|
|
Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Dec 4, 2007 19:14:52 GMT -5
Right, but there is the fact that you spend near 100gp a pop in invis potions, and clicking stealth mode is free. There is also the fact that 90% of the characters out there don't walk around with trueseeing on all the time...I've never used truesight ever..not even once.
|
|
|
|
Post by cloakedandhooded on Dec 4, 2007 19:49:19 GMT -5
I once had someone drink a potion of True Seeing and they still couldn't see me because my character blended into the background. They could, of course, detect me by pressing tab to highlight me, but they didn't see me. (I wasn't even in stealth at the time. I had come out of stealth already so they could hear me talk.)
I guess I don't take it as any big deal that True Seeing reveals characters in stealth. That's how it's always been on every server I've been on since I've been playing this game. (Since it came out.) That's not how it is in D&D, but that's prettymuch how it is in NWN. A stealthed character who is cautious can get past TrueSeeing in most scenarios that are off the rails. TrueSeeing does make playing on the rails a bit more difficult though since there are things you can't do on the rails like climbing the slope instead of going through the mountain pass with the guard with TrueSeeing.
|
|
|
|
Post by marklar on Dec 4, 2007 20:37:44 GMT -5
well there is definatly no waste in getting those points in stealth. not everyone is a spell caster, also the duration of true seeing has been shortened so even if they have a potion it's not going to last long and as a stealther you should almost always have some form of cover so really peoples characters shouldn't be able to see you...
if your a good stealther TS doesn't make much of a difference, besides the difference with good rogues and bad are good ones always have an escape and if they do get sighted they have many tricks to get away.
|
|
|
|
Post by Munroe on Dec 4, 2007 23:05:04 GMT -5
I'm not aware of True Seeing being shortened on FRC.
|
|
|
|
Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Dec 4, 2007 23:28:27 GMT -5
This topic does seem to resurface for good or ill once in awhile, and I personally am in favor of the official DM ruling on truesight.
What I can say is this...theres a lower level spell then truesight, that will see right through an invisibility potion. Not to mention invisibility potions run out, often at the most inopportune moment, and stealth doesn't suddenly vanish.
You need to be a 8th level or higher cleric, a 12th level or higher wizard/sorcerer, or a 13th level or higher druid to cast truesight, unless I am mistaken. So it isn't as if anyone who gets through the introductory area is automatically granted truesight. Truesight potions if I remember correctly, were expensive enough that even when I played a full-time merchant PC I didn't buy them. Maybe I just always made -alot- less money than some people.
Granted, as someone has pointed out to me...characters seem to suddenly become awful paranoid and start drinking the truesight potions and casting the spells the moment someone clicks them hostile. This is an unfortunate situation that altering the truesight spell in any way will not change. If it was changed, these -very- same people will be carrying amplify and clairaudience/clairvoyance scrolls, wands, or potions to get past your stealth. Metagaming of this sort cannot and will not be stopped by altering the trueseeing spell. Like many things it will only hurt those players who don't do this.
Thats all I have to say about the subject.
-Greg
|
|
|
|
Post by Teneas on Dec 5, 2007 8:18:36 GMT -5
Just my opinion on how this should be played using the dm rules: Not to long ago a certain whistling elf was in the Hullack, and two certain evils were spotted there, one of em being warned not to enter under pain of death, so the whistling elf followed em in sneak mode. Started laying some traps here and there. Well by the time one of the "baddies" stepped on the first trap, he used true seeing. He didn't see my character until I had my pc run out into the open to distance himself, and thus he was spotted. I did not emote hiding behind anything, or lying in the tall grass, or anything, so I gave it to him. Was my fault. It goes both ways ya know....gotta emote it, in tells works to, and the other has to realize that truesight does not grant you the ability to see through rocks and trees. Now that pc knows it was my pc.....awwww...we were behaving and keeping things so civil to.  |
|
|
|
Post by Grozer on Dec 5, 2007 13:00:51 GMT -5
This topic does seem to resurface for good or ill once in awhile, and I personally am in favor of the official DM ruling on truesight. -Greg Official ruling posted on previous page: I'm going to try and word this carefully because what the game does and what our official DM ruling is slightly different so pay close attention. Here is the OFFICIAL DM Ruling: True Seeing is an acceptable counter to stealth if the target is in line of sight. If the person is behind an object True Seeing does not allow you to know they are there EVEN THOUGH YOU MAY SEE A FLOATING NAME. And YES we understand this is different than the spell in the DnD universe. |
|
|
|
Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Dec 5, 2007 13:20:23 GMT -5
This topic does seem to resurface for good or ill once in awhile, and I personally am in favor of the official DM ruling on truesight. -Greg Official ruling posted on previous page: I'm going to try and word this carefully because what the game does and what our official DM ruling is slightly different so pay close attention. Here is the OFFICIAL DM Ruling: True Seeing is an acceptable counter to stealth if the target is in line of sight. If the person is behind an object True Seeing does not allow you to know they are there EVEN THOUGH YOU MAY SEE A FLOATING NAME. And YES we understand this is different than the spell in the DnD universe. I think he was saying he agreed with the ruling. I know some will and some will not. It wasn't a hasty decision no matter which way you feel. |
|
|
|
Post by Grozer on Dec 5, 2007 14:20:19 GMT -5
Thats what I get for skimming instead of reading... guess I am getting too old. Sorry Darkharp.
