Fear and Pain

[Lady Frost]

For the sake of preserving Glandash's "Seriously" post, I will begin my own in response to something Rook said.

Aug 10, 2009 13:50:22 GMT -5 Rook said:

Aug 10, 2009 1:15:39 GMT -5 Lokarn said:

I agree that we all need to remind ourselves this is a game from time to time. I agree that if your only goal is to get epic level.... well then you might want to flesh out your story some more.

Now as for gaining server wide power.... umm .... if you meant IC wise... I see no problem with that, infact I encourage it, make lofty goals and aspire to reach them.

Now if players are being mean to one another, over roleplay, stop it. You are not your character, don't take it personally when your character gets insulted, figure out how the character would respond.

Conversely, if your character is going to insult a half-dragon with a bad attitude..... or an ugly nearly 8 foot tall orc with a frame that would make he-man jealous.... you should be thinking that through too, even if your character would not think that through, you as a player, should.


Lastly, I would remind everyone that much like the world we actually live in, this world is full of hatefull, lunatics who are willing to and often do, kill you for the slightest thing.

Most times, people would fight at the drop of a single insult. Think about all the fights you've ever seen before, most happen between two strangers who meet for the first time and insult one another, no reason other than that.

I'm not saying that should happen here, but keep that in mind when pondering the outcome of some arguments.

I can't fully agree with this. If you play a female wearing revealing clothing you should expect to be called a whore. If you play a freak you should expect to be called a freak. If you reveal a shield with Cyric's symbol you should expect trouble. I expect everyone to think of ways of dealing with insults that don't have to lead to PvP.

Everyone should be free to act IC. I don't think we should ask a player of a low level PC to meta-game the fact that someone else is epic and not insult them. I don't think epics should "just take it" either. But I think players of epics should think of ways to intimidate other PCs and try to instill some fear and respect in them. If that fails after a good amount of RP, then go to PvP if that's what you want to do. Epics should have a decent reputation already such that people know to leave them alone.

But if an epic dresses or acts in a way that welcomes insults and then quickly cuts down anyone that does so that's just wrong. That is a player baiting others into a fight that they can't loose. This isn't fun for the other person. I think this is especially bad if an epic is acting this way in Isinhold.

We've had players in the past that like to cut down others for the smallest of reasons. Generally they ruin the fun for the rest of the community.

To be honest, I can't think of a single time I've seen a fight break out in real life between strangers over a single insult.

Note: this is just my personal opinion.

((This is what I want to focus on out of the above quote))

Aug 10, 2009 13:50:22 GMT -5 Rook said:

But I think players of epics should think of ways to intimidate other PCs and try to instill some fear and respect in them.

With 75% of characters on this server this is impossible. And of that 75%, most are the ones who would never get into such a situation. Most people do not roleplay fear and pain, at least not well. One of the only ways to force people to listen to you and "respect" you, is to know that they could lose xp from having to respawn.

I can RP walking over and breaking their fingers and kneecaps, but the player doesn't actually feel the pain. They may say "ouch, hey that hurts" and after a quick "heal" they are good to go. I PROMISE, if the player had to feel what their character feels, people would play WAY WAY different.

Of nearly all the characters on the server, Zodika should be one of the most resistant to the effects of pain and even she emotes the effects of it and is not "immune".

I suggest if you want your character to be so resistant to fear or pain, you should role a paladin or choose the correct diety for it. (meant as a general statement to all)

-Zoe

((I thought this had been talked about before, but I couldn't find it))

[Rook]

I am not unsympathetic to this problem. I agree that few people want to play PCs who are intimidated by others. Perhaps it is IC or perhaps it is bad RP on their part.

Regardless, I think epics should still try to intimidate others before PvP. I guess what I asking is for epics to give low level PCs an opportunity to get out of a PvP situation by apologizing or whatever. Low level PCs should be given a way out of a bad situation and not feel trapped into having to be killed. If the player of the low level PC doesn't take advantage of that then that's their fault. If a low level PC persists in being belligerent then I wouldn't complain if the evil epic PC smites them.

I may be asking people to play a little OOC but in order for FRC to be a welcoming place for new players I think they need to be able to safely play their PC without fear of being killed suddenly for saying the wrong thing to the wrong person.

