Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2008 16:27:06 GMT -5
good point, someone like Zae or Lorkus would have a very good chance of recognising the lie, where as elve would be more likely to fod you because he hates thayans.
~Sioladuil
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Post by EDM Entori on Feb 25, 2008 16:29:37 GMT -5
ahh thats a new way of looking at it I suppose I was biased... heh I'm like a rock.. sturdy and hard headed but yeah thats definitely a new spin on it at least. thanks immer/grozer
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Post by fred on Feb 25, 2008 17:02:41 GMT -5
Some of the previous clearly said "if you dont emote to disguising your voice" then you arent doing so. I knew I shouldn't have said anything on this thread: all that happens is my opinions get all twisted around. I really try to be respectful of disguises and I thought I did a pretty good job at it. I'm deleting my earlier post, please do me a kindness and don't quote it again.
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Post by DM Grizwald on Feb 25, 2008 17:37:32 GMT -5
unless you are telling me you can pick out Ranan's body in a crowd? Ranan's body consists of saggy pale granny skin and that roller walker that just recently got invented.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 25, 2008 18:01:57 GMT -5
My putting this link in this thread wasn't a mistake.
PM me with the reason why you think I put it here.
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Post by Grozer on Feb 25, 2008 18:34:12 GMT -5
Some of the previous clearly said "if you dont emote to disguising your voice" then you arent doing so. I knew I shouldn't have said anything on this thread: all that happens is my opinions get all twisted around. I really try to be respectful of disguises and I thought I did a pretty good job at it. I'm deleting my earlier post, please do me a kindness and don't quote it again. Actually I wasnt even referring to your post, sorry you took it that way.
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Post by Aodhan the Unusual on Feb 25, 2008 18:41:36 GMT -5
My putting this link in this thread wasn't a mistake. PM me with the reason why you think I put it here. *eye twitches and she walks away*
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Post by fred on Feb 25, 2008 18:43:00 GMT -5
Actually I wasnt even referring to your post, sorry you took it that way. Eh, well, I shouldn't have then, sorry, err. *smacks self for posting while upset* Bad Fred, no cookie!
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Post by johntherevolator on Feb 25, 2008 20:14:56 GMT -5
Some of the previous clearly said "if you dont emote to disguising your voice" then you arent doing so. I knew I shouldn't have said anything on this thread: all that happens is my opinions get all twisted around. I really try to be respectful of disguises and I thought I did a pretty good job at it. I'm deleting my earlier post, please do me a kindness and don't quote it again. You've always been respectful to me when I've been in disguise, as have most others for that matter so no worries there mate'e. But then, if people want me to roll a bluff, I will if I think its nessessary and they ask in a tell. I don't think thats too much to ask.
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Post by SlothfulCat on Feb 25, 2008 20:15:00 GMT -5
So you are saying Aria has a photographic memory? One look and she is going to be able to remember it forever. Intellegence does not equal excellent memory. Think of the absent minded professor. Knows quantum physicals.. always losses his car keys. Hells.. aria has glasses.. so her eye sight sucks obvously. *grins* If looking at someones face is a condition of doing business with Aria.. then I would expect them to show their face. If they don't, why would Aria do business with them and she has every right to refuse. If aria tries to pull their hood off, and they try and avoid it.. best be getting those dice out to see if she is successful as they try to avoid it happening. Just be sure to give them a chance to try and avoid it. emote *tries to pull back hood* instead of *pulls back hood*. But remember.. a 1 on the die roll might mean you poked out his eye.. which is why rolling to beat a disguise is always a futile gesture with her, however a gesture she's entitled to if its fitting My and therefore her memory isnt photographic, so meh... doesnt stop that reaction of "Hey I know that glowy orange staff... evil wizard gettup... oh thats Alino over there." Without a floaty name... kind of like how one look at Dornak helmed up with his axe up is all you need to know Dornob has arrived. Same deal with Zak and his kilt... so... heres my advise... *holds up kneelength plad skirt, white shirt and necktie* This is teh new uniform for all our villans... to be worn with this... *holds up blondehaired wig* and this... *holds up mask painted to look like Jessica Simpson*... if all of you dress just like this... no one will ever knwo who you really are! Or which one of you you are... just remember to apply with this handy dandy magical glue... and remember... use warm water not sand to fill your fake bossom balloons... it feels more real! And don't forget to giggle... its not convincing if you don't giggle!
