a hard end to that adventure because the epic was in the area, so they lost out on the potential gains that week. And yes, it was reported to the staff at the time.
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Dec 27, 2019 21:07:26 GMT -5
That's not causing any harm. That's first come first serve. I wasn't harmed that one time I went to Burger King and they ran out of Whopper patties. I just went to McDonalds instead. On the upside, the epic character probably finished the dungeon in a fraction of the time an appropriately leveled character/group would have.
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Dec 27, 2019 21:24:09 GMT -5
That's not causing any harm. That's first come first serve. I wasn't harmed that one time I went to Burger King and they ran out of Whopper patties. I just went to McDonalds instead. On the upside, the epic character probably finished the dungeon in a fraction of the time an appropriately leveled character/group would have. When you're displaced, it is not. Being there, seeing them arrive and then hiding, and then having to leave because of it is what I was describing.
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Post by Animayhem on Dec 27, 2019 23:48:11 GMT -5
I think what is most frustrating is the seven day rule when it comes to parties. You may have five people and suggest places but it is stymied as one or more said no I was just there.
Then you either break up or attempt a high risk dungeon. Sometimes the dungeons are far away that due to your time constraints you may not be able to finish so you either decline or the group accepts the fact and you log out.
In cases like these personally I have had to opt out which kinda bites as I need xp for my characters.
I am not criticizing the players who come on and squeeze as many dungeons as they can.
Time zones and play times hard to get in sync sometimes.
I know spontaneity is optimal but sometimes planning ahead, especially if you have regulars you travel with can help.
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Dec 28, 2019 0:39:04 GMT -5
When you're displaced, it is not. Being there, seeing them arrive and then hiding, and then having to leave because of it is what I was describing. To be fair, Mummy Dust could be taken at level 21 soooo … Chances are you may have actually have been able to travel with them if you were soloing either of the Suzail (orcs, orcs, ogres, urog) with a stealthy character. Now on the flipside, you hiding and the person not knowing you existed there isn't exactly strong-arming you out of the dungeon. Even if he did strong-arm you out of it, PvP happens. And PvP is never an even playing field. From another angle, it is probably best you weren't caught in the dungeon by the guy with a mummy warrior cause he may have killed you and made you into his next undead minion. But to me from the minimal information available here and in your last post, it sounds like you surrendered the dungeon out of fear of IC repercussions of facing up against the guy walking around with a mummy. These things happen and one-off situations like this shouldn't be used to deny people playing in a sandbox. Putting hardcoded boundaries and punishing players who are already basically punishing themselves for farming inefficiently, probably isn't the best way for the DM team to make use of their resources. They should be putting their heads together trying to figure out how fix Holy Sword.
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Post by Sioladuil on Dec 28, 2019 3:02:14 GMT -5
Threads like this pop up fairly regularly... I have typed pages and pages of responces in previous years... So I'm Going to keep it simple now.
Speaking as a Euro player, on behalf of Euro players, at the times we play there are rarely many people on.
As a hint - when I originally logged on to play yesterday (28/12/19) there was two people online. Theravien and myself. The level difference was massive and he was off doing his own thing - because he was the only one on - so I went off to do my thing.
This is fairly common of the play time of a none US player. We find ourselves having to to either not play or solo fairly frequently. Now, depending on what kind of character you are playing, depends on what you are going to do. My level 7 cleric can do most of the dungeons around his level, and a few higher ones, solo.
Somebody with less server knowledge and a weaker early level character is not going to be able to do that and will have to adjust accordingly.
This results in some people doing lower level dungeons. But if the choice is do a lower level area or don't play - do the lower level area.
As long as it is not causing a problem for anyone else and someone is enjoying their play time - let them have at it.
Having said that - if you are online and there is a fair few people on - don't drag your character through low level dungeons. Send tells, arrange stuff, challenge each other.
