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Post by Munroe on Jan 21, 2010 23:58:45 GMT -5
You know what I think is prestigious? A sorcerer without RDD levels. They're the rarer animal. Couldn't it be possible for two archwizards to produce a sorcerer? Say like the magical energies they used on a daily basis just kind of sank in over time? Or is a sorcerer explicitly due to cossbreeding with strange fairies and dragons? I'm not really sure how this is a reply to what I said. I just think on FRC a non-RDD sorcerer is more rare and therefore carries more prestige than an RDD that just dips into sorcerer for a few levels. It is possible that a wizardly family could produce a sorcerer. The origins of sorcery are still a mystery in-setting, or somebody would have come up with a sorcerer eugenics program. Not to stray too far from Forgotten Realms and 3.5e, but I'm going to talk about Pathfinder RPG because it directly relates to what you said. In Pathfinder RPG, every sorcerer picks a bloodline at level 1. Only sorcerers with the draconic bloodline can take the dragon disciple prestige class. The arcane bloodline, that is the sorcerer descended from a family of wizards, is the only sorcerer bloodline to get the ability to have an Arcane Bond. (Wizards in PRPG get Arcane Bond, which is the name of the bond with a familiar or the bond with a wand or staff or other object instead.) A sorcerer with draconic bloodline instead of arcane bloodline forgoes a familiar and manifests draconic features. There are also an aberrant bloodline, elemental bloodlines, a fey bloodline, an undead bloodline, outsider bloodlines, and so on, each one granting different sorcerer class features. |
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Post by easternenterprise on Jan 22, 2010 0:51:11 GMT -5
Pure sorcerers are rare, and about as rare as someone that is just a Sorcerer/DD - Everyone so far that I have seen, has tripple classed. Someday when my current old bird retires I may consider bard/DD if I am around that long.
I disagree with 90% of what Thrym said regarding the power, but I don't feel as if this is all about the power so I wont touch into that much.
Huzzah on Justicar's notion though. That's rather merciful, considering -everyone- could be depraved of the opportunity on RPing the class, so right now as it stands with it being available...we've a lot to be thankful for.
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Post by Slanker on Jan 22, 2010 4:33:31 GMT -5
Hmm...Can't we make elves by DM application only? Since there are way too many of them too! ;D
On the subject though, I don't feel the need of making RDD an 'application only' class. I have never played one, so if they're powerful or not, I can't say. But regardless of that, I fail to see why there is a need to.
Just because at this moment there seem to be plenty of them around? Well, in the time I have been playing here, this can be said of alot of things. Number of members to certain guilds, amount of people of one race, a specific class.....each of these have their peaks and lows. Just because it so happens to appearantly be RDD at the moment, hardly makes it a reason to severly limit them.
Another reason being mentioned is because they should be special and very rare, well maybe that is true according to source and such, that still does not justify to take away the opportunity for people that desire to play one. This is a computergame afterall, and since that PrC (and I feel this way about all others too, with the exception of PDK) is available, let people play it if they like.
Then there is the fact that some seem to make their PC take on a PrC, without really properly RP'ing it or reading up on what it takes to be(come) one. Well, I admit here that people perhaps should read up slightly on what it takes or requires, but I don't believe this should be a reason to make it by DM Application. Sounds a bit silly, that you need to prove first to someone you have enough knowledge before your allowed. Again this is just a computergame.
So, this is just my take on it all.
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Post by catmage on Jan 22, 2010 5:15:14 GMT -5
I don't think it should be application only, as sometimes the class, like other classes, are taken by chance, or without intending to. We have two fairly well known RDDs, and Ailren and Sharteel both are inclined to try and push sorcerer or bards they meet and like to experiment with the notion of adopting the class, especially if they suspect evil dragonblood. Also, given that two of the three currently allowed dragon disciple heritages are chaotic, the path to becoming one is probably going to be highly individualized. When you have obvious functional half dragons telling people they can become DD's, it ups the number of DD's around, naturally. At the moment, I know of seven current DD's, one of whom rarely is online. I have a character actively seeking to enter the class, and there are a few I suspect will enter the class. Hardly seems like we're up to our ears in them.
The class is in the DMG, and it stats that most often the class is made up of barbarians, fighters, and ranger who have dabbled as sorcerers or bards. The class is designed to be a melee oriented class, with the spellcasting part added for flavor and a partial balance. You at the very least sacrifice one point of ab, and take a class with suboptimal bab progression.
Finally, we play, as has been stated, adventurers, mages, the assorted atypical masses of the game world. There is a god who recently became active again that offers people the chance to change themselves into draconic beings way more obvious than dragon disciples, and people are choosing to do so. People will do odd things to become powerful, or special, and adventurers have chances for both. Seizing some tiny little spark of dragon blood is hardly going to be something only two or three people with knowledge of the possibility will seize on.