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Post by ancientempathy on Feb 25, 2008 21:47:59 GMT -5
*Sends a PM to Richard, then falls out the chair laughing at the secret*
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Feb 26, 2008 2:06:26 GMT -5
Mynian was saying she's never had to make checks, but ill bet its because she isn't actively going around trying to "fool" people. Almost like RPing fear, a lot of players seem incapable of RPing that they've been hoodwinked... even if they are a wisdomless fighter without a single rank in any personality skill.
Jake Jarcy is a pretty new character. Three weeks old maybe. I have been asked to make near a dozen roles. Even though I have luckly made every one, only a few people I have out-bluffed have actually RPed their characters as having been convinced. Most will come up to me all the time asking questions like "So, where's brother Marcus Jake???" for no reason. I try to explain OOC that this should not be occuring, and some "get it" while others completely disreguard me and refuse to cooperate. heck, I had one guy flat out refuse to make a listen vs my bluff and insisted that his character could "recognising my voice" after having seen Brother Marcus once, and hearing my voice from across town even though we'd never met. Dispite my thick accent and lack therof as brother Marcus. He even became hostile when I tried to explained it and threatened to have me banned with incriminating screen shots of my OOC explanation of how bluff and disguises work, so that those around us at the time would know to ignore the "RP" of this guy basesly accusing me. All it takes is one person to say later around his buds in the Regal: "I heard a guy say Jake Jarcy is dressing up like an Ilmatari! It must be true!" and the jig is up. No more fun. This crap spreads like wild fire.
Usually, people get it, and those that dont I try to direct here. But uninentional Meta-Gaming from inexperianced players (or just plain jerks like the above mentioned) can do a lot of damage and I hope others will take such information with a grain of salt and maybe inquire a bit before passing on ill-gotten info.
Manshin
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Feb 26, 2008 2:18:10 GMT -5
Ya but then I'd also have to decrease my length by 25% if I wanted anyone to believe that Jake was actually Logan.
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Post by brian333 on Mar 1, 2008 8:45:24 GMT -5
Here's my issue: the assumption of disguise requires I treat all PC's as if they are in disguise all the time, and verify before I interact with them that they are in fact not disguised before I even speak to him.
Given the Jake/Marcus thing: hypothetically if I'm passing by and my character has been introduced to Jake, I may say, "Hi, Jake," and the response will be, "//ooc: Hey, you can't do that, I'm in disguise, and now you've ruined it!"
Instead, given the opportunity, I'd prefer to accept your disguise, it usually means nothing to my PC anyway. How can I know before hand? You have to tell me.
In the hypothetical case mentioned, an ooc or tell saying, "I'm disguised," would result in my saying, "//ooc: Sorry, my bad! Please ignore!"
I'm not out to make anyone roll away untill they fail, and I'm not out to find excuses to ruin your disguise. I just need to know when you are and when you are not disguised. My only other choice is to stop before interacting with another and ask ooc: "Are you disguised?"
It's too bad they made the floaty-name-thingy. It's too bad they made it so you couldn't change the floaty-name with a worn item. Given the situation, though, it's what we have to deal with. You always have it no matter what you might be emoting, so if you are in disguise and it's something I need to know to interact with your PC, please emote it before I out your disguise without knowing you even had one!
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Post by Aodhan the Unusual on Mar 1, 2008 10:48:04 GMT -5
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Post by ancientempathy on Mar 1, 2008 11:07:08 GMT -5
I had posted that earlier in this thread I believe, but I truly wonder if people click on links anymore hehe
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Post by brian333 on Mar 1, 2008 12:39:00 GMT -5
I know how to turn floaty-names off, but that still does not solve the problem of there being no visual clue in game to the fact of a PC's disguise, or lack thereof. For this some means of communication is required.
I can assume everone wearing a hood is in disguise, but my character has never seen Joseph without a hood. Should I not recognise him even though we've spent many hours RP'ing together in Isinhold? Should I assume Joseph without a hood is in disguise?
While playing Nather, Edward did something I thought amazing. He came into Isinhold wearing vagabond rags. Instantly I assumed several things, the first of which was that Ed was disguised, because it's quite unusual to see Ed without his armor. Did I ask him to roll disguise? Did I call him Ed and say hateful things to the well known torturer? Did I call the guard and expose the known and wanted murderer/torturer?