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Dec 28, 2019 9:22:26 GMT -5
When you're displaced, it is not. Being there, seeing them arrive and then hiding, and then having to leave because of it is what I was describing. To be fair, Mummy Dust could be taken at level 21 soooo … Chances are you may have actually have been able to travel with them if you were soloing either of the Suzail (orcs, orcs, ogres, urog) with a stealthy character. Now on the flipside, you hiding and the person not knowing you existed there isn't exactly strong-arming you out of the dungeon. Even if he did strong-arm you out of it, PvP happens. And PvP is never an even playing field. From another angle, it is probably best you weren't caught in the dungeon by the guy with a mummy warrior cause he may have killed you and made you into his next undead minion. But to me from the minimal information available here and in your last post, it sounds like you surrendered the dungeon out of fear of IC repercussions of facing up against the guy walking around with a mummy. These things happen and one-off situations like this shouldn't be used to deny people playing in a sandbox. Putting hardcoded boundaries and punishing players who are already basically punishing themselves for farming inefficiently, probably isn't the best way for the DM team to make use of their resources. They should be putting their heads together trying to figure out how fix Holy Sword. Minimal information was offered to try and avoid pinpointing the exact player. I am aware of the mechanics behind acquiring the mummy dust feat and know where their level was at the time. I wasn't even making an argument for hard-coded entries; I was using that as an example of why inappropriately-leveled jaunts can interrupt or harm lower level characters. Of course my character was going to hide up against an epic mummy. They had no wish to confront a powerful necromancer and potentially be killed as a witness.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 10:49:54 GMT -5
If some players want to kill 100 1XP goblins to gain 100 XP per gaming hour, while also risking being noticed by a DM who could issue a warning or a ban, those players won't last long. Sooner or later they would be caught or realize they are wasting their time.
Edit: A real problem are some of the older low or mid level dungeons that still have the more generous loot tables in place. Convert those to new loot and most players won't bother with them after certain stage.
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Dec 28, 2019 11:28:39 GMT -5
We already know it's Mystogan, Fluffy. That necromancing rascal shouldnt be spared a public shaming!
Down with Mystogan!
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Post by Animayhem on Dec 28, 2019 12:50:21 GMT -5
Threads like this pop up fairly regularly... I have typed pages and pages of responces in previous years... So I'm Going to keep it simple now. Speaking as a Euro player, on behalf of Euro players, at the times we play there are rarely many people on. As a hint - when I originally logged on to play yesterday (28/12/19) there was two people online. Theravien and myself. The level difference was massive and he was off doing his own thing - because he was the only one on - so I went off to do my thing. This is fairly common of the play time of a none US player. We find ourselves having to to either not play or solo fairly frequently. Now, depending on what kind of character you are playing, depends on what you are going to do. My level 7 cleric can do most of the dungeons around his level, and a few higher ones, solo. Somebody with less server knowledge and a weaker early level character is not going to be able to do that and will have to adjust accordingly. This results in some people doing lower level dungeons. But if the choice is do a lower level area or don't play - do the lower level area. As long as it is not causing a problem for anyone else and someone is enjoying their play time - let them have at it. Having said that - if you are online and there is a fair few people on - don't drag your character through low level dungeons. Send tells, arrange stuff, challenge each other. Actually it happens fairly a lot with any time zone it is the way of the world and the game. I am not a solo player as it does not really make sense here( in my opinion) unless you are between level 1-6 as you are not limited yet by the once every seven days. I send tells to people I have interacted with sometimes things click and sometimes not. Many times I have had decent rp and sometimes nothing. Could I solo with any of my characters? Probably but in doing so I could risk not being able to travel as I just did the dungeon. If it seems when I am on the only thing to do would be solo then I will leave and try another day.