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Post by qewaye on Jan 22, 2010 6:24:08 GMT -5
Hmm...Can't we make elves by DM application only? Since there are way too many of them too! ;D Yes please  I don't mind about RDDs since most are played well, I also agree with Glandeezy AAs should be by application only too. |
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Post by The Flying Ve on Jan 22, 2010 6:57:42 GMT -5
Blackguard - If you don't do it evil, you can't do it at all. Huggles evil need not apply. Actually, having this app. only bugs me a lot more than anything else. 50% of my PCs in PnP are blackguards, I tend to lean towards the class. I can understand the reason for it, but considering it's the only template for evil paladins obviously available(there's other ways of emulating the classes in NWN), I'd actually be for dropping it application wise. You won't find that many anyway, at least not as many as RDDs, when it likely should be the other way around, source wise. Who says this isn't already happening IC? Just because it's not in the rules doesn't mean it hasn't been done or is being done again. What irks me a lot more is people RPing an "assassin" without taking a single level in the class. Sniping someone is an assassin's last resort, there's a gazillion other ways to off a mark without risking as much as a direct confrontation. Of course, this sometimes requires the other player plays along and sometimes, this doesn't happen. |
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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 22, 2010 8:30:40 GMT -5
Hmm...Can't we make elves by DM application only? Since there are way too many of them too! ;D Yes please I don't mind about RDDs since most are played well, I also agree with Glandeezy AAs should be by application only too. I would LOVE to make elves Application only |
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Post by marquardt on Jan 22, 2010 10:03:18 GMT -5
I'd love to see it application-only, if only to balance the disproportionate # of RDD's to, ah, regular people in the game.
It seems like there's an aweful lot of sexually active dragons in cormyr, the pervs!
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Post by marquardt on Jan 22, 2010 10:14:26 GMT -5
I just noticed some other people think the same and have voiced this, I would like to add this as a poll. I think there is a lot to know about this prestige class and folks take it too lightly, not to mention it becomes highly powerful. I modified the poll to add a few different choices. But I see this class poorly rped, and i'd like dm's to aid in raising the bar. Nobody is going to want to hear it but I think weapon master is in the exact same boat. Massive and un-equalled benefits, a class taken for it's power, and rarely ever roleplayed. It's my personal view that a WM's dedication to his weapon would almost rival the dedication of a monk. The problem with making all prestige classes by-application is that it bogs everything and everyone down with a ton of lame paperwork. If I were the staff I'd just add a disclaimer stating that if certain prestige classes aren't adequately roleplayed the prestige levels will be revoked (which seems to be the concept with paladin already). This puts the responsibility on the players (as it should be). |
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Post by Slanker on Jan 22, 2010 10:29:46 GMT -5
Yes please I don't mind about RDDs since most are played well, I also agree with Glandeezy AAs should be by application only too. I would LOVE to make elves Application only Uhm...you do realise I was kidding right? Cause...well...it sounds kinda arrogant, snobish and elitist if you really would like to see this implemented imo. |
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Post by marquardt on Jan 22, 2010 10:54:24 GMT -5
No. I know a lot of people here think RDDs are special or something, but uhm... no? Frankly, I don't get the big deal that is made about this class here on FRC. I mean, seriously, RDD gives you: - Strength Boost: Attack Bonus wise, the +8 str exactly compensates for the 4 points of BAB you at the very least loose entering the class instead of staying a pure warrior. You also get +4 damage. Nice, but not exactly overpowered. Well, it's +6 with a two handed weapon, but frankly, if you use a two handed weapon in NWN, you deserve every boost you get. Oh, and on FRC you need to wait untill level 19 to get the last +4 bonus, so basically you're running around with worse Attack Bonus and slightly better damage then a fighter for most of your career. Did I mention you loose your fourth attack if you take anything worse BAB-wise then Full-BAB 8/Sorc 2 or Full-BAB 6/Bard 4? The only abuse potential I can see here is with Devastating Critical. But... that's banned on FRC anyways. You can't take your first prestige class level until level 10, so the notion of having your prestige class pay off "late" in your chars development is not exactly specific to RDD alone. +4 AC, +4 Damage, +4 attack bonus, great saving throws. If you think all that is fluff, you've probably not played an RDD. To put things in perspective, +4 damage requires 2 epic feats to acheive as a fighter, and +2 AC armor skin requires a feat as well. |
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Post by marquardt on Jan 22, 2010 10:57:06 GMT -5
If it were up to me they simply wouldn't be allowed at all. So I am leaning toward DM approval only. I'm curious as to why you feel this way. |
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JCrux
Old School
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Post by JCrux on Jan 22, 2010 11:11:24 GMT -5
