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Post by malclave on Oct 27, 2020 13:48:09 GMT -5
I'm still waiting on someone to highlight the benefits of a player ran evil PC vs a DM ran evil NPC. Perspective. An NPC serves the setting or the plot. A PC serves the interests of the player (hopefully ). The same benefits a Good PC has over a Good NPC.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 13:50:10 GMT -5
I'm still waiting on someone to highlight the benefits of a player ran evil PC vs a DM ran evil NPC. Perspective. An NPC serves the setting or the plot. A PC serves the interests of the player (hopefully ). The same benefits a Good PC has over a Good NPC. A player playing an evil PC getting some benefit / interest out of their time is the hope they should have for sure. However I hope "Team Good" knows we are not here to entertain / dance for them / validate their choice in "being good". Thus my question.
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Post by Southpaw on Oct 27, 2020 13:51:18 GMT -5
I'm still waiting on someone to highlight the benefits of a player ran evil PC vs a DM ran evil NPC. I would say there is no inherent benefit at the level of one being better than the other when you are faced with that character in role play interaction. But I would say that the fact there could potentially be far more players playing evil PC's than the number of DM's we will ever have presenting evil NPC's, there is no question that allowing evil PC's greatly enhances the availability of role play with characters that are up to something your good or neutral character might care about. And that's to say nothing of the enjoyment of those players as well, I'm just answering from the perspective of someone who doesn't play an evil PC, what an evil PC might mean for them. Edit: As I said earlier, though, I think the challenge is more consistent as a scenario where you actually could lose, so the danger is "real." A DM could do the same thing with an NPC, but very often choose not to. While I respect those reasons, I prefer scenarios where at least some level of danger of failure is "real." That's not inherent to it being an NPC, though, but a common choice made by a lot of DM's.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 27, 2020 13:53:55 GMT -5
I guess some people have trouble remaining objective about what they know and what their characters know. No ones characters for the most part know most of this. You can move ahead assuming that yours doesn't either. I will try to do so, but my point is (which I guess I am not being clear with) is that I think too much is shared / revealed on the forums and there should be some level of integrity to prevent that. Like I said earlier once you're bit by OOC going IC that doesn't go away. You are only required to use the forums to look at server updates and server rules honestly. I think a good portion of people that play on FRC might benefit from doing that and only that. We had a facebook group years ago (yes i know there is one now but it's not the same one), and it was a huge source of discontent about the server. Sometimes the forum can be, and social media totally is, a place where negative feelings are broadcast and spread regarding what happens IC on FRC.
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Post by mandene on Oct 27, 2020 13:55:56 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying mandane.. I've played on both sides.. but if you haven't played evil and tried what we are talking about its hard for me to explain it so you understand how demoralizing it is. you say you get noticed as an outlaw.. correct.. you are also free game for everyone.. you can no longer go to any city's where war wizards has just a slight hold. because you will get caught asap. Outlawing is a DM verdict that is as bad as if they perma killed your char or perma retired him for you. its the same thing. I haven't played "fully" evil character on FRC... yet. So no, I can only empathize here. I've played evil in the past, though; and all of my characters have a capacity for both good and evil. Considering the way guilds are designed here, I'll probably not be able to join any evil groups either, unless they are inofficial or designed as a "player group" and not a guild. Perhaps this is one of the reasons for "we and them" feelings that grow. As players we get defined by our choices IG. I do believe all alignments are needed as much as all races are needed. Why are we playing on a PW otherwise? My conviction is so high on this, that this poll is just too weird to me. I'm fairly certain the DMs want it to be that way as well. But maybe the problem is that there's no true definition what to do with them. Is the evil merely tolerated, an annoyance for the dms and edms. Or do we truly have a place for it?