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Post by Sioladuil on Dec 28, 2019 19:38:25 GMT -5
Threads like this pop up fairly regularly... I have typed pages and pages of responces in previous years... So I'm Going to keep it simple now. Speaking as a Euro player, on behalf of Euro players, at the times we play there are rarely many people on. As a hint - when I originally logged on to play yesterday (28/12/19) there was two people online. Theravien and myself. The level difference was massive and he was off doing his own thing - because he was the only one on - so I went off to do my thing. This is fairly common of the play time of a none US player. We find ourselves having to to either not play or solo fairly frequently. Now, depending on what kind of character you are playing, depends on what you are going to do. My level 7 cleric can do most of the dungeons around his level, and a few higher ones, solo. Somebody with less server knowledge and a weaker early level character is not going to be able to do that and will have to adjust accordingly. This results in some people doing lower level dungeons. But if the choice is do a lower level area or don't play - do the lower level area. As long as it is not causing a problem for anyone else and someone is enjoying their play time - let them have at it. Having said that - if you are online and there is a fair few people on - don't drag your character through low level dungeons. Send tells, arrange stuff, challenge each other. Actually it happens fairly a lot with any time zone it is the way of the world and the game. I am not a solo player as it does not really make sense here( in my opinion) unless you are between level 1-6 as you are not limited yet by the once every seven days. I send tells to people I have interacted with sometimes things click and sometimes not. Many times I have had decent rp and sometimes nothing. Could I solo with any of my characters? Probably but in doing so I could risk not being able to travel as I just did the dungeon. If it seems when I am on the only thing to do would be solo then I will leave and try another day. Sure - and that makes sense if there are usually people on when you are playing. Unfortunately for me, and many other Euro players, when we play their is only one or two on. The choice is literally never play, or play one day a week or actually use our spare time and play the video game for our own enjoyment as we want to. *Shrugs*
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Post by Southpaw on Dec 29, 2019 0:27:24 GMT -5
The issue I have is that if you allow the server the dictate the rules of engagement, you end up with a precedent of "Well the server let's me do it, so I'm doing it." the burden of responsibility is shifted away from our own actions, and onto the developers to correct every time something comes up. It seems to me the further we get from the point I was actually trying to make, the more disconnected we get, so I'm going back to this quote to take another shot. The issue we've been talking about is removing potential flaws from the system, specifically pertaining to handling the farming issue by scaling loot across dungeon levels. When you say, "...you end up with a precedent of "Well the server let's me do it, so I'm doing it." the burden of responsibility is shifted away from our own actions, and onto the developers to correct every time something comes up," I'm going to retranslate this very loosely as, "bad things will happen." What I take from this quote you've made is basically, "If you remove the flaws from the system, bad things will happen." This would basically suggest that we are better off having a flawed system than we are with a better system, because a better system will cause bad things to happen. Before I respond any further, is this what you mean?
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Post by Dakarizon (Shroud) on Dec 29, 2019 1:51:08 GMT -5
I'll just illustrate my point: Let's make a few assumptions: -The player in this example is fictional, but I'll pretend it's Stabbing's paladin, because it's a funny image to me. -The player is familiar with the server rules -With the new system, this rule is handled by scaling look and xp -With the old system, this rule is handled by players respecting the rules as written here
Current system: Player A is farming. He's got a lvl 25 paladin in the goblin fort, smiting them with his post 1.69 neutered holy avenger. He's earning 1xp/kill, and a decent amount of coin. A dm messages him, saying that he shouldn't be there, and issues a warning and/or removes him from the area.
"Better" system Player A is back at the goblins. He's got his new OP holy avenger with the onhit: slay alignment evil DC24/25% property. He's trying it out on the goblins. They give 0xp and because of his level, drop 0 gold/treasure. But he's bored and is just killing time anyway. He's having fun watching the goblins die. The DM sees him, shrugs, and moves on. Not like he's gaining anything? Right?
Now in example 1, we saw some person-to-person enforcement of the rules, and the player was "caught". If this becomes a habit, the player might be looking down the barrel of a ban-cannon. This is our current system. Not perfect, not always enforced, but that's how it exists today.
In the "better system", should the DM interfere? The system is in place, the player isn't gaining anything. But what are other players losing? What about the level 5-8s that wanted to explore that area, but Mr. Epic Paladin is farming cheap thrills? And if the DM enforces it... what's the point of the changes?
Would an even better system boot the player breaking the rule and give him a "warning token" in his inventory? What if the epic paladin wants to rescue his low-level friend? Or has a valid reason for being there?