I am against making this class application only. First off, it seems to me that some of you who complain about the class don't fully understand it yourselves. You can be 99% human with 1% dragon blood and still be able to become a dragon disciple. Being a dragon disciple doesn't mean one of your parents or grandparents was a dragon. It's not the same as being a half-elf. I've always understood that to mean a large number of people have a tiny bit of dragon blood in them. A few of them manifest that power with socercery or bardic skills. Some of those take it further to become dragon disciples. But that potential is in far more people than those that take advantage of it. I agree with Slanker that various classes and races wax and wane in popularity. I don't think it is something to be overly concerned about. Eventually the pendulum will swing the other way. I also think there are in-game reasons to explain a sudden increase in dragon disciples. Faerun just suffered under the dracorage for close to a year. That seems like reason enough to explain an increased interest in dragons and why some may decide to pursue their draconic heritage. I have to agree with Thyrm about how powerful the dragon disciple class truly is. Pursuing the class is a matter of delayed satisfaction. Until I hit level 10 in RDD I generally felt that my PC was weaker than a pure fighter PC. You do give up BAB progression and a lot of feats that fighters gain. In general the BAB loss and strength gain balance each other out. The constitution gain is nice but you also suffer from lower HP until you get there. The toughness feat is probably more beneficial than the constitution bump. I can think of only one place where immunity to paralysis helped me while the rest of my party was paralyzed. I think that encounter ended in a TPK anyway because they couldn't help me.  The breath weapon is weak. I do much more damage with my greatsword. Sleep immunity is worthless. I can't think of a single NPC or monster that tries to cast "sleep" on an attacking party. The fire immunity is a big bonus, but at epic (or near epic) levels fire damage doesn't threaten most people unless it's a deadly or epic fire trap, or perhaps while fighting a red dragon. Truthfully there's probably a bigger benefit from being multi-classed with an arcane class (bard or sorcerer). Being able to use magic wands and scrolls and cast some spells is the biggest benefit I have over pure fighters. If you feel picked on or insulted in this post, it was intentional - I used FRC examples on each of the ones I could think of them on. I have a problem with this attitude. Really?! You wanted to insult people publicly? Where's your sense of community? A lot of people are complaining about how this class is RP'd but I don't see anyone suggesting how to do it better. Instead of complaining about it and making people feel bad why not offer up some helpful suggestions? Instead of saying "You suck. A DM shouldn't allow you to play that class." why not say "Here's how I think a person would train to become a dragon disciple. Let's discuss." and start a new thread on that topic? There are lots of threads about dragon disciples already. If you think they are helpful then give them a bump and send a friendly reminder to people who play dragon disciples to read them. As has already been noted in this thread, people complain about how others RP various races and classes, whether it be elves, cleric, or whatever. We can make FRC a very unfriendly place by repeatedly telling other players they aren't good enough. I've grown a lot over the years as an RPer and in FRC/D&D lore. I think that's true for most of us. I attribute that to the patience of more experienced players and their good RP that I tried to model. Those of us who have been here a while should be more helpful than critical of newer players. We were all in their shoes at one time. Note: Off topic, but I disagree with this. What irks me a lot more is people RPing an "assassin" without taking a single level in the class. An assassin is a person who hires him or herself out to kill others. A pure wizard could be a powerful assassin. Just walk up to someone while invisible, cast finger of death or some other deadly spell, and teleport away. You don't have to know about poisons and death attacks to be an effective assassin. I think the assassin class is just one type of assassin. |
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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 22, 2010 11:13:08 GMT -5
I would LOVE to make elves Application only Uhm...you do realise I was kidding right? Cause...well...it sounds kinda arrogant, snobish and elitist if you really would like to see this implemented imo. WELL......Maybe.... perhaps..  if thats what you call the above. I rather see things played out by those who have an inkling of an idea of what the information is behind a subject/class/race. RDD and Elves have the same issue. People start roleplaying without any thought then their roleplaying they are half dragons.. when there is a very distinct difference, and i have the logs to back it up. |
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Post by longearmage on Jan 22, 2010 11:19:54 GMT -5
Uhm...you do realise I was kidding right? Cause...well...it sounds kinda arrogant, snobish and elitist if you really would like to see this implemented imo. WELL......Maybe.... perhaps.. if thats what you call the above. I rather see things played out by those who have an inkling of an idea of what the information is behind a subject/class/race. RDD and Elves have the same issue. People start roleplaying without any thought then their roleplaying they are half dragons.. when there is a very distinct difference, and i have the logs to back it up. But, to be fair, that's just about every race other than human. So (and NO, I'm not serious about this) let's make everyone human fighters! Seriously folks, let's just impress (to new players AND old players) the idea that there should be some research and heavy RP done before taking a PrC, even one that isn't application only. A little research goes along way. For example, I recently wanted to make a priestess of Hanali Celanil. Before I even fired up the character generator, I searched through half a dozen webpages on information about Hanali and her clerics. Her (my cleric) personality is slow to come through, but her actions are, I think, quite indicative of a priestess of Hanali. Then again, I'm posting after two hours in a math lab and three torturous assignments. >.> So take this as you will. Summation: Let's be smart. |
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Post by qewaye on Jan 22, 2010 11:22:36 GMT -5
