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Post by kaltorac on Jan 22, 2010 15:38:49 GMT -5
I voted yes to have DM approval for all PRCs.
On my own server we require this already. It's not a big burden actually. We've only denied a single application to date as well. In most cases, the DM Team takes a week to decide on a request. If no one has a sound arguement for denial, then it's approved. Our only denial to date was for a PM applicant that simply had never RP'd any leanings in that direction. A DM should be able to "guess" a PCs course after watching them briefly afterall. Someone wanting to become an RDD should consistantly RP a fascination with wyrms and their bloodlines, engage openly known RDDs for insight and any other number of things.
I also believe that applications needn't be long. Just a quick listing of a players IG login, their forum login and the name of the PC and the class they're requesting should be enough. Then failing a good reason "why not", the applications should be approved. Just my view on this though.
I think RDDs should also have a minimum number of levels in an innate arcane class too. The current requirement of a level of bard or sorceror only cheapens the class and it's prestige and makes it a pure powerbuild IMO.
Lastly, and especially moreso since the recent dracorage has occured. I think there should be a negative stigma attached to RDDs in general. I have no qualms about the number of RDDs IG. I do think that folk walking about with their wings showing constantly are absurd though. I would think the common folk would see them as a threat and town guards would take actions to keep them away. So it's the constant public flaunting of wings that gets on my nerves. I applaude those that have gone out of their way to hide their wings over the years here as well. The same applies to PMs and their boney arms. Hide it and I'm fine with it. Wave it in everyones face and the populace should be rising up with torches to drive the "lich" from their town and I'd expect most adventurers to join them.
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Post by easternenterprise on Jan 22, 2010 15:44:22 GMT -5
I voted yes to have DM approval for all PRCs. On my own server we require this already. It's not a big burden actually. We've only denied a single application to date as well. In most cases, the DM Team takes a week to decide on a request. If no one has a sound arguement for denial, then it's approved. Our only denial to date was for a PM applicant that simply had never RP'd any leanings in that direction. A DM should be able to "guess" a PCs course after watching them briefly afterall. Someone wanting to become an RDD should consistantly RP a fascination with wyrms and their bloodlines, engage openly known RDDs for insight and any other number of things. I also believe that applications needn't be long. Just a quick listing of a players IG login, their forum login and the name of the PC and the class they're requesting should be enough. Then failing a good reason "why not", the applications should be approved. Just my view on this though. I think RDDs should also have a minimum number of levels in an innate arcane class too. The current requirement of a level of bard or sorceror only cheapens the class and it's prestige and makes it a pure powerbuild IMO. Lastly, and especially moreso since the recent dracorage has occured. I think there should be a negative stigma attached to RDDs in general. I have no qualms about the number of RDDs IG. I do think that folk walking about with their wings showing constantly are absurd though. I would think the common folk would see them as a threat and town guards would take actions to keep them away. So it's the constant public flaunting of wings that gets on my nerves. I applaude those that have gone out of their way to hide their wings over the years here as well. The same applies to PMs and their boney arms. Hide it and I'm fine with it. Wave it in everyones face and the populace should be rising up with torches to drive the "lich" from their town and I'd expect most adventurers to join them. Well that's easy to pin, since I only know of one dragon disciple that shows their wings frequently. You should consider getting to try and know my character and why she does what she does, if you can. The Dracorage has been taken into consideration, as well as a slew of other stuff you may not ever dream of ;D Any other issues though, you can take it up with me in a PM - Cheers |
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Post by ashaffer on Jan 22, 2010 15:59:37 GMT -5
I voted no... Why try to fix something that isn't broken? The few who the DMs see abusing a PrC should be taken aside for a talking to, and not be allowed to ruin it for everyone else. That happens far too often, and simply isn't fair to those who are not doing anything wrong.
