RDD Application only

[EDM Entori]

I just noticed some other people think the same and have voiced this, I would like to add this as a poll.

I think there is a lot to know about this prestige class and folks take it too lightly, not to mention it becomes highly powerful.

I modified the poll to add a few different choices. But I see this class poorly rped, and i'd like dm's to aid in raising the bar.

[soulfien]

I think all PRC's should be application only. I saw this on my first server and it worked out wonderfully.

PRC's are like specialized training. Like Assassin... those skills aren't taught to just anyone nor are they simply picked up by simple study.

[Spirit of a Phoenix]

I voted yes, but I personally don't think it should be just prestige classes.

[ancientempathy]

What in the world does, "To avoid DM Loading", mean?

[EDM Entori]

Jan 21, 2010 20:09:25 GMT -5 @ancientempathy said:

What in the world does, "To avoid DM Loading", mean?

pilot talk... sorry, Over loading is being over weight or being under too many G's.. overloading means *SNAP!* go the wings...

DM' over loading means *SNAP!* goes URGHs brain

[jensmann]

i did vote no, more cause if it is dm application only you need to have a DM who actually knows about your cha a bit.

This isn't such a big problem, but heck i can remember it a bit back as i started, i had rarely seen any DM online and even less a chance to interact with them. it does have improved a lot since then, a big thumbs up to ya all.

just my two cents on it.

[ConcreteSequential]

This is an opinion so take it as such.

I'm not in favor of applications at all really. First off, it's a game we play to relax and get away from reality, the last thing I want to do is fill out an application to play a game. If I want to buy a house, get into a grad program, get a job, fine, but not to play a game.

Has anyone really considered the pain in the arse this could be for the team? Aside from sorting through the apps, and watching applicants, *instead of providing plots and fun stuff for all of you that keep asking for it*, the team can now look forward to the wonderful task of explaining to player X why they aren't good enough to take their chosen class. Afterwords, they can cheerfully put up with being accused of elitism, favoritism, and just general crap whenever they say no.

Personally, I think this is one of those things that tends to pop up every so often sort of like the power gamer threads. In the case of the few players who truly are causing problems, in the end, they either fall into line with the rest of the server, or end up elsewhere.

We've seen it over and over, if someone is truly a problem, let the team know, and they'll take care of it. Honestly, how many people here, who toss out the occasional passive agressive PG'r comments have been accused of being power gamers and worse in the past, but are still here because the team gave them a chance and the players helped them out?

Suddenly, for whatever reason, there's an increased number of a certain class, race, etc followed closely by "they aren't playing it properly, or "playing it as it should be played" ... Well, you get the idea. Then over the next time period, the pendulum swings back where it belongs, and things are back to as normal as they'll ever be.

I think the swing propagated somewhat faster than usual due to the absence of a password, and putting one back when things are fixed will probably moderate the effect.

JMO, thanks.

[ancientempathy]

I dont nessecarily agree with ConcreteSequential because I try not to take applications to heart that much. When I was a DM on here, the applications for Blackguard were low, so its not exactly a lot of work, and its not exactly hard work either.

I dont think an application needs to be anything extravagent either and I believe those on the DM team would be more than willing to point out faults in the app and help the player along to make it more acceptable. That's an unmentioned role as a DM I feel, aiding other players become more savy on roleplay and information.

Some people aren't comfortable calling out another players' roleplay if they deem it bad, to a DM. If they already took the PRC and if another complains they are doing a bad job, then just how exactly is a DM going to handle that 'problem roleplayer'? "So and so whined you stink as a DD - how do we we fix this?"

A DM could still aid the player I suppose but the damage is done.

An application would already filter those awkward instances and already give the PRC in question an air of respect and quality. Right now FRC has a lot of DD's on it - we are at a point where its quantity over quality - and an application would help secure quality more. Otherwise, why don't we get rid of our Blackguard application scheme? We don't do that because we want our Blackguards to be evil. Well, I'd like our dragon disciples to start acting like disciples.

I dont believe all PRC's should be application though. To the extent of which is probably...2.

[iangallowglas]

I voted no. I really don't like the idea of prestige classes being application only. I don't even like that Blackgaurd is application only. I would rather see a class banned than be application only, that's how strong I feel about it.

As far as RDDs and how they are played...... How about we just give it a break. You play your RDD the way you want to, and I'll play mine the way I want to.
(Yes, I'm tired of this conversation coming up over and over).

[ancientempathy]

Another thing I didn't comment on which I won't bother nitpicking too much is just the level of power martial spellcasters get when combining with the dragon disciple class.