I would LOVE to make elves Application only Uhm...you do realise I was kidding right? Cause...well...it sounds kinda arrogant, snobish and elitist if you really would like to see this implemented imo. So it's arrogant, snobbish and elitist if you'd like to see someone have a little bit of knowledge about elves? We're not talking about completely squashing people's fun or rp, just showing they know basic information. ..*points at signature* Anyway, sorry I spoke. |
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Post by iangallowglas on Jan 22, 2010 11:24:38 GMT -5
I am against making this class application only. First off, it seems to me that some of you who complain about the class don't fully understand it yourselves. You can be 99% human with 1% dragon blood and still be able to become a dragon disciple. Being a dragon disciple doesn't mean one of your parents or grandparents was a dragon. It's not the same as being a half-elf. I've always understood that to mean a large number of people have a tiny bit of dragon blood in them. A few of them manifest that power with socercery or bardic skills. Some of those take it further to become dragon disciples. But that potential is in far more people than those that take advantage of it. I agree with Slanker that various classes and races wax and wane in popularity. I don't think it is something to be overly concerned about. Eventually the pendulum will swing the other way. I also think there are in-game reasons to explain a sudden increase in dragon disciples. Faerun just suffered under the dracorage for close to a year. That seems like reason enough to explain an increased interest in dragons and why some may decide to pursue their draconic heritage. I have to agree with Thyrm about how powerful the dragon disciple class truly is. Pursuing the class is a matter of delayed satisfaction. Until I hit level 10 in RDD I generally felt that my PC was weaker than a pure fighter PC. You do give up BAB progression and a lot of feats that fighters gain. In general the BAB loss and strength gain balance each other out. The constitution gain is nice but you also suffer from lower HP until you get there. The toughness feat is probably more beneficial than the constitution bump. I can think of only one place where immunity to paralysis helped me while the rest of my party was paralyzed. I think that encounter ended in a TPK anyway because they couldn't help me. The breath weapon is weak. I do much more damage with my greatsword. Sleep immunity is worthless. I can't think of a single NPC or monster that tries to cast "sleep" on an attacking party. The fire immunity is a big bonus, but at epic (or near epic) levels fire damage doesn't threaten most people unless it's a deadly or epic fire trap, or perhaps while fighting a red dragon. Truthfully there's probably a bigger benefit from being multi-classed with an arcane class (bard or sorcerer). Being able to use magic wands and scrolls and cast some spells is the biggest benefit I have over pure fighters. If you feel picked on or insulted in this post, it was intentional - I used FRC examples on each of the ones I could think of them on. I have a problem with this attitude. Really?! You wanted to insult people publicly? Where's your sense of community? A lot of people are complaining about how this class is RP'd but I don't see anyone suggesting how to do it better. Instead of complaining about it and making people feel bad why not offer up some helpful suggestions? Instead of saying "You suck. A DM shouldn't allow you to play that class." why not say "Here's how I think a person would train to become a dragon disciple. Let's discuss." and start a new thread on that topic? There are lots of threads about dragon disciples already. If you think they are helpful then give them a bump and send a friendly reminder to people who play dragon disciples to read them. As has already been noted in this thread, people complain about how others RP various races and classes, whether it be elves, cleric, or whatever. We can make FRC a very unfriendly place by repeatedly telling other players they aren't good enough. I've grown a lot over the years as an RPer and in FRC/D&D lore. I think that's true for most of us. I attribute that to the patience of more experienced players and their good RP that I tried to model. Those of us who have been here a while should be more helpful than critical of newer players. We were all in their shoes at one time. Note: Off topic, but I disagree with this. What irks me a lot more is people RPing an "assassin" without taking a single level in the class. An assassin is a person who hires him or herself out to kill others. A pure wizard could be a powerful assassin. Just walk up to someone while invisible, cast finger of death or some other deadly spell, and teleport away. You don't have to know about poisons and death attacks to be an effective assassin. I think the assassin class is just one type of assassin. I 100% agree with this. Give this man a beer ;D |
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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 22, 2010 11:25:40 GMT -5
I am against making this class application only. First off, it seems to me that some of you who complain about the class don't fully understand it yourselves. You can be 99% human with 1% dragon blood and still be able to become a dragon disciple. Being a dragon disciple doesn't mean one of your parents or grandparents was a dragon. It's not the same as being a half-elf. I've always understood that to mean a large number of people have a tiny bit of dragon blood in them. A few of them manifest that power with socercery or bardic skills. Some of those take it further to become dragon disciples. But that potential is in far more people than those that take advantage of it. I agree with Slanker that various classes and races wax and wane in popularity. I don't think it is something to be overly concerned about. Eventually the pendulum will swing the other way. I also think there are in-game reasons to explain a sudden increase in dragon disciples. Faerun just suffered under the dracorage for close to a year. That seems like reason enough to explain an increased interest in dragons and why some may decide to pursue their draconic heritage. I have to agree with Thyrm about how powerful the dragon disciple class truly