What I did was to have Nather go to the store, buy clothes, and give them to him.
And that's all I'm saying. Give me a clue and I'll run with it. Just don't complain how I'm ruining your RP or outing your character when you've given me no reason to believe you are doing anything different from the hundred other times I've seen your character.
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Post by cloakedandhooded on Mar 1, 2008 17:10:19 GMT -5
I know how to turn floaty-names off, but that still does not solve the problem of there being no visual clue in game to the fact of a PC's disguise, or lack thereof. For this some means of communication is required. I can assume everone wearing a hood is in disguise, but my character has never seen Joseph without a hood. Should I not recognise him even though we've spent many hours RP'ing together in Isinhold? Should I assume Joseph without a hood is in disguise? While playing Nather, Edward did something I thought amazing. He came into Isinhold wearing vagabond rags. Instantly I assumed several things, the first of which was that Ed was disguised, because it's quite unusual to see Ed without his armor. Did I ask him to roll disguise? Did I call him Ed and say hateful things to the well known torturer? Did I call the guard and expose the known and wanted murderer/torturer? What I did was to have Nather go to the store, buy clothes, and give them to him. And that's all I'm saying. Give me a clue and I'll run with it. Just don't complain how I'm ruining your RP or outing your character when you've given me no reason to believe you are doing anything different from the hundred other times I've seen your character. Joseph has no face! But yes, if you see him without a mask, that's his disguise. (Or at least ask me OOC.) Joseph has a distinctive accent, and I do occasionally emote the exact positions of his gear so people can have a visual clue other than his flashy armor. (I have seen a few people with armor looking almost like his. Roguish looking sorts.) "Wha'? Ya mean ya cain' rec'nize me b' th' 'spression I got on m' face righ' now?" *has a black veil in his hood concealing his face*
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Mar 1, 2008 17:43:55 GMT -5
Um... to be realistic here.... since I try not to be a complete ass, I dont think my response would ever be: "Hey, you cant do that, im in disguise, and now you've ruined it!"
It would be: "Jake is in disguise." At which point you would -hopefully- say "Oops, ignore that" and all would be well.
Dont worry, I know you were just giving a "hypothetical" situation here, and as much as I like the whole "Im-a-total-jerk" response you've allocated to me there Brian, I do try to be a bit more polite and respectful than that to those players who accidently didnt notice im in a diguise. And im sure everyone else on the server tries to as well.
I cant send everyone a tell who comes within sight of me that I am disguised. And I could care less if someone accidently doesnt notice my disguise, a simple OOC reminder is all that is required, and frankly is good enough. Bone heads like that fella that got the boot are.. thankfully, a rare occurance. The worst thing I usually encounter when RPing disguises is those who don't fully uderstand what it means to fail a bluff vs spot/listen/wisdom, and most are easy enough to work with by chatting or refering here. So while the floaty names are a bummer and it would be nice if everyone got rid of them, honestly, I think just helping to spread the RP understanding of how this works by those in the know is more than sufficient.
By saying you have to pretend that everyone is in disguise before interacting with them is a very extreme and unneccesary standpoint. Its usually obvious when someone is in disguise, and if you really dont know, they will always shoot you a polite OOC reminder to clear the confusion. I dont think anyone wants to grab the pitchforks and torches over one simple case of mistaken identity. My recomendation is treat everyone as if they are -not- in disguise if they are not obviously disguised. If you're unsure.. send a tell to ask. Thats more than enough to keep game play smooth and fair.
Manshin
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Post by brian333 on Mar 1, 2008 20:27:52 GMT -5
Sorry to pick on you, Manshin, but you were a convienient target!
And you are right that I exaggerated, but the fact remains that under the current ruling, the onus of disguise falls upon the viewer, not the disguised person.
My point is that communication and understanding of the other guy's PoV is crucial when dealing with disguises, and any other opposed die-roll.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Mar 1, 2008 22:55:06 GMT -5
I agree
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Post by Munroe on Mar 2, 2008 1:28:01 GMT -5
I send people /tells all the time asking "Recognizeable?" and "Can I see his face?" or whatever because I don't remember what everyone's clothing looks like. They're all nearly identical avatars so I assume my character has better chances than I do at recognizing someone. (If I turned off floating names I would constantly be holding town tab to see who to talk to.)