Then this:
What if... Mr Paladin goes to another low level area, and for some reason that area wasn't changed properly? "Hah", he says. "What a bunch of suckers. This place is easy-town, population me baby!" and proceeds to clear the area. Under example 1, maybe Mr paladin would be more careful about breaking rules...he knows it's wrong and was already reprimanded. but here he's not breaking rules, he's allowed to go where he wants. It's not his fault the scripter made a mistake!
Not only are the changes you suggest more complex than they may seem... which of the two scenarios will lead to a better community member?
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Post by dwarvenkoff on Dec 29, 2019 4:58:50 GMT -5
Then it looks to an impartial script determining based on something like HD if an area is too easy for you. Is the real issue here that folks are just going out and leveling too quickly? That someone is barreling through low level areas not giving level appropriate PCs a chance to have a turn at the area that week? Or is by chance that someone would rather go out and earn XP then sit and chat in the cities? FRC has all kinds I don't think a system change will solve any of the issues brought up here, just leave some dungeons for other folks to do, try to be part of the world where/when you can or feel is appropriate. I really wish players would stop looking at how others are playing and instead just focus on how they themselves are playing. Also if XP hits Zero your just going to find Players who show up for short bursts and then go seek fun elsewhere I've seen this before and if you are the person feeling neglected in the square go try and follow the person or try and dial it up a notch with being interesting or odd, if nothing happens then it isn't your fault and just let everyone go about their business.
I think the system is fine as it is, just we all may need a reminder every now and then, I think this was it.
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Post by Southpaw on Dec 29, 2019 6:47:48 GMT -5
I'll just illustrate my point: Let's make a few assumptions: -The player in this example is fictional, but I'll pretend it's Stabbing's paladin, because it's a funny image to me. -The player is familiar with the server rules -With the new system, this rule is handled by scaling look and xp -With the old system, this rule is handled by players respecting the rules as written here Current system: Player A is farming. He's got a lvl 25 paladin in the goblin fort, smiting them with his post 1.69 neutered holy avenger. He's earning 1xp/kill, and a decent amount of coin. A dm messages him, saying that he shouldn't be there, and issues a warning and/or removes him from the area. "Better" system Player A is back at the goblins. He's got his new OP holy avenger with the onhit: slay alignment evil DC24/25% property. He's trying it out on the goblins. They give 0xp and because of his level, drop 0 gold/treasure. But he's bored and is just killing time anyway. He's having fun watching the goblins die. The DM sees him, shrugs, and moves on. Not like he's gaining anything? Right? Now in example 1, we saw some person-to-person enforcement of the rules, and the player was "caught". If this becomes a habit, the player might be looking down the barrel of a ban-cannon. This is our current system. Not perfect, not always enforced, but that's how it exists today. In the "better system", should the DM interfere? The system is in place, the player isn't gaining anything. But what are other players losing? What about the level 5-8s that wanted to explore that area, but Mr. Epic Paladin is farming cheap thrills? And if the DM enforces it... what's the point of the changes? Would an even better system boot the player breaking the rule and give him a "warning token" in his inventory? What if the epic paladin wants to rescue his low-level friend? Or has a valid reason for being there? Then this: What if... Mr Paladin goes to another low level area, and for some reason that area wasn't changed properly? "Hah", he says. "What a bunch of suckers. This place is easy-town, population me baby!" and proceeds to clear the area. Under example 1, maybe Mr paladin would be more careful about breaking rules...he knows it's wrong and was already reprimanded. but here he's not breaking rules, he's allowed to go where he wants. It's not his fault the scripter made a mistake! Not only are the changes you suggest more complex than they may seem... which of the two scenarios will lead to a better community member? I’m not going to respond to this point by point, because if you think people are going to go running through areas for kicks whacking zero xp creatures for little to no gain, not only do I not see that happening, but the farming rule has nothing to do with people whacking monsters for kicks or occupying dungeons that lower level characters could be using. It is there, very specifically, to stop risk free gain, and states this in so many words in its description. I honestly think someone somewhere has a fascination with telling people what to do through the rules, and I think this post is a perfect illustration of the inventiveness that comes out to defend the act of telling people what to do when it’s challenged. The only way I’m going to believe otherwise is by FRC showing me contrary evidence by finding ways of addressing these sorts of issues in ways that don’t rely on telling people what to do through the rules.
