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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 27, 2020 10:56:40 GMT -5
Since the emphasis for the question at all is off the table as information that will not be posted, all that I can say of the rest is that rewards aren't always material. A win for evil isn't just gold, items, taking territory. The win in roleplay is character development and in that vein alignment is essential. Some of my biggest losses in those senses have been wins for my character development. Life changing moments that alter the goals, beliefs, and motivations of a character are my wins. I think sometimes you should question why you play a character at all, not that characters fluid, or eventual alignment.
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Post by Razgriz on Oct 27, 2020 11:12:00 GMT -5
If Cormyr is simply too static, lawful and good to be shaped by evil significantly, why don't the Zhentharim Banites try to expand elsewhere as they do in canon?
Why not conquering some sections of the Underdark and build a Lawful Evil version of Coudstone that supplies drow and Ilithild with fresh thralls from the surface? Just an idea, and it could probably take years to develop, and maybe it is more complex than that.
As I say, just an idea, but maybe what needs to be done, is to think outside the box some more, and focus where the least resistance from the forces of good is to be expected.
Still, I think that sometimes the evils in general focus too much in the past, where Valkur's Roar was called Redmist and when evil ruled that city. Why not trying a different approach this time?
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 11:25:50 GMT -5
If Cormyr is simply too static, lawful and good to be shaped by evil significantly, why don't the Zhentharim Banites try to expand elsewhere as they do in canon? Why not conquering some sections of the Underdark and build a Lawful Evil version of Coudstone that supplies drow and Ilithild with fresh thralls from the surface? Just an idea, and it could probably take years to develop, and maybe it is more complex than that. As I say, just an idea, but maybe what needs to be done, is to think outside the box some more, and focus where the least resistance from the forces of good is to be expected. Still, I think that sometimes the evils in general focus too much in the past, where Valkur's Roar was called Redmist and when evil ruled that city. Why not trying a different approach this time? Redmist? Redmist? Now that's a name I've not heard in a long time. A long time. All memes aside I totally understand your point, and this goes for any player group / guild / etc. Not just us, and some of what you suggest comes at the cost of all of us working together. btw the opening of a shrine to Umberlee in Valkur's Roar (emphasis mine) to me, as a player and lover of The Realms, is a (censored) move and is real big (censored) energy. Kudos to whomever pulled that off. Not my cup of tea though. ...but that's a topic for another time.
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Post by Lady Frost on Oct 27, 2020 11:31:44 GMT -5
The Evil PCs killed me in that roleplay, as an example of evil vs. evil. Ha! Darkharp wasn't supposed to come! We were like wtf do we do about Darkharp! We have no choice. *sadface* I'm not even sure where to start... Many good points have been made and some of what I'll say will repeat them. I think I'll start with - FRC and Cormyr are a LG/NG setting. That means the status quo is pitted against evil and against chaos. The actions of those two are going to have to overcome the status quo. Things -for- the status quo will nearly always be easier and to accomplish. This is generally why evil and those who create conflict have a harder time and those acting with the Crown's interest have an easier time. If you choose to battle the status quo it will be hard. Cormyr is a very hard place for known evil to thrive - especially unlawful evil. Hidden evil and evil within the law can get away with some things. To overcome the status quo takes a long time and usually more work than most players are willing to put in. But it's not impossible and it's been done before. That's not completely true.. when you play against an evil PC and you play on the side of the crown.. you know you will always win. The crown never loses no matter the amount evil PCS would put into an event. there hasn't even been temporary loses for the crown for ages. you know they will always come out on the safe end. Most of the DM plots recently has been start-middle event-end player driven Roll play hasn't been able to derail these events. no matter the effort. This is of course just my observations from the side that always loses and never gets a win. not even a part ''win'' which would be nice.. for evil chars the consequence of losing means you lose your char, so when you enter events and can't even get small wins that makes it fun for you. the over all picture of ''IF'' evil players should be allowed should more be a question about What do the evil PC's get out of enter Dm plots and events to flavor it up.. Again just my perspective as i have pretty much always been on the losing side.. and i can't really recall we ever got a single ''win'' and in a Win i don't mean we take over everything and rule with an iron fist.. never gonna happen so forget it. but small wins. The Crown has lost before, but you're right, it's never an overwhelming defeat. The Crown has had control for a long time and it's a very stable region - a huge defeat doesn't really make sense. There are smaller losses and setbacks, however, here and there. If you're trying to large-plot against the Crown you can't expect to win. You have to chip away - like say - getting a massive orc horde to live right next door. I'd say that's not a great day for the Crown. Evil sometimes is on the side of the crown. Evil being divided is one of the long standing philosophical reasons it does not succeed. This is very true. For many years there have been two distinct sides to Team Evil - and other smaller sects. One is conflict-oriented and the other subtle. The two branches very rarely work together and even work against each other sometimes - The Zorastryl plot was one example of this. Yet if