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Eldok
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Atonement is the way
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Post by Eldok on Oct 27, 2020 14:00:03 GMT -5
Sometimes it seems like those are the only "wins" by comparison, which I feel is echoed by many on "team evil". What would be an example of something you'd like to see as a win for 'Team Evil'. Nothing specific, just a generic example. Team evil winning the Zorastryl battle. You say there was no way IC or OOC for them to actually win, that wasn't the case until McGuff and Unknown stopped running the plot. It just happened to be so because the new DMs in charge decided for the plot to go that route. It wasn't a plot ran by players anymore, like it was when those two DMs were in charge. Currently this server is meant to be played with good aligned characters.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 27, 2020 14:03:32 GMT -5
I haven't played "fully" evil character on FRC... yet. So no, I can only empathize here. I've played evil in the past, though; and all of my characters have a capacity for both good and evil. Considering the way guilds are designed here, I'll probably not be able to join any evil groups either, unless they are inofficial or designed as a "player group" and not a guild. Perhaps this is one of the reasons for "we and them" feelings that grow. As players we get defined by our choices IG. I do believe all alignments are needed as much as all races are needed. Why are we playing on a PW otherwise? My conviction is so high on this, that this poll is just too weird to me. I'm fairly certain the DMs want it to be that way as well. But maybe the problem is that there's no true definition what to do with them. Is the evil merely tolerated, an annoyance for the dms and edms. Or do we truly have a place for it? As a longtime former, and now retired DM for FRC I can say that even the DMs that you think generally only cater to good PCs, enjoy watching the machinations of evil PCs, the players of evil characters that aren't shielding their status as a griever under the guise of worship of chaotic evil deities, are completely and openly welcome by the DM staff. We have had, and probably have now, DMs that prefer to swing one way or the other on alignments they work with more. When I left the Team in I think 2015 there was not and had never been a place on the DM team for DMs who opposed the existence of evil aligned PCs.
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Post by PhatDorf on Oct 27, 2020 14:09:37 GMT -5
I suppose all of my evil characters are invalid then I didnt get the memo that it was pointless, during the fun I was having just playing the damn game. I'm honestly shocked by how many people seriously think that FRC shouldn't have evil characters, it boggles my mind.
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Post by Yendis on Oct 27, 2020 14:10:57 GMT -5
The problem with these sorts of discussions is that rarely will you find more than one or two people that agree on the definition of any alignment. I usually play lawful good and have been doing so in a variety of environments for the past 27 years or so. I'm willing to bet many people that play the same alignment would argue over their interpretation of said alignment. It is what happens when you try to shoe horn realistic people into a specific definition of how they should act.
As far as evil player characters go, I'm fine with them. But again, it goes to my interpretation of alignments and how I personally think they should be played. If you play evil in the "I always wear skull covered black armor and do evil laughs but QQ when I get called out walking around a generally good town" then frankly you need to step up your game. If you play evil in the way that can fool anyone that doesn't have a detect alignment spell handy, then you're doing it right in my book.
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Post by malclave on Oct 27, 2020 14:15:23 GMT -5
I hear you, but if there is an imbalance (perceived or otherwise) between the alignments then it begs the question of why the choice of allowing evil players was an option from the beginning. Thus this thread, and poll question to get the community's perspective as a whole. Well said. And it isn't far cry at all. You can't really understand until you've been on that evil losing side. I also think there's a big systemic slur against evil characters on the server. My character Aein has been subject to that in the final of a contest during the Shieldmeet. Aein won that final, but the other contenstant, Orichan, who is good aligned and well appreciated on the server, called for lagg during the fight. And because Aein is not well seen on the server, alignement and character wise, everyone said yes to that rematch because they didn't want the bad character to win that fight. Imagine if the case was inverted, Aein a good and appreciated character, Orichan a bad and not well perceived character, nobody would have let the rematch happen. I can't really speak to the event since I didn't see it... I don't go to many RP events any more unless I have a strong IC reason, especially if I'm feeling prone to depression. I have to wonder though, if what you describe is due not so much to alignment as to Orichan's popularity. Granted, it's easier for a Good aligned character to be popular, but do you think a less well-liked Good aligned character would have gotten the same benefit? ((and did you have to bring up Shieldmeet? my dwarf is still grumbling because I didn't realize the one event I entered was effectively monk only, I'd been hoping to give Ving a fight at least ))
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 27, 2020 14:17:04 GMT -5
What would be an example of something you'd like to see as a win for 'Team Evil'. Nothing specific, just a generic example. Team evil winning the Zorastryl battle. You say there was no way IC or OOC for them to actually win, that wasn't the case until McGuff and Unknown stopped running the plot. It just happened to be so because the new DMs in charge decided for the plot to go that route. It wasn't a plot ran by players anymore, like it was when those two DMs were in charge. Currently this server is meant to be played with good aligned characters. Sometimes DMs bail, become inactive, or leave loose ends for unknown reasons. All existing DMs can possibly do is take on those plots and resolve them, or choose NOT to resolve them. I have been the victim of both scenarios and to be honest I wish someone had just picked up the pieces and resolved them. DM Hawk has done so much towards resolving dropped lines of roleplay by previous DMs that I cannot imagine the amount of difficulty and discontent he has dealt with yet remained positive and moved forward. I am sure other DMs have done this that I do not know about. When this happens it is extremely difficult to know where these loose ends were going, and you do your best. McGuffin was not infallible even when he was active, and absolutely did not blindly just allow things to go as the players wanted them to. He had a clear endgame scenario for his plots and certain hard endings. Were those endings gotten to, the ones that he intended? We may never know. I am not taking anyone's side here, or picking on you, I am just pointing out that plots have desired endings in certain areas and saying that this plot or that would have ended more favorably had x or y DM remained in charge is an error. Even plots where one DM ran the show start to finish, there are unhappy players at the end wether that is majority, minority, or just a few fringe in one direction or the other.