And yes, I'm sure there's a thread about intimidation somewhere but I haven't looked for it yet.

[Lady Frost]

Aug 10, 2009 16:19:36 GMT -5 Rook said:

Regardless, I think epics should still try to intimidate others before PvP. I guess what I asking is for epics to give low level PCs an opportunity to get out of a PvP situation by apologizing or whatever. Low level PCs should be given a way out of a bad situation and not feel trapped into having to be killed. If the player of the low level PC doesn't take advantage of that then that's their fault. If a low level PC persists in being belligerent then I wouldn't complain if the evil epic PC smites them.

This I agree to.

[The Supreme Watcher]

Are the DMs still handing out Intimidate widgets?

I've used mine in many situations. It's fun and helpful.

Garum typically reacts to pain and such, despite being a near-epic fighter who can get stomped on by a dragon and be mostly alright. It's always been a sort of comic relief, too, when he gets an arrow in the back every now and again, and has to have someone else yank it out while he screams bloody murder, but hey, I have to imagine that getting an arrow in you would hurt.

If other characters don't react to pain, then they could simply represent their HP as something other than their character's damage level. For instance, my paladin's HP represents, to me, his "Armor of Faith." It is the amount of damage his God will prevent from hurting him, until finally the damage gets through, and he is greivously wounded. For instance, I was in the kobold lair with him a few days ago, and a crit from a crossbow bolt hit him. He didn't react in pain to this, but, rather, I emoted that the crossbow bolt had struck his breastplate, right about the shoulder, but had failed to break through and kill him. This lowered his HP total, which meant that his Faith had saved him this time - but would it once more?

As far as Epic characters intimidating people, though? Some characters survive into the epic levels because they're unobtrusive and discreet, and I think these people should find ways other than intimidation to give players an out. If your epic level character is the type that turns tail and runs when they have the potential for harm, then their level shouldn't change that. However, if you're an epic level character, with exotic and impressive things, roleplay it! Don't just sit around posturing and waiting for someone to say something to you!

It's common for me to emote the following:

*the man is hugely muscled, his suit of armor is made from blue dragonscales over a suit of enchanted silver chainmail, his boots are white dragonscale, glimmering too-white. the five-foot sword at his side is well-worn and cared for. the shield on his back has seen numerous repairs, and shows the marks of a million combats*

Little cues like this can point out to other characters that "Yes, I have done my time in battle, and I am capable of killing you." I haven't had a single person start a fight with Garum on one of his passes through Isinhold since I began these emotes, and, in fact, it has fostered very good, continuous roleplay. Characters ask him what he's done, what he's seen, and so forth.

[Spirit of a Phoenix]

Could get annoying to react to every single hit, that's why I mostly just react to crits.

[iangallowglas]

I generally have Seamus react to pain, by not reacting that much. He mostly just stands still and either waits for someone to heal him, or starts healing himself. If asked if he's alright he'll Say, "I'm Fine". He uses that phrase a lot when he's obviously badly hurt. Sometimes he'll say "I'll Live". Not everyone screams or curses when they get hurt.

The guy has been wounded and healed tens of thousands of times, so many that while it hurts so much he'd probably rather be dead, he knows that the pain will end shortly once the healing comes. However, he will heal himself, and not walk around hurt. Walking around badly wounded or near death doesn't make much sense to me, and I think it's metagaming for the most part to walk around badly hurt just so you can hit the inn to save on bandages or milk.

People do have an amazing tendency to forget pain. Ask most women right after they have a baby and they'll likely tell you they never want to experience that kind of pain again (especially if it's a natural birth). But the intense memory of the pain fades greatly, so much so, that they'll tell you after having the second child, that they forgot how much it really hurt the first time. The brain plays funny tricks on us when it comes to pain.

[brian333]

Fear and pain are lousy tools for intimidation. Let me explain why:

The onset of either is traumatic, but if it does not cause death the person who is the subject of the treatment becomes hardened. For example, when I fell off my bike when I was five, I cried from the skinned knee. Last weekend I was knocking fenceboards off a fence and scraped the underside of my forearm and jabbed an inch-long splinter into my hand and I just yanked it out, squeezed it untill it stopped bleeding, and kept on working.

Physical fear and pain are tolerable, and once the body learns to tolerate them, they no longer work. For real fear and pain try psychological intimidation.