[ConcreteSequential]

Jan 21, 2010 20:53:35 GMT -5 @ancientempathy said:

I dont nessecarily agree with ConcreteSequential because I try not to take applications to heart that much. When I was a DM on here, the applications for Blackguard were low, so its not exactly a lot of work, and its not exactly hard work either.

I dont think an application needs to be anything extravagent either and I believe those on the DM team would be more than willing to point out faults in the app and help the player along to make it more acceptable. That's an unmentioned role as a DM I feel, aiding other players become more savy on roleplay and information.

Some people aren't comfortable calling out another players' roleplay if they deem it bad, to a DM. If they already took the PRC and if another complains they are doing a bad job, then ? "So and so whined you stink as a DD - how do we we fix this?"

A DM could still aid the player I suppose but the damage is done.

An application would already filter those awkward instances and already give the PRC in question an air of respect and quality. Right now FRC has a lot of DD's on it - we are at a point where its quantity over quality - and an application would help secure quality more. Otherwise, why don't we get rid of our Blackguard application scheme? We don't do that because we want our Blackguards to be evil. Well, I'd like our dragon disciples to start acting like disciples.

I dont believe all PRC's should be application though. To the extent of which is probably...2.

It's okay AE, people are allowed to disagree.

just how exactly is a DM going to handle that 'problem roleplayer

If it's a rule breaking problem, that seems pretty straight forward.
Is there truly a persistant problem with large numbers of players, other than that? *honest question*

Your thoughts on applications and the crew guiding folks in their RP to aid their app approval is pretty much how things have been handled without apps by both the crew and the community as long as I've been here. How does the extra work make it better?
*other than appeasing players who have the perception that someone isn't doing it the way they would, right or wrong.*

[ancientempathy]

I'll leave this hanging in an air of suspense to the audience, as I address you in a PM ;D

[ancientempathy]

I sent that PM Concrete, and the only thing I neglected to mention in nitpicky detail was the level of power that martial spellcasters get if they take the PRC.

To coincide with my general line of thought...Its bad enough when something is rather overpowering...Even more so when its power in the hands of someone who doesn't comprehend the novelty value of what they are

I think that is one of the leading complaints some people generally have about the DD PRC not being an application

[Charon's Claw]

I am relatively indifferent to the subject. All that I ask is people research the class before they play it. This goes with any class really though. An RDD isn't something that one can grow into without their consent, that's why there is lore required for the class, to study the ritual to begin the process.

I think it was said somewhere that an RDD can no more happen by accident as someone accidentally becoming a trained wizard or fighter. That's just part of the class though, and one of my pet peeves if people play it as they're mutating beyond their control.

Applications may aid against this, but I can see how some people may cry favoritism and crap like Concrete said, though I agree if we do application the class then ALL prestige classes should be set to an application.

[The Supreme Watcher]

I voted All PRCs for several reasons. Going to put down thoughts on all of them.

Red Dragon Disciple - Most often played as a fighter with scales and a bard level, sometimes played as a character who just "woke up with scales!" Both are... mind-numbingly awful. This should be an application only class due to the years of research and experimentation required to actually change your base race (after all, a Monk has to train to twenty to do so).

Dwarven Defender - They should be more than stupid drunken dwarves who like to fight and belch and kill orcs.

PDK - Only have one. He does a good job. Cheers.

Harper Scout - We don't have any. Thanks, metagamers!

Arcane Archer - Much more than an archer with magical arrows, they are a font of ancient elven discipline, a secret, hidden art. This should be application only simply due to the nature of the class - it's taught.

Blackguard - If you don't do it evil, you can't do it at all. Huggles evil need not apply.

Plae master - Becoming undead through your own devices and research? Oooh, that's creepy. This, to me, is like an undead RDD - the fruit of years of research and experimentation to make someone something they aren't.

Shadowdancer - Not allowed!

Shifter - Not allowed!

Weapon Master - This is the PrC I have the most experience with. It's a depressing class to take. Clerics try to push you around, wizards try to push you around, and non-WM fighters don't take you seriously. If there is one class I'd like to see be application only, it's this one, because it's more than a bigger crit rate and harder hitting crit - it's a lifestyle. To be honest, I'm tired of Eastern style characters coming in and using it for Samurai - there are better analogs to the Samurai class (Fighter/Ranger/PDK with high intimidate, for instance).

