Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 8:17:40 GMT -5
We still never got an answer as to what recent events preceded the thread....
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Post by Razgriz on Oct 27, 2020 8:18:27 GMT -5
There is another Thayan enclave in Marsember that nobody ever uses. I'm even tempted to finally roll a Red Wizard stationed there just to claim the best office and magic lab available there.
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Post by PhatDorf on Oct 27, 2020 8:19:57 GMT -5
My first character was a paladin fell as a consequence of roleplay with an Evil PC. I spent the following years of my roleplay on them dealing with that, and it was great. Hilp got destroyed via the combined efforts of evil PCs supporting an ongoing story. The RCMH "won" the Sembian War, but it was at best a pyrrhic victory, as towns were destroyed, people died, half the RCMH retired after, the others that survived were left with severe trauma - and the badguys got away. I wasn't involved in particular with VR things, but I remember the debacle with the maze was a big deal a few years ago, where the evil PCs did well. My old Sharran cleric kidnapped several kids with others in their posse a few years ago. There are also COUNTLESS other storylines that aren't publicly known and big news. The fact that they arent IS a win-condition for those Evil PCs, they got away with it. People robbing churches, and businesses, assassinations, kidnappings, etc, etc.
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Post by PhatDorf on Oct 27, 2020 8:21:54 GMT -5
We still never got an answer as to what recent events preceded the thread.... Because it was clickbait.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 8:22:51 GMT -5
There is another Thayan enclave in Marsember that nobody ever uses. I'm even tempted to finally roll a Red Wizard stationed there just claim the best office and magic lab available there. I would like to see that place expanded more to explore. Hell I wish we had Proskur as a place to visit / shop / RP, but this is all a side note.
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Post by mandene on Oct 27, 2020 8:30:04 GMT -5
I like the fact that when you play against an evil PC in a plot you know they’re not creating a plot that’s intended for you to win, so the danger of defeat is real, and nobody is overturning it with free raises if your character dies so you can continue on the predetermined track. The fact the danger is “real” means the victory and accomplishment are real, too, if you win. To me, conflict role play and battles against evil PC’s are the most fun moments I’ve ever had on this and other servers, even over DM plots (which I’ve also enjoyed a lot, please don’t misunderstand) because of the fact they’re actually trying to succeed, and nobody is calling it back if they do. That's not completely true.. when you play against an evil PC and you play on the side of the crown.. you know you will always win. The crown never loses no matter the amount evil PCS would put into an event. there hasn't even been temporary loses for the crown for ages. you know they will always come out on the safe end. Most of the DM plots recently has been start-middle event-end player driven Roll play hasn't been able to derail these events. no matter the effort. This is of course just my observations from the side that always loses and never gets a win. not even a part ''win'' which would be nice.. for evil chars the consequence of losing means you lose your char, so when you enter events and can't even get small wins that makes it fun for you. the over all picture of ''IF'' evil players should be allowed should more be a question about What do the evil PC's get out of enter Dm plots and events to flavor it up.. Again just my perspective as i have pretty much always been on the losing side.. and i can't really recall we ever got a single ''win'' and in a Win i don't mean we take over everything and rule with an iron fist.. never gonna happen so forget it. but small wins. *shrugs* And I properly shouldn't have written this. Since both you and OP are mensioning events, I'm curious if it's the same experience of never getting anywhere and good always winning that pushed towards this thread. I'll write some more thoughts about these once I get a hold of a pc.
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Post by Southpaw on Oct 27, 2020 8:30:18 GMT -5
Evil sometimes is on the side of the crown. Evil being divided is one of the long standing philosophical reasons it does not succeed. Finally something I can agree with. 100% correct. Hell this can't be anymore correct than what it is. Nor should it...at least not to the extent where everyone is complacent and compromises what that player wants from their character. However I feel evil is more divided than good is divided. One would think the differences between Lawful Good, and Chaotic Neutral would be far wider, but it doesn't seem to be. This could be due to the nature of us individually as people (we generally do not want to commit evil acts irl), or something else entirely, however my agreement still stands. LG and CN are divided when they’re all that’s in play. As soon as evil shows up, though, pretty much everyone agrees that they need to do something about Emperor Nero and Jack the Ripper. Once evil is dealt with, it’s back to bickering about methods.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 27, 2020 8:52:03 GMT -5
Evil sometimes is on the side of the crown. Evil being divided is one of the long standing philosophical reasons it does not succeed. Yet if events was completly player driven Roll play. you would see the evil side win alot more.. but its not If things were completely player driven and the Monster Hunters had unlimited ability to hunt down and destroy evil characters, and were allowed to become War Wizards with the authority to destroy you with extreme prejudice you might win a lot less than you think.