Now, as for characters and the way they react to either:

Many people pretend they have nothing wrong when they are obviously in need of medical asistance, while others run to the emergency room to treat a bobo. Some of this is training, or lack thereof, and some of it is their own personality.

For example: a Lakota Warrior would never display any emotional response to pain: his culture and training make such reactions demeaning to him.

I have characters that run the gamut of responses to pain: Kasur's a stoic, trained as a warrior by other stoics, and for him to display pain is to display weakness. Unien's a wuss. He runs to the ship's surgeon for a blister, and becomes ill at the sight of blood.

If it happens that adventurers as a class do not react to pain the way ordinary citizens do, it's simply a matter of natural selection. Most people who react badly to injury wouldn't take up the practice of swinging sharp steel around, and wading into a group of folks who do so with hostile intent.

In other words, all the wusses bail out of the game before it's _their_ blood on the dungeon floor.

[Lady Frost]

Some of this I can understand, but what I was getting at was past the normal wear and tear from battle. Its more along the lines of single RP'd confrontations.

In battle Hit Points can be thought of as many things. Surely you cannot be stabbed with a dagger 100 times and live. In controlled RP situations pain should be emoted much more in depth, and hit points are almost not used. If you are roped to a bed and I emote slicing your throat, I'm not going to target you hostile and attack you until you die. Thats silly. I'm going to emote slicing your throat and you should emote dying.

My point was that characters have little fear of pain because their players do not have to go through what their characters go through, so it is easy to say "Oh, I'm not scared of the psychopathic evil epic whatever" and when you get shredded into jerky bits you just respawn. I would imagine that many characters would change the way they acted if the player knew that they would actually have to experience the feeling of torture along side their character when they spoke up to the wrong person. That goes for goodies & baddies. And, Just because you can battle epic creatures doesn't mean having your eyes plucked out while you live is not going to hurt, a lot.

This is just my attempt to get people to remember that their characters do have to feel pain and that the pain would be quite intimidating to most when confronted with the idea of being tortured, beaten or the like.

[NHmikey]

In reading this thread over it made me recall previous posts and frustrations by the player of Edward Lorkus about a year and a half ago.

He commented more than once as I recall of the frustrations he felt that other characters did not rp any fear whatsoever of his blatently vile, murderous, torturing, evil, and generally unpleasant character.

It had pretty much become an insult and piss off Lorkus fest at every opportunity (not that he didn't invite a lot of it) by people of all levels, from uber epics to lowbies.

The comment that Zodika makes

"Oh, I'm not scared of the psychopathic evil epic whatever"

immediately reminded me of the Lorkus situation.

Since respawn was only a button click away people did far more than they would have been willing to do realistically.

I mean, who wants to go spitting on the guy who will probably find you later and peel you like a grape?

[iangallowglas]

I remember Lorkus. He killed Seamus a couple times. Seamus hung out with an Ilmatari Paladin at the time (Talin). He knew that anytime he walked outside of town with Talin, that he might get killed by Edward. He feared him, and it's one of two reasons that Seamus has a deep seated hatred of Lovitarans.

Those experiences still linger in him, and show in his desire to learn about certain PCs habits and combat tactics, even though he's Epic. It's also one of the reasons he joined the Corp.

So maybe even if characters don't outwardly show their fear to a bad guy, they show it in the choices they make and their overall behavior. Unfortunately, the bad guy usually never finds this out, because who would want to tell a bad guy that he influenced their life.

[Thrym]

Disclaimer: If someone RPs slitting my character's throat, I'll have that work and him be dead, mostly because I don't want to put up with any whining from the throat slitter by actually asking for die rolls, but this is my opinion on the matter:


I don't think there is any reason to RP being stabbed with a knife or something any different out of combat then during combat.

Realism... ? Excuse me, this isn't reality, this is high level DnD. To use my own currently played character Brannon as an example, he has ~250 hit points. Being a wizard, he barely wears anything increasing his AC and has no idea how to defend himself in melee against epic swordmen. But he does have 26 con. Think about that for a moment - 26 con. That's a LOT. That's far, far beyond what any human who ever lived on earth ever had. If someone hits Brannon for 100 damage with a sword, it's not realistic that he barely avoids it despite not having the skill to do that in any way, and there's not enough luck in the world to survive that multiple times a day. What is 'realistic' is that he gets hit by the sword, and it simply fails to do much due to him being a superhumanly tough archmage decked in magic toughness enhancing stuff and spells that only add to the fact that being stabbed is an everyday occurence to him as an adventurer.