events was completly player driven Roll play. you would see the evil side win alot more.. but its not We don't play in a world with only PC's though. The NPC population is millions bigger than the PC population. You have to take into the status quo. If you choose to battle against it, especially publically you have to be prepared for great defeats. It's why the subtle evil branch doesn't take up those battles. When the subtle evil branch loses, nobody is much wiser to it. [Eh. I'll disagree with this as some places aren't areas that good aligned folks were using / building upon / etc. Some places were even built for the purposes of the evils to use so nothing was truly "taken" or "won" from the opposition in the traditional sense. The Blood of One Truth had a guildhall that numerous opposing characters knew about and couldn't do anything about. Redmist was controlled by evil for a while. The big one right now though is the Stonelands. But that's also the status quo. On the opposite side of that is the status quo of monsters in the wild. Characters have a very hard time RP'ing the clearing of areas from monsters. Monsters always keep coming back. There are other status quos too and they're all very hard to overcome. To conclude... I think the main focus of the thread is that a number of evil-playing players have gotten upset recently with decisions against their actions or intentions. I don't have the fine details of everything but I do know there have been a number of conflicts between these players and DMs over the past year which have compounded on more long-term feelings. I'll try to explain what I mean in a way that doesn't put the blame anywhere specifically, especially since I'm part of this problem too. - As has been said in the entire thread, the status quo is against evil and chaos. That means evil and chaos have to work extra hard and will suffer more failures. However, many players of the evil and chaotic characters don't find the DM's ratio of 'extra work' to 'fun factor' to be fair. We feel ignored and over-looked. Many of us see the players who never speak up about what they want get ignored, their intentions never recognized. So players, like me, speak up for those other players and ourselves. We create organizations and plots that include other characters. We pester DM's, we become squeaky wheels, and we don't let ourselves or others get ignored. Over time this has created resentment between the DMs and players of characters like me. DM's think I'm entitled, rude, combative, and a strain on the integrity of our small society, and I can see why they think that; it's not lost on me. They look at my character who has lots of things to her name and wonder why I'm -still- combative and annoying - why I think I should still get more. The answer is because I'm not doing it for my character. I'm doing it for the large number of characters who play in her stories. I think other players are trying to do similar things and are running into 'the frustration' which has built up over the years and the conflict between player and DM is causing players to get frustrated and give up. I think players need to realize that working against the status quo takes time, is frustratingly slow work, and is more likely to not be successful, but DMs also need to realize not everyone plays here for over a decade and that characters need to see a fair 'extra work' to 'fun factor' ratio. Providing a reason for something to fail over simply ignoring it and leaving the player unknown as to the status of an attempt at something may also help players feel some satisfaction. /10cents
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 11:44:01 GMT -5
Bravo. Well said. Some of this may not echo my concerns 100%, but I have felt hesitant to push harder to avoid the things you have said above.
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Post by magiuss on Oct 27, 2020 11:57:44 GMT -5
Yet if events was completely player driven Roll play. you would see the evil side win alot more.. but its not We don't play in a world with only PC's though. The NPC population is millions bigger than the PC population. You have to take into the status quo. If you choose to battle against it, especially publicly you have to be prepared for great defeats. It's why the subtle evil branch doesn't take up those battles. When the subtle evil branch loses, nobody is much wiser to it. /10cents What I meant with this comment is.. DM's makes Plots and a storylines that they wish to follow and an outcome they wish to have. which means the PC's who enter those events technically has 0 impact on the result as it will always end as the DM wants it.. that's what I meant with Player driven RP.. because we are told its Player driven these events and what we do will change what happens but that is not true.. I can't speak for all DM's.. but the events I have joined it has been so. If these events were player driven RP the outcome could be anything.. I DM pen and paper.. and everything my players do has an effect on what happens, which means the plots i have made some times change completly and the outcome that i wanted never happens because they outsmarted me. and i LOVE that.. on this server.. i've not experiences player driven roll play from the evil's side have any impact. which means in the end, i've decided to stay 1000 miles away from any DM plots or events. cause i don't find it funny when im technically just a pawn that has no influence on the outcome. cause they are already decided in advance. This means if you pick the wrong side or make a wrong choice as an Evil PC the punishment is much harsher. most likely outlaw status, which is an unofficial permanent retirement from the DM's side of a PC. Again these are just my perspectives and experiences on this server.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 12:15:34 GMT -5
To try to steer this back on track I'll ask this:
What does a player playing an evil PC do that a DM ran evil NPC doesn't do? What void is being filled, if any?
That was in the original OP, and I don't think has been touched upon in great detail.
Sure PVPing with your buddies might be great and all (for you, not for me), but what is it that a player evil PC does that a DM (who really is also a player) ran evil NPC does not?
