Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Feb 22, 2008 17:30:55 GMT -5
Its a topic that's been beat into the ground, but I feel its relivant to discuss it again.
If somone comes up to you in disguise and you fail to beat his bluff check with the appropriate skill, (spot, listen, or will save) then please respect the fact that your character should NOT be suspicous.
Also, if you are out-bluffed, dont look for every little nit pick to roll some other check. If your character has no reason to be suspicoius, why would he/she/it be constantly trying to find any misplaced detail?
If I barley beat you with my bluff roll, (by 5 or less) I could see a bit of suspicion. But when I whomp you, that means my disguise is convincing and you have no reason to suspect.
But since some people I beat keep taking stabs at trying to see through my disguise and constanly meeting everything I say with suspicion and insults... it makes me think that the ranks I have put into Bluff are worthless, and that urks me a little.
If players had the power to ignore your dicipline skill when they used knock-down on you and ignore what you rolled, you wouldnt think that was very fair. Well.. ignoring the "personality" based skills is no differant than ignoring the "combat" based skills. So please consider that next time you loose a bluff check.
Using that little name above the head to base your interactions around IS meta gaming, and thats against the server rules.
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Post by EDM Entori on Feb 22, 2008 17:41:12 GMT -5
also when you have valid reason to ask for a bluff check don;t come back with the tell:
" I beleive in RP not skill roll's find out IC"
Skill Rolls are there for a reason its a part of roll play, just to back up the other side of manshin is saying here, I've had players refuse to roll for my checks.
to my opinion if your refusing a roll your admitting defeat, also if your in disguise/ sneaking Emote.. but back on track,
don't ignore requests to use those dice bags!
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Post by Teneas on Feb 22, 2008 18:00:13 GMT -5
also when you have valid reason to ask for a bluff check don;t come back with the tell: " I beleive in RP not skill roll's find out IC" Skill Rolls are there for a reason its a part of roll play, just to back up the other side of manshin is saying here, I've had players refuse to roll for my checks. to my opinion if your refusing a roll your admitting defeat, also if your in disguise/ sneaking Emote.. but back on track, don't ignore requests to use those dice bags! Here here....this game was made with dice rolls in mind. Even though FRC and NWN isn't big on them. Use them any damn way. I love the roll of the die...makes for interesting rp. And do not deny others a chance to actually rp that. If asked for a bluff check..use it please. It just helps the feel for everything.
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Myth
Old School
Retired FRC DM
The Myth
Posts: 686
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Post by Myth on Feb 22, 2008 18:18:05 GMT -5
While I love dice rolls in nwn PWs maybe more than most I have to point something out.
NWN skills are not always suitable and they don't really match what one could have in mind. Concentration e.g. is a STR based skill and as such it's a real leap to use it to see if someone can actually... well... concentrate.
Keeping that in mind, I will always react to skill checks but I won't force others to. I think the best way is to talk it with the other player and agree to something. One shouldn't ignore the fact that there are modifiers for circumstances.
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Post by Grozer on Feb 22, 2008 18:25:33 GMT -5
also when you have valid reason to ask for a bluff check don;t come back with the tell: " I beleive in RP not skill roll's find out IC" Skill Rolls are there for a reason its a part of roll play, just to back up the other side of manshin is saying here, I've had players refuse to roll for my checks. to my opinion if your refusing a roll your admitting defeat, also if your in disguise/ sneaking Emote.. but back on track, don't ignore requests to use those dice bags! Agreed, but at the same time it goes without saying that there needs to be some basis for requesting the check. Just because you as a player think/know something is up is NOT fair premise to ask another player to make a bluff check. In a simple example just because we pass each other on the road and character A is completely disguised does not give character B valid justification to request a bluff check even if character B is intimately familar with character A.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Feb 22, 2008 19:59:59 GMT -5
While I love dice rolls in nwn PWs maybe more than most I have to point something out. NWN skills are not always suitable and they don't really match what one could have in mind. Concentration e.g. is a STR based skill and as such it's a real leap to use it to see if someone can actually... well... concentrate. Keeping that in mind, I will always react to skill checks but I won't force others to. I think the best way is to talk it with the other player and agree to something. One shouldn't ignore the fact that there are modifiers for circumstances. Concentration is a CON based skill, in both PnP and NWN as far as I know, and it's usually used to see if someone can concentrate under the pressure of sustaining damage, or some other very physical distraction.