Assassin - This one is my favorite class in PnP. I don't think it's applicable for FRC's player-on-player combat, really, and as such I think it is crippled as a class role play wise. An application should be used on this class to distinguish between the people who want to be an assassin for the death attack, or because they really love the class, and are willing to work with the handicap. Furthermore, a mentor should be assigned, and the requirement of murdering someone for no reason but to become an assassin should be instated.

Champion of Torm (Divine Champion) - This one is difficult. There is no one way to play a Divine Champion, and as such, it is a very good candidate for DM supervision. I can see no reason a deity would -not- fell someone for violating their code of ethics as a Champion.


And there you have it. A rant, maybe. My feelings, yes.

If you feel picked on or insulted in this post, it was intentional - I used FRC examples on each of the ones I could think of them on.

[Thrym]

No.

I know a lot of people here think RDDs are special or something, but uhm... no?

Frankly, I don't get the big deal that is made about this class here on FRC. I mean, seriously, RDD gives you:

- Strength Boost: Attack Bonus wise, the +8 str exactly compensates for the 4 points of BAB you at the very least loose entering the class instead of staying a pure warrior. You also get +4 damage. Nice, but not exactly overpowered. Well, it's +6 with a two handed weapon, but frankly, if you use a two handed weapon in NWN, you deserve every boost you get. Oh, and on FRC you need to wait untill level 19 to get the last +4 bonus, so basically you're running around with worse Attack Bonus and slightly better damage then a fighter for most of your career. Did I mention you loose your fourth attack if you take anything worse BAB-wise then Full-BAB 8/Sorc 2 or Full-BAB 6/Bard 4? The only abuse potential I can see here is with Devastating Critical. But... that's banned on FRC anyways.

- Con Boost/HD increase: Fancy, but this only really kicks in very, very late. For most of your career, you actually have less hp then other warrior chars.

- Other stats boost: Fluff! You're a warrior, getting +2 int and cha won't exactly make you better at it in NWN.

- Firebreath: So... you get a free firebomb each day. Congratulations?

- Wings: Fluff ability in NWN unless a DM lets you use them. Then your level 18+ character just saved 700 gold because didn't have to drink a polymorph potion.

- Fire Immunity: Situational Ability. Fire is a common damage type, no doubt, but... you get it at level 19. By level 19, I can think of ... two places on FRC where Fire Immunity is all that much better then some minor resistance to it. Well, I guess you can abuse epic fire traps.

- Draconic Armor: This one is actually nice. Free AC!

- Good Willsave: Not actually a classfeature, but always nice to have. But it's made meaningless pretty much all the time because you are obviously using protection from evil anyways.


So, all in all, most of the time, you have +4 AC and +4 Damage over a single classed fighter 20. That's if you enter with fighter of course. If you enter with another full BAB class, you instead have +1 AC (no heavy armor) and +2 damage (no Specialization) over the Fighter 20. You also ran around being weaker then a pure fighter for most of those 20 levels, so I think you deserve this.

Seriously, can someone explain to me how a RDD is 'overpowered' on FRC? Yes, it's a strong class without doubt, and yes, a well made RDD is a tiny little bit stronger then a wellmade single-classed fighter. Clerics still laugh about both. Seriously, the cleric can get everything the RDD gets, all day long, and still has a few dozen spell-slots left. Seriously, two magic vestments give you +4 AC over the RDD's +3 equipment, elemental resistance is just as good as immunity most of the time, and divine favour actually adds more attack and damage then +8 str. And then you add all your other spells.

Maybe RDD is über on other servers, but this is FRC, where you need to get to level 19 to get the big boost at all, and where Devastating Critical which is the only strength based saving throw I can think of is banned. You also have at best +3 items, making you fall further behind clerics.


And before someone starts ranting about how you need to 'RP it correctly', I will just say one thing to this:

Playing a cleric or wizard 'correctly' requires at least as much RP then any RDD.

Seriously, just no. We don't need applications for RDDs. They're neither super-mega-overpowered nor any harder to RP then some base-classes. Or does someone seriously want to tell me RPing 'has dragonblood and is willingly undergoing changes into something more dragon-like' is any harder to RP then being a cleric?

Mind you: I know some people take RPing an RDD really seriously and get pissed off about people not putting as much effort into it as they do. But you know, that's the same for other classes too. I'm sure many cleric players think other cleric players should 'put more effort into it', too.

All this does is creating work for the DM team for no tangible reason. If we make RDD application only, I vote we extend that to clerics, because they are both more powerful warriors and harder to RP correctly!

[Charon's Claw]

Don't forget paralysis immunity.

But that's why I said before one plays this class one should do research, but I also stated that goes for any class.

[Thrym]

Jan 21, 2010 22:21:22 GMT -5 Charon's Claw said:

Don't forget paralysis immunity.