The only thing I'd like to see is ALL PrCs capped at 10th level. If one is, then the rest should be as well. |
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Post by The Flying Ve on Jan 22, 2010 21:38:21 GMT -5
There are very good reasons to cap arcane archer at level 10 on a low magic server. Anywho, about RDDs: I don't mind the wings. I don't mind the scales. I don't mind the number of them in a sense that it actually disturbs me.(amuses, sometimes, though, when I consider a fighter/barb is more powerful if built right  ) What I do mind is those who have taken significant levels in the class and never emote such in their appearance. I have a problem reacting accordingly since using a class info is technically metagaming, but a level 6+ RDD should show visible signs of draconic heritage. It isn't emoted, it isn't in the description so...my character can't react as he or she usually would(which in itself is a wide range. I have everything from dragon haters to dragon lovers in my palette). Of course, folks are free to emote as they like, but I would at least ask for the occasional hint to such changes in appearence. Quickslot it, put it in a forum post or whatever, but please (pretty please!  )let me know what my character is actually looking at. |
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Post by Charon's Claw on Jan 22, 2010 21:44:37 GMT -5
*grunts in agreement with Ve Das*
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Post by Munroe on Jan 22, 2010 21:48:03 GMT -5
It's my personal view that a WM's dedication to his weapon would almost rival the dedication of a monk. This is a misconception of the class. Weapon Masters DO NOT dedicate themselves to a single weapon. They dedicate themselves to the study of a single weapon TYPE. A weapon master with mastery of the longsword can brandish any longsword as a master. On FRC many of our weapon masters (and I say "many" loosely since I can think of three) have dedicated themselves to a single named weapon, but this is not necessary and has been done more in keeping with an eastern flavor that has been overlaid on the class. Weapon Master does not require dedication to a single blade, ancestral or otherwise. It requires dedication to the study of a single weapon type. "May I present Master Jinn. he will be your instructor in the use of the sabre." "Eventually you'll be able to craft your on sabre, my apprentice, but these skills may be applied to any." What irks me a lot more is people RPing an "assassin" without taking a single level in the class. Yeah, I'm going to disagree with this one. Assassin class grants a skillset targeted toward assassination, but it is not the only means to gain a skillset that could allow someone to fulfill the role of an assassin. A rogue, wizard, or fighter could also do assassination work with no formal training an an assassin class, as could most other classes. They wouldn't be able to do it quite the same way an assassin would because of the different skillset, but they could still do the work. Not every Harper has Harper Scout levels. Not every guild thief has Guild Thief levels. Not every assassin has assassin levels. If you can do the job without the levels, the levels are not required. In the case of assassin, being an assassin is a job that can be filled without having levels in the class. |
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Post by marquardt on Jan 22, 2010 23:29:49 GMT -5
It's my personal view that a WM's dedication to his weapon would almost rival the dedication of a monk. This is a misconception of the class. Weapon Masters DO NOT dedicate themselves to a single weapon. They dedicate themselves to the study of a single weapon TYPE. A weapon master with mastery of the longsword can brandish any longsword as a master. I don't see how this view is contrary to mine. The cornerstone of my viewpoint was not that a weapon master should only be allowed to use one weapon. Acheiving mastery in anything requires an uncommon level of dedication. Anyone who has spent time skill-building in real life will know this. If it did not require an uncommon level of dedication, we would all be masters. This is where my problem lies, because most WM's I've seen with the exception of Kenji play their WM's like fighters who just got reaaaaal good, when in "reality", a WM can do things with a sword that no other fighter can do. |
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Post by The Flying Ve on Jan 22, 2010 23:42:44 GMT -5