|
|
|
|
Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Dec 5, 2007 15:24:13 GMT -5
*looks at Grozer's avatar*
It's those eyeless sockets dude! Get something done about that. Seek medical help!
|
|
|
|
Post by ShadowCatJen on Dec 5, 2007 15:35:52 GMT -5
... what would be the negative modifier to his spot and search check for that?.... What? I'm trying to bring it back to the topic.  |
|
|
|
Post by Munroe on Dec 6, 2007 0:28:24 GMT -5
... what would be the negative modifier to his spot and search check for that?.... What? I'm trying to bring it back to the topic. Well, if he's undead he would have Darkvision regardless of the state his eyes are in, which would mean that characters using shadowy illumination or darkness (excluding magical darkness) could not use it as a cover to enter stealth near him because it does not provide concealment against Darkvision. If he's not undead then I think he would be blind and therefore automatically fail any Search checks requiring a visual search, and all Spot checks. According to Rules Compendium, pg 34: | Blinded: A blinded creature can't see. It takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, moves at half speed, and takes s -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment against the blinded creature. A blinded creature pinpoints targets and deals damage to them as if those targets were invisible. Blinded creatures are immune to gaze attacks and other attacks that require the target to be able to see in order to be affected. |
|
|
|
|
Post by canuckkane on Dec 6, 2007 11:07:19 GMT -5
... what would be the negative modifier to his spot and search check for that?.... What? I'm trying to bring it back to the topic. Well, if he's undead he would have Darkvision regardless of the state his eyes are in, which would mean that characters using shadowy illumination or darkness (excluding magical darkness) could not use it as a cover to enter stealth near him because it does not provide concealment against Darkvision. If he's not undead then I think he would be blind and therefore automatically fail any Search checks requiring a visual search, and all Spot checks. According to Rules Compendium, pg 34: | Blinded: A blinded creature can't see. It takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, moves at half speed, and takes s -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment against the blinded creature. A blinded creature pinpoints targets and deals damage to them as if those targets were invisible. Blinded creatures are immune to gaze attacks and other attacks that require the target to be able to see in order to be affected. |
...or an orc, or a dwarf, or a pale master. They all have darkvision too |
|
|
|
Post by Aodhan the Unusual on Dec 6, 2007 14:01:44 GMT -5
Shadowdancers too, but they don't apply to FRC.
|
|
|
|
Post by Munroe on Dec 6, 2007 15:55:11 GMT -5
Well, if he's undead he would have Darkvision regardless of the state his eyes are in, which would mean that characters using shadowy illumination or darkness (excluding magical darkness) could not use it as a cover to enter stealth near him because it does not provide concealment against Darkvision. If he's not undead then I think he would be blind and therefore automatically fail any Search checks requiring a visual search, and all Spot checks. According to Rules Compendium, pg 34: | Blinded: A blinded creature can't see. It takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, moves at half speed, and takes s -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment against the blinded creature. A blinded creature pinpoints targets and deals damage to them as if those targets were invisible. Blinded creatures are immune to gaze attacks and other attacks that require the target to be able to see in order to be affected. |
...or an orc, or a dwarf, or a pale master. They all have darkvision too She was asking in regard to the avatar though, which was a skeletal face with no eyes. I expect that an orc, dwarf, shadowdancer, or any other living creature with empty eye sockets would fall into the blinded category. (Not sure about pale master since their darkvision comes from approaching undeath.) |
|
|
|
Post by canuckkane on Dec 12, 2007 7:31:27 GMT -5
Oh, duh... n/m my brain isn't working, I thought it was a question in general and not specifically pertaining to Grozer. Yep, eyeless skull = blind in my book.