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Ascension
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Post by Ascension on Oct 27, 2020 8:54:23 GMT -5
As someone who has played multiple Pcs on both side I am curious what brought this topic up but I'll play ball. Should they exsist... Yes. They are a part of any story as much as any villain in any story and are usually a unpredictable force when played right.
That being said I have seen a lot of evils get mad at the character and other players because it is to hard. Like it or not by playing evil you are playing a character that will create conflict evil characters -almost- do this universally by virtue of the alignment they are. Something has to make them evil. And that means you have to play them smart or at least accept the consequence of whatever makes them evil. Going to tell you a lot of goods feel similarly punished ask the long standing paladins.
A lot of pcs are neutral and without knowing for sure I would guess 50-75 percent of the server over the course of any given day as that is a freedom many enjoy having in who they play. This isn't good or bad it is simply how they enjoy being and like it or not they as a group will usually help the group that has the most to offer them situationaly. This fits lore and that is fine. Team evil has enjoyed it at times just as team good has and that is ok.
I am curious to what brought this thought about to add more..
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 27, 2020 8:59:40 GMT -5
My first character was a paladin fell as a consequence of roleplay with an Evil PC. I spent the following years of my roleplay on them dealing with that, and it was great. Hilp got destroyed via the combined efforts of evil PCs supporting an ongoing story. The RCMH "won" the Sembian War, but it was at best a pyrrhic victory, as towns were destroyed, people died, half the RCMH retired after, the others that survived were left with severe trauma - and the badguys got away. I wasn't involved in particular with VR things, but I remember the debacle with the maze was a big deal a few years ago, where the evil PCs did well. My old Sharran cleric kidnapped several kids with others in their posse a few years ago. There are also COUNTLESS other storylines that aren't publicly known and big news. The fact that they arent IS a win-condition for those Evil PCs, they got away with it. People robbing churches, and businesses, assassinations, kidnappings, etc, etc. The Evil PCs killed me in that roleplay, as an example of evil vs. evil.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 9:04:16 GMT -5
As someone who has played multiple Pcs on both side I am curious what brought this topic up but I'll play ball. Should they exsist... Yes. They are a part of any story as much as any villain in any story and are usually a unpredictable force when played right. That being said I have seen a lot of evils get mad at the character and other players because it is to hard. Like it or not by playing evil you are playing a character that will create conflict evil characters -almost- do this universally by virtue of the alignment they are. Something has to make them evil. And that means you have to play them smart or at least accept the consequence of whatever makes them evil. Going to tell you a lot of goods feel similarly punished ask the long standing paladins. A lot of pcs are neutral and without knowing for sure I would guess 50-75 percent of the server over the course of any given day as that is a freedom many enjoy having in who they play. This isn't good or bad it is simply how they enjoy being and like it or not they as a group will usually help the group that has the most to offer them situationaly. This fits lore and that is fine. Team evil has enjoyed it at times just as team good has and that is ok. I am curious to what brought this thought about to add more.. Not everything has to have a specific reason to be brought into question. Topics like this can be born over the course of years, and years of involvement. Let's take things as they are instead of looking for some nugget to understand what brought this on.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 9:05:08 GMT -5
We still never got an answer as to what recent events preceded the thread.... Because it was clickbait. Well you fell for it then didn't you? This is not clickbait.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 9:07:22 GMT -5
Any evil aligned guildhall or player group HQ. Eh. I'll disagree with this as some places aren't areas that good aligned folks were using / building upon / etc. Some places were even built for the purposes of the evils to use so nothing was truly "taken" or "won" from the opposition in the traditional sense.
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Post by PhatDorf on Oct 27, 2020 9:07:54 GMT -5
Because it was clickbait. Well you fell for it then didn't you? This is not clickbait. And yet you're providing no context, so it may as well be.
