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Post by EDM Entori on Jun 9, 2008 0:56:17 GMT -5
I've noticed that though spells that aid stealth have been mentioned on this thread lately, none of the items (cloak, boots, armor, hoods, staves, etc) have been... These items that add to your stealth skills are magical in nature, and so that should be taken into account, so it really does not matter what color clothing the person stealthing is wearing. I also see the mundane stealth skills as the stealthy person being unnoticeable, blending into your surroundings, not calling attention to yourself, rather than being invisible... If you want to be able to see people in stealth, I suggest you put points into listen and spot, like I had to. If you have little, or no, points in those skills then you haven't trained yourself to be an observant person. *shrugs* on the terms of roleplay and not so much DND, cause to me Roleplay is acting out which is in some casing making something believable, boots make you quieter, cloak makes you more concealed. if you think how a normal cloak works well it would be dark, so you do not have any reflection from metal, and really avoid the light, a dark cloak draped around a person at twilight may make you seem like a shadow in the dark or twilight. while I get they are magical, to my mind this means absorbing some amount of light, (per enchantment) and making you very quiet, also making the cloak, 'flow' instead of flap, or make noise/movement to cause attention. May also be enchanted for others to avoid noticing. While some spells do convert colors, which is 'beleivable' unless your thinking of the elven cloaks from LOTR which I thought were pretty cool on screen. I just consider most magical items like that an Aid to a persons abilities. but no manner of 'blending' will make a black cloak look white. though if you were sitting at your table top game, it would be at the call of the individual dm right? these were just food for thought for the individual making a sneak above. each Dm I beleive will call it as they see it, if your in black but using cover cool. I think we trust our friendly dms enough  |
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Post by EDM Neo on Jun 25, 2008 10:16:26 GMT -5
I'm not sure if this was brought up earlier in the topic, but I don't think it was, so may as well ask.
Do/should ioun stones interfere with stealth? I usually try to remember to emote that my character grabs his ioun stone out of the air and holds it in his hand, to be re-released later before trying to sneak, but that's just me. Do they actually glow, so that it would pinpoint someone's location in a dark area? Do they spin rapidly enough that the motion would draw attention? How shiny are they? Etc, etc.
Just looking for other people's opinions, or if anyone has any information from the source to answer all this.
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Post by EDM Entori on Jun 25, 2008 10:41:19 GMT -5
it was my notion that they sort of levitated above ones head, and we're just a gemstone, something that could be covered, or if your characters is in the shadows it is as well.
IMHO.
I'll dig away through my sourcebooks and see if theres mention of ioun stones
Ent
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Post by Munroe on Jun 25, 2008 11:14:12 GMT -5
it was my notion that they sort of levitated above ones head, and we're just a gemstone, something that could be covered, or if your characters is in the shadows it is as well. IMHO. I'll dig away through my sourcebooks and see if theres mention of ioun stones Ent Ioun Stones actually spin around a character's head so they are in constant motion and have their own AC (AC 24). They can be grabbed out of the air or netted to separate them from their owner, and the person whose head they orbit can grab them without effort. This would indicate that they cannot be covered while active. Ioun Stones are detailed on pages 260 - 261 of the 3.5e DMG. They circle the head 1d3 feet from the head and their description does not indicate any impact they have on stealth. The Ioun Stone entry also doesn't indicate how many Ioun Stones a character may have active at once or what body slot (if any) the Ioun Stone occupies. The illustration would suggest a character could equip multiple Ioun Stones at once. (It shows stones of multiple shapes and colours orbiting a guy's head.) |
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Post by ConcreteSequential on Jan 6, 2009 20:38:42 GMT -5
Being a long time stealthy character, and having several discussions with various people, I have decided to mend my ways. Stealth is oft an abused skill in NWN because of the ability to sneak right before a persons eyes. In this discussion, I will most often be referring to situations with PC to PC interaction. First, in order to remain hidden, you must have cover of some sort. Furniture, nooks and crannies, trees, tall grass, and various other instances. I am guilty of the infamous sneaking in open spaces area. However, like i said above, i am trying to better my rp by remaining under some sort of cover. Second, if following someone, or sneaking up on them, always approach from out of line of sight. If their character does turn around and you are not under cover, you should pop yourself out of stealth mode. Sure it might put you in an awkward, if not deadly situation, but at least you'll have the surprise factor on them  . Now with the NWN controls system and lag, it is often hard to determine whether or not the person intended to turn around. Give them a second, and if they emote searching, then you should pop yourself out of stealth. This will be discussed a little later. Emote what you are doing. I know this might clue the character you are following in on things because their head may twist