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Post by ancientempathy on Feb 22, 2008 20:20:28 GMT -5
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Post by EDM Entori on Feb 22, 2008 20:41:16 GMT -5
also when you have valid reason to ask for a bluff check don;t come back with the tell: " I beleive in RP not skill roll's find out IC" Skill Rolls are there for a reason its a part of roll play, just to back up the other side of manshin is saying here, I've had players refuse to roll for my checks. to my opinion if your refusing a roll your admitting defeat, also if your in disguise/ sneaking Emote.. but back on track, don't ignore requests to use those dice bags! Agreed, but at the same time it goes without saying that there needs to be some basis for requesting the check. Just because you as a player think/know something is up is NOT fair premise to ask another player to make a bluff check. In a simple example just because we pass each other on the road and character A is completely disguised does not give character B valid justification to request a bluff check even if character B is intimately familar with character A. Agreed there has to be Rp bounds of being suspicious, within non biased tolerances, but there can also be Rp reasons for a character to be overly suspicious so to this I would explain why I wish said check
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2008 11:35:37 GMT -5
Want to throw something else in here, i have walked into towns many a time in disguise and not said anything or done anything apart from lean against a wall, but yet most people in the town clam up, or instantly start treating me with suspicion even though they have no real reason to know who it is. And this isn't just paranois, there have been times when i have walked into a town, leant against a wall, and everyone clams up, then i recieve tells saying wow, it is amazing how quickly everyone shuts up even thoguh you are in disguise...alright, rant over, my point is this...give consideration...jsut because the floatign name says who it is does not mean you would know IC.
~Sioladuil
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Post by Grozer on Feb 23, 2008 13:22:56 GMT -5
Want to throw something else in here, i have walked into towns many a time in disguise and not said anything or done anything apart from lean against a wall, but yet most people in the town clam up, or instantly start treating me with suspicion even though they have no real reason to know who it is. And this isn't just paranois, there have been times when i have walked into a town, leant against a wall, and everyone clams up, then i recieve tells saying wow, it is amazing how quickly everyone shuts up even thoguh you are in disguise...alright, rant over, my point is this...give consideration...jsut because the floatign name says who it is does not mean you would know IC. Heh take it as a compliment.. I'm teasing of course, but seriously happens to Ranan as well all the time. Hell I recall even getting a tell from Helgrin once saying something to the effect, amazing how people start whispering or move the conversation to a room when you are around. Worse part is cant use the excuse that a 'stranger' all of a sudden walked up since it was the middle of Suzail near all the merchants and all of a sudden people decided instead of having an open conversation to move it inside the tavern and get a room.
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Post by ancientempathy on Feb 23, 2008 13:27:51 GMT -5
Here is a link that talks about how a player can disable floating names www.frc.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=ideasandsuggestions&action=display&thread=1110516785Here is the quote incase you're too lazy to click on the link To disable the hovering names Go to the Options menu, select Game Options, then Feedback Options, and uncheck the 'show mouse over feedback' box. This disables all the hovering names, but still allows conversations to float up for easy reading. You can still hover the mouse over an object or person and hit tab to reveal the title/name of that particular object or person, but the rest of the screen will remain name free, allowing the beauty and detail of the server to shine through that much more! This information is posted in the Roleplay Discussion under the Disguise Thread, but who'd think to look for it there? Hopefully that can help some new players out, giving them a new idea. Or remind older players too, even. Enjoy it =)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2008 14:22:51 GMT -5
Was in Isinhold with me, so this excuse could not of been used either as people always have loud covnersations there whiel sourounded by people they don't know *Shrugs*
~Sioladuil
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Post by SlothfulCat on Feb 24, 2008 3:43:15 GMT -5
Want to throw something else in here, i have walked into towns many a time in disguise and not said anything or done anything apart from lean against a wall, but yet most people in the town clam up, or instantly start treating me with suspicion even though they have no real reason to know who it is. And this isn't just paranois, there have been times when i have walked into a town, leant against a wall, and everyone clams up, then i recieve tells saying wow, it is amazing how quickly everyone shuts up even thoguh you are in disguise...alright, rant over, my point is this...give consideration...jsut because the floatign name says who it is does not mean you would know IC. ~Sioladuil If you don't bother to emote you're in disguise... then its pretty safe to assume you took a natural one... unless its a known practice of the PC. Veshal for example folks would just assume was in disguise because of months of him emoting "*deep rough voice*" infront of everything he said. Elve isnt known for being slick.... so folks probably aren't assuming he's in disguise... particularly if its something he's typically seen in but in a different color.... Refer to neo's screenshots for a look at what passes for a disguise with aria