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Post by PhatDorf on Oct 27, 2020 9:11:01 GMT -5
I'll be honest here, this type of thing pops up now and again, year after year, most of us have been here long enough to see it - there's someone who's sad that they didn't get a win, and they assume everyone else is winning all the time and they alone are the victims to some big conspiracy to doom evil characters. Instead of taking it on the chin, as most people actually do - they cause a stink, quit, and try to cause a public outrage and gather support, while keeping it quiet exactly what happened - because the odds are, people will disagree with them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 9:11:50 GMT -5
Say what’s on your mind then. You can’t just say “muh recent events” for starting an unofficial poll, decline to state those events in question, and then demand to be taken seriously.
Otherwise we’re looking at the interchangeable “My alignment never wins” thread MK. 50
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Nicoen
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Post by Nicoen on Oct 27, 2020 9:15:15 GMT -5
Any evil aligned guildhall or player group HQ. Eh. I'll disagree with this as some places aren't areas that good aligned folks were using / building upon / etc. Some places were even built for the purposes of the evils to use so nothing was truly "taken" or "won" from the opposition in the traditional sense. Do you have examples of the opposite? An evil controlled area that has been taken over by good?
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 9:23:51 GMT -5
Eh. I'll disagree with this as some places aren't areas that good aligned folks were using / building upon / etc. Some places were even built for the purposes of the evils to use so nothing was truly "taken" or "won" from the opposition in the traditional sense. Do you have examples of the opposite? An evil controlled area that has been taken over by good? No, but that would imply that evil PCs once had hold of a territory, or "won".
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 9:28:11 GMT -5
Say what’s on your mind then. You can’t just say “muh recent events” for starting an unofficial poll, decline to state those events in question, and then demand to be taken seriously. Otherwise we’re looking at the interchangeable “My alignment never wins” thread MK. 50 While I appreciate your input keep in mind not everyone is involved with every thread that has ever been made here. This thread was meant to have a healthy, and civil, conversation about a topic that is important to many. Being dismissive about it doesn't help. You're better than this.
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Post by malclave on Oct 27, 2020 9:36:02 GMT -5
We still never got an answer as to what recent events preceded the thread.... Because it was clickbait. Now looking for the thread titled On topic, though, I don't play Evil characters on FRC and doubt I ever will. That's my choice, though, and I would not take away the corresponding choice of players who do want to play Evils. As far as winning against the Crown, that's just the nature of the setting IMO. Cormyr is at least nominally Good aligned, and can bring overwhelming force to bear if it chooses. At the strategic level, Evil is at a severe disadvantage unless it can marshal forces comparable to the Purple Dragons, War Wizards, and various clergies that would support the Crown against a serious threat. ((btw, #5 is Halfling Paladin Wants To Cast Deafening Clang On Frubo Prior To Greatgaunt Volunteers Muster ))
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 9:36:03 GMT -5
Please, spare me the “high road” fallacy. Here are the facts.
-you started a poll that has no real foundation, no thesis/ mission statement/ even a basic gist of what you are trying to figure out/want done.
-You’ve ignored repeated requests made in good faith to understand what is the background of the situation.
-You’ve essentially turned this into yet another “good/evil never wins” thread.(there’s a million of them, do a search)
You’re not doing us, or yourself any favors here.
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Nicoen
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Post by Nicoen on Oct 27, 2020 9:44:58 GMT -5
Do you have examples of the opposite? An evil controlled area that has been taken over by good? No, but that would imply that evil PCs once had hold of a territory, or "won". Or the history of the server implies that taking others' territory is not part of the gameplay here. New areas with PC ownership emerge usually when players have put in a lot of effort through RP and driving plots. There's plenty of evil areas that PCs worked hard to have emerge, similarly with good and neutral areas. This is not a strategy game where we take over each others' territories in the push for good/evil. There's a lot of evil PCs pulling the strings in various important places of the server. There's a lot of evil PCs plotting to gain influence in important places(many successfully doing so). Smart evil is thriving on FRC, they're not easy to see, but that's usually best for them in a generally good aligned country.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Oct 27, 2020 9:45:37 GMT -5
While I voted yes, I'm sorry, but this topic is old hat.
Saying that the "good guys" always win is false.
Saying that the "bad guys" always lose is false.
This was mentioned, but when the Evil PCs win, you actually don't hear about it. Why? Cause half of evil winning is not getting caught.
The more public the event, the higher the chance of said Evil PC to not win because with more PCs involved, the less likelihood of the Evil plot of succeeding. It's a simple equation.