is. Pursuing the class is a matter of delayed satisfaction. Until I hit level 10 in RDD I generally felt that my PC was weaker than a pure fighter PC. You do give up BAB progression and a lot of feats that fighters gain. In general the BAB loss and strength gain balance each other out. The constitution gain is nice but you also suffer from lower HP until you get there. The toughness feat is probably more beneficial than the constitution bump. I can think of only one place where immunity to paralysis helped me while the rest of my party was paralyzed. I think that encounter ended in a TPK anyway because they couldn't help me. The breath weapon is weak. I do much more damage with my greatsword. Sleep immunity is worthless. I can't think of a single NPC or monster that tries to cast "sleep" on an attacking party. The fire immunity is a big bonus, but at epic (or near epic) levels fire damage doesn't threaten most people unless it's a deadly or epic fire trap, or perhaps while fighting a red dragon. Truthfully there's probably a bigger benefit from being multi-classed with an arcane class (bard or sorcerer). Being able to use magic wands and scrolls and cast some spells is the biggest benefit I have over pure fighters. If you feel picked on or insulted in this post, it was intentional - I used FRC examples on each of the ones I could think of them on. I have a problem with this attitude. Really?! You wanted to insult people publicly? Where's your sense of community? A lot of people are complaining about how this class is RP'd but I don't see anyone suggesting how to do it better. Instead of complaining about it and making people feel bad why not offer up some helpful suggestions? Instead of saying "You suck. A DM shouldn't allow you to play that class." why not say "Here's how I think a person would train to become a dragon disciple. Let's discuss." and start a new thread on that topic? There are lots of threads about dragon disciples already. If you think they are helpful then give them a bump and send a friendly reminder to people who play dragon disciples to read them. As has already been noted in this thread, people complain about how others RP various races and classes, whether it be elves, cleric, or whatever. We can make FRC a very unfriendly place by repeatedly telling other players they aren't good enough. I've grown a lot over the years as an RPer and in FRC/D&D lore. I think that's true for most of us. I attribute that to the patience of more experienced players and their good RP that I tried to model. Those of us who have been here a while should be more helpful than critical of newer players. We were all in their shoes at one time. Note: Off topic, but I disagree with this. What irks me a lot more is people RPing an "assassin" without taking a single level in the class. An assassin is a person who hires him or herself out to kill others. A pure wizard could be a powerful assassin. Just walk up to someone while invisible, cast finger of death or some other deadly spell, and teleport away. You don't have to know about poisons and death attacks to be an effective assassin. I think the assassin class is just one type of assassin. the problem Jcrux is the people who are RPing half dragon because of it, or.. are not rping any steps taken to indulge their personal sense of inspiring this blood with magic or other means then going hunting. there is a total lack of story then there should be. ontop of that it's not the ones that do it well, because those that do it well would have the knowledge to get an application approved. it's the opposed. I'd Also like to point out that RPing as a half dragon is against FRC character creation rules |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2010 11:29:59 GMT -5
Seriously, it is comments like that that give people the bad impression of Elves on this server.
Instead of making them application only, Elves that is, why not try this. Now, try to stay with me... Make an active effort to seek out the Elven players of this module and try to guide them through IC interactions and advice. I have seen a small handful of Elven players here recently that have absolutely amazed me. Their RP is astonishing. And i have seen them do what i mention above and it works.
As for PRC's, well, yeah. If your not going to put an effort into researching them, don't take the class. That simple.
~Sio
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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 22, 2010 11:36:30 GMT -5
Seriously, it is comments like that that give people the bad impression of Elves on this server. Instead of making them application only, Elves that is, why not try this. Now, try to stay with me... Make an active effort to seek out the Elven players of this module and try to guide them through IC interactions and advice. I have seen a small handful of Elven players here recently that have absolutely amazed me. Their RP is astonishing. And i have seen them do what i mention above and it works. As for PRC's, well, yeah. If your not going to put an effort into researching them, don't take the class. That simple. ~Sio anyways it's off topic. as slanker mentioned he wasn't serious.. Prc's specifically rdd. and the problem is people go OOO immune to paralyze. I'm taking that *Clickly* that goes a LONG way in pvp etc. probably as stated above a problem with the password being down, but the place was a ghost town when the password was up. Either way sio I'll pm you on the rest. |
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Post by Thrym on Jan 22, 2010 11:38:20 GMT -5