But that's why I said before one plays this class one should do research, but I also stated that goes for any class.

Pffft, paralysis immunity! How often do you get paralysed by something that's not blocked by Protection from Evil?

Honestly, I think RDD really looks a lot stronger then it is. You see +8 STR and go 'Woah!' but... it's really not that big a deal once you consider the BAB loss or just compare yourself to a cleric of your level.

[Munroe]

I do think RDDs should be application-only, but not because the class is overpowered, but because we have too many of them.

You know what I think is prestigious? A sorcerer without RDD levels. They're the rarer animal.

Concerning other classes, I'd love to see CoT capped at 5 levels. Divine Champion is only a 5 level class in D&D and it is unbalancing when extended to 10 levels and beyond because it has all the benefits of fighter except weapon specialization feats plus gets a bonus to all saves every other level and Lay on Hands (which gets stronger with each additional CoT level). That's fine for five levels, as it amounts to two +1 increases to saves, but taking that up above five levels gets silly.

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

If it were up to me they simply wouldn't be allowed at all. So I am leaning toward DM approval only.

[Charon's Claw]

Jan 21, 2010 22:03:18 GMT -5 Thrym said:

Playing a cleric or wizard 'correctly' requires at least as much RP then any RDD.

Out of all that you said, this is pretty much the only thing that stuck out that I bothered to take to heart.

Personally I don't care if anyone makes the most crazy powerbuild in the history of all powerbuilds using any class. As long as they make an honest effort to stick to their class roleplay, the history of their character, and just do this little thing we call roleplay in general. I am content.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2010 22:03:18 GMT -5 Thrym said:

So, all in all, most of the time, you have +4 AC and +4 Damage over a single classed fighter 20. That's if you enter with fighter of course.

You could have less ab penalty (and thus more ab than a pure fighter) if you waited until epic to take some (or all) RDD, but then you are waiting even longer to get the best RDD benefits. And that could take years on FRC.

I think you are also undervaluing the advantage of +4 ac, but it's certainly not game breaking. Pale master & dwarven defender (and even weapon master & champion of torm in some cases or AA if it was not capped) are "more powerful" prc's than RDD for many situations.

However, I really don't think power is the issue here. It just feels strange if every fifth warrior or gish on a server is half-lizard. The same would be true for pm if it were more popular, but less visually striking classes WM, CoT, DD just fit into the world easier. Everyone should rp their prc's of course ... but you don't have to rp those classes in a strikingly different way than "typical" adventurers. Or deal with NPC's thinking you are a monster because of your bone arm/flaming breath/huge wings/etc.

I am against applications personally ... I'd rather see a quota to remove any accusations of bias. It'd be very simple: once there are X active people in a particular PRC that is supposed to be rare and exotic, then no one else is allowed until someone goes inactive.

[soulfien]

thrym, it is not about if it is overpowered or not.

It is about every tom dick and harry having parents or grandparents who have all had sex with dragons.

Dragons, especially evil ones, are not plentiful enough to go about having sex with countless members of the "lesser races". Dragons are solitary beings who prefer privacy. Frankly I cannot imagine seeing ANY RDD's outside of the Cult of the Dragon. Good luck being a descendant and escaping them to become a good aligned RDD.

Metallic ones? Well, I don't see them breeding half-dragons and DD's at the drop of a hat either. I just don't see it.

I think RDD should be extremely rare.

[soulfien]

Jan 21, 2010 22:31:41 GMT -5 Munroe said:

You know what I think is prestigious? A sorcerer without RDD levels. They're the rarer animal.

Couldn't it be possible for two archwizards to produce a sorcerer? Say like the magical energies they used on a daily basis just kind of sank in over time?

Or is a sorcerer explicitly due to cossbreeding with strange fairies and dragons?

[Charon's Claw]

Keep in mind that RDDs are not truly half dragon. They have the faint glimmering of dragon herritage in their blood that allows them to cast their magics. That's why sorcerers and bards qualify. Granted sorcerous and bardic magics can come from djinn herritage, genie, efreet, fey, ect.

Also keep in mind that adventurers are a rarity, not the norm. Even if we have 10 RDD PCs, what's the population of Cormyr?

[longearmage]

Jan 21, 2010 21:39:33 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

PDK - Only have one. He does a good job. Cheers.

*blushes* Aw, shucks.

[blessedcurse]

Actually a maxed out F9/Bard1/RDD10 and a maxed out F13/WM 7 in NWN wielding a greataxe without any magic involved do the same average damage per 20 hits.