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Feb 24, 2008 3:54:28 GMT -5
Want to throw something else in here, i have walked into towns many a time in disguise and not said anything or done anything apart from lean against a wall, but yet most people in the town clam up, or instantly start treating me with suspicion even though they have no real reason to know who it is. And this isn't just paranois, there have been times when i have walked into a town, leant against a wall, and everyone clams up, then i recieve tells saying wow, it is amazing how quickly everyone shuts up even thoguh you are in disguise...alright, rant over, my point is this...give consideration...jsut because the floatign name says who it is does not mean you would know IC. ~Sioladuil If you don't bother to emote you're in disguise... then its pretty safe to assume you took a natural one... unless its a known practice of the PC. Veshal for example folks would just assume was in disguise because of months of him emoting "*deep rough voice*" infront of everything he said. Elve isnt known for being slick.... so folks probably aren't assuming he's in disguise... particularly if its something he's typically seen in but in a different color.... Refer to neo's screenshots for a look at what passes for a disguise with aria *shrug* You can be disguised with an illusion ring, and even if no one trusights you out, everyone in the area will still go as silent as death the moment you arrive. That's of coarse, if they don't start swilling down truesight potions like town drunks the moment you arrive and lynch you.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Feb 24, 2008 3:57:53 GMT -5
On a seperate note, the best disguise I -ever- saw was Zaks Noob disguise. I still remember sitting here cracking up at him jogging around in a helmet with a scimitar in his hand. Bloody priceless!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2008 7:03:22 GMT -5
Thats a good point, but the times i am referring to i have actually emoted the disguise / change of voice etc etc. and this pretty much happens
Which brings me to another point, there have been times when i have been stalking another PC, they have entered a building or something else which gives the same kind of privacy, i have entered after them, and then suddenly nearly everyone in the area decides to go and check on them., even though the disguise was emoted etc, etc.
~Sioladuil
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Post by Aodhan the Unusual on Feb 24, 2008 8:15:43 GMT -5
Unfortunately, it happens to a lot of people, actually. One of the biggest reasons is curiosity. What's going on? Who was that? What are they going to do? How are they going to do it? etc. etc. I know when I get hit with these questions, I try to either stay where I am and chat with people or wander off elsewhere. Sure I'd like to be in the middle of it all and find out, but it breaks the scene, destroys what may be the only moment for this to happen, and can possibly ruin future RP.
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Post by Grozer on Feb 24, 2008 11:39:36 GMT -5
Want to throw something else in here, i have walked into towns many a time in disguise and not said anything or done anything apart from lean against a wall, but yet most people in the town clam up, or instantly start treating me with suspicion even though they have no real reason to know who it is. And this isn't just paranois, there have been times when i have walked into a town, leant against a wall, and everyone clams up, then i recieve tells saying wow, it is amazing how quickly everyone shuts up even thoguh you are in disguise...alright, rant over, my point is this...give consideration...jsut because the floatign name says who it is does not mean you would know IC. ~Sioladuil If you don't bother to emote you're in disguise... then its pretty safe to assume you took a natural one... unless its a known practice of the PC. If you have never seen the PC in her current state then the presumtion of disguise should be used as a starting point. OR -you- can send a tell to be certain. A new character that -happens- across a yugoloth the first time isnt going to say "hey there is a yugoloth." Alright fine its an extreme example but the same concept applies... If your character has never seen a PC before, in a particular look and their face (and other distinguishing marks) are not visible then they are disguised whether they emote *in disguise* or not. Just because they dont emote it, doesnt mean anyone can fall back on the floating name above their head. The second I walk around emoting *in disguise* or *speaks in a raspy thick accent* I get tells.... bluff check. Why? What reason do you have to automatically force a check? "That" is a major reason I dont heavily use those emotes.... if a new PC walked into Isinhold and made the same emote to emphasis his/her voice you wouldnt ask the same check. The more you emote disguise the more you invite 'unsubstantiated' checks. Again think about if any new person was around emoting their thickly accented voice.... would you automatically ask for a DC? Or is that because when a villian does it you know the person is using a disguise OOC. Granted if the person speaks for a few moments AND you have some decent familarity with their voice you might have the basis to ask for a bluff check. No, the presumption should be made the person is in disguse and if you are unsure ask them via tell. By the way, thank you to those that have sent that tell of late. Ranan has been traveling alot in disguise these days for obvious reasons and I appreciate the tell early on to clarify if there is uncertainity.