You can't take your first prestige class level until level 10, so the notion of having your prestige class pay off "late" in your chars development is not exactly specific to RDD alone. +4 AC, +4 Damage, +4 attack bonus, great saving throws. If you think all that is fluff, you've probably not played an RDD. To put things in perspective, +4 damage requires 2 epic feats to acheive as a fighter, and +2 AC armor skin requires a feat as well. You don't get +4 attack bonus. You get +4 Attack from strength and loose at least 4 attack from missing out on Base Attack Bonus. You at best break even if you make sure you don't loose any more BAB. And what great saving throws? You're fortsave is a tiny bit higher, your reflex is the same. You only get a better willsave, and that is made almost completely meaningless by the fact that you can use a PfE wand anyways (due to being a sorc or bard, not an RDD). And 'to put things in perspective' as you put it: +4 damage requires a level 12 cleric to cast a level 1 spell per combat. Easily doable too before you start debating, seeing as by that level, you can easily fill your entire first and second level slots with Divine Favour. +4 AC compared to a fighter requires a level 15 cleric to cast two magic vestments. The RDD you talk about is at least level 19. Please explain to me how he is being overpowered by doing stuff clerics could do seven/four levels ago. |
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Post by Charon's Claw on Jan 22, 2010 11:52:44 GMT -5
*head finally explodes from endless talk of building for power*
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Post by marquardt on Jan 22, 2010 12:01:34 GMT -5
You can't take your first prestige class level until level 10, so the notion of having your prestige class pay off "late" in your chars development is not exactly specific to RDD alone. +4 AC, +4 Damage, +4 attack bonus, great saving throws. If you think all that is fluff, you've probably not played an RDD. To put things in perspective, +4 damage requires 2 epic feats to acheive as a fighter, and +2 AC armor skin requires a feat as well. You don't get +4 attack bonus. You get +4 Attack from strength and loose at least 4 attack from missing out on Base Attack Bonus. You at best break even if you make sure you don't loose any more BAB. And what great saving throws? You're fortsave is a tiny bit higher, your reflex is the same. You only get a better willsave, and that is made almost completely meaningless by the fact that you can use a PfE wand anyways (due to being a sorc or bard, not an RDD). And 'to put things in perspective' as you put it: +4 damage requires a level 12 cleric to cast a level 1 spell per combat. Easily doable too before you start debating, seeing as by that level, you can easily fill your entire first and second level slots with Divine Favour. +4 AC compared to a fighter requires a level 15 cleric to cast two magic vestments. The RDD you talk about is at least level 19. Please explain to me how he is being overpowered by doing stuff clerics could do seven/four levels ago. I never said RDD was overpowered, I said what RDD got was not "fluff". I've been playing (literally) side-by-side with a high level RDD for a while now. Let me tell you there is no substitute for seeing things in action. The saving throws are nothing to shake a stick at. I've got 3 pfe wands and I still wish my will save wasn't 8. Not everything you fight is evil. He's currently around 6 levels lower than me and his saves blow mine away. If this class was as mediocre as you suggest it is I doubt people would be lining up to take it and I doubt this thread would exist. The question on the table is, should people be allowed to take it and not roleplay it, to which I humbly submit, no. |
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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 22, 2010 12:02:49 GMT -5
I just noticed some other people think the same and have voiced this, I would like to add this as a poll. I think there is a lot to know about this prestige class and folks take it too lightly, not to mention it becomes highly powerful. I modified the poll to add a few different choices. But I see this class poorly rped, and i'd like dm's to aid in raising the bar. Nobody is going to want to hear it but I think weapon master is in the exact same boat. Massive and un-equalled benefits, a class taken for it's power, and rarely ever roleplayed. It's my personal view that a WM's dedication to his weapon would almost rival the dedication of a monk. The problem with making all prestige classes by-application is that it bogs everything and everyone down with a ton of lame paperwork. If I were the staff I'd just add a disclaimer stating that if certain prestige classes aren't adequately roleplayed the prestige levels will be revoked (which seems to be the concept with paladin already). This puts the responsibility on the players (as it should be). good point. |
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Post by Slanker on Jan 22, 2010 12:15:24 GMT -5
Uhm...you do realise I was kidding right? Cause...well...it sounds kinda arrogant, snobish and elitist if you really would like to see this implemented imo. So it's arrogant, snobbish and elitist if you'd like to see someone have a little bit of knowledge about elves? We're not talking about completely squashing people's fun or rp, just showing they know basic information. ..*points at signature* Anyway, sorry I spoke. Oh, it is anything but arrogant, snobish and elitists if you'd like to see someone having a bit of knowledge about elves or any other class/race etc. i wouldn't mind seeing people knowing a bit more lore, myself including. My comment was more based on the impression I got out of both your and Ent's response, that you'd rather see elves become an 'By DM approval class' until they can prove they live up to certain standards. And that is, imo, worthy of calling it arrogant...etc. But as said it is only the impression it gave me what made me comment. If I am mistaken, I apologise. |
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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 22, 2010 12:21:59 GMT -5
So it's arrogant, snobbish and elitist if you'd like to see someone have a little bit of knowledge about elves? We're not talking about completely squashing people's fun or rp, just showing they know basic information. ..*points at signature* Anyway, sorry I spoke. by application I am thinking of a small quiz that people could probably fill out and post publicly to make sure they know enough about the race. that is my opinion on "application" Oh, it is anything but arrogant, snobish and elitists if you'd like to see someone having a bit of knowledge about elves or any other class/race etc. i wouldn't mind seeing people knowing a bit more lore, myself including. My comment was more based on the impression I got out of both your and Ent's response, that you'd rather see elves become an 'By DM approval class' until they can prove they live up to certain standards. And that is, imo, worthy of calling it arrogant...etc. But as said it is only the impression it gave me what made me comment. If I am mistaken, I apologise. |