What irks me a lot more is people RPing an "assassin" without taking a single level in the class. Yeah, I'm going to disagree with this one. Assassin class grants a skillset targeted toward assassination, but it is not the only means to gain a skillset that could allow someone to fulfill the role of an assassin. A rogue, wizard, or fighter could also do assassination work with no formal training an an assassin class, as could most other classes. They wouldn't be able to do it quite the same way an assassin would because of the different skillset, but they could still do the work. Not every Harper has Harper Scout levels. Not every guild thief has Guild Thief levels. Not every assassin has assassin levels. If you can do the job without the levels, the levels are not required. In the case of assassin, being an assassin is a job that can be filled without having levels in the class. I fully agree actually and perhaps should have been more clear. What I mean is fulfilling the role of exactly that type of hired killer the assassin class portrays without having a single level of it. A wizard fulfilling the dramatic role of an assassin is still using his means as a wizard to do the job, not those specifically of this class. Anyone can be hired to kill anyone, but RPing the class assassin without levels in it bugs me on principle, it doesn't mean I actually mind. I appreciate good RP in general as is, so I likely won't either notice or really care, heh. |
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Post by Munroe on Jan 23, 2010 0:22:28 GMT -5
I don't see how this view is contrary to mine. The cornerstone of my viewpoint was not that a weapon master should only be allowed to use one weapon. Acheiving mastery in anything requires an uncommon level of dedication. Anyone who has spent time skill-building in real life will know this. If it did not require an uncommon level of dedication, we would all be masters. This is where my problem lies, because most WM's I've seen with the exception of Kenji play their WM's like fighters who just got reaaaaal good, when in "reality", a WM can do things with a sword that no other fighter can do. Weapon Master does have Ki as a class feature, so their path of mastery should be quite monk-like. I don't disagree on that point. In fact, by the D&D core rules for weapon master, monks may multi-class as weapon masters freely in spite of the standard core rule restriction on monk multi-classing. |
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Post by TermaForever on Jan 23, 2010 10:16:24 GMT -5
My own two cents worth on the whole original topic (I noticed a weapon master debate but I'm ignoring that for now. My apologies).
I vote "No"
I definitely get Ent's concern and think its valid. But applications are just a pain in the buttocks for DMs to have to look over and review and there are all sorts of complications that can arise in that respect. This is one case where I think it would be easier to just let people take the class they wish to take and if they do a bad job of rping it, cuff them on the back of the head till they get it through their thick skull that being a half dragon requires a little more than "LOLS I HAVE FIRE!!!"
That goes for any class really.
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Post by EDM Neo on Jan 23, 2010 10:49:23 GMT -5
I voted no.
I think JCrux's post summed things up best; instead of disallowing inexperienced people from rolling up characters, it's best to just help teach them how to improve.
Yes, it gets tiresome, but we've all been there... everyone starts with nothing, the rest comes with time and experience.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 11:45:51 GMT -5
The only thing I'd like to see is ALL PrCs capped at 10th level. If one is, then the rest should be as well. I'd rather see AA uncapped & a few monsters changed to have higher DR (to make them seem immune to physical damage). Unless something has 100/+6 DR then there is no real difference between having a +6 arrow and having a plus five arrow with a prayer spell to give +1ab and damage. Lots of other classes can get huge buffs to ab/damage, so I don't see that AA is unbalancing if you take care of the ghosts/etc with damage reduction. |
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Post by 828stingstingneo on Jan 23, 2010 13:01:41 GMT -5
I voted a resounding no. I understand that it's annoying to some people to see someone RP their change as being suddenly, unwillingly taken over by their dragon blood. People should know it's a change their character has to actively pursue, but that is basically said in the handbook Prestige Class description: I don't think any more research than what's provided in the handbook is necessary to RP it decently. Is that really enough to warrant an application process? by application I am thinking of a small quiz that people could probably fill out and post publicly to make sure they know enough about the race. that is my opinion on "application" I wouldn't mind seeing a multiple choice quiz (similar to the one to exit the Border Outpost) section on the forums somewhere to help people who want to try a class or race to learn the basics, but not as an application. It should be an optional learning tool for interested players to use. I know the Lore section contains a lot of this information already, but it might be more digestible in a different format because different people learn best in different ways. It'd certainly be interesting to see what the Powers That Be consider to be important to know before you try to RP something. |
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Post by soulfien on Jan 25, 2010 13:57:39 GMT -5
I don't see why AA is capped at all.
Wizards get +5 weapons and can enchant other people's weapons to +5 and wizards also get a blade (black blade of disaster) which is a +(wizard's intelligence modifier).