If we felt what our chars felt and someone stabbed Brannon with a non magical knife, barring a sneak attack, the pain I, the player, would feel would probably be the same as if the other player poked me with a toothpick, and gently at that. Probably less.

We aren't talking about average people here. We are not even talking about people that still qualify as 'human' by real world measurements here. 250 hp means you survive an average of ~18 seconds of full immersion in lava. It means you can jump from a skyscraper, brush yourself off, go to the elevator, drive up and do it again. Repeatedly.

For stuff that actually happens in game, it means you survive wizards calling down meteors to flatten you, dragons bigger then houses using you as a punching bag, marching through a blade barrier spell consisting of dozens of whirling swords, being zapped by epic lightning traps and hundreds upon hundreds of things no human being that ever lived could possibly survive. And all this is stuff epic PCs survive on a daily basis. Being stabbed with a knife hundred times? Real people have survived being stabbed with a knife 30+ times. There's no plausible reason for an epic DnD character not to survive 'a bit' more.

This is not 'real life', this is 3rd Edition DnD. High level 3rd Edition DnD. It's no gritty realistic system. A level 20 PC is not a realistic medieval warrior, he's the equivalent of a greek hero or a modern day superhero. If one wants a gritty, realistic setting, then 3rd Edition DnD simply is the completely and utterly wrong choice without heavy houseruling, unless you stay at single diggits levels. Low single diggits at that. As it is, if some guy with 10 str and a non magical knife tries to slit the throat of an epic char, there's a decent chance the knife won't manage to cut the skin decently and that it's simply not going to work, and that chance is how likely it is that said epic char will make a DC 10+2d4 fortitude saving throw against being coup de graced.

The problem there is not that it's unrealistic. The problem is that people think a level 20 DnD char is the equivalent of a well trained human, which is simply wrong. This problem is magnified in NWN, because where in pen and paper, level 20 chars tend to be rare, here on FRC they're everywhere.

The realism problem is a merely perceived one. Sure it'd hurt Mister level 20 fighter if you broke his fingers. 'Realistically' though, you'd probably need to smack his hand with a warhammer a dozen times for that to happen at all.

... and please, no one bother starting with all this 'HP aren't just your ability to withstand physical punishment', because even if they write that into the book somewhere, it's not true in the gameworld where someone with 200+ hp survives a red dragon grappling him and diving to the ground of a lava pit with him. There's far to much stuff you can't 'last second dodge' or survive by being lucky.

Remember people: High level third edition DnD. An epic warrior in it isn't Aragorn, he's Hercules, the Hulk or whatever nearly invulnerable juggernaut comes to mind.


--------------------


On another note, people not being scared is another perception problem. The person who thinks the other PC should be afraid of them basically demands the one to be scared to metagame that they are a PC.

Most PCs are adventurers. Those low level chars some people think they should be able to easily intimidate for some reason? They have probably faced minotaurs and ettins twice their size, vampires, hordes of orcs that outnumbered them ten to one and all kinds of other scary stuff. If they want to be scared of someone just because he's an evil priest who likes to kill and torture people, that's fine - but there is no actual reason for them to be particulary scared about someone who is just like those two dozen orc shamans they killed yesterday. The PC might be scared of an orc shaman, and then he'll be scared of an evil PC priest too. But if he's not scared about the orc, why would he be scared of the PC? Just because it's a PC?

edit: Spelling errors, tsk.

[The Supreme Watcher]

Thrym....


I concur.

[iangallowglas]

I have to agree with Thyrm on most of this. I've always thought of Epic DnD characters as being heroes like those found in Greek Epics ;D

Although I think that when a challenging fight for your character is an Ettin, the thought of a priest being able to make your insides turn to jelly without even touching you, or a wizard screaming at you causing you do die instantly is a reason to be afraid, whether they are a PC or not.

For an Epic..." eh, just another frost giant priestess and her goons."

[Lady Frost]

I honestly don't feel like arguing back and forth over all this so I will just say I do don't fully agree with everything, though, some points I understand.