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Post by EDM Entori on Feb 24, 2008 15:16:51 GMT -5
If you don't bother to emote you're in disguise... then its pretty safe to assume you took a natural one... unless its a known practice of the PC. If you have never seen the PC in her current state then the presumtion of disguise should be used as a starting point. OR -you- can send a tell to be certain. A new character that -happens- across a yugoloth the first time isnt going to say "hey there is a yugoloth." Alright fine its an extreme example but the same concept applies... If your character has never seen a PC before, in a particular look and their face (and other distinguishing marks) are not visible then they are disguised whether they emote *in disguise* or not. Just because they dont emote it, doesnt mean anyone can fall back on the floating name above their head. The second I walk around emoting *in disguise* or *speaks in a raspy thick accent* I get tells.... bluff check. Why? What reason do you have to automatically force a check? "That" is a major reason I dont heavily use those emotes.... if a new PC walked into Isinhold and made the same emote to emphasis his/her voice you wouldnt ask the same check. The more you emote disguise the more you invite 'unsubstantiated' checks. Again think about if any new person was around emoting their thickly accented voice.... would you automatically ask for a DC? Or is that because when a villian does it you know the person is using a disguise OOC. Granted if the person speaks for a few moments AND you have some decent familarity with their voice you might have the basis to ask for a bluff check. No, the presumption should be made the person is in disguse and if you are unsure ask them via tell. By the way, thank you to those that have sent that tell of late. Ranan has been traveling alot in disguise these days for obvious reasons and I appreciate the tell early on to clarify if there is uncertainity. I was under the presumption, that if a character does not have the trait of a raspy voice as a normal character trait (such as mouses quiet voice) then when you emote a raspy voice, you are bluffing/performing that raspy voice, that needs to be beleived. Your character from not having that trait must need to be good enough not be noticed hes faking it. Thus if you walk into town masked and hooded (which I call suspicious) emoting a raspy voice, you should roll a local bluff check once. everyone else should roll bluff too, just privately. Then you take it from there, in tells did you match or exceed bluffing characters? by how much, would you know its him, or just think something is 'fishy' what is the disguised pc trying to accomplish, can you some way add to the Rp without ruining his? thats how I see it. As for disguises, to me thats a preform check, or craft armor, how well did you design the disguise, vs spot. Is the disguise noticeably a disguise or a crappy job?. Does the character not match the disguise? All questions one needs to ask himself, and the other player and players need to be honest with each other. But to my opinion every time your character lies, there should be a bluff check, just to see that hes noticeably lying through his teeth. But thats just have I've seen and viewed others use the system, if it conflicts with others sense well thats something we can work out IG, or correct me here, I'm open to new ideas!.. anyways this is turning into a useful debate, I granted understand both sides, but truly I think it really only needs to be figured out in tells just so no one feels smudged. good debate! Ent
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2008 15:38:36 GMT -5
I don't think talking with a different style of voice requires a bluff roll, unless disguised person is trying to impersonate another person. Simply because most people can talk with different style of voice fairly easily...
Then you must be suspicious of alot of the people who play here. Most characters i see are hooded / masked. And if the characters face cannot be seen then a bluff should not be expected as the audience have no idea who they are talking to...
Again, spot / search / listen should only be rolled if your character has a real reason to. Because if you are not looking for something specifically, there is less chance you would notice it. And how can a disguise be noticably a disguise? Well, unless Ranan is wearing black rimmed glasses with a fake mustache connected to them...
I do agree that it can be resolved VIA tells though. Tells really do clear up alot of would be mis-haps.