around to look at you, but it will help anyone else watching you understand what is going on. Now for detection. Indicators. It is always good to show indicators of what your character is doing. Let's say you spotted someone behind a tree. This may mean that your character noticed a branch moving or an odd shadow falling out of place. Your characters facial features or movements are good things to describe. *Moves in to investigate* or *squints at tree* are good ones. This gives the stealther a chance to respond to the situation. They can then emote to you what they are doing. Say they are in tall grass. Perhaps they are laying on their belly. However, stealthers should not take this opportunity to metagame being spotted and drink a potion of invis, because they dont really know if they have been spotted. However, if a character moves towards their position it might safe to say that a paranoid character would assume they were spotted. Listening will also give you some rights to investigate situations. Branches breaking, scuffling of feet, these situations happen to the best of sneakers. In most situations, listening is more helpful. If you are on the other side of a wall, you are likely to hear someone, and VERY unlikely to see them. And I have one last thing to add about True Seeing (my best friend ) True Seeing may automatically allow you as a player to detect every hidden thing on the screen, but even if it we take it as the way NWN plays it, it is True Seeing, not True listening. Now this is open for some debate, but I would like to pose at least a few scenarios that I do not think true seeing should work in. If I am standing behind you, with a house between us, and I am not moving, then I do NOT think true seeing should detect me. It is not X-Ray vision. If I am on a floor below you, hidden behind or under some object, and you have no way of getting line of sight, I do NOT think true seeing should detect. If i am standing behind a tree off to your right and you cast it, i think you could detect me, but perhaps approach it as I stated above. If you cast it, and I appear right in front of your face, well then you have every right to start swinging . However, I will play it however the other PC wishes to handle it, as i know that True Seeing is sometimes the only way people can detect a person, and I am not going to force anyone to do anything they dont want to do. The reason I bring this topic up is that if I am going to try to adhere to the guidelines as stated above, I will be putting myself at a slight disadvantage due to the NWN engine. However, I know sometimes it is ok to "lose" and i hope others realize this as well. Oh and for those pesky npcs, i dont care how you sneak up on them. But if you are dealing with a dm, you may want to be careful . I know of one that has threatened to start popping me out of stealth. BUMP! |
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Post by ConcreteSequential on Feb 8, 2009 13:55:35 GMT -5
Just bumping this thread again so people can read what's already been discussed. There's some great information here in regard to what's appropriate and what isn't in matters of stelth. This from page 4 pretty much covers the stealth vs True Sight question: I'm going to try and word this carefully because what the game does and what our official DM ruling is slightly different so pay close attention. Here is the OFFICIAL DM Ruling: True Seeing is an acceptable counter to stealth if the target is in line of sight. If the person is behind an object True Seeing does not allow you to know they are there EVEN THOUGH YOU MAY SEE A FLOATING NAME. And YES we understand this is different than the spell in the DnD universe. |
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Post by probablyamage on Aug 20, 2010 14:03:52 GMT -5
Resurrecting because something springs to mind. If you are sneaking around, as I understand it, no one can read your emotes unless they can detect you, by listen, spot, or true seeing respectively. It would be great if people sneaking emoted, even on the off chance they're seen. With the way nwn is, its not always obvious that your sneaking. Someone with a high spot might think that someone is just nearby in town walking sedately along, instead of sneaking around. Most characters will react in some way if they see someone sneaking around. Players sometimes aren't even aware of the fact, due to nwn limitations.
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Post by Teneas on Aug 20, 2010 15:02:14 GMT -5
Resurrecting because something springs to mind. If you are sneaking around, as I understand it, no one can read your emotes unless they can detect you, by listen, spot, or true seeing respectively. It would be great if people sneaking emoted, even on the off chance they're seen. With the way nwn is, its not always obvious that your sneaking. Someone with a high spot might think that someone is just nearby in town walking sedately along, instead of sneaking around. Most characters will react in some way if they see someone sneaking around. Players sometimes aren't even aware of the fact, due to nwn limitations. some of us do that. I will send out a *blends in with crowd* emote when I get around others. Sometimes..even when alone, in case someone is following my pc. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2010 9:42:08 GMT -5
My biggest issue with this is location. I could imagine this happening in Suzail or Arabel or one of the larger cities. But if it is done in Great Gaunt... I tend to just roll my eyes personally.
My second biggest issue is this... when does "unrepresented npc's" stop being an excuse for being X. So far I have seen "unrepresented npc's" to make arrests for crimes commited in areas where I could not see there being that many NPC's or even people. *Shrugs* Just me though, maybe?