Again, all I wanted to do was bring up that just because someone as a player may have a huge ego, or want to play their character as almighty, there are still scary things out there that your character should be scared of. They aren't immune to pain and fear (normally) and all I'm asking is that that is considered.

-Zoe

[soulfien]

Well, I agree with both viewpoints here.

1. I have a very high tolerance to pain. I've broken both ankles and continued on- not at the same time thank goodness. But one was a kid and the other as an adult- the one as a kid took a couple hours before I was on my feet again, but as an adult I was continuing on with a limp after 5 minutes.

I've broken other bones as well and haven't let them keep my down. I've never been one to be smart enough to go get a cast for a hairline fracture- I have had x-rays though and have been told that I've broken this bone or that bone.

This is how I see adventurers.

Now, as for Zodika's point.... I think she means more than just an injury.... pain can take on a whole new meaning when it crosses the torture line.... And that is VERY intimidating when promised by someone who has the look of someone who isn't bluffing.

[EDM Neo]

Just on a related note... some people need to remember that this should go both ways.

Even if they're technically protected by the law, I don't think openly evil characters should be completely without worry of vigilantes, lynch mobs, etc... just because their player knows that they can just respawn if they push someone too far and get hunted down after admitting to eating a puppy and animating the left overs as undead, or after it's leaked out that, yes, they were the one who tortured the lovable elderly granny, doesn't mean the character should always know the same.

Not at all that all evil characters (or even necessarily any current day villains, but there may still be a handful around) do this, I'm not pointing any fingers... but in the past, we have had some who openly flaunted their evilness to ridiculous levels, I think for the most part because they knew OOCly that there was nothing anyone could really do to stop them, because even if killed, they'd just respawn and be back to their open evilness within the day.

[Teneas]

If my pc is low level, then I will rp a lot more fear or even pain in their travels. Getting my high level rogue that has seen more humans that hate elves, or anything evil for that matter, to be scared...isn't going to happen easily. He has seen more RDD's, Thayans, Stupid evil, and all sorts of variety of enemies. Not to mention he is over a 100 years old. Pain is another thing, he has had himself eaten by goblins, head chopped off, an numerous other things happen. Think the thing is whether or not your pc is experienced enough.

Just because some people think that others should react differently towards pain, or their "scarrreyy" pcs, doesn't make it so. There are two sides of it. I know my char personally has seen more evil elf haters pass than how many cookies hins have seen in their lifetime.

Just rp people, and bear with the ones that don't meet your expectations, and I am sure they will bear with you for not meeting theirs. It's a video game, and if you don't move at somewhat a steady rate..some of these adventurers take hours and hours and hours.

Rp as well as you can, don't worry about others.

Edit: I have to admit that in my opinion most of the recent posts one rp, have revolved around PvP, and it bothers me. Yes, read close, most of these "issues" are only worried about for PvP, or extreme confrontation.

[ancientempathy]

I miss the days of giving the benefit-of-the-dout to your fellow community members as best you can.

[EDM Entori]

depends a lot on what the characters are able to do..

ent vs crom for example..

Crom could probably wade through huge amounts of enemies and Take most of them with him, should he falter.

ent however, being the ponce he is, if those fiends got +5 weapons, it's going to hurt, and he knows it!. same with magic.

Now where I disagree with thyrm above is given epic situations, the epic characters still march forth without fear.

Best person I've found to rp fear, or consequence was Beloril, not 100% of the time but instances. Beloril the character if faced with a major enemy knew his limits, and if they were being pushed, well he sat down and thanked corellon, drew a blade and hoped to all hell, he'd get through it.

another situation was, the silent dominion plot.

The maraliths, Entori sought to educate a few on the dangers. Some offered even in knowing that they are Demonic generals, and given the multitude that arkerenoes had with his orcs, there was considerable power. yet specific characters wished to defend a certain area alone with only a few other characters, vs getting many many npc's/pc's up to fight.

Big Fiends mean trouble, and lots of dark power.


....oh, and epic wizards near beholders..*nod nod* you watch em..Scary stuff!..

Same with demon liches, and liches/dragons, you piss off a dragon, you better win, or it is, and I'd expect it to, come for you and your own.

These are considerations epics should want.

Where their is epic goodies/badies, theirs Epic monsters to stomp on you. so fear and pain would be relative.