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Post by marquardt on Jan 22, 2010 12:23:20 GMT -5
So it's arrogant, snobbish and elitist if you'd like to see someone have a little bit of knowledge about elves? We're not talking about completely squashing people's fun or rp, just showing they know basic information. ..*points at signature* Anyway, sorry I spoke. Oh, it is anything but arrogant, snobish and elitists if you'd like to see someone having a bit of knowledge about elves or any other class/race etc. i wouldn't mind seeing people knowing a bit more lore, myself including. My comment was more based on the impression I got out of both your and Ent's response, that you'd rather see elves become an 'By DM approval class' until they can prove they live up to certain standards. And that is, imo, worthy of calling it arrogant...etc. But as said it is only the impression it gave me what made me comment. If I am mistaken, I apologise. I think the elven community puts too much emphasis on elf lore and not enough emphasis on the admirable qualities that seperate them from humans. I always looked at an elf as the embodiment of all the most noble things in humanity like honor, truth, and commitment to excellence, not an endless collection of lore. That's my personal view, though. |
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Post by qewaye on Jan 22, 2010 12:49:38 GMT -5
Oh, it is anything but arrogant, snobish and elitists if you'd like to see someone having a bit of knowledge about elves or any other class/race etc. i wouldn't mind seeing people knowing a bit more lore, myself including. My comment was more based on the impression I got out of both your and Ent's response, that you'd rather see elves become an 'By DM approval class' until they can prove they live up to certain standards. And that is, imo, worthy of calling it arrogant...etc. But as said it is only the impression it gave me what made me comment. If I am mistaken, I apologise. I think the elven community puts too much emphasis on elf lore and not enough emphasis on the admirable qualities that seperate them from humans. I always looked at an elf as the embodiment of all the most noble things in humanity like honor, truth, and commitment to excellence, not an endless collection of lore. That's my personal view, though. I think we try to do that every day. But basic info, like knowing there is a pantheon of elven gods, how elves rest etc...that's not really lore as such, just should be as common as breathing. Slanker, no worries, we're cool  Anyhow..should shush as we're going off topic... |
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Post by jensmann on Jan 22, 2010 13:05:15 GMT -5
thrym, it is not about if it is overpowered or not. It is about every tom dick and harry having parents or grandparents who have all had sex with dragons. Dragons, especially evil ones, are not plentiful enough to go about having sex with countless members of the "lesser races". Dragons are solitary beings who prefer privacy. Frankly I cannot imagine seeing ANY RDD's outside of the Cult of the Dragon. Good luck being a descendant and escaping them to become a good aligned RDD. Metallic ones? Well, I don't see them breeding half-dragons and DD's at the drop of a hat either. I just don't see it. I think RDD should be extremely rare. Half-dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature). ((out of the SRD Half dragon entry)) I don't think they are very picky with what they breed and since there are a lot of them, why don't make Humans application only, with thier bonus feat at level 1 and thier extra skill point per level they are one of teh better choices for a character. (*notes there is a LOT of sarcasm in that last part) by the way luv ya all. and be ready for massive NEH's. |
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Post by ancientempathy on Jan 22, 2010 14:51:09 GMT -5
Soulfein is wrong with most of what he said on that quote Jensman did. An evil dragon is likely willing to procreate more often than a metallic dragon is, and with more things - and the number of what they could be really has no baring in this. Dragons can get very horny. We'll just keep it at that. The different type of half-dragon species out there is enough to make ones head spin in wondering just 'how' it was done. A dragon ancestor for a dragon disciple, at earliest, would need to be a grandparent. The grandparents birth one half-dragon, then the half-dragon (mom or dad) mates with a nondragon and the child they produce is likely to be a sorcerer or bard (but definitly not a half-dragon, and at the same time dont need to be a sorcerer or bard - but its possible). That's a theoritical concept there. Typically a dragon disciples ancestor is often portrayed more distant than a grandparent though. Dragon Disciples acquire their dragon apotheosis stage at level 10 when they acquire the half-dragon template. To clarify, this doesn't mean they turn and mutate into looking like an actual half-dragon though. Some DnD scholars I consider friends have debated at times on whether or not the alignment of the dragon disciple needs to also reflect the half-dragon template demand, even. There's a bunch of other nerdy things I could ramble on about too  Even the picture of the dragon disciple that the Dungeon Masters Guide provides is ambigous in the fact that, you don't know if that dragon disciple is level 9 (when you get wings), or level 10 (when you become a half-dragon), so even the appearance is shrouded in mystry as to what it could fully be. With that in mind I always recall to mind other pictures in where the labeling of a race was just wrong that DnD printed. Of all the dragon disciples on FRC, only 4 have reached the half-dragon status, and only one of which has transcended into epic dragon disciple-hood as apart of their roleplay and development (insofar as I know). Of the nearing new dragon disciples to become a half-dragon, I think that's 2 to 3 