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Eldok
Proven Member
Atonement is the way
Posts: 217
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Post by Eldok on Oct 27, 2020 12:16:44 GMT -5
I personally don’t think evil characters should be allowed on the server because of the way the world is built and the way it is led by the DM team. There’s no room allowed for a true evil character. Just look at examples like Darius or Netharmith, they got absolutely crushed, no chance for them at all. And their presence on the server didn’t really have an impact at all, when it should have been the case. I’ve got to agree with what Magnius says here. Another example of how evil characters are brought down is the latest event with Matthias Zorastryl. The evil group should have never lost that battle, they defeated the majority of the good PCs in that battle, but the DMs placed some invincible NPC on the goods’ side and raised them in order to give them a win. That should totally have not happened. When something like that happens to an evil character it is very frustrating for them and proved they don’t have a place in this world because they always lose. And why would a person play to constently lose?
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 12:27:19 GMT -5
I personally don’t think evil characters should be allowed on the server because of the way the world is built and the way it is led by the DM team. There’s no room allowed for a true evil character. Just look at examples like Darius or Netharmith, they got absolutely crushed, no chance for them at all. And their presence on the server didn’t really have an impact at all, when it should have been the case. I’ve got to agree with what Magnius says here. Another example of how evil characters are brought down is the latest event with Matthias Zorastryl. The evil group should have never lost that battle, they defeated the majority of the good PCs in that battle, but the DMs placed some invincible NPC on the goods’ side and raised them in order to give them a win. That should totally have not happened. When something like that happens to an evil character it is very frustrating for them and proved they don’t have a place in this world because they always lose. And why would a person play to constently lose? Let's not forget that not everyone has the rig or speed to keep up with that large of a battle. Many players were lagging, some even crashed only to log back in dead when that should not have happened. I'm surprised the server did not crash honestly.
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Post by malclave on Oct 27, 2020 12:29:02 GMT -5
To try to steer this back on track I'll ask this: What does a player playing an evil PC do that a DM ran evil NPC doesn't do? What void is being filled, if any? That was in the original OP, and I don't think has been touched upon in great detail. Sure PVPing with your buddies might be great and all (for you, not for me), but what is it that a player evil PC does that a DM (who really is also a player) ran evil NPC does not? I personally don’t think evil characters should be allowed on the server because of the way the world is built and the way it is led by the DM team. There’s no room allowed for a true evil character. Just look at examples like Darius or Netharmith, they got absolutely crushed, no chance for them at all. And their presence on the server didn’t really have an impact at all, when it should have been the case. I’ve got to agree with what Magnius says here. Another example of how evil characters are brought down is the latest event with Matthias Zorastryl. The evil group should have never lost that battle, they defeated the majority of the good PCs in that battle, but the DMs placed some invincible NPC on the goods’ side and raised them in order to give them a win. That should totally have not happened. When something like that happens to an evil character it is very frustrating for them and proved they don’t have a place in this world because they always lose. And why would a person play to constently lose? These may be reasons a player may choose not to play an Evil character, but that's a far cry from not allowing players to do so at all.
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Post by mandene on Oct 27, 2020 12:30:06 GMT -5
What I meant with this comment is.. DM's makes Plots and a storylines that they wish to follow and an outcome they wish to have. which means the PC's who enter those events technically has 0 impact on the result as it will always end as the DM wants it.. that's what I meant with Player driven RP.. because we are told its Player driven these events and what we do will change what happens but that is not true.. I can't speak for all DM's.. but the events I have joined it has been so. If these events were player driven RP the outcome could be anything.. I DM pen and paper.. and everything my players do has an effect on what happens, which means the plots i have made some times change completly and the outcome that i wanted never happens because they outsmarted me. and i LOVE that.. on this server.. i've not experiences player driven roll play from the evil's side have any impact. which means in the end, i've decided to stay 1000 miles away from any DM plots or events. cause i don't find it funny when im technically just a pawn that has no influence on the outcome. cause they are already decided in advance. This means if you pick the wrong side or make a wrong choice as an Evil PC the punishment is much harsher. most likely outlaw status, which is an unofficial permanent retirement from the DM's side of a PC. Again these are just my perspectives and experiences on this server. If the story is railroaded, than it's railroaded for all characters,not only the evil ones. What might look like a great outcome for the good side, might not really be as such, because the good mifht have either got entirely other results than what they were trying for.. Or actually felt being pushed in a certain direction, experiencing that other actions were ignored. This is an extreme, though. The (e)dms tend to have a more or less pre-planned story or its goal. The more you deviate from it the harder it gets to push your goals and motives. The best I can suggest is to work on the story with the dm, as a villain in the story. The other alternative is to work towards the goal of the event but for your own personal reasons. Some really evil characters have been recognized in the past as heroes of Cormyr. I can't promise it works, but it will probablh be the least amount of frustration.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 12:36:23 GMT -5