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Post by Lady Frost on Jan 25, 2010 14:10:33 GMT -5
I don't see why AA is capped at all. Wizards get +5 weapons and can enchant other people's weapons to +5 and wizards also get a blade (black blade of disaster) which is a +(wizard's intelligence modifier) |
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Post by Charon's Claw on Jan 25, 2010 14:55:00 GMT -5
I don't see why AA is capped at all. Wizards get +5 weapons and can enchant other people's weapons to +5 and wizards also get a blade (black blade of disaster) which is a +(wizard's intelligence modifier). Level 9 AA gets +5 arrows. To give more would be giving basically +6 and an unfair advantage to these archers since their AB would go up double what epic progression goes, and others would not have access to +6 or higher blades. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2010 15:09:56 GMT -5
I don't see why AA is capped at all. Wizards get +5 weapons and can enchant other people's weapons to +5 and wizards also get a blade (black blade of disaster) which is a +(wizard's intelligence modifier). Level 9 AA gets +5 arrows. To give more would be giving basically +6 and an unfair advantage to these archers since their AB would go up double what epic progression goes, and others would not have access to +6 or higher blades. Yes, but having a +6 weapon is only an advantage (over having +5 and +1 ab, +1 damage) if something has +6 damage reduction. And that is completely in the control of the staff: just change those creatures to have +15 or +20 or whatever reduction instead. Given the huge # of spells/abilities that give +ab and +damage I don't find it unbalancing for AA to have further ab/damage bonuses over +5. Particularly given that flame weapon, keen, etc do not work on bows and arrows. Also compare to clerical buffs that can easily give +13 ab and considerable damage bonuses on top of flame weapon. Arcane archers do get very high AB (the highest) with full epic progression, but their damage potential is less than most melee characters & they are not the only class with epic ab bonuses (WM). |
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Post by Lady Frost on Jan 25, 2010 15:29:09 GMT -5
This Arcane Archer point was already argued in the thread I just posted a few posts back. Can we please stop beating a dead horse and stay on topic?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2010 15:56:23 GMT -5
This Arcane Archer point was already argued in the thread I just posted a few posts back. Can we please stop beating a dead horse and stay on topic? Depends which topic you mean. An argument for the AA cap being removed supports not adding a cap for other prestige classes, which seems to be the active thread of the topic atm. I do agree we could have started a new thread about whether prestige classes should be limited or not. |
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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 25, 2010 16:30:32 GMT -5
Level 9 AA gets +5 arrows. To give more would be giving basically +6 and an unfair advantage to these archers since their AB would go up double what epic progression goes, and others would not have access to +6 or higher blades. Yes, but having a +6 weapon is only an advantage (over having +5 and +1 ab, +1 damage) if something has +6 damage reduction. And that is completely in the control of the staff: just change those creatures to have +15 or +20 or whatever reduction instead. Given the huge # of spells/abilities that give +ab and +damage I don't find it unbalancing for AA to have further ab/damage bonuses over +5. Particularly given that flame weapon, keen, etc do not work on bows and arrows. Also compare to clerical buffs that can easily give +13 ab and considerable damage bonuses on top of flame weapon. Arcane archers do get very high AB (the highest) with full epic progression, but their damage potential is less than most melee characters & they are not the only class with epic ab bonuses (WM). what about the players who will never get above 45 AC or +6 to their DR? now i know mages are to qoute todays chat session "over powered" but most mages, won't get an AC of above 40, most fighters will have a hard time too. I speak seriously here that an AA's AB at level 21 on FRC is an definitly not an issue to someone who has 40 AC. especially a mage who relies upon DR. so yeah I vote in favor of the cap, and perhaps reason why All PRC's should be application only. keep in mind a template for an aplication could be: Entori be'te'wa mage. wishing to go AA. start date = ============================================ Keep in mind we're a FULL pvp server |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2010 16:48:52 GMT -5
what about the players who will never get above 45 AC or +6 to their DR? Mage's "normal" dr spells are already bypassed by +5 weapons (whether AA or by gmw spells or scrolls). I am not aware of any player ability that gives bypassable DR over +6, besides epic warding (+20). Epic warding would still work against AA over 10, so there should be no issue at all with pvp DR. WRT to AC, I will definitely agree that not all characters have it equal there. But as you get into higher epic, only the highest AC characters will be dodging attacks from other player characters anyway. If you are going to let PM's have an epic high AC progression, dwarven defender have an epic high damage resistance progression, wm have an epic high AB progression ... then I don't see why AA should be singled out. Besides, if pvp is your worry ... Greater Sanctuary + Timestop or Implosion will still carry the day regardless of AC or AB. Wizards and clerics are still far more powerful than any of the PrC classes. |