~Sioladuil
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Feb 24, 2008 15:40:30 GMT -5
If you have never seen the PC in her current state then the presumtion of disguise should be used as a starting point. OR -you- can send a tell to be certain. A new character that -happens- across a yugoloth the first time isnt going to say "hey there is a yugoloth." Alright fine its an extreme example but the same concept applies... If your character has never seen a PC before, in a particular look and their face (and other distinguishing marks) are not visible then they are disguised whether they emote *in disguise* or not. Just because they dont emote it, doesnt mean anyone can fall back on the floating name above their head. The second I walk around emoting *in disguise* or *speaks in a raspy thick accent* I get tells.... bluff check. Why? What reason do you have to automatically force a check? "That" is a major reason I dont heavily use those emotes.... if a new PC walked into Isinhold and made the same emote to emphasis his/her voice you wouldnt ask the same check. The more you emote disguise the more you invite 'unsubstantiated' checks. Again think about if any new person was around emoting their thickly accented voice.... would you automatically ask for a DC? Or is that because when a villian does it you know the person is using a disguise OOC. Granted if the person speaks for a few moments AND you have some decent familarity with their voice you might have the basis to ask for a bluff check. No, the presumption should be made the person is in disguse and if you are unsure ask them via tell. By the way, thank you to those that have sent that tell of late. Ranan has been traveling alot in disguise these days for obvious reasons and I appreciate the tell early on to clarify if there is uncertainity. I was under the presumption, that if a character does not have the trait of a raspy voice as a normal character trait (such as mouses quiet voice) then when you emote a raspy voice, you are bluffing/performing that raspy voice, that needs to be beleived. Your character from not having that trait must need to be good enough not be noticed hes faking it. Thus if you walk into town masked and hooded (which I call suspicious) emoting a raspy voice, you should roll a local bluff check once. everyone else should roll bluff too, just privately. Then you take it from there, in tells did you match or exceed bluffing characters? by how much, would you know its him, or just think something is 'fishy' what is the disguised pc trying to accomplish, can you some way add to the Rp without ruining his? thats how I see it. As for disguises, to me thats a preform check, or craft armor, how well did you design the disguise, vs spot. Is the disguise noticeably a disguise or a crappy job?. Does the character not match the disguise? All questions one needs to ask himself, and the other player and players need to be honest with each other. But to my opinion every time your character lies, there should be a bluff check, just to see that hes noticeably lying through his teeth. But thats just have I've seen and viewed others use the system, if it conflicts with others sense well thats something we can work out IG, or correct me here, I'm open to new ideas!.. anyways this is turning into a useful debate, I granted understand both sides, but truly I think it really only needs to be figured out in tells just so no one feels smudged. good debate! Ent Actually, perform would only be used to pull of extremely advanced disguises, where they come complete with a totally new persona (i.e. acting). Disguise is a skill that exists in PnP, yet not in NwN www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htmPerform is an exclusive skill in NwN, only bards can actually put points in it, so bluff would be the way to go since it is more of a fair playing field as anyone can cross class into it i think. Taking someone to task to pull of a disguise every time they speak or do anything isn't really very condusive to 'Having fun, but not at another's expense' in my opinion. Sometimes evil/wanted characters feel the need to interact with people other than the NPCs in whatever forsaken corner of the server they happen to be hiding in. It also contributes to the cycle of PvP to root out everyone who wears a disguise ruthlessly.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Feb 24, 2008 16:39:47 GMT -5
One other thing to remember about towns and villages is that there are supposed to be people around. The engine doesnt support us to put ALL the NPCs that SHOULD be in town there. So when a hooded disguised person walks through town, even though I always hear someone say: "I wonder whats with that guy" in a suspicious manner, realistically he would be only one of many strangers, often hooded, walking about on a given day. Especially in the cities like Suzail and Redmist where populations are over 100,000
Because of this, a person in a disguise shouldnt have to roll checks unless they are specfically interacting with someone. The fact is, in a town, there are too many passers by for PCs to note every single hooded person who crosses the road and wonder... "hmm... I wonder if thats Ranan wearing a hood? I better check"... or "Look at that Ilmateri monk.. even though his bluff check beat my listen check soundly, I suddenly dont trust anyone, especially small unarmed people in hoods who I have just witnessed heal complete strangers for free and obvioulsy understand how Ilmateri work perfectly convincingly... dispite that the world is crawling in halflings, includeing the halfing townsfok, Ill bet it's that Jake Jarcy guy!!! I better force him to roll six more check for every little detail that COULD be suspicious and then demand to know where JAKE was when the Ilamteri monk was outside. Finally, if one of my multitude of checks beat his, then I will instantly know who he is dispite that when I lost the check I refused to RP that my character had been convinced that the Ilmateri monk was legit and treat him appropriatly." er... end rant.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Feb 24, 2008 16:50:25 GMT -5
