Stealth and Detection

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

Being a long time stealthy character, and having several discussions with various people, I have decided to mend my ways.

Stealth is oft an abused skill in NWN because of the ability to sneak right before a persons eyes. In this discussion, I will most often be referring to situations with PC to PC interaction.

First, in order to remain hidden, you must have cover of some sort. Furniture, nooks and crannies, trees, tall grass, and various other instances. I am guilty of the infamous sneaking in open spaces area. However, like i said above, i am trying to better my rp by remaining under some sort of cover.

Second, if following someone, or sneaking up on them, always approach from out of line of sight. If their character does turn around and you are not under cover, you should pop yourself out of stealth mode. Sure it might put you in an awkward, if not deadly situation, but at least you'll have the surprise factor on them . Now with the NWN controls system and lag, it is often hard to determine whether or not the person intended to turn around. Give them a second, and if they emote searching, then you should pop yourself out of stealth. This will be discussed a little later.

Emote what you are doing. I know this might clue the character you are following in on things because their head may twist around to look at you, but it will help anyone else watching you understand what is going on.

Now for detection.

Indicators. It is always good to show indicators of what your character is doing. Let's say you spotted someone behind a tree. This may mean that your character noticed a branch moving or an odd shadow falling out of place. Your characters facial features or movements are good things to describe. *Moves in to investigate* or *squints at tree* are good ones. This gives the stealther a chance to respond to the situation. They can then emote to you what they are doing. Say they are in tall grass. Perhaps they are laying on their belly. However, stealthers should not take this opportunity to metagame being spotted and drink a potion of invis, because they dont really know if they have been spotted. However, if a character moves towards their position it might safe to say that a paranoid character would assume they were spotted.

Listening will also give you some rights to investigate situations. Branches breaking, scuffling of feet, these situations happen to the best of sneakers. In most situations, listening is more helpful. If you are on the other side of a wall, you are likely to hear someone, and VERY unlikely to see them.

And I have one last thing to add about True Seeing (my best friend ) True Seeing may automatically allow you as a player to detect every hidden thing on the screen, but even if it we take it as the way NWN plays it, it is True Seeing, not True listening. Now this is open for some debate, but I would like to pose at least a few scenarios that I do not think true seeing should work in.

If I am standing behind you, with a house between us, and I am not moving, then I do NOT think true seeing should detect me. It is not X-Ray vision.

If I am on a floor below you, hidden behind or under some object, and you have no way of getting line of sight, I do NOT think true seeing should detect.

If i am standing behind a tree off to your right and you cast it, i think you could detect me, but perhaps approach it as I stated above.

If you cast it, and I appear right in front of your face, well then you have every right to start swinging .

However, I will play it however the other PC wishes to handle it, as i know that True Seeing is sometimes the only way people can detect a person, and I am not going to force anyone to do anything they dont want to do.

The reason I bring this topic up is that if I am going to try to adhere to the guidelines as stated above, I will be putting myself at a slight disadvantage due to the NWN engine. However, I know sometimes it is ok to "lose" and i hope others realize this as well.

Oh and for those pesky npcs, i dont care how you sneak up on them. But if you are dealing with a dm, you may want to be careful . I know of one that has threatened to start popping me out of stealth.

[marklar]

so this kinda reminds me oh this one time this guy was trying to follow me, as i walked i saw him trying to be stealthed right next to a building with a street light. i pointed him out IC and said the reason i could see him is because he was under a street lamp. just wanted to add that if your hanging out in stealth mode under a lamp or near a light to get out of it.

i'm not sure about what you said about going out of stealth when your following a person. i think if your a fair distance away at night (like one would in RL, your njot going to be 2 feet away from someone and sneak around) you don't have to BUT in the day or if you are close you should get out of it.

[Driderman]

Very good post, although I'm not quite sure I follow the idea of the stealthed character emoting. Since it will only be seen by people who've detected, as far as I know
So either you're emoting to yourself or the character you're following has already spotted you and you might as well rp it instead of using stealth mode ;D

[hexer]

He was talking about the person being stalked emoting. If they think they're being followed, its nice to give a hint, such as the "*squints at the tree*"

[Driderman]

quadhund said:

Emote what you are doing. I know this might clue the character you are following in on things because their head may twist around to look at you, but it will help anyone else watching you understand what is going on.

He was also talking about the character stalking

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

Yes, but i meant more or less for dms ...