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Post by mythosfakir on Jan 25, 2010 17:22:15 GMT -5
*drags thread back on topic* Seriously, I don't think Arcane Archer is spelled "Red Dragon Disciple" Perhaps we can begin a new thread to discuss this PrC rather than dragging this one off course again and again? That aside, my stance on RDD is simply this: no, you don't need an application to play the PrC. However, as a player who favors immersion and realism I have seen only 1 character with any type of DD levels that I found to be more believable than Bugs Bunny, Tom and Jerry, or - for those with interests close to my own - Excel Exel. I'm not saying DDs are rping their class wrong, but from my perspective as a player, it's very difficult to take some of the ones I've had the chance to rp with seriously. I think others echo my sentiments or else this thread wouldn't be here, so I'm in agreement with what has already been said. You shouldn't need to fill out an application to play this PrC, but if you choose to take this path with your character do yourself a favor and do at least a little research so that your character can be taken as seriously as *you* take him or her. Maybe I'm odd or self-conscious, but I know that I wouldn't want any of my characters to be seen as nothing more than "comic relief" by those I choose to rp with (this may still be the case for me, but nobody's said anything yet, so I'll assume it's not. ) This PrC - just like all PrCs has a lot of potential to give your character quite a bit of flavor and uniqueness, but I don't think any player who picks a PrC without having at least looked into it a little first will ever get anything from a PrC other than stat increases, feats, and skills. And, honestly, I like to think that the players on this server for the most part value rp more than those things - we're all just a tad lazy sometimes. That being said, I voted in favor of an application for this class because I'm tired of kicking myself for seeing them as "a dime a dozen" addition to the server. Since I voted, though, I've talked to some others and come to realize that an application probably won't fix that anyway. Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. I won't voice my opinion on any other specific PrC here, but if anyone would like to discuss those I'd be more than happy to toss my die in on those threads as well should they get started. |
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Post by iangallowglas on Jan 25, 2010 17:53:27 GMT -5
People, focus on our own RP and please stop bashing the players of RDD's. We don't have t play our characters to meet your RP expectations. And no two RDDs need to have the same or even similiar style characters. I'm sure I could find flaws and things I dislike about just about everyone's character that has posted how the players of RDD's are crappy RPer's, but I have the tact not too.
I think this thread needs to be locked.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2010 17:53:30 GMT -5
*drags thread back on topic* Seriously, I don't think Arcane Archer is spelled "Red Dragon Disciple" Perhaps we can begin a new thread to discuss this PrC rather than dragging this one off course again and again? Cause no one had commented on the application for days, but that lead into other ways to limit RDD and other prc's. Since the original part seemed settled, it was only natural that discussion flowed on to the next debate ... Still it would be better to start a new thread & I replied inline mostly cause I was too lazy to cut and paste comments and make another thread. My laziness has been thrashed into submission for the moment: new thread here. That aside, my stance on RDD is simply this: no, you don't need an application to play the PrC. However, as a player who favors immersion and realism I have seen only 1 character with any type of DD levels that I found to be more believable than Bugs Bunny, Tom and Jerry, or - for those with interests close to my own - Excel Exel. I'm not saying DDs are rping their class wrong, but from my perspective as a player, it's very difficult to take some of the ones I've had the chance to rp with seriously. I don't think it's that hard to rp xDD (DD is dwarven defender!) well. Excel Exel is a good model for a wis challenged xDD, but probably should be rare ... That being said, I voted in favor of an application for this class because I'm tired of kicking myself for seeing them as "a dime a dozen" addition to the server. Since I voted, though, I've talked to some others and come to realize that an application probably won't fix that anyway. Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. I won't voice my opinion on any other specific PrC here, but if anyone would like to discuss those I'd be more than happy to toss my die in on those threads as well should they get started. Agreed. I still prefer a quota and attempts to improve rp if the staff (not random players) think someone needs it. I think the quota better satisfies the need for "rarity" and improving is always better than excluding IMO. |
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Post by Aodhan the Unusual on Jan 25, 2010 18:20:51 GMT -5
When it comes to the applications, all we ask for is your character name, a brief bit on why they want to be the PrC in question and how they plan on learning, changing, etc. to achieve this.