[Spooks]

I am currently toying with a Monk of Ilmater. With her, she can usually swallow the pain, from her training with the Order of the Broken Ones, but I was fighting an Ogre which hit me twice for about 14 damage each hit. knocked me down to 2 HP. I emoted falling to the ground as he died, immediately after the second blow, and just remained quiet. I let someone wrap me up in bandages, and I stood and *places her hands along her arm and in front of her shoulder, popping the joint back into place, with a sickening crack.* (since the ogre pretty much bashed down on her) Realistically, I'd imagine the damage was caused by massive trauma to her upper torso, but sometimes its hard to try and emulate that, because technically after the bandages were applied, I was at complete maximum health. Bandages wouldn't heal shattered bones, so I really just made an on spot decision to try an emulate it as a painful injury as opposed to a permanently crippling injury.

Now I know that I should RP pain, but... I just feel hazy as to what a devout Ilmatari Monk would let slip through her vow of suffering... would they let the inflicter of said pain -know- that they hurt her?

Thraden on the other hand doesnt usually get alot of damage done to him, but when an arrow crits him, or a friendly fire wand of cold hits him in the back, he screams in rage, as opposed to whimpering in pain... Would playing the Adrenaline side of focusing pain into anger be appropriate?

[Lady Frost]

Aug 14, 2009 22:02:45 GMT -5 Spooks said:

I am currently toying with a Monk of Ilmater. With her, she can usually swallow the pain, from her training with the Order of the Broken Ones, but I was fighting an Ogre which hit me twice for about 14 damage each hit. knocked me down to 2 HP. I emoted falling to the ground as he died, immediately after the second blow, and just remained quiet. I let someone wrap me up in bandages, and I stood and *places her hands along her arm and in front of her shoulder, popping the joint back into place, with a sickening crack.* (since the ogre pretty much bashed down on her) Realistically, I'd imagine the damage was caused by massive trauma to her upper torso, but sometimes its hard to try and emulate that, because technically after the bandages were applied, I was at complete maximum health. Bandages wouldn't heal shattered bones, so I really just made an on spot decision to try an emulate it as a painful injury as opposed to a permanently crippling injury.

Now I know that I should RP pain, but... I just feel hazy as to what a devout Ilmatari Monk would let slip through her vow of suffering... would they let the inflicter of said pain -know- that they hurt her?

Thraden on the other hand doesnt usually get alot of damage done to him, but when an arrow crits him, or a friendly fire wand of cold hits him in the back, he screams in rage, as opposed to whimpering in pain... Would playing the Adrenaline side of focusing pain into anger be appropriate?

First, I'd say Ilmater *twitch* is one of the few faiths that might allow a definite change to the way you accept and understand pain. The primary reason Loviatans hate Ilmatari, they are very resilient to pain.

As for the bandages not healing broken bones. I tend to RP bandages as not always "bandages". I RP "using bandages" as many things from resetting broken bones to knocking ice from someone who has recently fought something cold (something I got from Kethoth's player).

I'd say any reaction you want to have is your choice. I'm not telling anyone how they need to act only trying to get them to realize how they are reacting, and is it appropriate?

As I am not fluent in Ilmatari, I cannot say what a monk of Ilmater would show. Though I would not be against one being very hard to break.

As for Thraden, I don't see an issue to RP'ing the adrenaline because at least you are putting thought behind his actual reaction. Just as many grown people wouldn't cry from injuries I wouldn't expect an adventurer to. Though to receive an injury and to be pushing the border on being captured and tortured, your body disintegrated, or our soul pulled out through your nose is different at least me to in the realm of scary and intimidating.

Just because you can always respawn doesn't mean that should play into your characters reactions. I think there should always be some sort of "You know... This could be it. I might die".

[Munroe]

I don't understand why everyone only uses the bandages in their healing kits. I've always found the soothing salves, splints, and clamps come in handy too.

My point is just that the item isn't "bandages," it's a "healing kit," presumably a kit with an assortment of tools and implements for healing, not just a roll of gauze.

I know it does get emoted as bandages a lot.

I know this is an aside to the main conversation. Carry on.

[brian333]

My Lathanderite cleric has a single "Healing Kit" in which he stocks a lot of things, especially those handy magic healing oils he can toss on a fighter who's engaged with foes.