If I don't see someone's face I do always assume disguise unless I really do know the armour, like Hoot's (old/new) armours or Padrin's armour. Vrulo's armour is pretty distinctive too, but he changed it a little recently so...I'd probably ask him. Some other folks too, there are some armours that are too gaudy to forget. (Not the ones I mentioned.) To me that's just the easier path. It also means I frequently walk around among lots of characters that my characters don't recognize because they're "not looking hard enough" and I'm assuming disguise and not bothering to ask because I don't have anything to say. It makes the world seem "bigger" if I don't recognize every guy with a sword (even if I might know them if I studied them).
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Post by Grozer on Mar 3, 2008 23:58:47 GMT -5
I dont... not fully anyway. To use the example above so Joseph always wears a hood... how is that distinguishable from the number of other hooded people in a crowd (assuming Joseph hasnt said a word)? While I have no problem emoting enough clues to let people know I am in disguise if I am standing there minding my own business hooded and not in normal garb it should be assumed, not to mention perhaps you walk up and I am too late to type something out. My biggest probem with no assumptions is once a name is blurted out, even if the person then says '//ooc ignore my mistake' it can create issues. I have been involved in three situations where lots of people were around and that happened... some of the players didnt hear the ignore part (because of that talking going on) and just assumed it was me... they each developed into ugy situations.
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Post by dmimmersion on Mar 4, 2008 0:35:25 GMT -5
the basic thing folks... is be courteous if you see someone in a hood - then send them a tell and ask them. We have stated time and again that it is not the person in disguise responsibility to be constantly emoting. It is the person that wants to spot the character responsibility to: 1) make sure they have enough reason to be able to call for the check 2) call for it That is the way it is on FRC and that is the way it is going to stay. I refer you to this topic that details the rolls ~ Use of Bluff ~To Detect Lie = Bluff vs. Bluff To Detect a Falsified Voice = Bluff (or Performance) vs. Listen To detect a disguise = Bluff vs. Spot A player calling for a bluff check needs to be able to provide a valid RP reason for the check. (What is causing you to have doubts?) A person simply walking by wearing a hood (no interaction) is not a valid reason to call for a bluff check. Depending on how well you know the "bluffer" players can agree on (or DM's may call for) additional modifiers (positive or negative) to the rolls. Simply knowing the "bluffer" does not give you automatic success....you would still need to have a valid RP reason to suspect them. And you would still need to make the rolls. Now, that said. let's say I just successfully made my spot vs. a players bluff roll to disguise his appearance. This does not mean that I automatically recognize who this person is. It merely indicates that I am certain they aren't who (or what) he or she is pretending to be. I would wait for the opposing player (or DM) to call for a roll before I made it....if you just spin a yarn and then roll a bluff check, then everyone knows on an OOC level that what you have just said is a lie an interpretation of truth.
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Post by EDM Neo on Mar 4, 2008 1:01:34 GMT -5
Just since all these rolls are being discussed anyway.
When is it appropriate to use a Persuade check?
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Mar 4, 2008 10:28:07 GMT -5
Just since all these rolls are being discussed anyway. When is it appropriate to use a Persuade check? When a DM asks you to. Other then that, I usually make it a rule of thumb that if my character isn't 100% sure of what you're trying to "sell", then I'll ask for a persuade roll. And by "sell" I mean more then just bartering. Also, to take an opposite stance on this, sometimes no matter how good the persuade roll is there are some things a character will never, ever do. So just rolling a persuade out of the blue to convince my character to do something -- especially after they've said "no" -- when I don't even ask for a persuade roll is going to be met again with another "no" no matter how good the roll is. My characters have their own code they follow and no matter how good your roll is, still isn't going to change it.
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Post by EDM Neo on Mar 4, 2008 11:43:08 GMT -5
I suppose I should expand a bit.
As most are aware, there are three "social skills," that your character can use to influence social situations, whether with NPCs, or with other PCs.
Bluff checks let you alter another PC's perceptions of your own by maintaining a disguise, making lies seem as truth, and so on, as has been discussed to death in this topic.