~Sio
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Post by Teneas on Aug 22, 2010 10:55:54 GMT -5
My biggest issue with this is location. I could imagine this happening in Suzail or Arabel or one of the larger cities. But if it is done in Great Gaunt... I tend to just roll my eyes personally. My second biggest issue is this... when does "unrepresented npc's" stop being an excuse for being X. So far I have seen "unrepresented npc's" to make arrests for crimes commited in areas where I could not see there being that many NPC's or even people. *Shrugs* Just me though, maybe? ~Sio Well of course I don't use that out in the forest or even in Great Gaunt, was just an example. |
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racestark
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R-E-A-D-A-B-O-Okay!
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Post by racestark on Aug 30, 2010 10:50:17 GMT -5
If you are sneaking around, as I understand it, no one can read your emotes unless they can detect you, by listen, spot, or true seeing respectively. Really? Is this true? Because I always emote in stealth through the whisper channel because I didn't know this. But if that's true I'll start giving any happenstance PC's their spot/listen checks like they deserve. (Been playing this game off and on for five years and I still learn a game mechanic that makes RP sooooooo simpler.) |
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Post by EDM Neo on Aug 30, 2010 10:54:27 GMT -5
It's mostly true.
For emotes and such to not be seen, you need to have been undetectable (whether invisible, stealthed, etc) for at least a certain amount of time. I haven't measured exactly what this is, but I think it's something close to twenty seconds or so.
If you've been undetectable for more than that, your emotes and speech won't be seen. If you've been undetectable for only a few seconds, they can still see what you say.
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Post by kaltorac on Aug 30, 2010 11:49:53 GMT -5
It's mostly true. For emotes and such to not be seen, you need to have been undetectable (whether invisible, stealthed, etc) for at least a certain amount of time. I haven't measured exactly what this is, but I think it's something close to twenty seconds or so. If you've been undetectable for more than that, your emotes and speech won't be seen. If you've been undetectable for only a few seconds, they can still see what you say. One round is the time (6 seconds), but depending on your exact timing that ranges from 1-11 seconds in RL. (non-combat rounds can also be affected by lag ... so the time given could be much longer in many cases) |
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Post by timenewton on Apr 28, 2015 7:40:01 GMT -5
I do wish that while in stealth if I type something/say something that everyone could hear it. I mean it only make since. Versus your speech even being hidden.
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Post by appleseedy on Apr 28, 2015 9:58:29 GMT -5
stealth can be very easy to abuse, i saw one pc picking herbs in stealth mode which i thought was a bit silly...when i say saw i mean i saw plants dissapearing
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Post by FlyingMidget on Apr 28, 2015 10:31:03 GMT -5
While it can be abused, I tend to write it off as IC people were being intelligent with their use of various available magics and mundane things that can help remain concealed.
Invisibility/improved invisibility to provide concealment to hide within/to make it more difficult to see them.
Camouflage scrolls/wands/items to blend in with whatever is directly around them.
Cloaks of Camouflage (Any cloak with a bonus to hide on it I tend to treat as blending in with their surrounding) which they could wrap around themselves more then usual to help hide.
Also taking more mundane things into association.
Things such as hiding behind/between/near unrepresented NPC's or other forms of temporary cover (wagons, horses, fences, tree's, bushes, stalls, whatever else) or walking alongside them to appear inconspicuous.
Likewise if you're wearing neutral colours or colour's that blend in with what is directly around you (NPC's, building walls, greenery), distance can also provide a degree of cover as well.
That all said, if a character spots you for whatever reason they've taken note of your presence.
As for Timenewton's wish, I don't believe anything can be done about it. Bioware put such into place to represent the player cannot be heard (listen check vs MS) and to stop emotes/talking from giving the character away. If you talk while stealthed, you are essentially giving your position away as if you'd failed a MS check.
I'd recommend moving to a place of cover (around a building's corner, hiding behind a wall or on the otherside of an open doorway), unstealthing and making your comment if you wish to remain hidden then reestablish your stealth (even if you have hide in plain sight, stepping out of it to speak then rehiding while in plain view of a PC you've lost your cover and drawn attention to your location unless you were outside of line of sight as far as I'm concerned.
With regards to trueseeing's spot bonus, I tend to write such off as a counter to the various "magical" aids to hiding available and what was reasonably feasible to do from a build perspective to counter such. The magical aids I refer to are bonus hide on armours/cloaks, camouflage, mass camouflage, one with land and similar style effects.
FM.