|
|
|
|
Post by FORSETIS on Jan 17, 2008 1:42:04 GMT -5
I read the first one. My character Adria is a common theif, I'll have her sit in a dark corner or something along the lines of that, or by a doorway so that when someoen walk by i can just PP them. Her favorit spot being jsut outside the Isinhold Inn behind the barrel. ( no one better take it! or use that in game to find me! lol) And I send tells on the dm channel the hole time saying what im doing as though I was playing Paper and Pen more or less. ex: *crouches behind the barrel dagger drawn and ready to cut the purse* Thats just something I do. *shrugs*
|
|
|
|
Post by ladyofthemists on Jun 8, 2008 2:48:43 GMT -5
Also Stealthing as you walk down the middle of the road in front of Garrots in Isinhold is probably not something you want to do as chances are someone has already spotted you which I have on one occasion.
|
|
|
|
Post by acmeinc on Jun 8, 2008 12:51:03 GMT -5
Also Stealthing as you walk down the middle of the road in front of Garrots in Isinhold is probably not something you want to do as chances are someone has already spotted you which I have on one occasion. I can't say if this is what was happening, but I do know a few elves with low hide/ms skills who will use the stealth button to walk when their shift button fingers are ready to fall off or they want to walk and talk/emote at the same time. |
|
|
|
Post by EDM Entori on Jun 8, 2008 14:53:29 GMT -5
stealth also means being unnoticeable, while the mechanic is that you do not see them. A character 'stealthing' through suzails merchant district in daylight is quite beleivible.
The character is 'blending' with the crowd. or is otherwise not attracting your characters attention. there are ways to do that, as a pilot I know I can be looking at something and it will be there and I would not see it. Because the brain does not register it.
if you have airplane head on, you will notice its getting bigger, but if your looking a spot on your windscreen in a fluid scan, just sweeping your eyes so to speak. you will not see anything. cause your brain is not registering any movement.
possible rogues theives, use this to their advantage. and only when they step on a rock/ make a quick movement do you notice them.
That does not mean you can walk across an inn unseen with no one there. and pop up in front of your buddies.
However if its a crowded square, or you may enter the unnoticed, slip in through the door while the other character is talking/distracted, sweep along by the bar order a drink. "unnoticed." then when his friend walks away.. Then you strike!.. lol.. assains creed anyone?
but its a perfect example if how someone can hide in broad daylight.
in an open feild? not so likely, unless your low and colored the same as the high grass. Just be aware of how your character is noticeable.
Black cloak in snow terrain....
//edited for stupidity and misspellings
|
|
|
|
Post by qewaye on Jun 8, 2008 15:13:44 GMT -5
One of my favourite things to do with Isi - when there is time - is when she knows what type of terrain she will be scouting, to dye her clothes to the same colour of the main body of vegetation/ground/rocks etc. It's kind of fun as when she returns from the Storm Horns people know....she's in light colours as opposed to her forest greens.
Think like a guerilla(I said guerilla not gorilla).
|
|
|
|
Post by dmimmersion on Jun 8, 2008 17:19:00 GMT -5
Blade cloak in snow terrain.... This has a tendency to kind of bother me. I see alot of rogues up in the storm horns in dark clothes in plain day light that will just walk across open ground to attack giants. In my opinion this is really poor form as there is absolutly NO cover that would allow this. When stealthed.. try to stick to things that would provide cover.. tree edges.. cliff overhangs.. etc. But if you are in middle of a bunch of white snow.. that is really the time to come out of stealth and accept that though you are stealthy.. it isnt a magical ability that allows you to cross barren snow covered ground to get those sneak attacks in against that priestess you want to kill before the warrior. |
|
|
|
Post by Munroe on Jun 8, 2008 17:32:29 GMT -5
That does mean you can walk across an inn unseen with no one there. and pop up in front of your buddies. I'm pretty sure Entori meant to say "does not mean" here. As for the black on snow thing, I would say that would depend on your armour. Stealth is usually not magical (though there are supernatural stealth abilities that are), but sometimes the amour granting a bonus to stealth is. If you're wearing armour that has a bonus to stealth on it, I would assume it's blending as part of its function, much like the camouflage spell. |
|
|
|
Post by fred on Jun 8, 2008 17:36:01 GMT -5
This has a tendency to kind of bother me. I see alot of rogues up in the storm horns in dark clothes in plain day light that will just walk across open ground to attack giants. In my opinion this is really poor form as there is absolutly NO cover that would allow this. Well, I always use a camouflage scroll when I'm going to the Storm Horns, the spell description of which states, "The caster's coloring changes to match the surroundings..." I really am doing my best to do this right.... I'm sorry if it comes across otherwise... I think... I must need a break... |
|
|
|
Post by EDM Neo on Jun 8, 2008 17:36:07 GMT -5
Of course I'm sure not all do this, but the rogues I frequently play with, when in areas that their colors don't match the terrain, use a camoflauge scroll or spell.