I think it's also worth pointing out that in the disguise skill description from PnP, walking past someone or walking up and leaning against a wall is not enough to call for a spot check. I don't believe that speaking to someone across the road from someone who is taking it upon themselves to be suspicious is enough reason for one either, since there are assumed to be many people speaking around town all the time. Simply speaking is a fairly common act and wouldn't necessarily count as 'drawing attention to yourself', especially in a public area where there are assumed to be many people speaking within earshot of the suspicious party. As always, we can try to emulate PnP by substituting skills that aren't meant to fill a role, but we will never get it 100% right.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Feb 24, 2008 16:55:47 GMT -5
One other thing to remember about towns and villages is that there are supposed to be people around. The engine doesnt support us to put ALL the NPCs that SHOULD be in town there. So when a hooded disguised person walks through town, even though I always hear someone say: "I wonder whats with that guy" in a suspicious manner, realistically he would be only one of many strangers, often hooded, walking about on a given day. Especially in the cities like Suzail and Redmist where populations are over 100,000 Because of this, a person in a disguise shouldnt have to roll checks unless they are specfically interacting with someone. The fact is, in a town, there are too many passers by for PCs to note every single hooded person who crosses the road and wonder... "hmm... I wonder if thats Ranan wearing a hood? I better check"... or "Look at that Ilmateri monk.. even though his bluff check beat my listen check soundly, I suddenly dont trust anyone, especially small unarmed people in hoods who I have just witnessed heal complete strangers for free and obvioulsy understand how Ilmateri work perfectly convincingly... dispite that the world is crawling in halflings, includeing the halfing townsfok, Ill bet it's that Jake Jarcy guy!!! I better force him to roll six more check for every little detail that COULD be suspicious and then demand to know where JAKE was when the Ilamteri monk was outside. Finally, if one of my multitude of checks beat his, then I will instantly know who he is dispite that when I lost the check I refused to RP that my character had been convinced that the Ilmateri monk was legit and treat him appropriatly." er... end rant. Jake does a prety good impersonation of Sunite Monks as well...where was he when I saw that Logan guy? If he had an epic disguise check he could have increased his height by up to 50%!
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Post by Grozer on Feb 24, 2008 17:03:20 GMT -5
I was under the presumption, that if a character does not have the trait of a raspy voice as a normal character trait (such as mouses quiet voice) then when you emote a raspy voice, you are bluffing/performing that raspy voice, that needs to be beleived. Your character from not having that trait must need to be good enough not be noticed hes faking it. Thus if you walk into town masked and hooded (which I call suspicious) emoting a raspy voice, you should roll a local bluff check once. Perhaps I wasnt that clear, when I am having Ranan use these fake voices, I do not emote 'every line' of text but this does not necessarily mean he has switched. If you walk up in the middle of the coversations and happen to hear one of the lines where I didnt emote the cover voice then dont assume I am talking normally, especially if the character is not wearing his standard garb, is hooded and covered up. Otherwise yes you have to emote the voice change. Does that help clarify? Side question, since a hood is suspicious should we be suspicious of Entori when he walks into town wearing his hood? Hood does not denote being suspicious anymore than wearing black means evil. everyone else should roll bluff too, just privately. Then you take it from there, in tells did you match or exceed bluffing characters? by how much, would you know its him, or just think something is 'fishy' what is the disguised pc trying to accomplish, can you some way add to the Rp without ruining his? Sorry I just dont see why you would automatically roll a private bluff the first time you hear the voice unless its because you see the floaty name above the PC's head. At face value with eyes closed you hear a voice period there is no reason to consider if the person is faking it. Perhaps after a while and assuming you know the person who is acting such, then you might think something is fishy. Again I will use the example of a new PC coming to Isinhold and emoting an accent or something... do you ask him for a bluff check? thats how I see it. As for disguises, to me thats a preform check, or craft armor, how well did you design the disguise, vs spot. Is the disguise noticeably a disguise or a crappy job?. Does the character not match the disguise? Craft armor is how well you make the outfit, but at the time you are using the disguise you arent making anything, its done. At the time of interaction, its how well you are putting everything together... your logic... body language... voice... everything. Beside this character bluffing may not even have made the outfit why would they roll a craft check? All questions one needs to ask himself, and the other player and players need to be honest with each other. But to my opinion every time your character lies, there should be a bluff check, just to see that hes noticeably lying through his teeth. Logically the only way you would know he is lying through his teeth is if you have something to base it on, you need a reference point which is why a bluff check is made in certain circumstances. Edit for horrible typing...