To try to steer this back on track I'll ask this: What does a player playing an evil PC do that a DM ran evil NPC doesn't do? What void is being filled, if any? That was in the original OP, and I don't think has been touched upon in great detail. Sure PVPing with your buddies might be great and all (for you, not for me), but what is it that a player evil PC does that a DM (who really is also a player) ran evil NPC does not? I personally don’t think evil characters should be allowed on the server because of the way the world is built and the way it is led by the DM team. There’s no room allowed for a true evil character. Just look at examples like Darius or Netharmith, they got absolutely crushed, no chance for them at all. And their presence on the server didn’t really have an impact at all, when it should have been the case. I’ve got to agree with what Magnius says here. Another example of how evil characters are brought down is the latest event with Matthias Zorastryl. The evil group should have never lost that battle, they defeated the majority of the good PCs in that battle, but the DMs placed some invincible NPC on the goods’ side and raised them in order to give them a win. That should totally have not happened. When something like that happens to an evil character it is very frustrating for them and proved they don’t have a place in this world because they always lose. And why would a person play to constently lose? These may be reasons a player may choose not to play an Evil character, but that's a far cry from not allowing players to do so at all. I hear you, but if there is an imbalance (perceived or otherwise) between the alignments then it begs the question of why the choice of allowing evil players was an option from the beginning. Thus this thread, and poll question to get the community's perspective as a whole.
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Post by magiuss on Oct 27, 2020 12:42:46 GMT -5
If the story is railroaded, than it's railroaded for all characters,not only the evil ones. What might look like a great outcome for the good side, might not really be as such, because the good mifht have either got entirely other results than what they were trying for.. Or actually felt being pushed in a certain direction, experiencing that other actions were ignored. This is an extreme, though. The (e)dms tend to have a more or less pre-planned story or its goal. The more you deviate from it the harder it gets to push your goals and motives. The best I can suggest is to work on the story with the dm, as a villain in the story. The other alternative is to work towards the goal of the event but for your own personal reasons. Some really evil characters have been recognized in the past as heroes of Cormyr. I can't promise it works, but it will probablh be the least amount of frustration. Thing is I'm not talking about railing the story.. I'm talking about you ''Can't'' railroad a story because they are preplanned.. you can only play along and end the same place anyway. for an evil PC the consequence of that, is just waaaaaaay higher then for good PC. because they usually end up perma dead/outlawed. so again.. I would argue the question asked in this thread.. ''Should FRC continue to allow evil PC'' should be, ''is it worth playing an evil PC anymore on FRC?'' again just my take on it.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 12:49:43 GMT -5
I'm still waiting on someone to highlight the benefits of a player ran evil PC vs a DM ran evil NPC.
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Eldok
Proven Member
Atonement is the way
Posts: 217
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Post by Eldok on Oct 27, 2020 12:50:53 GMT -5
These may be reasons a player may choose not to play an Evil character, but that's a far cry from not allowing players to do so at all. I hear you, but if there is an imbalance (perceived or otherwise) between the alignments then it begs the question of why the choice of allowing evil players was an option from the beginning. Thus this thread, and poll question to get the community's perspective as a whole. Well said. And it isn't far cry at all. You can't really understand until you've been on that evil losing side. I also think there's a big systemic slur against evil characters on the server. My character Aein has been subject to that in the final of a contest during the Shieldmeet. Aein won that final, but the other contenstant, Orichan, who is good aligned and well appreciated on the server, called for lagg during the fight. And because Aein is not well seen on the server, alignement and character wise, everyone said yes to that rematch because they didn't want the bad character to win that fight. Imagine if the case was inverted, Aein a good and appreciated character, Orichan a bad and not well perceived character, nobody would have let the rematch happen.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 27, 2020 12:56:14 GMT -5
To try to steer this back on track I'll ask this: What does a player playing an evil PC do that a DM ran evil NPC doesn't do? What void is being filled, if any? That was in the original OP, and I don't think has been touched upon in great detail. Sure PVPing with your buddies might be great and all (for you, not for me), but what is it that a player evil PC does that a DM (who really is also a player) ran evil NPC does not? Evil PCs get close to evil NPCs is a way that is really tough for good PCs to compare with. If those good PCs are to act in a way that allows them to relate to evil NPCs they end up evil eventually. Some go with this and some attempt to redeem themselves. Evil PCs also do things for hidden reasons that have an up front or two reason that doesn't seem to be evil. They add layers of intrigue to existing DM plots. Evil PCs can do good things, it's sometimes overlooked that they form real friendships, sometimes with truly good PCs and there is always an internal conflict on both sides. Good PCs do evil things and sometimes not to the point they shift alignment out of the good spectrum. Evil is not as black and white as it seems. My evil PC does lots of good. He educates children, acts as a sage for good PCs and gives truly good advice, supports orphans, serves a neutral deity, provides support for good causes without hidden motivations because it's the right thing to do. Works towards the downfall of