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Post by Dakarizon (Shroud) on Dec 29, 2019 10:22:47 GMT -5
I expressed an opinion. You "reinterpreted" my opinion. I used "inventiveness" to completely make up a scenario that depicted a concern I had: Which was when the system fails (and all systems can) what is done to correct it? I dislike the idea of have the "debug" the server every time a player engages in ban-able behavior.
My own personal opinion, I would prefer people naturally gravitate to servers/places that suit their own needs/desires/play styles rather than trying to adapt their environment to suit their own personal tastes. I have very little interest in telling you personally what or what not to do beyond "Follow the rules". I'm simply someone with an opinion that is expressing my disagreement with yours. There's nothing personal.
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Post by MTGPackFoils on Dec 29, 2019 10:48:12 GMT -5
Wow. What a thread. Let’s see if I can provide some insight.
Generally speaking as people we don’t do anything without receiving something on the other end. “What’s in it for me?” is a commonly used phrase. This can be applied in many walks of life such as:
Going to the grocery store Asking someone on a date Going to see a movie Applying for a job Playing a board game Going for a walk ...and etc
Everything we do in live has some benefit to it, and when we acquire some benefit it reassures is that we chose correctly, and received something for our time. Even if the result is negative in the end you at least have discovered that you can direct your efforts elsewhere. Groceries too expensive? Look for a store that saves you money. Date went bad? Might be time to look elsewhere. The movie sucked? Well at least you saw it, and now can move on to the next movie. ...and so on.
Putting time into something, and receiving nothing, or little reward for time is not going to lead to a positive experience. The player will become difficult to work with over time. Everything in game will feel like a chore, and the player may feel excluded from the game. This could happen even if the character plays to the spirit of the pen & paper game as well as the setting (ie: traditional race/class builds), and plays by the server rules (always RP, doesn’t bank skill points, not in it for power gaming/bloodthirst, etc).
While we all have different ways we want to play, which is fine if done within the server rules, I feel things are vague once you leave Greatgaunt.
This is also assuming anyone ever leaves that town because it seems like the capital of Cornyr more than Suzail does.
From my understanding once you leave GG dungeons can only be visited 1/real life week. What if a player wants to leave GG, and go through every dungeon (except the Kobold caves because those link directly to GG) all the way to Valkur’s Roar? Why would it be ok for only those of a certain level if, per the rule, we can do that?
Just because a character is level (insert random number above 14 here) doesn’t mean that dinky little Kobolds can’t be an issue for a small town, and the player is recruited to help.
The “farming” rules seem subjective to me in this because I’ve done what I have described above on my main, and one of my alts. Both are very different in their levels, and there are still some places neither can access due to gates being locked unless one is skilled, or has Rogue levels (which honestly restricting lower level areas this way is imho a restraint...more on that in a moment).
If a player who’s...for example...level 21 should not be leaving Greatgaunt once a week to eventually fight the Ogres in their cave on the way to Roar, then perhaps we need to address “hanging around GG”. With my alt the group I play with have specifically done that on our own.
When it comes soloing I have soloed most of my time leveling up on my main.It sucks. When the options are “solo or don’t play” that doesn’t leave one in a positive state of mind. We, as the community, also can’t expect everyone to “RP and get in a group” as -the only- solution for this “problem”. People want to play, and we need to come up with a balanced solution.
Yes finding groups to play with on the regular, and perhaps even forming guilds is great. However what does one do when your character level is lower than the others you group with? Now you are either at risk of being squished by threats when going as a group, the group has to go to a lower level dungeon for them (but might be appropriate for you) to avoid you dying, or you get no XP because one character is more than 10 levels higher than you. In either of those scenarios you, the lowest level player in your group, are only getting 1xp a kill. So grouping is not really a solution either. This leads that player to perhaps look at soloing to “fill in the gap”,...and then they die setting them back further.
So as you can see there is no one way, clear cut, easy solution. Not all characters (and even players) fit into “RP with others” because there may be RP reasons your characters and others should not interact. There could be issues with a player and their play style that you don’t like. There could be issues where the time commitment for that RP takes up your entire day off from work which is not something you wanted to sign up for. ...and so on.