For my dwarven warrior it's linen bandages, and lots of them! Something hurt? Wrap more bandages around it!

I suppose I've always worried less about the mechanics of the kit itself than about the character who is using it.

[The Supreme Watcher]

Zodika, I think what you're overlooking here is that yes, torture is a very frightening concept, and it's a horrible thing to do to someone, but...

Well, when you have fortitude saves over 20, have survived a hundred Horrid Wilting spells, been bathed in fire by a thousand fireballs, been struck with the wrath of the gods themselves, gotten stomped on, swatted, around, ripped in two, and gobbled up by a dragon...

Well, someone cutting you slowly with a knife is no longer what one would call "intimidating." Pulling your fingernails out isn't "agonizing."

When Garum was a low level character, he was tortured, and it has made a large impact on his character. But... if he was tortured these days, I would roll a strength check to break the ropes and then he'd strangle the idiot trying to do it to him.

If you want to torture an epic, be prepared for them to say "You think this can hurt me?" And if that doesn't sit well, then... don't torture epics! There are much more eligible, wimpy n00bz out there, who haven't gotten their jaws broken a million times by giants, white slaads, dragons, manticores, treants, illithids, drow, orogs, ogres, forest goblins, werewolves, etcetera etcetera into oblivion.

[Lady Frost]

Aug 15, 2009 11:33:22 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

Zodika, I think what you're overlooking here is that yes, torture is a very frightening concept, and it's a horrible thing to do to someone, but...

Well, when you have fortitude saves over 20, have survived a hundred Horrid Wilting spells, been bathed in fire by a thousand fireballs, been struck with the wrath of the gods themselves, gotten stomped on, swatted, around, ripped in two, and gobbled up by a dragon...

Well, someone cutting you slowly with a knife is no longer what one would call "intimidating." Pulling your fingernails out isn't "agonizing."

When Garum was a low level character, he was tortured, and it has made a large impact on his character. But... if he was tortured these days, I would roll a strength check to break the ropes and then he'd strangle the idiot trying to do it to him.

If you want to torture an epic, be prepared for them to say "You think this can hurt me?" And if that doesn't sit well, then... don't torture epics! There are much more eligible, wimpy n00bz out there, who haven't gotten their jaws broken a million times by giants, white slaads, dragons, manticores, treants, illithids, drow, orogs, ogres, forest goblins, werewolves, etcetera etcetera into oblivion.

I personally disagree a lot with this line of thought.

[The Flying Ve]

Aug 15, 2009 11:59:22 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

Aug 15, 2009 11:33:22 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

Zodika, I think what you're overlooking here is that yes, torture is a very frightening concept, and it's a horrible thing to do to someone, but...

Well, when you have fortitude saves over 20, have survived a hundred Horrid Wilting spells, been bathed in fire by a thousand fireballs, been struck with the wrath of the gods themselves, gotten stomped on, swatted, around, ripped in two, and gobbled up by a dragon...

Well, someone cutting you slowly with a knife is no longer what one would call "intimidating." Pulling your fingernails out isn't "agonizing."

When Garum was a low level character, he was tortured, and it has made a large impact on his character. But... if he was tortured these days, I would roll a strength check to break the ropes and then he'd strangle the idiot trying to do it to him.

If you want to torture an epic, be prepared for them to say "You think this can hurt me?" And if that doesn't sit well, then... don't torture epics! There are much more eligible, wimpy n00bz out there, who haven't gotten their jaws broken a million times by giants, white slaads, dragons, manticores, treants, illithids, drow, orogs, ogres, forest goblins, werewolves, etcetera etcetera into oblivion.

I personally disagree a lot with this line of thought.

As do I. Torture is not about pain, primarily, but making the subject feel helpless and subjugating it to the torturer's will. The use of pain is merely a means to an end and on characters that are used to physical pain, be it that they are epic adventurers or were raised by panthers who like to play rough(ahem, hehe), the psychological levers are much more effective.

F.ex., Sarduk's reaction to a certain story Garum told in the wheel would well be one of those levers that could mess him up completely, were it to fall into the wrong hands. Same goes for, say, certain parts of Garum's history. What would happen, f.ex., were he forced to relive his past torturing session exactly as it happened? Meeting Torias pretty much screwed him up entirely for an entire evening, what if the hin started following him around every day, leaving little notes on his pillow and other fun things like that?