much larger evils. Sometimes it's not your actions that make you evil, it's your motivations. Sometimes it's not your motivations that make you evil, it's your actions. What evil PCs do that evil NPCs do not is bring a human element to the darker side of the story. Darkharp will take very real risks to help a friend, alignment doesn't even play into this at all. He will do dark deeds to help a friend and never ever tell them about it. You have to remember that sometimes because of actions vs. motivations and motivations vs. actions, you honestly have no idea who is evil. I have managed to play an evil character for well over a decade and be involved in exactly 4 PVP events in that time, 3 out of those 4 were against other evil PCs. There was a big underground push many years ago to unite all evil guilds that fell apart and didn't work. I have often imagined how different things could be had that worked and the stated goals been partially or completely achieved. The level of losses you incur as an evil PC are huge. Years of planing can fall apart and it can be devastating to you mentally. Imagine though that time when you actually win, and it all becomes clear why you do what you do. Evil does win and the biggest difference is that you know nothing about it sometimes when it happens.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 13:06:23 GMT -5
To try to steer this back on track I'll ask this: What does a player playing an evil PC do that a DM ran evil NPC doesn't do? What void is being filled, if any? That was in the original OP, and I don't think has been touched upon in great detail. Sure PVPing with your buddies might be great and all (for you, not for me), but what is it that a player evil PC does that a DM (who really is also a player) ran evil NPC does not? Evil PCs get close to evil NPCs is a way that is really tough for good PCs to compare with. If those good PCs are to act in a way that allows them to relate to evil NPCs they end up evil eventually. Some go with this and some attempt to redeem themselves. Evil PCs also do things for hidden reasons that have an up front or two reason that doesn't seem to be evil. They add layers of intrigue to existing DM plots. Evil PCs can do good things, it's sometimes overlooked that they form real friendships, sometimes with truly good PCs and there is always an internal conflict on both sides. Good PCs do evil things and sometimes not to the point they shift alignment out of the good spectrum. Evil is not as black and white as it seems. My evil PC does lots of good. He educates children, acts as a sage for good PCs and gives truly good advice, supports orphans, serves a neutral deity, provides support for good causes without hidden motivations because it's the right thing to do. Works towards the downfall of much larger evils. Sometimes it's not your actions that make you evil, it's your motivations. Sometimes it's not your motivations that make you evil, it's your actions. What evil PCs do that evil NPCs do not is bring a human element to the darker side of the story. Darkharp will take very real risks to help a friend, alignment doesn't even play into this at all. He will do dark deeds to help a friend and never ever tell them about it. You have to remember that sometimes because of actions vs. motivations and motivations vs. actions, you honestly have no idea who is evil. You worshiping a Neutral deity is different than me worshiping Bane. So your experience is already going to be different than mine, and different than what I am asking with this thread / poll. Also I honestly think that it should be no one's business who someone worships unless that player/character sees someone actively worshiping an evil deity, or doing an evil act in game (as in logged in to the game not on the forums). I don't interact with much of the player base because once you are bitten by OOC going IC you tend to lose trust. A lot. So I have to protect myself probably way more than many other players do in order to carve even a small piece of enjoyment out of playing here.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 27, 2020 13:09:16 GMT -5
Evil PCs get close to evil NPCs is a way that is really tough for good PCs to compare with. If those good PCs are to act in a way that allows them to relate to evil NPCs they end up evil eventually. Some go with this and some attempt to redeem themselves. Evil PCs also do things for hidden reasons that have an up front or two reason that doesn't seem to be evil. They add layers of intrigue to existing DM plots. Evil PCs can do good things, it's sometimes overlooked that they form real friendships, sometimes with truly good PCs and there is always an internal conflict on both sides. Good PCs do evil things and sometimes not to the point they shift alignment out of the good spectrum. Evil is not as black and white as it seems. My evil PC does lots of good. He educates children, acts as a sage for good PCs and gives truly good advice, supports orphans, serves a neutral deity, provides support for good causes without hidden motivations because it's the right thing to do. Works towards the downfall of much larger evils. Sometimes it's not your actions that make you evil, it's your motivations. Sometimes it's not your motivations that make you evil, it's your actions. What evil PCs do that evil NPCs do not is bring a human element to the darker side of the story. Darkharp will take very real risks to help a friend, alignment doesn't even play into this at all. He will do dark deeds to help a friend and never ever tell them about it. You have to remember that sometimes because of actions vs. motivations and motivations vs. actions, you honestly have no idea who is evil. You worshiping a Neutral deity is different than me worshiping Bane. So your experience is already going to be different than mine, and different than what I am asking with this thread / poll. Also I honestly think that it should be no one's business who someone worships unless that player/character sees someone actively worshiping an evil deity, or doing an evil act in game (as in logged in to the game not on the forums). I don't interact with much of the player base because once you are bitten by OOC going IC you tend to lose trust. A lot. So I have to protect myself probably way more than many other players do in order to carve even a small piece of enjoyment out of playing here. We are talking patron deities here. My character also worships a number of evil deities, because he is a polytheist, and not a priest.