In a lot of these cases I described above the answer to “what’s in it for me?” becomes smaller, and smaller over time. Soloing through an appropriate dungeon may provide some XP, but if you have less gold in the end that you started with then how do you recoup that loss? You have to step the challenge down to make up for the loss. This is especially true when treasure is restricted behind the paywall that is: “Put ranks in Open Lock / Have Rogue levels / have a Faerie familiar”.
So with all that said let’s focus on being clear with what is desired from the community, what our understanding of the rules should be, and make sure things that (truly) unfairly restrict us (read: can’t bash locks) aren’t there.
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Post by sightblinder on Dec 29, 2019 11:50:51 GMT -5
I personally think the server is pretty well balanced and I see no reason to make any changes. Nothing is ever perfect, but FRC does a good job as is.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 11:56:42 GMT -5
If some players want to kill 100 1XP goblins to gain 100 XP per gaming hour, while also risking being noticed by a DM who could issue a warning or a ban, those players won't last long. Sooner or later they would be caught or realize they are wasting their time. Edit: A real problem are some of the older low or mid level dungeons that still have the more generous loot tables in place. Convert those to new loot and most players won't bother with them after certain stage.
Here's a simple solution. How about actually stating the rule somewhere? Is there a list of level restrictions per dungeon? To me, it is not helpful for individual DMs to go around giving warnings based on their own personal opinion of what is or is not 'challenging' for a certain character or group. It is even less useful for players to go on the forum bloviating about it. If a DM were to ever give me such a warning, my first response would be 'ok thank you, can you please tell me the level restriction of this area so I will know in the future?' My next question would be to ask if this area is intended to be level restricted, why is it not enforced in a similar manner as the low level dungeons in Greatgaunt? It is a simple quick thing to do. Why does there have to be such forum drama when there is such a simple solution available? Why can't someone just clearly state what this so called 'rule' is that they are are accusing people of violating? Is it 1xp? Should it be called the '1xp' rule? If you get 1xp then it is too easy? Someone make a clear statement about it please. Someone with the authority to make such a declaration.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 12:24:20 GMT -5
If some players want to kill 100 1XP goblins to gain 100 XP per gaming hour, while also risking being noticed by a DM who could issue a warning or a ban, those players won't last long. Sooner or later they would be caught or realize they are wasting their time. Edit: A real problem are some of the older low or mid level dungeons that still have the more generous loot tables in place. Convert those to new loot and most players won't bother with them after certain stage.
Here's a simple solution. How about actually stating the rule somewhere? Is there a list of level restrictions per dungeon? To me, it is not helpful for individual DMs to go around giving warnings based on their own personal opinion of what is or is not 'challenging' for a certain character or group. It is even less useful for players to go on the forum bloviating about it. If a DM were to ever give me such a warning, my first response would be 'ok thank you, can you please tell me the level restriction of this area so I will know in the future?' My next question would be to ask if this area is intended to be level restricted, why is it not enforced in a similar manner as the low level dungeons in Greatgaunt? It is a simple quick thing to do. Why does there have to be such forum drama when there is such a simple solution available? Why can't someone just clearly state what this so called 'rule' is that they are are accusing people of violating? Is it 1xp? Should it be called the '1xp' rule? If you get 1xp then it is too easy? Someone make a clear statement about it please. Someone with the authority to make such a declaration.
Where is the forum drama in this thread?
Sure, it has had a few missunderstandings perhaps, but as far as I can see, the discussion has been kept civil and in a polite tone
As it has been mentioned before, it is clear to both the player(s) and DM(s) when an area is no longer a challenge. OOC indications or level caps in dungeons out of GG are considered immersion breaking and in a way, empower the RP-Lite monster we are trying to slay.
The dungeons in GG are made that way because new characters need a safe environment where they can adventure without being displaced and outclassed by more experienced ones. They in most cases, cannot adventure anywhere else in the module at this time.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 14:17:48 GMT -5
Yes there is drama. People like you are throwing around terms like 'banning' and there isn't even a clear rule here. Sorry you are wrong, not ALL players agree on what the level restriction should be for each dungeon. It is extremely subjective based on party size and composition, and even character class for soloing. Even player skill level is a factor. If such a hard limit exists, it should be made clear to all.