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Post by Razgriz on Oct 27, 2020 14:18:40 GMT -5
What would be an example of something you'd like to see as a win for 'Team Evil'. Nothing specific, just a generic example. Team evil winning the Zorastryl battle. You say there was no way IC or OOC for them to actually win, that wasn't the case until McGuff and Unknown stopped running the plot. It just happened to be so because the new DMs in charge decided for the plot to go that route. It wasn't a plot ran by players anymore, like it was when those two DMs were in charge. Currently this server is meant to be played with good aligned characters. Vindel tried to recruit Ving once for Matthias side, but he was not convincing enough. When DMS Unknown and McGuffin were still running the plot, one could still see from miles away that Marister (Not the man of mystery), instead of obnoxious Matthias, was the one favored in the story. For some reason, some characters decided they wanted to stick with their guns erm... catapults, and remain at Matthias side, when it was more than evident he was not going to win. Aein himself was given a somehwat blunt chance to "jump the ship and suffer no consequence" when Urbuchek murdered him in a duel and Matthias told him he was not wanted as captain of the guard anymore. Why did Aein return to fight for one who only used him as a pawn in chess board?
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Post by mandene on Oct 27, 2020 14:48:33 GMT -5
I suppose all of my evil characters are invalid then I didnt get the memo that it was pointless, during the fun I was having just playing the damn game. I'm honestly shocked by how many people seriously think that FRC shouldn't have evil characters, it boggles my mind. Sounds like I nees to vote, even though I consider this to be a no-brainer.
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Eldok
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Atonement is the way
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Post by Eldok on Oct 27, 2020 14:52:22 GMT -5
Team evil winning the Zorastryl battle. You say there was no way IC or OOC for them to actually win, that wasn't the case until McGuff and Unknown stopped running the plot. It just happened to be so because the new DMs in charge decided for the plot to go that route. It wasn't a plot ran by players anymore, like it was when those two DMs were in charge. Currently this server is meant to be played with good aligned characters. Vindel tried to recruit Ving once for Matthias side, but he was not convincing enough. When DMS Unknown and McGuffin were still running the plot, one could still see from miles away that Marister (Not the man of mystery), instead of obnoxious Matthias, was the one favored in the story. For some reason, some characters decided they wanted to stick with their guns erm... catapults, and remain at Matthias side, when it was more than evident he was not going to win. Aein himself was given a somehwat blunt chance to "jump the ship and suffer no consequence" when Urbuchek murdered him in a duel and Matthias told him he was not wanted as captain of the guard anymore. Why did Aein return to fight for one who only used him as a pawn in chess board? What was going to happen wasn't clear at all man, and that precise event wasn't a chance given to Aein neither, it had barely nothing to do about it. McGuffin was about to run an event that was going to change a lot of perspective before he left. Right now you're just putting words out there without knowing facts of what really happened there or what was actually going to happen. Aein returned to Matthias' services afterwards simply because he did not want Vindel to manipulate Matthias. And he was not kicked out of the house, taking that duel against Urbucheck was a choice of his, not anyone else, and that's what I'm trying to say, back then choices seemed to have an impact while in an evil field.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 14:55:20 GMT -5
I suppose all of my evil characters are invalid then I didnt get the memo that it was pointless, during the fun I was having just playing the damn game. I'm honestly shocked by how many people seriously think that FRC shouldn't have evil characters, it boggles my mind. I like evil characters, it adds a unique perspective to situations. I really enjoyed the interaction of our druids, since we are opposites it was really interesting and I think people enjoy those type of situations or playing something frowned upon by society.