[Driderman]

Good point. I'll still feel like a moron doing it though

[marklar]

driderman said:

Good point. I'll still feel like a moron doing it though

LOL yeah, it does make you feel like your letting them know what's going on too much but hey, i do it often and not had an issue yet.

[Aodhan the Unusual]

Not really. While in stealth, you may not be detected, but if someone emotes the looking by the tree thing, you can send them a tell to let them know what's going on.

[Grozer]

So Quad... lets assume just for example that some random PC chose to allow said sneaker to tag along for whatever reason (no harm intended of course) after they had been spotted... I guess the person could emote *glances into the trees then looks away casually*.

Think we should throw in a skill check to determine if the sneak catches he may have been spotted?

As far as true seeing, most sneaks might not realize you are using true seeing... well unless you have high enough spellcraft. TS is easily mistaken for ultravision. Then again most sneaks stay from either since they are not sure which has been cast.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

grozer said:

As far as true seeing, most sneaks might not realize you are using true seeing... well unless you have high enough spellcraft. TS is easily mistaken for ultravision. Then again most sneaks stay from either since they are not sure which has been cast.

I would agree for the inexperienced adventurer. Of course if the sneak is experienced watching you, and you say, "Oh lets see if someone is watching us," and then begin casting, you dont really need to know which it is.

Right now, without the suggestions above, most times if i am following someone and they begin casting, I make for the hills because even if I fail my spellcraft check, a paranoid char like mine can only assume one type of spell is coming.

But this is one of those instances where the sneaker emoting his hiding would help. Let's say you are in a house hiding under a bed. Someone comes in and casts true seeing. Unless they look under the bed, they shouldnt be able to see you. However, in NWN you'll pop right up on their screen.

[olwentheold]

Some good discussion here about RPing sneaking around. Kudos for that.

While this is entirely optional, I do appreciate it when players try to keep it "realistic" when they use their stealth ability. I've seen some utterly crappy game play by some players who "vanish" into thin air in broad day light and others who pop up right in another's face with the smug, "Surprise!" - likely thinking to himself/herself I bet you didn't know I would do that in your face because I threw every skill point I had in Hide and Move Silently in order to abuse the NWN engine and metagame my way into things.

Was that too much of an attack on people who do that? Yeah, I guess it was Like I said, while technically not breaking any rules, I, and very likely most of the DMs here, appreciate those who make an effort to RP their sneaking around as realistically as possible, and, at the very least, not abuse it as mentioned above

[Grozer]

All with you Quad, true seeing is not xray vision... I know I've made that mistake before and needed to be reminded. Then again it would need to be an awfully big bed or wide tree for Hrothgar to hide behind! ;D

[Talus]

Alright going to show my bias and ingnorance here some. Now I don't have the book in front of me, but doesn't the Rogue class description say something about almost magical abilities at stealth and subterfuge. Granted there are places you can sneak into that you probably shouldn't be able to. But this kind of seems to tell folk not to bother with spot and listen, because the rogue has to tell you where he is if there is no obvious cover in the game enviroment.

I also kind of thought the rogues stealth ability was to go undetected not just to hide, but to blend into the crowd some.

Now I am just as guilty of obvious bad stealthing, and have tried to avoid it since it was pointed out to me. But when you start looking about the game enviroment, there are not alot of interior areas that you can realisticly stealth.

My other thought here is I as a player am no ninja. I don't know all the tricks to hiding, but my character does.

Those are my thoughts at the moment on reading this discussion. I think it's a good one and am not opposed to the idea, but also wanted chime in as the devil's advocate some.

[Grozer]

I dont have the books in front of me right now either but my gut reaction... I would expect that "magical ability" to hide is more applicable to Shadowdancer while a rogue would rely more perfecting his skills at using shadows, objects, other people etc to hide himself/herself.

And yes I agree, part of stealth is blending in so people have to remember that even tho there are only 1-2 NPCs due to game mechanics in a town, in theory the streets should be bustling with activity during traditional times. Sooo it would much harder to actually realize someone is trying to follow you even IF you spot them.

Can I just say I hate sneaks *grumble grumble*



..well except the ones that work for Ranan

[Munroe]

I am, in fact, a ninja. I can think of ways for a character to sneak inside but they'd look really silly to anyone who happened to spot them. Most of the time, sneaking inside is not practical. Hiding under beds and waiting for people is one thing, sneaking into a room when two people go in to talk privately is another.