There seems to be a misconception that the more you RP something, even if it's something "evil", then it's going to succeed. That if you get DM backing, then you're not going to fail.
And the stinging part comes when, after months of RP, your plot ends up failing or not working. The easy assumption is to just throw up your hands and say "oh this is because evil never wins".
What you need to do, "good" or "evil", is ask what actions were actually taken and think of the consequences of those actions. Were you cautious enough? Were you too trusting of certain things happening even though you were never given full assurances? Are you aware of who is opposing you and what are you doing to counteract them?
"Losing" in a plot can be stinging and leave one jaded, but in a multi-player environment like this, not everyone can win all the time.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 9:47:32 GMT -5
Please, spare me the “high road” fallacy. Here are the facts. -you started a poll that has no real foundation, no thesis/ mission statement/ even a basic gist of what you are trying to figure out/want done. -You’ve ignored repeated requests made in good faith to understand what is the background of the situation. -You’ve essentially turned this into yet another “good/evil never wins” thread.(there’s a million of them, do a search) You’re not doing us, or yourself any favors here. Then you can choose from continuing to comment, and thus bringing the thread down, if it displeases you that much. I'm sorry I don't have the juicy details you want to fuel a bunch of gossip discussions that do not relate to the purpose of the overall question which sparked the poll. Perhaps next time I will. See you in game. Also you can stop gaslighting me anytime now. This isn't Twitter.
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Post by Animayhem on Oct 27, 2020 9:58:14 GMT -5
Evil and good need to be. One balances the other. Evil and good are not black and white. There are shades in-between. Evil at times can be seen or act as good and good can act as evil.
Neutral in my open is the most overlooked and respected alignment. A few months after I started to play here Marister was asked to make several decisions. I played him as a neutral, yet his actions were seen as evil so I got evil points.
Eventually things got ironed out.
Hilp was not destroyed by evil people. I was there. Please read up on it.
As far as the Crown believe it or not evil is favored in my opinion. A person who is killed by an assassin needs to prove the it was such. This is hard to do since death gives you a memory wipe.
It has been suggested that subdual mode be introduced so that a person attacked by an assassin does not really die but is made alive and unconscious. When they awake, their memory can slowly return and possibly identify or give clues to the attacker.
I am getting the feeling you experienced something you did not agree with. I am also wondering why you are using an NPC account rather than a regular forum account.
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Post by Southpaw on Oct 27, 2020 9:58:49 GMT -5
I think it's worth mentioning that "chaos" has a pretty tough row to hoe here, too. "Chaos" gets put down just as much as evil does, and the way the setting is portrayed, it's almost always portrayed that the NPC's are universally opposed to it almost to the point of implying that "chaos" is synonymous with "evil." "Losing" is one thing, but as a player of many chaotic good characters, having it constantly portrayed that the NPC's in the setting can't tell the difference between chaos and evil has a pretty strong implication that "chaotic good" doesn't even exist as an alignment. That is to say, if you can't be both "chaotic" and "good" at the same time, then you can't put them together into "chaotic good," and thus the alignment doesn't even exist. A player of a lawful evil character may not always "win," or may never "win," but at least the existence of your alignment as lawful evil doesn't get denied constantly, categorically, and all but universally by every portrayal of every NPC in the entire server, and implied again by an apparent lack of opportunity to even suffer a tragic loss as the good guy who got squashed by the evils of the system. If you look at how the setting is portrayed here, at least according to what I've ever seen, you'd come to the conclusion that CG doesn't even exist as an alignment that's equally morally viable to lawful good. And to me, that implied denial of existence of the alignment at all is far more troubling than the idea of never winning.
EDIT: A chaotic good character has every opportunity to get squashed by the system. But the way it is portrayed in game, and here's the key point, also the way it is talked about OOC if you talk with DM's about it afterwards, your character wasn't the good guy, and you got squashed by the rightfulness of the system, not by its evils. Thus, you were at best CN, not CG.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 10:08:22 GMT -5
Evil and good need to be. One balances the other. Evil and good are not black and white. There are shades in-between. Evil at times can be seen or act as good and good can act as evil.
Neutral in my open is the most overlooked and respected alignment. A few months after I started to play here Marister was asked to make several decisions. I played him as a neutral, yet his actions were seen as evil so I got evil points.
Eventually things got ironed out.
Hilp was not destroyed by evil people. I was there. Please read up on it.