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Post by Razgriz on Oct 27, 2020 14:57:06 GMT -5
Vindel tried to recruit Ving once for Matthias side, but he was not convincing enough. When DMS Unknown and McGuffin were still running the plot, one could still see from miles away that Marister (Not the man of mystery), instead of obnoxious Matthias, was the one favored in the story. For some reason, some characters decided they wanted to stick with their guns erm... catapults, and remain at Matthias side, when it was more than evident he was not going to win. Aein himself was given a somehwat blunt chance to "jump the ship and suffer no consequence" when Urbuchek murdered him in a duel and Matthias told him he was not wanted as captain of the guard anymore. Why did Aein return to fight for one who only used him as a pawn in chess board? What was going to happen wasn't clear at all man, and that precise event wasn't a chance given to Aein neither, it had barely nothing to do about it. McGuffin was about to run an event that was going to change a lot of perspective before he left. Right now you're just putting words out there without knowing facts of what really happened there or what was actually going to happen. Aein returned to Matthias' services afterwards simply because he did not want Vindel to manipulate Matthias. And he was not kicked out of the house, taking that duel against Urbucheck was a choice of his, not anyone else, and that's what I'm trying to say, back then choices seemed to have an impact while in an evil field. Seems like Matthias manipulated both? Even if he had won, the outcome would not have been good for Aein. That is what I am trying to say.
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Eldok
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Atonement is the way
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Post by Eldok on Oct 27, 2020 15:00:49 GMT -5
What was going to happen wasn't clear at all man, and that precise event wasn't a chance given to Aein neither, it had barely nothing to do about it. McGuffin was about to run an event that was going to change a lot of perspective before he left. Right now you're just putting words out there without knowing facts of what really happened there or what was actually going to happen. Aein returned to Matthias' services afterwards simply because he did not want Vindel to manipulate Matthias. And he was not kicked out of the house, taking that duel against Urbucheck was a choice of his, not anyone else, and that's what I'm trying to say, back then choices seemed to have an impact while in an evil field. Seems like Matthias manipulated both? Even if he had won, the outcome would not have been good for Aein. That is what I am trying to say. Why not, Aein actually progressed a lot as an individual while being with Matthias, in a good way, but people just don't know about that.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 15:08:25 GMT -5
I'll have to agree that not everyone knew what the outcome was going to be.
...but I don't want to get into that mess. Those wounds will take time to heal. I do wonder why those DMs left, but I don't think we'll ever know for sure.
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Post by Razgriz on Oct 27, 2020 15:08:31 GMT -5
Seems like Matthias manipulated both? Even if he had won, the outcome would not have been good for Aein. That is what I am trying to say. Why not, Aein actually progressed a lot as an individual while being with Matthias, in a good way, but people just don't know about that. I guess Aein was onborad with going full Blackguard then. Dude... Matthias was doing wickedly evil stuff. Raising mutant hounds, displaying a massive Kesef tattoo on his back, and cursed with immortality. He only needed twirl his mustache and smirk, I guess.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 15:10:00 GMT -5
Why not, Aein actually progressed a lot as an individual while being with Matthias, in a good way, but people just don't know about that. I guess Aein was onborad with going full Blackguard then. Dude... Matthias was doing wickedly evil stuff. Raising mutant hounds, displaying a massive Kesef tattoo on his back, and cursed with immortality. He only needed twril his mustache and smirk, I guess. Yeah but if that was done openly that's kind of poor play. If it was done to where only one person saw it then that's something different entirely.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 15:19:19 GMT -5
Also stating things such as "you should have known" is not really fair because not only do we (individually) as people perceive and understand things differently everyone won't always pick up the same clues. Characters may also interact with the NPC at different times so some clues may not be found or seen at all. The point with that event was that the results (the battle) was railroaded for "team good" to win no matter who, or what, they had to murder along the way to their goal. That level of railroading, and taking away of player choice, has not only lead to some player to player relationships to end, but player to DM relationships to be impacted as well.