Intimidate checks, while not discussed quite as much, have a different role, but still function similarly - changing another PC's perceptions of your own through a roll, representing threatening body language, an imposing presence, and so on - things that can't always be roleplayed to their full extent. Of course, there's no saying just how each individual will respond to an intimidating threat, but most all will respond in some fashion.
And then finally, you have persuade checks. This is where things get tricky, because, as SCJ said, players won't (and shouldn't) change their characters or act completely opposed to how they normally would to follow some ridiculous request by someone with high persuade, regardless of roll.
But just what can persuade rolls do in influencing other PCs, and when is it acceptable to do such, if ever?
Bluff and intimidate are obvious, and have easily definable uses. Comparatively, I've played a character with high persuade for over a year now, and only once have I had a chance to make a persuade check against another PC (making an effort to stop a fight from occurring), and then only because it was asked for. I've never tried to make one other then that for fear of inadvertently imposing my will on other's characters, against their player's own, thus potentially detracting from said other player's fun.
Now, you can say that you shouldn't be relying on rolls like that at all for social interactions, but does this mean those ranks in persuade were all pointless? Why should it be acceptable to represent your character's skill at lying or coming off as intimidating by a dice roll, but not ability to be persuasive?
I'd be perfectly okay with it if it's just decided that the skill should be reserved for use against NPCs. I'd just like an explanation as to why persuade should be, but not bluff or intimidate.
And, huh, that ended up longer then I expected. Oh well, off to class.
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Post by SlothfulCat on Mar 4, 2008 13:01:09 GMT -5
Cant give you an answer for your question Neo, i toss persuade rolls now and then when I'm really trying to "sell" something to someone, but when you do it with PCs unless tehre is a DM overseeing it or you've made arrangements on an OOC level of what will occur... then your best bet is if you toss it out there in support of an argument your PC made is to simply do so with no expectations; no demands. You do it like that then it leaves it totally up to the other player on how to take it. I personally look at the RP and the number on the skill check more than a roll. If the reasoning and line of argument is decent I assume they took 10, if its great and their skill is high I'll consider it a 20... if its just "Hey thats kind of expensive dont you think? *persuade*" they get an autofail because thats not a persuade . I will say however, that most people seem to view intimidate-bluff as one shot deals, where as they seem to think persuade is a sort of mind control... which would explain the aversion to it.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Mar 4, 2008 13:45:32 GMT -5
Well, unfortunately Persuade in NWN apparently also covers Diplomacy. *le sigh* Skills are similar, but much different in implementation, IMO.
It's hard to pin down exactly when a person can and should use Persuade when it pertains to PC vs. PC. I can only really showcase how I'd handle it through examples.
Example 1: Bonny Bard decides to convince Stalwart Paladin to let the petty thief go with only a slap on the wrist. Bonny's argument (via roleplay) is convincing , but Stalwart isn't fully sure and neither is Stallwart's player. Stallwart's player asks Bonny's player to make a persuade roll to help him OOCly decide.
Example 2: Friendly Rogue has aims to pull a Robin Hood and steal from a Lord's manor in order to give the riches over to the orphanage he grew up in. Stalwart Paladin overhears and tries to ward Friendly Rogue away from stealing and convincing him of better ways to help the orphanage. Though compelling, Friendly Rogue's kleptomaniac ways is hard for him to ignore. Again, after an OOC talk Stalwart rolls his persuade vs. Friendly's will save.
Example 3: Saucy Sorceress wants to buy the nice shiny staff from Wise Wizard. Not having much coin in her purse and Wise hemming and hawing about the low price she's offering, she bats her eyelashes and tries to convince him that the price is good. After Wise OOCly asks for a Persuade roll she does so, only once, to help Wise decide if he goes for it or not.
Do note, though, that all of these examples are paired with a preamble of some good roleplay. Like in your example of stopping a fight, Persuade really shouldn't be rolled unless the other player isn't sure if his/her character is convinced.
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Post by EDM Neo on Mar 4, 2008 14:12:51 GMT -5
Well, unfortunately Persuade in NWN apparently also covers Diplomacy. *le sigh* Skills are similar, but much different in implementation, IMO. What's the difference between Persuade and Diplomacy that you allude to? I've always thought the terms more or less interchangable, that Persuade was just NWN's equivelent of PnP's Diplomacy.
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