It doesn't actually make a visible change on the character's avatar, but ICly, they would blend in perfectly.
EDIT: Oops, beaten to it by a few seconds.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2008 17:51:44 GMT -5
This is actually an awesome way to do things IMO.
~Sioladuil
|
|
|
|
Post by Teneas on Jun 8, 2008 19:16:03 GMT -5
This has a tendency to kind of bother me. I see alot of rogues up in the storm horns in dark clothes in plain day light that will just walk across open ground to attack giants. In my opinion this is really poor form as there is absolutly NO cover that would allow this. Well, I always use a camouflage scroll when I'm going to the Storm Horns, the spell description of which states, "The caster's coloring changes to match the surroundings..." I really am doing my best to do this right.... I'm sorry if it comes across otherwise... I think... I must need a break... Gotta say that I had Ten start actually dying his armor to white and brown when he goes the storm horns. Felt all dirty inside when I wore all black and just hit stealth in the middle of nothing. Giants can not see ink blots in the wide ass open btw.  |
|
|
|
Post by Munroe on Jun 8, 2008 20:48:54 GMT -5
Of course a lot of the colour questions are a moot point when it's either snowing or nighttime.
If it's snowing significantly visibility is impaired and if it's nighttime... well, visibility is also impaired.
|
|
|
|
Post by ashaffer on Jun 8, 2008 21:05:39 GMT -5
I've noticed that though spells that aid stealth have been mentioned on this thread lately, none of the items (cloak, boots, armor, hoods, staves, etc) have been... These items that add to your stealth skills are magical in nature, and so that should be taken into account, so it really does not matter what color clothing the person stealthing is wearing.
I also see the mundane stealth skills as the stealthy person being unnoticeable, blending into your surroundings, not calling attention to yourself, rather than being invisible... If you want to be able to see people in stealth, I suggest you put points into listen and spot, like I had to. If you have little, or no, points in those skills then you haven't trained yourself to be an observant person. *shrugs*
|
|
|
|
Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Jun 8, 2008 22:07:54 GMT -5
I've noticed that though spells that aid stealth have been mentioned on this thread lately, none of the items (cloak, boots, armor, hoods, staves, etc) have been... These items that add to your stealth skills are magical in nature, and so that should be taken into account, so it really does not matter what color clothing the person stealthing is wearing. I also see the mundane stealth skills as the stealthy person being unnoticeable, blending into your surroundings, not calling attention to yourself, rather than being invisible... If you want to be able to see people in stealth, I suggest you put points into listen and spot, like I had to. If you have little, or no, points in those skills then you haven't trained yourself to be an observant person. *shrugs* All the same, blending into your surroundings and not calling attention to yourself would include, but not be limited to the clothing colors you are wearing, provided there was enough visibility to see you anyways. Still..items providing stealth bonuses and spells that do so would help with this. Someone who takes their stealth seriously though would likely prepare for the eventuality of their items not working properly or spells wearing off. I very rarely use my own stealth abilities, which are considerable; but when I do so I use the terrain, and turn my stealth off when I have to cross open spaces that lack tall grass and trees. Thats just the way I do it, not sure how right or wrong some people consider this. Food for thought: These are the rules to stealth in the 3.5 system, and they don't happen to mention color anywhere as part of the requirements for the hide skill. Then again...they do mention that you can't hide in the middle of an open field with no cover. www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/moveSilently.htmwww.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm |
|