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Post by Lady Frost on Oct 27, 2020 13:09:46 GMT -5
The Zorastryl plot is a good example of the two sides of Evil not agreeing. Zoe's group put pieces in play on all the sides and when we realized which side would win we pulled out and supported the side we knew would win. The actual battle against Zorastryl didn't matter, there was no way Cormyr and the Crown would let him stand once his secrets were out and it'd be battle after battle until he lost. He faced insurmountable odds. Every sign, to us, IC and OOC showed he'd lose eventually.
However, from that plot the orc plot emerged - a completely unintentional and player-initiated plot. That's a great example of a DM allowing the PCs to dictate outcomes. However, for every plot that does get allowed there are a lot of them that don't. Zoe tried to pull the Cloudstone plot a few times and it didn't work, but because she tries over and over the odds are something will get pulled here and there - sometimes getting pulled more than others. One of the consequences of Zoe's group is, however, that when we are successful or not successful people don't know. Most players have no idea what we're doing and most of the time we're not successful, but we don't put ourselves in positions that to lose is to be an outlaw. Elith's role in the Zorastryl plot was a huge miscommunication and an example of stepping too far outside that safety zone which we normally won't do.
To end, yes, with the right DM, plots can be manipulated. It's not often or likely, but if you pull enough you'll find an end you can tug on. Maybe you get an NPC ally out of it. Maybe you get a neat item out of it. Maybe discover something for leverage to be used later. Not every 'win' is a server changing event either.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 13:10:23 GMT -5
I didn't know Darkharp, and wish I didn't learn about that here. Thus why I am striving to remain on topic.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 13:13:32 GMT -5
The Zorastryl plot is a good example of the two sides of Evil not agreeing. Zoe's group put pieces in play on all the sides and when we realized which side would win we pulled out and supported the side we knew would win. The actual battle against Zorastryl didn't matter, there was no way Cormyr and the Crown would let him stand once his secrets were out and it'd be battle after battle until he lost. He faced insurmountable odds. Every sign, to us, IC and OOC showed he'd lose eventually. However, from that plot the orc plot emerged - a completely unintentional and player-initiated plot. That's a great example of a DM allowing the PCs to dictate outcomes. However, for every plot that does get allowed there are a lot of them that don't. Zoe tried to pull the Cloudstone plot a few times and it didn't work, but because she tries over and over the odds are something will get pulled here and there - sometimes getting pulled more than others. One of the consequences of Zoe's group is, however, that when we are successful or not successful people don't know. Most players have no idea what we're doing and most of the time we're not successful. We don't put ourselves in positions that to lose is to be an outlaw. Elith's role in the Zorastryl plot was a huge miscommunication and an example of stepping too far outside that safety zone which we normally won't do. To end, yes, with the right DM, plots can be manipulated. It's not often or likely, but if you pull enough you'll find an end you can tug on. Maybe you get an NPC ally out of it. Maybe you get a neat item out of it. Maybe discover something for leverage to be used later. Not every 'win' is a server changing event either. Sometimes it seems like those are the only "wins" by comparison, which I feel is echoed by many on "team evil".
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 13:17:32 GMT -5
Also everything we as players do, regardless of alignment, should not revolve around a DM plot.
Don't we have our own stories to tell? Why are we waiting on them (the DMs)? That has never made sense to me.
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Post by Lady Frost on Oct 27, 2020 13:20:14 GMT -5
The Zorastryl plot is a good example of the two sides of Evil not agreeing. Zoe's group put pieces in play on all the sides and when we realized which side would win we pulled out and supported the side we knew would win. The actual battle against Zorastryl didn't matter, there was no way Cormyr and the Crown would let him stand once his secrets were out and it'd be battle after battle until he lost. He faced insurmountable odds. Every sign, to us, IC and OOC showed he'd lose eventually. However, from that plot the orc plot emerged - a completely unintentional and player-initiated plot. That's a great example of a DM allowing the PCs to dictate outcomes. However, for every plot that does get allowed there are a lot of them that don't. Zoe tried to pull the Cloudstone plot a few times and it didn't work, but because she tries over and over the odds are something will get pulled here and there - sometimes getting pulled more than others. One of the consequences of Zoe's group is, however, that when we are successful or not successful people don't know. Most players have no idea what we're doing and most of the time we're not successful. We don't put ourselves in positions that to lose is to be an outlaw. Elith's role in the Zorastryl plot was a huge miscommunication and an example of stepping too far outside that safety zone which we normally won't do. To end, yes, with the right DM, plots can be manipulated. It's not often or likely, but if you pull enough you'll find an end you can tug on. Maybe you get an NPC ally out of it. Maybe you get a neat item out of it. Maybe discover something for leverage to be used later. Not every 'win' is a server changing event either. Sometimes it seems like those are the only "wins" by comparison, which I feel is echoed by many on "team evil". What would be an example of something you'd like to see as a win for 'Team Evil'. Nothing specific, just a generic example.
