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Post by The Flying Ve on Aug 15, 2009 15:47:52 GMT -5
A couple of methods to break an "unbreakable" one: 1) Frustration: Everyone has goals. Shift them a bit, push a lever here and there and make them seem attainable, but never let him attain them. Think "Tantalus" and "Sisyphus". Sure, he's going to keep trying again and again and again, but when said goals are just inside his grasp, but he -never- achieves them and, say, far "inferior" people do easily because you push things in their favour, that's going to burn. 2)Conscience: Every character has scruples, taboos, things he won't do. Trick him into breaking them, maybe even willingly. Dominate person on someone he loves and force him to kill that person, eventually, after a period of weeks where that person rips his mind into shreds. Or quickly, and publicly condemn him for the deed afterward. 3)Humiliation: Ridicule can burn. Buff up that goblin and hand it a dev. crit keen weapon, then have the tribe attack him while he's training his apprentice. Listen to his stories and laugh your rear end off in disbelief, have bards make tales of how big a fool he is etc. That will cut deeper that skinning him alive. Those three are just off the top of my head. Yes, straight up "torture" in the cliche sense of the word may not work, but torture is just another mindgame and when you've got a psychological wreck after a while, you can get anything out of him or her. It's ugly, vicious and personally not something I'd RP without very explicit consent, but that's how, hypothetically, it may work. It's not fun for a lot of people though, so, um, keep that in mind,mmkay?  I do, however, agree on the resilience against physical pain. By my own personal experience: You get cut and your bones broken often enough, you stop caring about it and feeling it. It's more the fact that you got cut or had accident X that bugs you than the actual injury. |
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dakari
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Post by dakari on Aug 15, 2009 16:02:10 GMT -5
*chuckles* I agree with you Garum all the things you said there. Hard to affect someone that is seasoned which is why usually epics go look after someone perhaps never seen a mage turn into a dragon or seen a undead creature never seen before.
But I do like the idea there of spells though sure you have shaked off fear and dragon fear (like that reference makes sense) but just saying a well played mage might start striping garum down mentally some mind fog spells and morts and so forth till he is so low in saves that finally they fear him say. A well played mage might say now Garum shall peel back those layers of walls that have protected you so long and get to what that little boy feared...muhhhawwwwa.
As for the earlier post of bad folks just respawn after death and go on with evil well thats different type all together, should be accountablity to what actions you took to someone. Respawning and basically reset your character and start over and repeat is weak roleplay at its best in my opinion.
Last lets face it ic things happen people not blink an eye for some reason, example a gnome well in frc a bit oddity since not see many. People look oh its a gnome...think ic strange not see many around here. Same with dwarves use to be alot now few , thuink where all the dwarves gone ic odd. never understood how oddities are just passed as fact for some reason. Someone summons a familiar or summons just okay lets go. never heard someone say hells thats a death slaad , just accepted. Always thought it odd but never said anything ooc , ic a mention it but thats about it.
Dakari
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Post by ashaffer on Aug 15, 2009 17:33:19 GMT -5
I'd like to remind everyone that the person initiating a torture session needs to have the absolute consent of the person who is being tortured... And that you must respect the wishes of the player who wants nothing to do with torture RP. Many players feel that they have no choice but to RP torture because they think that there is no way for their PC to get out of the situation they're in. This is untrue. If you are uncomfortable with torture RP you have the right to tell the player initiating it "NO" and that should be the end of it.
PCs who are torturing other people for the pure enjoyment of it should find another person who is into that, and not harass the people who are not. To me, it's unacceptable to try to force someone to do something they don't want any part of, and even worse not to find out beforehand if they consent to the torture at all.
On a side note, I'd like to point out that people playing evil PCs who voice the sentiment that they want others to "fear" their PC always seem to end up having this bite them in the ass. If you're going around flaunting how evil you are you're only going to convince other PCs that you need to be taken out. |
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Post by Lokarn on Aug 15, 2009 23:30:35 GMT -5
I'd like to remind everyone that the person initiating a torture session needs to have the absolute consent of the person who is being tortured... And that you must respect the wishes of the player who wants nothing to do with torture RP. Many players feel that they have no choice but to RP torture because they think that there is no way for their PC to get out of the situation they're in. This is untrue. If you are uncomfortable with torture RP you have the right to tell the player initiating it "NO" and that should be the end of it.
PCs who are torturing other people for the pure enjoyment of it should find another person who is into that, and not harass the people who are not. To me, it's unacceptable to try to force someone to do something they don't want any part of, and even worse not to find out beforehand if they consent to the torture at all.