You can go into as much detail as you want, but this helps give the team something to watch for other than looking at a character and wondering if what they're doing is actually going towards that goal or not. Also gives us something to work with for possible plots. This example -
Entori be'te'wa
mage. wishing to go AA.
start date =
- while very brief, tells us nothing about why Entori would want to become an AA or what he may be trying to do to take that first step in becoming an AA. Is he being taught by a fellow AA? Has be come across some lore and decided to study it to become one? How does he plan on actually learning how to apply spells to the arrows?
Do you see what I'm getting at? Also, giving us a date one when you'd like to start taking the class is kinda demanding. It's like telling the team we only have X amount of time to decide if you could take the class, based upon your RP of learning/growing into it. I can tell you, when it comes to this sort of thing, a time line is one thing we can't really stick to. There are many things we look for in both the application and the applicant. Some times it may take a while to approve an application, some times it is real quick. You may end up having to take a couple of levels in your base class(es) until approved. We will always give an answer to an application as soon as possible, but just because you apply does not necessarily mean you will be approved for it.
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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 25, 2010 18:30:31 GMT -5
When it comes to the applications, all we ask for is your character name, a brief bit on why they want to be the PrC in question and how they plan on learning, changing, etc. to achieve this. You can go into as much detail as you want, but this helps give the team something to watch for other than looking at a character and wondering if what they're doing is actually going towards that goal or not. Also gives us something to work with for possible plots. This example - Entori be'te'wa mage. wishing to go AA. start date = - while very brief, tells us nothing about why Entori would want to become an AA or what he may be trying to do to take that first step in becoming an AA. Is he being taught by a fellow AA? Has be come across some lore and decided to study it to become one? How does he plan on actually learning how to apply spells to the arrows? Do you see what I'm getting at? Also, giving us a date one when you'd like to start taking the class is kinda demanding. It's like telling the team we only have X amount of time to decide if you could take the class, based upon your RP of learning/growing into it. I can tell you, when it comes to this sort of thing, a time line is one thing we can't really stick to. There are many things we look for in both the application and the applicant. Some times it may take a while to approve an application, some times it is real quick. You may end up having to take a couple of levels in your base class(es) until approved. We will always give an answer to an application as soon as possible, but just because you apply does not necessarily mean you will be approved for it. Franklty why should he put all that here, I'd like to think that the Dm's would like to see all that IC, and that this gives them a heads up to look for it. and start date meant to be date of application, not to take the class, but the date the path was started. like when the player gets first interested, not when they take the first level. I didn't mean for it to be demanding, but I suppose I could of put that better, sorry there Aodhan. edit: role play is spontaneous not planned, I might think of ways to explain his magic to the bow a 100 different ways why should I set it in stone, roleplay is very much IMHO, action to reaction. |
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Post by Aodhan the Unusual on Jan 25, 2010 20:42:24 GMT -5
You have to remember, there are hundreds of people playing on the server. We're not asking for your entire character's history or the entire path on how they plan to make it to their PrC. Simple is better, but just giving your character name and what you want doesn't help weed you out from everyone else. We do get applications already that state, "I'm Joe, I'm applying for Blackguard," and that's it. Who is this Joe? Seriously. Who is he? If this is all we get, why should we pay closer attention to him over everyone else who has applied? Or take time away from doing stuff for the rest of the server to spend some time watching him to see if he's going the right way towards the PrC? As I said, I'm not saying it has to be a lengthy story, just a couple of lines stating who you are, why you think your character is good for it, and a basic idea on what the plan is to head that path. Like a job interview, sell your character and their reason for the PrC. And now that I understand the post on the date thing, it's really not needed. Whenever we get an app, we date it already. |
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Post by Munroe on Jan 27, 2010 22:17:00 GMT -5
I'm locking this thread. The poll closed a few hours ago and this thread is flame bait.
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)
)let me know what my character is actually looking at.