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Post by mandene on Oct 27, 2020 13:24:52 GMT -5
Thing is I'm not talking about railing the story.. I'm talking about you ''Can't'' railroad a story because they are preplanned.. you can only play along and end the same place anyway. for an evil PC the consequence of that, is just waaaaaaay higher then for good PC. because they usually end up perma dead/outlawed. so again.. I would argue the question asked in this thread.. ''Should FRC continue to allow evil PC'' should be, ''is it worth playing an evil PC anymore on FRC?'' again just my take on it. I understand that the loss for an evil is high (a chaotic character can land as am outlaw as well and even LG can fall). But I don't understand your point anout railroading. Only pre-planned stories can be railroaded. And it's exactly what I said and meant. There are though levels in hell on how much of the pre-planning has been made and how much leeway players have. Fully pre-planned stories with both predefined outcome and path to that outxome are equally frustrating to everyone who wants to do something that fits their characters - no matter the alignment. What you see as a win, can be equally frustrating to those that have played it through. Including that many "wins" don't really mean anything either. You don't automatically fet anything for it - neither fame or advantages. Some storylines all you get is a pat on the back and xp, because as a good person you do it for the good not to gain something. You fixed the wrong and half year later nobody neither knows you were there or that it even happened. You're just one of many, mediocre goody-two-shoes. They're everywhere and competing for the same "fame and glory". IC I've even made a thing of it for my main - she's forgettable and "insignificant". Being an outlaw at least gives you a level of notoriety, consider that. I don't want to minimize your experience, but to show you the life on the other side isn't as peachy as you might think.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 13:25:00 GMT -5
Sometimes it seems like those are the only "wins" by comparison, which I feel is echoed by many on "team evil". What would be an example of something you'd like to see as a win for 'Team Evil'. Nothing specific, just a generic example. I will have to get back to you later on this as it requires some thought. I have been quite frustrated (overall) here to where I'm not sure what can be achieved anymore. I'm not even sure what we are able to achieve has ever been made clear either to be honest (outside of vague "be subtle" and "it takes a long time and that's if it works", and etc).
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Post by magiuss on Oct 27, 2020 13:30:11 GMT -5
I understand that the loss for an evil is high (a chaotic character can land as am outlaw as well and even LG can fall). But I don't understand your point anout railroading. Only pre-planned stories can be railroaded. And it's exactly what I said and meant. There are though levels in hell on how much of the pre-planning has been made and how much leeway players have. Fully pre-planned stories with both predefined outcome and path to that outxome are equally frustrating to everyone who wants to do something that fits their characters - no matter the alignment. What you see as a win, can be equally frustrating to those that have played it through. Including that many "wins" don't really mean anything either. You don't automatically fet anything for it - neither fame or advantages. Some storylines all you get is a pat on the back and xp, because as a good person you do it for the good not to gain something. You fixed the wrong and half year later nobody neither knows you were there or that it even happened. You're just one of many, mediocre goody-two-shoes. They're everywhere and competing for the same "fame and glory". IC I've even made a thing of it for my main - she's forgettable and "insignificant". Being an outlaw at least gives you a level of notoriety, consider that. I don't want to minimize your experience, but to show you the life on the other side isn't as peachy as you might think. I understand what you are saying mandane.. I've played on both sides.. but if you haven't played evil and tried what we are talking about its hard for me to explain it so you understand how demoralizing it is. you say you get noticed as an outlaw.. correct.. you are also free game for everyone.. you can no longer go to any city's where war wizards has just a slight hold. because you will get caught asap. Outlawing is a DM verdict that is as bad as if they perma killed your char or perma retired him for you. its the same thing.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 27, 2020 13:34:39 GMT -5
I didn't know Darkharp, and wish I didn't learn about that here. Thus why I am striving to remain on topic. I don't consider it that big of a deal honestly. You can assume that probably most NPCs and common folk at least pay lip service to a handful of evil deities, for their own good. I think it's a thing that needs discussion. Players seem to assume that it starts and ends with patron deities when most people pay tribute to many deities. It's only a little off topic and it's relevant. One of the things that evil PCs do to fill a void sometimes is act more like real realmsites. You don't seem to be focused at all on the hidden evils so much as the outed evils. There are realms traditions of paying tributes to evil deities and that's a void filled primarily by evil PCs most of the time, even if very few of them. One of these PCs might draw the attention of a deity or it's faith into a plot with their worship or lip service to said deities. Evil is subtle and complex and much less 'Up Front'. I think most good characters already regard Darkharp as at least a dark neutral. regarding Beshaba Beshaba was revered more out of fear than out of religious faith. Her doctrine stated that bad luck befell everybody and the only way to avoid it was by worshiping her.regarding Talona Festivals are held every 12 and are open to nondevotees, where such visitors are encouraged to pray and give offerings to Talona to spare themselves or loved ones from death, disease, wasting illnesses, and the like.regarding Shar many seek out her servants in times of grief or bereavementregarding Malar Along the frontier and in wilderness settings, however, those who must hunt for food reluctantly pay homage to the Beastlord, even as they fear his cruelty.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 13:37:43 GMT -5