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Post by Rane on Apr 28, 2015 13:47:05 GMT -5
So Quad... lets assume just for example that some random PC chose to allow said sneaker to tag along for whatever reason (no harm intended of course) after they had been spotted... I guess the person could emote *glances into the trees then looks away casually*. Think we should throw in a skill check to determine if the sneak catches he may have been spotted? As far as true seeing, most sneaks might not realize you are using true seeing... well unless you have high enough spellcraft. TS is easily mistaken for ultravision. Then again most sneaks stay from either since they are not sure which has been cast. And for us extremely sneaky people we are questioning whether you rely on true seeing for spot, or you have taken the skill as well since you know.. True seeing isn't enough for some lol |
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Post by gathera on Apr 29, 2015 0:15:14 GMT -5
stealth can be very easy to abuse, i saw one pc picking herbs in stealth mode which i thought was a bit silly...when i say saw i mean i saw plants dissapearing What? You have never snuck into a garden and sampled a selection *chuckling* Guess I must be a reprobate lol |
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Post by Pedantry INC on Apr 29, 2015 0:28:19 GMT -5
stealth can be very easy to abuse, i saw one pc picking herbs in stealth mode which i thought was a bit silly...when i say saw i mean i saw plants dissapearing What? You have never snuck into a garden and sampled a selection *chuckling* Guess I must be a reprobate lol If it was in early Jaunary it might have been myself on one of my alts; when I was jumped up on morphine for my kidneystone. Plucking a few herbs and reverse pickpocketing them onto other players that got close enough was about as involved in the server I could manage to be at times, which was fun as people got talking about the herb ghost or whatever theory they came up with. Suits the character too, cause she is the seen but not heard type that is oddly generous in her own manner of speaking. Not every weird situation is abuse. If you see this kind of thing happening, you can always do a quick ooc ask, or send a tell, or ding the dms to look into it if you really think that it might be a problem. |
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Post by gathera on Apr 29, 2015 3:44:39 GMT -5
I would say its not abuse. You are sneaking into a garden to steal. Now the value of the items isn't great but you can still treat the actions as you would going about as if you were stealing something of value. I did something similar and once discovered I made a pretense of looking some something I had lost. I thought it had fallen around the garden *cough* and was ah searching for it. Oh yes there it is. Being in stealth is not always the same. The pick pocket in town is likely in the middle of the square. His object is not to be noticed by you. i.e. hiding. Anyhoo my tow cents worth
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Post by appleseedy on Apr 29, 2015 5:44:16 GMT -5
give over some one kneeling down taking herbs? i can see the herbs being pulled out of the ground but i can see the 5ft humanoid taking them yeah that makes sense, its an invisible man, sorry not buying that for a moment.
just saying its very easy to misuse stealth as game mechanics don't represent it very well. as the op suggested, if your staring right at someone (picking herbs or whatever) you can see them?
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Post by FlyingMidget on Apr 29, 2015 6:21:42 GMT -5
Unless you're standing directly over said plant observing it, you're likely best to treat it though you didn't see it get picked, whoever was picking it was likely not drawing attention to themselves or the plant. Things like slowly snatching up a herb when your gaze is drawn elsewhere by something. They may also be invisible.
I certainly don't pay attention to random plants in a garden that might vanish under others should a strong wind break it's stem/whatever else when I'm close to a garden, let alone if I'm more then 5 feet away.
Just my thoughts on the example given as I tend to consider at least some of what I posted previously is likely to be employed by the character that is sneaking.
You can always see the placable being opened/destroyed, that doesn't mean your character has noticed anything in that area for whatever reason and bushy herb style plants/hedges/whatever else can also obscure ones view from the person picking the small berries/leaves/flowers/roots or whatever else they require.
A side note, even if somebody picks (or rather attempts to pick) every plant placable in the garden, your character likely wouldn't know a single herb went missing unless he searched for such, there is the whole 10 second or so script that plays out detailing you attempt to find a herb before you can take such. That said it would be good manners to allow a spot/listen roll on such things.
Or perhaps one could make a suggestion that a -5 to -10 negative hide/ms for say six rounds to be applied to a player picking something up from stealth (preferably a stacking debuff so the more items you take quickly the more attention you rdraw), be it from the ground or in a placable to simulate possible sound/movement that could have been noticed. If your character isn't very observant at the best of times, then they won't notice such a small thing going missing unless they're paying particularly close attention to it for some reason.
FM.