There's more than one way to skin a goat, same goes for torture. It's not the pain, it's the psychological effects of it that break a person and that can be done entirely without physical pain or at least feeling it.

[Lokarn]

Everyone is afraid of something, and everyone feels pain when they get impaled through the spine.

Question is, what is -your- character afraid of, to what degree. What causes your character pain, and to what degree, and does it make sense?

Your epic fighter might have a high fort save, but don't broken bones heal funny sometimes? Mabey those old injuries hurt when it's cold outside.... What if a mage froze your leg and then tapped on it with a hammer hundreds of times till it fractured, then they thawed it out slowly.... Mmmmm mushy.

Then again, mabey you're Grum and you wanted pudding anyway.

[basilisk]

I agree with the above 2 (3?) posts, everyone is afraid of something and everyone can get hurt. The trick is finding out what the fear is and how best to hurt someone.

Maybe someone's had their arms and belly so beat up that running a knife over it wouldn't be that bad but since that same person wears a helmet their ears/nose/eyelids aren't used to being harmed and so are more tender.

Same with fear. Some people might not fear pain or even fear death to some extent but maybe they fear being poor, being crippled, anything like that.

If you plan on inflicting pain/fear on a person and its not working it might be best to try something different before assuming they aren't reacting correctly.

[EDM Entori]

Hit points (HP) are a measure of a character's vitality and health and are determined by the class, level and constitution of each character. They can be temporarily lost when a character sustains wounds in combat or otherwise comes to harm, and loss of HP is the most common way for a character to die in the game.


.. so yeah sure your EPIC has lots of hp, and high fort saves. but theres vitality..


if one gets trapped and is cut on repeatedly along with other magical things, I don't care who or what you are.

just cause your character sheet says EPIC, doesn't mean your a god. even still..

this is DND now, God's die, GOD's hurt. etc...

I think the torture would be cranked up a notch? yes, but it's sort of like domination in a way... *rolls will* ..*fail* your MINE!..

I'd guess every act of torture would require a roll, Depending on a method you'd get a modifier against your will.

Darkharp actually has a section on tools at what they do if I am not mistaken..

*looks at huge forum* find the isle with dragon lore hang a right.. down that way..

[The Supreme Watcher]

The thread was originally about fear and pain, the correlation of them, and it's gotten of track.

However, I'll continue.

So you say that torture is not about the pain. Alright, I'll play this game.

Take the same epic fighter, with intimidate scores, a bunch of will save feats, etcetera, who has shaken off the effects of dragonfear, epic wizards' Frighten spells, the fear auras of a thousand mummies...

Wait, sounds to me like these characters are still pretty damned resilient.

You say that torture is about "breaking someone," so I ask you, how can you break someone who is unbreakable? How can you top watching his friends get mangled? How can you top the psychological effects of a dragonfear aura? How can you possibly surpass the frightening presence of the living dead?

The short answer: you can't.

The long answer: Despite the futility of it, you desparately attempt to use otherworldly means to break this person. You cast negative energy spells to weaken their resolve. You hit them with fear spells. You slowly sap away their strength and skill with your magic, or your poison, or whatever you're using.

Despite all of that, however, you are doing -nothing- they haven't dealt with and overcome in their career as an epic character. You could even start murdering the people closest to them in front of their eyes, but still, it's just something they've had to deal with before.

Through the medium of Neverwinter Nights, it is impossible for torture to be a prevalent, useful method of gathering information. When every one is level 20, it doesn't make level 20s weaker. A level 20 is still a level 20 character. End of story. Were FRC a different place, with lower average level, I would say go for it, torture the living crap out of everyone you want.

However, these are transcendent beings who are less men and women, and more walking deities - a level 20 cleric is the aspect of his Lord's divine will; a level 20 wizard is a being of omnipotent Weave mastery; a level 20 sorcerer is a beacon of absolute power; a level 20 fighter is a whirlwind of overbearing might; a level 20 rogue is a silent, invisible, death-dealing ghost.

It goes on and on. By the time your character has reached epic levels, I don't think torture is even a factor in their minds - it's just another day at the office for them, another obstacle to be trampled, hurdled, or zapped out of existence.

Kthx.