I have managed to open a door, talk to people, close the door and get in the room stealthed without being seen, and without being a shadowdancer before, engine-wise, but RP-wise it didn't make sense. That was in my wilder days (and before they introduced the shadowdancer to NWN). I know better now though, and have only this to say:

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

Me and Jules, we go way back. :-)

[Talus]

So let's say for example a rogue, is sneaking around town, and lets say it is daylight. But this rogue is sticking to building edges, trees, and obstacles. Then he sees a likely mark with a full purse. Now should the rogue then unstealth and try for the grab, or could he stay stealthed and try for it? Also should the rogue be unstealthing between buildings and trees and such? In my experience it can be real difficult to loose that line of sight for stealth to work with out something rather big like a building blocking the view. Granted sometimes it only take a moment behind a rock.

But if we are talking smitings and such now, I want to know what the expectations are.

Oh! And who's your brother? I'll keep my poison away from him.....for now

[olwentheold]

wolfmunroe said:

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

You're the man Munroe! I had no idea you were the man with the bad mother#$@!%%$ wallet too ;D

I would say there's no hard fast rules and I doubt I or any of the others would smite anyone just for being a poor sneak. I'm just saying it would be nice if sneaky types took the effort to RP it some, and at the very least, not irritate everyone else by treating it as their metagaming tool to be the amazing invisible man.

[Manshin]

My personal definition of stealth would be: The art of assuming and maintaining extremely uncomfortable positions without moving for extended periods of time. Loosing the human shape, and playing on the resonable expectations of human perception in familiar terrain. So if you are spotted.. you shouldnt be "just standing there" and people should probably know that you were trying to be stealthy.

That said, I DO believe it is perfectly reasonable to walk down the middle of the street in broad daylight in a town or city stealthed. In this case, it represents the "blending-with-the-imaginary-crowd" aspect. In a small town such as Dedluck or some place like that, I wouldnt recomend that trick unless you are disguised. However, even this needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Manshin wont be trying this trick in any place smaller than Suzail because he is easily recognised by his ever-present Korfuji, and his foriegn looks. For him to walk in stealth down the street, he would need a disguise, unless he was in a huge city where it is considered that there are hundreds of people clogging the street.
Infact this gives me an idea. Maybe any player who is wearing a disguise should stay in stealth mode unless speaking to another. This is because they are trying to be unnoticed by others... just another face in the crowd. In this respect, you should unstealth if you draw the attention of another by speaking or bumping into them.
A thing about this: it gives rogues and steatlhy characters an advantage when wearing disguise that other players dont get. And they SHOULD have an advantage when in disguise. For instance, when Ranan is walking down the street, sometimes people will bug him or try to "pry" the truth from him of his identity. Its meta game, sure.. but then again, he probably isnt the best at being inconspiquous, whereas, a rogue like Louis Cypher or Hrothgar are experts at staying out of others perception while in disguise, and the fact that they are allowed to move around in broad daylight down the street in stealth mode is testament to this.
Of course, if you move into a less populated area, such as a shop or off the path, you should probably unstealth as you are more likely to draw glances. In that case, you would deal with the whole "disguse vs. spot" senario as it comes up.

[Munroe]

*hands Ainur a cookie*

The threat was a movie quote, for those who haven't figured it out.

Talus, no, I wouldn't say you'd need to drop stealth between buildings. That can be imagined/roleplayed as darting between them, or even jumping across them. :-) If you're roleplaying sneaking on rooftops, then you begin to understand the skill of the ninja. However, in that big open area in front of the Griffon and crossing roads and any areas that have decent gaps, if you cannot RP a way to reasonably get across in stealth, then don't go across in stealth.

Picking pockets from stealth I have no problem with either, but picking pockets obviously from stealth I do. If there are people all around, and you're standing behind someone picking their pocket, they may not see you but someone else would. If you're not in stealth, they may still not know you're picking their pockets, but when somebody should clearly see you, let them. As for the daggers with pickpocket bonus on them, not terribly fond of them in general. If people see you holding a dagger in town and being all sneaky, that can never go well. Perhaps they'd be best used for the unsuspecting mark who isn't surrounded by possible witnesses. The best thing is try to use your best judgement. If it seems like metagaming the engine, it is. Try to imagine what the character is doing, not what the avatar is doing, and if it makes sense from the character standpoint (not the mechanics/avatar standpoint), try to work through it. In my experience, it can help you understand your own character better.