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Post by gathera on Apr 29, 2015 20:29:19 GMT -5
Actually you can not see the herbs "disappear", well unless you press the tab key highlighting them. That action also makes piles of bones chests dead bodies etc. glow unnaturally as well. Stealth is not just hiding it is other activities done in a manner so not to draw attention to yourself. I remember an interview talking of a mobster enforcer who the third party claimed that he could move if need so you would never notice him. The gentlemen in question as reportedly well over 6 feet tall and muscular and yet could when needed be rather stealthy. Stealth is the art of not being observed. Anyway we likely agree to disagree on this matter and for the record it wasn't me lol. I just shamelessly steal err umm collect herbs and other free produce.
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Post by Razgriz on Apr 29, 2015 21:32:43 GMT -5
I assume they are using a wooden crate as a portable hideout.
(Lol sorry, had to)
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Post by Grozer on Apr 29, 2015 22:23:53 GMT -5
So Quad... lets assume just for example that some random PC chose to allow said sneaker to tag along for whatever reason (no harm intended of course) after they had been spotted... I guess the person could emote *glances into the trees then looks away casually*. Think we should throw in a skill check to determine if the sneak catches he may have been spotted? As far as true seeing, most sneaks might not realize you are using true seeing... well unless you have high enough spellcraft. TS is easily mistaken for ultravision. Then again most sneaks stay from either since they are not sure which has been cast. And for us extremely sneaky people we are questioning whether you rely on true seeing for spot, or you have taken the skill as well since you know.. True seeing isn't enough for some lol Seriously you are quoting my comment from almost exactly 9 years ago.... and out of context no less? Oi! I know I have been around this place a while but honestly....  |
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Post by Charon's Claw on Apr 29, 2015 23:59:12 GMT -5
An epic stealth focused PC  |
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Post by Ivarcles on Apr 30, 2015 2:04:03 GMT -5
stealth can be very easy to abuse, i saw one pc picking herbs in stealth mode which i thought was a bit silly...when i say saw i mean i saw plants dissapearing Maybe Greatgaunt has a problem with moles. |
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Post by Lady Frost on Apr 30, 2015 14:52:12 GMT -5
So Quad... lets assume just for example that some random PC chose to allow said sneaker to tag along for whatever reason (no harm intended of course) after they had been spotted... I guess the person could emote *glances into the trees then looks away casually*. Think we should throw in a skill check to determine if the sneak catches he may have been spotted? As far as true seeing, most sneaks might not realize you are using true seeing... well unless you have high enough spellcraft. TS is easily mistaken for ultravision. Then again most sneaks stay from either since they are not sure which has been cast. And for us extremely sneaky people we are questioning whether you rely on true seeing for spot, or you have taken the skill as well since you know.. True seeing isn't enough for some lol Back when Grozer said this, True Sight didn't give spot. True Seeing and Ultravision both used the same graphic animation. Since TS -always- showed stealth, if you had TS up, it was good RP to emote looking around so those in stealth could decide how to RP and whether their stealth would be compromised. As for TS now. TS gives you spot skill points. It doesn't matter if your PC has 'natural' spot points. Spot is spot. If you are referring to hiding behind something, that still would be affected by a naturally high spot. Spot doesn't allow you to see through anything whether it is 'natural' or 'magical'. |
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Post by stryker on Feb 14, 2019 0:15:57 GMT -5
Im seeing a few double standards here with this nwn engine vs PnP.
For example, starting a fight when in town means there will be witnesses even if no npcs are around because engine cant support real amounts of npcs. Ever thought how engine csn not support the diverse options of cover normally found in a PnP city? In PnP, as long as one ends one's turn concealment, I can stealth right past you in the plain open. I just cant dissapeer in plain sight without being a shadow dance. Unfortunately nwn mechanics do not allow me to take turns nor have a crazy busy city with npcs and various fixtures filling up and cluttering the streets, so we just assume they found a way to stealth up to you.
Another double standard: this talk about approaching someone's rear. Did you know in 3.5, particularly in combat or on a grid or 5 doot squares, the reason you take up a whole 5 foot sqaure is you are considered to be moving about in all directions in said combat square? In RAW, you never keep track of which way your character is facing. So again, i dont know why "sneak up right in front of you" is considered "abusing nwn sneaking mechanics".
Last, but not least. 8 hours of rest becomes 8 seconds. This is your most vulnerable time for a sneaker to sneak up and slit your unprepares throat. But alas, you will never have to worry about the dangers of being assasinated while sleeping because normally you got to RP before PvP, and even if DM approval allowed an exception, you sleep far too fast to be caught sleeping. If anything the limitations of NWN mechanics are stacked against the stealther, and not in their favour.
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. Now with the NWN controls system and lag, it is often hard to determine whether or not the person intended to turn around. Give them a second, and if they emote searching, then you should pop yourself out of stealth. This will be discussed a little later. 