On a side note, I'd like to point out that people playing evil PCs who voice the sentiment that they want others to "fear" their PC always seem to end up having this bite them in the ass. If you're going around flaunting how evil you are you're only going to convince other PCs that you need to be taken out. This thread is not an IC thread, as such there are no characters "going around asking to be feared" The topic is being discussed between players and should not make any PC's decide anyone needs to be taken out. I would hope as mature gamers we can all separate what our character knows from what we as players read in a discussion on the forums. |
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Post by ashaffer on Aug 16, 2009 4:16:24 GMT -5
This thread is not an IC thread, as such there are no characters "going around asking to be feared" The topic is being discussed between players and should not make any PC's decide anyone needs to be taken out. I would hope as mature gamers we can all separate what our character knows from what we as players read in a discussion on the forums. Huh... I do not recall saying that I was responding to anything anyone had specifically said, nor that I was doing it IC. If you truly think this is what I was doing, then you are sadly mistaken.
My "people playing evil PCs who voice the sentiment that they want others to fear their PC" comment was made on a side note, and I certainly did not suggest that people should go after someone doing that. I was simply speaking from experience since I've seen it before, and know that's exactly what will happen. Perhaps someone will learn from this, and save themselves a world of trouble. Or not. It's no skin off my back if they do, or don't. |
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Post by Spooks on Aug 16, 2009 11:41:15 GMT -5
An example of trying to find someones fears...
I DMed on Ravenloft a while back, and I had to oversee a couple torture sessions to make sure they didnt get out of hand.
Well some of the players really only did minor things, but a couple nice examples were worth remembering. We had people interrogate a criminal while they slowly dripped oil on them, while they were standing and bound. The torturers then had a gutter carved into the floor, with a torch sitting at the end. the oil would cover their body, and eventually drip into the gutter, and down into the torch, which would then travel back up and catch the victim completely on fire. I don't care how epic you are, but unless you are immune to fire, noone can try and tough out being burned alive. And trying to stay courageous when you know there is nothing you can do to prevent said burning, and that it was only a matter of time... They'd probably crack from the stress.
Torture two people at the same time, preferably "lovers" and slowly torture one or the other. Gouge out eyes, break fingers, and heck if you're really depraved, start pulling a hannibal lector and eat the things you remove. If you reveal psychotic behavior, they will realize they cant try and talk sense into you, and that removes hope, since you're not the average logically thinking person.
If they seriously don't RP fear appropriately, then just try to deal, but at the very least if its properly done, you can't deny that you put in some quality RP, and it tested your creative limits. That should be reward enough that you painted an inspiring scene for everyoe to enjoy, even if the other participants aren't quite up to the same level of RP.
Just enjoy yourself, and take everything with a grain of salt.
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Post by EDM Neo on Aug 16, 2009 11:59:57 GMT -5
I'd like to remind everyone that the person initiating a torture session needs to have the absolute consent of the person who is being tortured... And that you must respect the wishes of the player who wants nothing to do with torture RP. Many players feel that they have no choice but to RP torture because they think that there is no way for their PC to get out of the situation they're in. This is untrue. If you are uncomfortable with torture RP you have the right to tell the player initiating it "NO" and that should be the end of it.
PCs who are torturing other people for the pure enjoyment of it should find another person who is into that, and not harass the people who are not. To me, it's unacceptable to try to force someone to do something they don't want any part of, and even worse not to find out beforehand if they consent to the torture at all. Just quickly seconding this... if you enjoy roleplaying a torturer, and find a "victim" who either OOCly enjoys it or at least OOCly doesn't mind it, that's great... just so long as no one's being forced into situations they're OOCly uncomfortable with, and as long as they aren't labeled as being as a "poor roleplayer" or anything else along those lines because of it. Oh, and, also, just along with the whole fear thing, and epicness versus fear of pain and torture... I think there are actually rules for this, not that I remember them exactly off the top of my head. Basically, the torturer makes an intimidate check (plus various modifiers for "tools," etc) against a DC determined by the victim's HD (basically level - how "epic" they are) and wisdom score (plus various modifiers)... success means they "broke" the victim, failure means they didn't, and I'm sure there are rules for attempting to bluff the torturer, break the bonds, etc. At the players' discretion, this could be accompanied with actually playing out the torture session "on camera," or it can be just rolls and say the rest happens off camera, for the squeamish (or those who don't mind the thought of their character being tortured, but who don't actually want to play through it). I don't know the actual formulas off the top of my head, but someone else can probably post them. I think they were originally in the Book of Vile Darkness (a 3.0 book, not 3.5), I'm not sure if they were updated anywhere. |
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Post by The Flying Ve on Aug 16, 2009 12:05:34 GMT -5
I'd like to remind everyone that the person initiating a torture session needs to have the absolute consent of the person who is being tortured... And that you must respect the wishes of the player who wants nothing to do with torture RP. Many players feel that they have no choice but to RP torture because they think that there is no way for their PC to get out of the situation they're in. This is untrue. If you are uncomfortable with torture RP you have the right to tell the player initiating it "NO" and that should be the end of it.