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Post by EDM Entori on Feb 24, 2008 20:46:18 GMT -5
I was under the presumption, that if a character does not have the trait of a raspy voice as a normal character trait (such as mouses quiet voice) then when you emote a raspy voice, you are bluffing/performing that raspy voice, that needs to be beleived. Your character from not having that trait must need to be good enough not be noticed hes faking it. Thus if you walk into town masked and hooded (which I call suspicious) emoting a raspy voice, you should roll a local bluff check once. Perhaps I wasnt that clear, when I am having Ranan use these fake voices, I do not emote 'every line' of text but this does not necessarily mean he has switched. If you walk up in the middle of the coversations and happen to hear one of the lines where I didnt emote the cover voice then dont assume I am talking normally, especially if the character is not wearing his standard garb, is hooded and covered up. Otherwise yes you have to emote the voice change. Does that help clarify? Side question, since a hood is suspicious should we be suspicious of Entori when he walks into town wearing his hood? Hood does not denote being suspicious anymore than wearing black means evil. Sorry I just dont see why you would automatically roll a private bluff the first time you hear the voice unless its because you see the floaty name above the PC's head. At face value with eyes closed you hear a voice period there is no reason to consider if the person is faking it. Perhaps after a while and assuming you know the person who is acting such, then you might think something is fishy. Again I will use the example of a new PC coming to Isinhold and emoting an accent or something... do you ask him for a bluff check? Craft armor is how well you make the outfit, but at the time you are using the disguise you arent making anything, its done. At the time of interaction, its how well you are putting everything together... your logic... body language... voice... everything. Beside this character bluffing may not even have made the outfit why would they roll a craft check? All questions one needs to ask himself, and the other player and players need to be honest with each other. But to my opinion every time your character lies, there should be a bluff check, just to see that hes noticeably lying through his teeth. Logically the only way you would know he is lying through his teeth is if you have something to base it on, you need a reference point which is why a bluff check is made in certain circumstances. Edit for horrible typing... ok.. well lets put it this way.. Have you ever seen someone try to act who's just too honest. I'm from Atlantic Canada. Man if I tried to act like I'm from jersey or Manhattan you would know I was lying. my point is the disguise has to be believed, you have to be good at acting disguised in order to do this. I mean to me I think this method would work a lot better cause yes everyone would know your A in disguise oocly and it would help elminated who would respond. and yes there has to be some familiarity to it. But lets be specific, Entori has seen and heard Rannan. His height weight, voice, his charismatic nature. you change a few colors and wear a different set of cloths its not going to do much to convince me its not Rannan thus I want a bluff check. Why? well its rannan, and not cause the floaty name says so, because someone about his height and weight entered into town and is speaking, now say that person (forget rannan could be anyone, for argument sake lets say I don't know who it is) has his hood up on a bright beautiful day AND has a mask, so hes hiding something, then lest say someone asks why hes got his hood up. I've heard retorts along the lines of "o my face was marred with acid" I mean to me.. THATS suspicious! I agree if the characters have never been together before a guy can't just say Hey thats person X. But if the person is acting oddly they could see that, you can tell someone is lying without knowing them. key example poker. if ent walks into town with his hood up,A he was traveling and it hasn't come down yet, b its night and its chillin/ C its raining. There are practical reasons for having a hood up, if those don't exist, my hoods down, there are characters who have their hoods up all the time, but I think thats unrealistic and think that if their hoods up like that, you can see their face. Now lets not start saying you evil for having your hood up, but just that you got something to hide. if you walk into a corner store anywhere on a 30C day, with a hoodie on and your hood up and mozy on to the back of the store, and then leave that clerks going to wonder what you were doing. That applies, if you walk into isinhold hooded and masked on a bright sunny day. To mean thats not different then using your sneak in the middle of the street. if you have nothing to hide in, you have nothing to hide. If you can't pull off the act of being disguised, well that sucks. dictonary.com = bluff to mislead by a display of strength, self-confidence, or the like lie a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood. nwn wiki- bluff The character can make the outrageous or the untrue seem plausible. The skill encompasses acting, conning, fast talking, misdirection and misleading body language Now if what your saying above is true Anyone can walk into town disguised and no one would tell, even someone with 0 bluff. This I disagree with if you have 0 bluff your are horrible at "acting, conning, fast talking, misdirection and misleading body language"Your skill rolls shows everyone here you got the skill to be disguised, if you don't got it, or don't show it then well, we know your trying to mislead us at the least. Thats my opinion