at most? All others still are either working on their first dragon disciple level, as I speculate, or only have one to two in their names. Damn this really wouldn't be an issue if the player list could just be blanketed to hide class and level To Ailrens credit, the characters he mentioned would feel a bit of a hamper in their pursuit of trying to entice sorcerers and bards into embracing a potential dragon heritage for whatever reasons they may have. I'm sure other nondragon characters may present the curious notion to their sorcerer-friend and/or bard at considering the pursuit too. This is the open invitation for any such types to just grab ahold of something that does require an extensive amount of research into. As DM Myth once told me, its a class whose value is heavily underplayed, down to even its appearance, with many just taking the class to be a "fighter with wings". There is no true style in this, there is only interest in making something strong for the sake of traveling; with no true RP contribution being done to the community at large. The above method done by players may or may not affect other dragon disciples' roleplay - its really up to that player whether or not they care that much on another. Frankily I think the bulk of the dragon disciple community tend to get along with themselves or act pleasantly towards one another? I'd like to point out to Entori that RPing to be a half-dragon is only agaisnt the rules if you aren't a half dragon, or on the road to be (because even if the dragon disciple has 4 levels, the character could already begin to claim they're a half-dragon for whatever pious reason) a half-dragon. Its interesting enough to point out that FRC's rules DOES ask for players to pick standard races. When you hit half-dragon apotheosis, you become a half-dragon and a nonstandard race, thus breaking the rule now? I'm not acusing it as such, only presenting the curious notion to it. Anyway, the fact that their whole character changes into something nonstandard may be enough to quantify the class being application only because its certainly not something to be taken lightly, and suggests a fair level of research should be done as to what they would...become. It seems some fear that the dragon disciple class (would-be half-dragons), may become the Drizzt Do'Urden equivalent amongst the adventure populace, "We adventurers are unique, but I want to be doubly-so with dragon blood!" Off the top of my head I have counted 13 dragon disciples made on FRC with likely 2 or so others I am forgetting. Keep in mind only 4 have reached the half-dragon threshold with 2 or 3 following suit. I'm not going to say its hard acquiring level 19 either in a relatively short amount of time (less than a year), but I will say that time tends to be wedding out would-be disciples faster than actual level progression. Some other things I ponder about, is, if this class were made an application long ago, I speculate that it wouldn't nearly have been placed under public spotlight as frequently as it has due to people not wanting or willing to question it. I dont think I've seen a single thread for Blackguard's being open to anyone freely, in the past year and a half to two (if there is such, someone please PM me it). I find Blackguard's as cool as I find dragon disciples. By now I think many of us have established that the dragon disciple class is a firm class to take, but clearly there are better choices. Were this Ancient in Wonderland Forgotten Realms (TM) I'd have Clerics, Wizards, Elves, Dwarves, and a variety of other things be made achieveable by application only - and I'm not the only one in this boat either who harbors this sentiment. Following this, I want to say that I am surprised to see at the amount of votes for the loose support of making PRC's through application only - this may be something the DM team wants to research into more - it certainly can't hurt, even if it won't be done. With the DM team in mind, I wonder if anyone has considered asking them if they'd mind the work of reviewing a new application? As I reread Justicar's post, it makes me fall on hands and knees to BEG to not see this class be taken away completly, and to be made an application because at the very least there is a chance to still acquire it. I'll be depressed if it becomes a banned class like Shadowdancer and Shifter. If folks think times may be rough or bad now...yeah...Just imagine what could be done  All in all I'm just mumbling and consolidating points here...I've grown a level of indifference on whether or not the PRC should be an application-only one, for FRC. It'd be nice, yes, but in hindsight it'd also not truly be required. It seems to me it'd save a lot of eyeaches for the DM team and a few players, as they're likely to not read so many threads on this class again, and assuredly DM's are likely listen to less bitching from other players and their thoughts on anothers roleplay of the class and how wrong or right it's being done. |
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I don't mind about RDDs since most are played well, I also agree with Glandeezy AAs should be by application only too.
The breath weapon is weak. I do much more damage with my greatsword. Sleep immunity is worthless. I can't think of a single NPC or monster that tries to cast "sleep" on an attacking party. The fire immunity is a big bonus, but at epic (or near epic) levels fire damage doesn't threaten most people unless it's a deadly or epic fire trap, or perhaps while fighting a red dragon. Truthfully there's probably a bigger benefit from being multi-classed with an arcane class (bard or sorcerer). Being able to use magic wands and scrolls and cast some spells is the biggest benefit I have over pure fighters.
if thats what you call the above.
Anyhow..should shush as we're going off topic... 
Even the picture of the dragon disciple that the Dungeon Masters Guide provides is ambigous in the fact that, you don't know if that dragon disciple is level 9 (when you get wings), or level 10 (when you become a half-dragon), so even the appearance is shrouded in mystry as to what it could fully be. With that in mind I always recall to mind other pictures in where the labeling of a race was just wrong that DnD printed.