How is that good for any of us?
Shouldn't we be telling the story through our actions, and the world around us be provided in narration?
...but the Zorastryl incident should be a separate topic to be honest. Let's try to stay macro with this op.
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Eldok
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Atonement is the way
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Post by Eldok on Oct 27, 2020 15:25:32 GMT -5
Why not, Aein actually progressed a lot as an individual while being with Matthias, in a good way, but people just don't know about that. I guess Aein was onborad with going full Blackguard then. Dude... Matthias was doing wickedly evil stuff. Raising mutant hounds, displaying a massive Kesef tattoo on his back, and cursed with immortality. He only needed twirl his mustache and smirk, I guess. Not at all. And well, I believe that is the story Hawk came up with, not the one I was going aboard with when McGuff was running the plot.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 27, 2020 15:30:49 GMT -5
Also stating things such as "you should have known" is not really fair because not only do we (individually) as people perceive and understand things differently everyone won't always pick up the same clues. Characters may also interact with the NPC at different times so some clues may not be found or seen at all. The point with that event was that the results (the battle) was railroaded for "team good" to win no matter who, or what, they had to murder along the way to their goal. That level of railroading, and taking away of player choice, has not only lead to some player to player relationships to end, but player to DM relationships to be impacted as well. How is that good for any of us? Shouldn't we be telling the story through our actions, and the world around us be provided in narration? ...but the Zorastryl incident should be a separate topic to be honest. Let's try to stay macro with this op. There was already a very thorough explanation of the event done. People either do not believe it, reject it, or accept it. It's clear from the poll at this point that people definitely wish for evil PCs to still be a thing on FRC. You may not have gotten the discussion you wanted, but you did get the votes. Myself and lots of other people have played evil, and been satisfied with the events enough over the years that we did continue. I am really happy with where my character is and the choices made over the last 14 years of play. I definitely feel like my evil PC has made a serious impact on the server over time through both my personal initiatives with roleplay and my participation in multiple large DM Plots over that time period.
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Post by DM Hawk on Oct 27, 2020 15:39:04 GMT -5
What would be an example of something you'd like to see as a win for 'Team Evil'. Nothing specific, just a generic example. Team evil winning the Zorastryl battle. You say there was no way IC or OOC for them to actually win, that wasn't the case until McGuff and Unknown stopped running the plot. It just happened to be so because the new DMs in charge decided for the plot to go that route. It wasn't a plot ran by players anymore, like it was when those two DMs were in charge. Currently this server is meant to be played with good aligned characters. A quick fact check, though I think more may be needed... DM Unknown was present for the Zorastryl battle event and he ran the Cormyrian NPC's while I assisted by running Matthias's side. This took place before ownership of the plot changed hands.
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Post by DM Hawk on Oct 27, 2020 15:45:09 GMT -5
I guess Aein was onborad with going full Blackguard then. Dude... Matthias was doing wickedly evil stuff. Raising mutant hounds, displaying a massive Kesef tattoo on his back, and cursed with immortality. He only needed twirl his mustache and smirk, I guess. Not at all. And well, I believe that is the story Hawk came up with, not the one I was going aboard with when McGuff was running the plot. Fact Check 2: This is incorrect.
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Post by Dimitri on Oct 27, 2020 15:48:33 GMT -5
The Ironsworn could tell things were off and bad about Matthias from the getgo. Both "brothers" attempted to hire us. We went with the one that wouldn't be the one to ruin Ironsworn reputation by siding up with. And also for the event the PCs of evil may have been stronger positioned, etc... but you have to consider you were up against the Crown. The unrepresented ARMY of Cormyr and War Wizards that would come down on team Matthias. But the event is long over, it shouldn't be brought up over and over again as is.