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Post by EDM Entori on Feb 24, 2008 20:53:45 GMT -5
One other thing to remember about towns and villages is that there are supposed to be people around. The engine doesnt support us to put ALL the NPCs that SHOULD be in town there. So when a hooded disguised person walks through town, even though I always hear someone say: "I wonder whats with that guy" in a suspicious manner, realistically he would be only one of many strangers, often hooded, walking about on a given day. Especially in the cities like Suzail and Redmist where populations are over 100,000 Because of this, a person in a disguise shouldnt have to roll checks unless they are specfically interacting with someone. The fact is, in a town, there are too many passers by for PCs to note every single hooded person who crosses the road and wonder... "hmm... I wonder if thats Ranan wearing a hood? I better check"... or "Look at that Ilmateri monk.. even though his bluff check beat my listen check soundly, I suddenly dont trust anyone, especially small unarmed people in hoods who I have just witnessed heal complete strangers for free and obvioulsy understand how Ilmateri work perfectly convincingly... dispite that the world is crawling in halflings, includeing the halfing townsfok, Ill bet it's that Jake Jarcy guy!!! I better force him to roll six more check for every little detail that COULD be suspicious and then demand to know where JAKE was when the Ilamteri monk was outside. Finally, if one of my multitude of checks beat his, then I will instantly know who he is dispite that when I lost the check I refused to RP that my character had been convinced that the Ilmateri monk was legit and treat him appropriatly." er... end rant. I think if you make a roll without Really really obvious reason to roll again a player should just leave it, youonly got one shot at spell Dc's then you should only get 1 shot at bluff DC's without good reason. Secondly in my opinion if you beat the roll 1 you know hes misleading or trying to pull the wool over your eyes. I mean it could lead to long lengthy process to go HEY that is person X. but am I right in saying that one checks not enough?! to distinguish a person. and that should be discussed before the interaction has started?
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Post by Grozer on Feb 24, 2008 20:59:22 GMT -5
No that is not what I am saying at all... I never once said anyone can get away with it.. my issue is the auto presumption that people seem to have that something is up, that before a word is uttered a skill check is requested. I have no problem rolling a check when appropriate... and I assure you Ranan has points in bluff.
Secondly you cant compare modern day to the feudal era or this fantasy era. I agree a hoodie in a store might catch someone's eye... but in this world hoods are common.
I wont even touch the reference to height and weight since I suppose there is no one else around that is even close to Ranan's structure so I am sure he stands out in a crowd.
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Post by SlothfulCat on Feb 24, 2008 21:07:04 GMT -5
Which is where what I said came in... a hasty wording the first time around.... if we have no reason to believe you are in disguise other than a different color for your clothing and a hood up... well I recognize Zaebros without that floaty name, I recognize logan without that floaty name, Sharita Dornak Kyrion Griminir etc etc etc.... you can look at someone at say hey! I know that guy...
So if you're a familiar aquantince... and are trying to be disguised... and are actively interacting with the people who know you.... and you refuse a requested bluff check... again, I'm tossing my assumption of a natural one. Why? Its because people aren't stupid... If Aria looks at torgeir in a robe... she's still going to pick up on a 7foot giant with a huge greatsword and think "Torgeir" face visible or no.
Thats what your bluff is about... if you roll a 1 +1 = 2... well your face might be hidden but the underwear with your name on it is sticking up out of your pack... similar if you roll a 1+20, well... maybe you're carrying your favorite dagger on your belt in its trusty old sheath and someone with the eyes and knowledge to notice got ya. Where as the complete stranger missed it (after all no matter if they have 30spot or 3 if they dont knwo you they can't recognize you!)
That said usually when folks emote looking into my hood I just simply emote *hood frames her face leaving it for all to see* Why? Aria's from Amn... shes generally cold and is keeping her ears warm.
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Post by EDM Entori on Feb 24, 2008 22:58:37 GMT -5
No that is not what I am saying at all... I never once said anyone can get away with it.. my issue is the auto presumption that people seem to have that something is up, that before a word is uttered a skill check is requested. I have no problem rolling a check when appropriate... and I assure you Ranan has points in bluff. Secondly you cant compare modern day to the feudal era or this fantasy era. I agree a hoodie in a store might catch someone's eye... but in this world hoods are common. I wont even touch the reference to height and weight since I suppose there is no one else around that is even close to Ranan's structure so I am sure he stands out in a crowd. and just to clarify myself there grozer, it wasn't a crack at you or rannans character it could be for anyone, hence why I changed over to my person X theory
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