As far as the Crown believe it or not evil is favored in my opinion. A person who is killed by an assassin needs to prove the it was such. This is hard to do since death gives you a memory wipe.
It has been suggested that subdual mode be introduced so that a person attacked by an assassin does not really die but is made alive and unconscious. When they awake, their memory can slowly return and possibly identify or give clues to the attacker.
I am getting the feeling you experienced something you did not agree with. I am also wondering why you are using an NPC account rather than a regular forum account. To your last point I am trying to avoid forum OOC spilling into logged in game actions & knowledge. Thank you for your comment though. I do appreciate this. Again this is not about me, or what I have experienced. It's about gathering community input. What I do see is that someone will equate an evil character acting...well...in an evil manner (robbing a bank, assassinating a target, etc) as "winning" when in reality they are playing things out to how they wish their character to behave, right? Where as good "wins" by carving out part of the wilderness, and sets up a new town, regardless of how many years it takes. Those two aren't the same forms of winning as the rewards to each are quite out of balance. I could be wrong, and would like to discuss that point further.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 27, 2020 10:13:36 GMT -5
Evil and good need to be. One balances the other. Evil and good are not black and white. There are shades in-between. Evil at times can be seen or act as good and good can act as evil.
Neutral in my open is the most overlooked and respected alignment. A few months after I started to play here Marister was asked to make several decisions. I played him as a neutral, yet his actions were seen as evil so I got evil points.
Eventually things got ironed out.
Hilp was not destroyed by evil people. I was there. Please read up on it.
As far as the Crown believe it or not evil is favored in my opinion. A person who is killed by an assassin needs to prove the it was such. This is hard to do since death gives you a memory wipe.
It has been suggested that subdual mode be introduced so that a person attacked by an assassin does not really die but is made alive and unconscious. When they awake, their memory can slowly return and possibly identify or give clues to the attacker.
I am getting the feeling you experienced something you did not agree with. I am also wondering why you are using an NPC account rather than a regular forum account. To your last point I am trying to avoid forum OOC spilling into logged in game actions & knowledge. Thank you for your comment though. I do appreciate this. Again this is not about me, or what I have experienced. It's about gathering community input. What I do see is that someone will equate an evil character acting...well...in an evil manner (robbing a bank, assassinating a target, etc) as "winning" when in reality they are playing things out to how they wish their character to behave, right? Where as good "wins" by carving out part of the wilderness, and sets up a new town, regardless of how many years it takes. Those two aren't the same forms of winning as the rewards to each are quite out of balance. I could be wrong, and would like to discuss that point further. So...I get wanting to discuss, but when you are discussing something 'in light of recent events' that you can't mention...it makes it tough to answer objectively. The only people with any business responding are those involved in 'recent' events and I guess they aren't sure who they are at this point. People with no knowledge of said events can't give objective answers.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 27, 2020 10:26:25 GMT -5
To your last point I am trying to avoid forum OOC spilling into logged in game actions & knowledge. Thank you for your comment though. I do appreciate this. Again this is not about me, or what I have experienced. It's about gathering community input. What I do see is that someone will equate an evil character acting...well...in an evil manner (robbing a bank, assassinating a target, etc) as "winning" when in reality they are playing things out to how they wish their character to behave, right? Where as good "wins" by carving out part of the wilderness, and sets up a new town, regardless of how many years it takes. Those two aren't the same forms of winning as the rewards to each are quite out of balance. I could be wrong, and would like to discuss that point further. So...I get wanting to discuss, but when you are discussing something 'in light of recent events' that you can't mention...it makes it tough to answer objectively. The only people with any business responding are those involved in 'recent' events and I guess they aren't sure who they are at this point. People with no knowledge of said events can't give objective answers. You're focusing on the wrong thing (wanting to know the "recent events") instead of the overall question. Not one event causes a question like this. Nor should it. Let's stay focused.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 27, 2020 10:47:37 GMT -5
So...I get wanting to discuss, but when you are discussing something 'in light of recent events' that you can't mention...it makes it tough to answer objectively. The only people with any business responding are those involved in 'recent' events and I guess they aren't sure who they are at this point. People with no knowledge of said events can't give objective answers. You're focusing on the wrong thing (wanting to know the "recent events") instead of the overall question. Not one event causes a question like this. Nor should it. Let's stay focused. It's hard not to focus on that to be fair, since it was actually in the OP.
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