On the point of Evil PCs, yes, they should exist. Just as good exists there's going to be shades of gray and black among peoples souls. Depending on how forward you are with that, be prepared for consequences in the form of outlaw, hatred(IC) over certain actions, and so on.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 16:01:43 GMT -5
Sometimes it seems like those are the only "wins" by comparison, which I feel is echoed by many on "team evil". What would be an example of something you'd like to see as a win for 'Team Evil'. Nothing specific, just a generic example. Well I said I would get back with you so here we go: Honestly what I would want is to sit on the throne ruling over Cormyr, or have the Crown submit to Bane raising his flag for all to see. Afterall that is Bane's goal, is it not? Sure I understand that is impossible due to various factors, and may never (probably never) be achieved. Players on "team good" want that level of interaction yet when approached with the idea being told "nope" seems contrary to what people want. That said things I would also want: - A clear understanding of what can be achieved by an evil player worshiping an evil deity
- Team Evil to set a realistic goal after there is an understanding with the previous point. Especially if they are all in the same guild or player group.
- A way for evil players to play, and drive their own stories, without always having to be in a DM plot for it to happen
- More places for Team Evil to gather than the Thayan Enclave (especially outside of Cormyr). More on this in a moment.
- Players to mind their own business when someone casts a spell. If a character casts a spell at a charging Ogre it should not matter if it came from an evil priest, or a good one.
- Players in general to not feel like they have to be in a DM plot to be noticed. Not everyone can devote 6+ months of Saturdays for 6-8 hours a day to play (see Zorastryl stuff). Doing that invites FOMO (fear of missing out), and forcing players into a plot because (reasons), especially without any clear-cut timeframe of when the player is free to do as they wish again is simply unacceptable.
- If evil does something good players in another town should not come rushing to the area because of a DM shout. There is no way, realistically, that players in say Greatgaunt should know of something that happened in Skull Crag the moment it happened. Using the caravans to "teleport" to be on the scene before team evil can get away just ruins whatever they are doing, and breaks immersion like a Kit-Kat bar.
- Less drama
- Perhaps some communication with a player playing an evil character worshiping an evil deity that happens by level 5 to make sure there won't be issues, and proactively handle any concerns (and perhaps avoid threads like this and / or players getting frustrated to the point of breaks / quitting)
- Communication to players in a guild or group to let them know of a plot they could be involved in that they may not be aware of. While this may seem contrary to my third point what I am getting at here is that players should be comfortable to play, and a DM plot be presented to them as a choice, instead of players standing around waiting for something to happen. This reminds me I have a PM to send.
- To have some considerations be given to a request before a "no" is given. It seems too easy to give that as an answer.
- Others in "team evil" to understand that backstabbing, and outing others of the same / similar alignment has consequences beyond whatever happens "in game". I understand "in character" actions, but sometimes certain plots are extended long beyond their expiration date unnecessarily due to some insatiable thirst to be right / correct, or something else. How many people have just quit because they "took it on the chin" too much? "Grin and bear it" should not be something team evil has to do to be accepted here.
As far as the Thayan Enclave point I am surprised they have not kicked out anyone on team evil who hides out there that has caused problems in Cormyr. I would think they would not want the thousands of invisible purples and war wizards on their door step threatening their trade agreement because (insert whomever the evil character flavor of the week is here) is hiding out there / operates out of there. It seems to be used as "base" akin to the game of tag. Go do something bad, run back to the Enclave, shout "BASE!" and feel you're immune. If I was playing a Red I would be annoyed by the outsiders on my turf. Especially if they are doing something that could hurt Thay's bottom line. If all that is built is just Cormyr (and no I'm not counting the Underdark as that's not easily accessible by everyone) then I again ask the question of why is evil allowed as an alignment? If we had some towns beyond the Crown's borders (Proskur, Westgate, Daerlun, anything in Sembia, etc) that could allow "Team Evil" to have it's own space away from "Team Good" beyond any guild halls / etc. Plus adding depth to the server should be looked upon as a good thing.
That's what I have at the moment. It may seem like a lot, but there's still a bit of hope that if we all work together then things can get better.