And there is nothing immersion breaking about placing a level limit on the orc lair entrance outside the Greatgaunt gate. Certainly no more immersion breaking than a DM showing up to warn people. The argument about the dungeons inside the wall doesn't fly. I'm sure you would want the well and the orc lair limited just as much as the inn cellar or the elven ruins. If it can be done for some then it can be done for all.
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Post by NHmikey on Dec 29, 2019 16:05:24 GMT -5
You should really relax. Like it or not, the DM Team, and not any individual DM, can ban players for a variety of reasons/rules infractions. The rule in question is subjective, has always been subjective, and will likely always be subjective, as several other rules are. Deal with it. If the server wanted hard level restrictions on dungeons they would probably already be there since the server is so old. As has been said, generally, players and DM's can tell when the spirit of rule is being broken. There is also a process that takes place so I am certain that no DM is abusing the power of the ban hammer. Banning isn't instantaneous either. Players get the opportunity to explain their actions, there are warnings that are given, and punishment, when warranted, is usually progressive. Yes there is drama. People like you are throwing around terms like 'banning' and there isn't even a clear rule here. Sorry you are wrong, not ALL players agree on what the level restriction should be for each dungeon. It is extremely subjective based on party size and composition, and even character class for soloing. Even player skill level is a factor. If such a hard limit exists, it should be made clear to all. And there is nothing immersion breaking about placing a level limit on the orc lair entrance outside the Greatgaunt gate. Certainly no more immersion breaking than a DM showing up to warn people. The argument about the dungeons inside the wall doesn't fly. I'm sure you would want the well and the orc lair limited just as much as the inn cellar or the elven ruins. If it can be done for some then it can be done for all.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 16:21:11 GMT -5
The vagueness of the rule isn't a bad thing. It puts the ball in the players court on what is and is not exploiting a dungeon that is simply too easy for them. This is because they know what it's like to be a player, and they know that not all PCs are created equal (mechanically wise).
Adrian the archer is level 10. With his setup (Feats, skills, equipment), he still runs a high risk of death running through an area like the warrens alone, with no backup or without relying in gold-eating potions. (And even with tons of backup, as I witnessed a few days ago.)
Lorren the shield based fighter at level 10 was a bit luckier. I took her out of that dungeon because I soloed her around that level, using perhaps one or two CSWs to top off after shamans or before the BBEG.
According to the language in the farming rule, there is no level restriction, simply a guideline for perceived difficulty that players are expected to abide by. We're going off an honor system, by and large, and it seems to be working fine.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 17:06:30 GMT -5
You should really relax. Like it or not, the DM Team, and not any individual DM, can ban players for a variety of reasons/rules infractions. The rule in question is subjective, has always been subjective, and will likely always be subjective, as several other rules are. Deal with it. If the server wanted hard level restrictions on dungeons they would probably already be there since the server is so old. As has been said, generally, players and DM's can tell when the spirit of rule is being broken. There is also a process that takes place so I am certain that no DM is abusing the power of the ban hammer. Banning isn't instantaneous either. Players get the opportunity to explain their actions, there are warnings that are given, and punishment, when warranted, is usually progressive. Yes there is drama. People like you are throwing around terms like 'banning' and there isn't even a clear rule here. Sorry you are wrong, not ALL players agree on what the level restriction should be for each dungeon. It is extremely subjective based on party size and composition, and even character class for soloing. Even player skill level is a factor. If such a hard limit exists, it should be made clear to all. And there is nothing immersion breaking about placing a level limit on the orc lair entrance outside the Greatgaunt gate. Certainly no more immersion breaking than a DM showing up to warn people. The argument about the dungeons inside the wall doesn't fly. I'm sure you would want the well and the orc lair limited just as much as the inn cellar or the elven ruins. If it can be done for some then it can be done for all. Are you even able to point to where this 'rule' is documented?
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