I didn't know Darkharp, and wish I didn't learn about that here. Thus why I am striving to remain on topic. I don't consider it that big of a deal honestly. You can assume that probably most NPCs and common folk at least pay lip service to a handful of evil deities, for their own good. I think it's a thing that needs discussion. Players seem to assume that it starts and ends with patron deities when most people pay tribute to many deities. It's only a little off topic and it's relevant. One of the things that evil PCs do to fill a void sometimes is act more like real realmsites. You don't seem to be focused at all on the hidden evils so much as the outed evils. There are realms traditions of paying tributes to evil deities and that's a void filled primarily by evil PCs most of the time, even if very few of them. One of these PCs might draw the attention of a deity or it's faith into a plot with their worship or lip service to said deities. Evil is subtle and complex and much less 'Up Front'. I think most good characters already regard Darkharp as at least a dark neutral. regarding Beshaba Beshaba was revered more out of fear than out of religious faith. Her doctrine stated that bad luck befell everybody and the only way to avoid it was by worshiping her.regarding Talona Festivals are held every 12 and are open to nondevotees, where such visitors are encouraged to pray and give offerings to Talona to spare themselves or loved ones from death, disease, wasting illnesses, and the like.regarding Shar many seek out her servants in times of grief or bereavementregarding Malar Along the frontier and in wilderness settings, however, those who must hunt for food reluctantly pay homage to the Beastlord, even as they fear his cruelty.I understand all of that as I am quite versed in The Realms. My point is I should not learn about your character through the forums. I should learn about your character in game (and preferably in game only).
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 27, 2020 13:45:18 GMT -5
I don't consider it that big of a deal honestly. You can assume that probably most NPCs and common folk at least pay lip service to a handful of evil deities, for their own good. I think it's a thing that needs discussion. Players seem to assume that it starts and ends with patron deities when most people pay tribute to many deities. It's only a little off topic and it's relevant. One of the things that evil PCs do to fill a void sometimes is act more like real realmsites. You don't seem to be focused at all on the hidden evils so much as the outed evils. There are realms traditions of paying tributes to evil deities and that's a void filled primarily by evil PCs most of the time, even if very few of them. One of these PCs might draw the attention of a deity or it's faith into a plot with their worship or lip service to said deities. Evil is subtle and complex and much less 'Up Front'. I think most good characters already regard Darkharp as at least a dark neutral. regarding Beshaba Beshaba was revered more out of fear than out of religious faith. Her doctrine stated that bad luck befell everybody and the only way to avoid it was by worshiping her.regarding Talona Festivals are held every 12 and are open to nondevotees, where such visitors are encouraged to pray and give offerings to Talona to spare themselves or loved ones from death, disease, wasting illnesses, and the like.regarding Shar many seek out her servants in times of grief or bereavementregarding Malar Along the frontier and in wilderness settings, however, those who must hunt for food reluctantly pay homage to the Beastlord, even as they fear his cruelty.I understand all of that as I am quite versed in The Realms. My point is I should not learn about your character through the forums. I should learn about your character in game (and preferably in game only). I guess some people have trouble remaining objective about what they know and what their characters know. No ones characters for the most part know most of this. You can move ahead assuming that yours doesn't either.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 13:48:01 GMT -5
I understand all of that as I am quite versed in The Realms. My point is I should not learn about your character through the forums. I should learn about your character in game (and preferably in game only). I guess some people have trouble remaining objective about what they know and what their characters know. No ones characters for the most part know most of this. You can move ahead assuming that yours doesn't either. I will try to do so, but my point is (which I guess I am not being clear with) is that I think too much is shared / revealed on the forums and there should be some level of integrity to prevent that. Like I said earlier once you're bit by OOC going IC that doesn't go away.
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