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Post by Southpaw on Oct 27, 2020 16:07:56 GMT -5
I think a major sticking point with the Zorastryl plot is some number of people thinking Matthias's side had a chance to win, when it didn't, and if I'm reading things right, feeling a little set up by the DM to take a fall that was determined OOC'ly. If I were in that position, I'd not feel that great. So I wonder if it's worth asking, how is a person supposed to know whether their plans are about to run into a DM's Interposing Hand if they try what they have in mind, vs. what times they might actually be able to accomplish what they want to, especially as an evil PC? That would be a question that would probably be best if a DM or two (or six) were to answer, because they're the ones who set up plots like this and run them, at times in preference to plots involving no undefeatable powers. So ... how is a player supposed to know what things can be attained vs. what things can't? And I ask this as a player who has tried to do things in DM plots at times that were very simple, like trying to get a block of archers to line up *behind* the armored front line, instead of shielding all the metal plating from the enemy with their bodies which makes no tactical sense, only to have absolutely nothing come of it. So it's not just going up against the war wizards that can be entirely futile. If a DM has a reason they want a milk jug to be on the left end of the table to serve their plot, that milk jug will take on the gravitational inertia of a neutron star when you try to move it. I've experienced this. You don't have to go up against overwhelming IC powers.
So the question is, how are we to know when we are setting ourselves up against the DM, and not just PC's or NPC's with limited power in the game?
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Post by Razgriz on Oct 27, 2020 16:16:05 GMT -5
What would be an example of something you'd like to see as a win for 'Team Evil'. Nothing specific, just a generic example. As far as the Thayan Enclave point I am surprised they have not kicked out anyone on team evil who hides out there that has caused problems in Cormyr. I would think they would not want the thousands of invisible purples and war wizards on their door step threatening their trade agreement because (insert whomever the evil character flavor of the week is here) is hiding out there / operates out of there. It seems to be used as "base" akin to the game of tag. Go do something bad, run back to the Enclave, shout "BASE!" and feel you're immune. If I was playing a Red I would be annoyed by the outsiders on my turf. Especially if they are doing something that could hurt Thay's bottom line. If all that is built is just Cormyr (and no I'm not counting the Underdark as that's not easily accessible by everyone) then I again ask the question of why is evil allowed as an alignment? If we had some towns beyond the Crown's borders (Proskur, Westgate, Daerlun, anything in Sembia, etc) that could allow "Team Evil" to have it's own space away from "Team Good" beyond any guild halls / etc. Plus adding depth to the server should be looked upon as a good thing.
That's what I have at the moment. It may seem like a lot, but there's still a bit of hope that if we all work together then things can get better.
I only want to comment about that but ehh... It is known that certain Red Wizards "mingle" if are not outright Banites or evil faiths themselves. Thus why they likely did not care when their brothers and sisters came rushing to the enclave for a safe heaven after a strike somewhere.
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Post by magiuss on Oct 27, 2020 16:23:13 GMT -5
As far as the Thayan Enclave point I am surprised they have not kicked out anyone on team evil who hides out there that has caused problems in Cormyr. I would think they would not want the thousands of invisible purples and war wizards on their door step threatening their trade agreement because (insert whomever the evil character flavor of the week is here) is hiding out there / operates out of there. It seems to be used as "base" akin to the game of tag. Go do something bad, run back to the Enclave, shout "BASE!" and feel you're immune. If I was playing a Red I would be annoyed by the outsiders on my turf. Especially if they are doing something that could hurt Thay's bottom line. If all that is built is just Cormyr (and no I'm not counting the Underdark as that's not easily accessible by everyone) then I again ask the question of why is evil allowed as an alignment? If we had some towns beyond the Crown's borders (Proskur, Westgate, Daerlun, anything in Sembia, etc) that could allow "Team Evil" to have it's own space away from "Team Good" beyond any guild halls / etc. Plus adding depth to the server should be looked upon as a good thing.
That's what I have at the moment. It may seem like a lot, but there's still a bit of hope that if we all work together then things can get better.
I only want to comment about that but ehh... It is known that certain Red Wizards "mingle" if are not outright Banites or evil faiths themselves. Thus why they likely did not care when their brothers and sisters came rushing to the enclave for a safe heaven after a strike somewhere.
It is Known ?.. i would like to see the IC RP that would defend any information about such.. It is Known that Bane is not an illigal faith in Thay that is correct. But many faiths are allowed in Thay.
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