As for the sneaking in town for disguise, I'm not so much a fan. If it is the city tileset then sure. After all, it is a city and you might be hard to spot in the crowd. If it is not a city tileset, such as somewhere like Isinhold or Skull Crag, I really don't think the population is so big that you can't notice a suspicious individual coming down the street. Which brings up another topic that I think I'll start a new thread for...

[heimdall]

I would like to also point out that although the NwN game mechanics allow you to stealth while you are emitting a light source that this behavior is not realistic in any sense.

If I (or other DM's) see you using stealth while you are wearing or carrying items that cast light, do not be suprised or upset when you are detected by monsters and/or other PC's.

[DM Grizwald]

Also, make sure you dont buy items that have a light source...i've made that mistake and am now having to start all over

[hexer]

True Seeing! NWN True Seeing reveals stealthed characters... This is *not* supposed to be. Stealth implies you are hiding behind something or using some form of cover. True Seeing is not x-ray vision. If someone is, let's say... hiding behind a nearby pillar and you use true seeing and see them... Go by spot and hide rolls with the dicebag. Again, True Seeing is *not* supposed to reveal stealth, so don't use it for that.

[DM Grizwald]

Now, lets say your being followed and somone in the party says something along the lines of: "i think i herd something". Someone else in the party casts true seeing and you start looking around.
Obviously if someone was stalking you their name would pop up and now the group realy knows someone was bring stalked. Since now you cant use true seeing to detect stealth being a building, the character might start looking around which now might become a metagaming nightmare because he might directly go to the pc's hiding spot. Now, obviously open and now hiding anymore, the stealthing pc is busted.

I know where all trying to make this as realistic as possible but the game isnt perfect. In my opinion though, if we keep taking things away to try to make this game as realistic as possible we kind of ruin it for some characters.

If i cast true seeing on myself and see someone...they are exposed. It probably means they were not hiding well. Heck, chril escaped 3 of us with true seeing in isinhold, he used the walls and other things to take cover behind.

[soulfien]

If someone RP's stealth, I'll RP true seeing.

If I cast true seeing and spot someone in the middle of an open field or standing right in front of me then they're busted. If they're using walls, hills, and trees, I'll pretend I don't notice them.

[thogrimur]

I think the point is to just make the effort to be as true to form as possible.

I wouldn't look at this as taking things away - use it as a guideline on how to properly handle a situation.

It make take some adjustments to style, but I don't see how this ruins anything for anyone.

I do think that posting that you will continue to play how you wish despite DM rulings might not be such a wise option

[DM Grizwald]

hmmm...seems i might have to clear things up...having a name up behind a wall doesnt mean i see them...usually when they are transparent the individual doesnt see them. never once did i say i wasnt going to go by dm ruling. But lets say the idivdual spotted using true seeing isnt transparent, then he would indeed be spotted. thats what i was trying to get by.

[thogrimur]

I agree and this is going to be a tough one - as I don't always make the distinction that a character who is now tecnically 'visible' is in fact 'transparent' meaning they are still 'stealthed'

I have disabled those floating names so that is not really an issue for me.

I'd just say to do what we always do - the best you can with what you have to work with at the time. If you tend to give a slight benefit of the doubt to the one in stealth - i.e. a quick friendly tell to clarify 'before' making any actions - I don't think there will be too many issues of this nature popping up.

[heimdall]

How tall do you think the grass grows in open fields? Because I know that here where I live it grows to be about three or four feet in the summer months.

Thus if you cast true seeing and see a stealthed character in the middle of an 'open field' - there is still plenty of terrain for that character to remain stealthed, even if the game engine doesn't allow for it and no - you should not automatically detect them.

As Ainur said, it's not likely you'll be "smitten" for failing to RP these scenes well...but we should all be doing our best...and from what I see, most of the veteran players are doing just fine with this.

However, I am adding a sticky to this (congrat's Quad) so that newer players to the server might be able to glean the server expectations without having to hunt too hard.

[Grozer]

*BUMP*

I just would like to put this on people's radar again as its been awfully frustrating lately. I especially hate when I come through a transition and am looking at someone standing in the road and then poof they 'disappear' in broad daylight in the middle of the road and no they didnt use a potion.

This is one example I have encountered lately and yes I would expect an excellent rogue could instantly blend into large mass of people (which are to be RP'd as being there) before your eyes, but they should roll some checks at a penalty... I mean hell I am looking right at them or they are passing within a short distance of me.

Being a high level cleric, I CAN walk around with true seeing constantly but I choose not to unless I have a RP reason to actually cast it. Apparently now it seems I will need to just to counter people abusing stealth.