(20 hits based on each number of the d20, with a non crit number counting as average damage and a number that would be a crit counting as the average damage value times the crit multliplier. This ignores that 1 always misses but in this case since the average damage of the RDD is higher this would favor the weaponmaster if that was taking into consideration).

In addition the higher crit modifier on the Weaponmaster means that magical strength boosting gear will increase their maximum crit more than the RDD, so in effect the more magic you add the more superior the WM gets.

The only real advantages a RDD gets over a F/weaponmaster is the +4 natural armor bonus which on a high magic world is not so big a deal because its basically just like having an extra body slot and its immunities. Which also in many high magic worlds these immunities are like having a spare body slot.

And straight on about the BAB to level 20 if you go full on RDD 10, the most magic capable build you can manage is a f9/sorc1/RDD10 OR a F6/Bard4/RDD10. Otherwise you drop one attack from the routine, which granted is not a high chance to hit against really tough opponents, but with buffs, etc. at times this spare hit comes into play. Or when an opponent is at a disadvantage to AC such as knocked down, etc.

On FRC it seems the magic is more in the middle range so it maybe that the +4 natural armor bonus and the immunities are quite a bit more powerful. In PnP this armor bonus is somewhat offset by the added difficulty of a winged RDD to find armor that will fit them (meaning they may have to use suboptimal magic items that they can figure out how to have modified to fit their wings) and the difficulty in flying in anything greater than medium armor.

I would say this, instead of an application to judge whether someone is able to roleplay the class in some predetermined manner, make the player prove through the character in the prior 10 levels that they will do the IC research (either by forum or IG with the aid of a DM) to spark the transformation.

The same thing can be said with Pale Master. And in fact I believe players wanting to play these classes would enjoy the process of becoming one through working the research and flavor.

As for the idea of applications and 'class roleplay':
Really unless a sourcebook specifies a certain behavior for a character (pallys, clerics, monks, druids, to a lesser degree rangers to keep their divine spells), there is no one way.

A dwarven fighter/barbarian could be a battlerager or they could just be a slobbering dwarf who was raised in the wilds by a band of slobbering dwarves.

A ranger/rogue could be more of a sniper/scout than warrior, or a straight rogue for that matter with their skill points spent towards hide/ms/listen/spot/set traps rather than PP and OL could be more of a scout than thief.

I could play a sorceror whose spells are focused on invisibility, knock, etc. and has heavily cross classed, taken feats to support and acquired gear to allow them to move silently better, who thinks of themself more as a thief.

The same applies to prestige classes unless some sort of behavior is specified. A weaponmaster could be the pinnacle of a kensai or samurai, or swashbuckler/duelist or even the substitute prestige class of an elven bladesinger. Or a bladesinger could be a divine champ/mixed with bard. Be open to new interpretations of what -should- be and I promise you will be surprised.

Applications are generally bad, people begin building characters that will get accepted easily rather than letting the character development go where it might. Expediency in processing gives way to genericness and blandness.

If there is a problem, solve it when it happens, don't bog down a whole server for ever prestige class applications when you don't have to.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2010 23:26:25 GMT -5 Charon's Claw said:

Keep in mind that RDDs are not truly half dragon. They have the faint glimmering of dragon herritage in their blood that allows them to cast their magics. That's why sorcerers and bards qualify. Granted sorcerous and bardic magics can come from djinn herritage, genie, efreet, fey, ect.

Also keep in mind that adventurers are a rarity, not the norm. Even if we have 10 RDD PCs, what's the population of Cormyr?

Good point on them not being half-dragons, but the basic is idea is that they look strange and exotic ... and possibly fear inspiring. Most other PrC's don't.

And while adventurers are definitely not representative of the general population, I would think that the ratio of adventurers to rdd adventurers is pretty high on FRC compared to the "average faerunian adventurer population".

[Charon's Claw]

Yeah.. I know they look monsterous, hehe. Probably should have said that, but a lot of people think they're like direct spawn of dragons, when in fact the dragon ancestor is often hundreds to thousands of years in the past.

[Charon's Claw]

For Reference:

frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=prclore&action=display&thread=7715

frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=prclore&action=display&thread=8021&page=1

Oct 10, 2008 17:41:00 GMT -5 Munroe said:

The creature on the left is a half-black dragon from the Monster Manual.
(The winged creature on the right is a half-fiend.)


This is the image of the Dragon Disciple from the Dungeon Master's Guide:


If you look at his fingers and toes, they definitely don't look normal, but he looks nothing like the dragon-headed fellow above.