PCs who are torturing other people for the pure enjoyment of it should find another person who is into that, and not harass the people who are not. To me, it's unacceptable to try to force someone to do something they don't want any part of, and even worse not to find out beforehand if they consent to the torture at all. Just quickly seconding this... if you enjoy roleplaying a torturer, and find a "victim" who either OOCly enjoys it or at least OOCly doesn't mind it, that's great... just so long as no one's being forced into situations they're OOCly uncomfortable with, and as long as they aren't labeled as being as a "poor roleplayer" or anything else along those lines because of it. I explicitly ask, quite bluntly, so the message gets across, before I do something that people may object to strongly. I have my own fine lines as well and expect the same from others. Course, if I already know a player is cool with something, I'm not one to ask ten times  If I know a player will not be cool with something along those lines, I don't do it in their presence or, if it's absolutely necessary, do a bit of a fade to black and handle it in a sentence or so. |
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Post by EDM Entori on Aug 16, 2009 12:12:43 GMT -5
The thread was originally about fear and pain, the correlation of them, and it's gotten of track. However, I'll continue. So you say that torture is not about the pain. Alright, I'll play this game. Take the same epic fighter, with intimidate scores, a bunch of will save feats, etcetera, who has shaken off the effects of dragonfear, epic wizards' Frighten spells, the fear auras of a thousand mummies... Wait, sounds to me like these characters are still pretty damned resilient. You say that torture is about "breaking someone," so I ask you, how can you break someone who is unbreakable? How can you top watching his friends get mangled? How can you top the psychological effects of a dragonfear aura? How can you possibly surpass the frightening presence of the living dead? The short answer: you can't. The long answer: Despite the futility of it, you desparately attempt to use otherworldly means to break this person. You cast negative energy spells to weaken their resolve. You hit them with fear spells. You slowly sap away their strength and skill with your magic, or your poison, or whatever you're using. Despite all of that, however, you are doing -nothing- they haven't dealt with and overcome in their career as an epic character. You could even start murdering the people closest to them in front of their eyes, but still, it's just something they've had to deal with before. Through the medium of Neverwinter Nights, it is impossible for torture to be a prevalent, useful method of gathering information. When every one is level 20, it doesn't make level 20s weaker. A level 20 is still a level 20  character. End of story. Were FRC a different place, with lower average level, I would say go for it, torture the living crap out of everyone you want. However, these are transcendent beings who are less men and women, and more walking deities - a level 20 cleric is the aspect of his Lord's divine will; a level 20 wizard is a being of omnipotent Weave mastery; a level 20 sorcerer is a beacon of absolute power; a level 20 fighter is a whirlwind of overbearing might; a level 20 rogue is a silent, invisible, death-dealing ghost. It goes on and on. By the time your character has reached epic levels, I don't think torture is even a factor in their minds - it's just another day at the office for them, another obstacle to be trampled, hurdled, or zapped out of existence. Kthx. what if your torturer is equally epic? |
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Post by Lady Frost on Aug 17, 2009 2:41:40 GMT -5
What would that make a level 20 priestess of Loviatar or Bane or Cyric? By your definitions... that sounds pretty scary to me.
As Entori said:
You may think of your character as an epic badda** but for as hard as your character has worked to get there, there and characters that have worked just as hard to be able to break them. Characters may get supernatural powers but shouldn't that mean characters get supernatural ways of breaking them too?
EDIT: Right... what Ent said above. (forgot to read this page before posting)
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Post by Lady Frost on Aug 17, 2009 2:59:29 GMT -5
I'd like to remind everyone that the person initiating a torture session needs to have the absolute consent of the person who is being tortured... And that you must respect the wishes of the player who wants nothing to do with torture RP. Many players feel that they have no choice but to RP torture because they think that there is no way for their PC to get out of the situation they're in. This is untrue. If you are uncomfortable with torture RP you have the right to tell the player initiating it "NO" and that should be the end of it.
PCs who are torturing other people for the pure enjoyment of it should find another person who is into that, and not harass the people who are not. To me, it's unacceptable to try to force someone to do something they don't want any part of, and even worse not to find out beforehand if they consent to the torture at all.
On a side note, I'd like to point out that people playing evil PCs who voice the sentiment that they want others to "fear" their PC always seem to end up having this bite them in the ass. If you're going around flaunting how evil you are you're only going to convince other PCs that you need to be taken out. If this was, in a roundabout way, directed towards Zoe and I. I understand and would always respect someone wishes and boundaries. Though, I don't believe this rule keeps your character from actually being tortured, only the player from having to RP it. Right? Otherwise that sounds kinda silly and everyone would be "against it". |
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Post by ashaffer on Aug 17, 2009 4:23:23 GMT -5
If this was, in a roundabout way, directed towards Zoe and I. I understand and would always respect someone wishes and boundaries. Though, I don't believe this rule keeps your character from actually being tortured, only the player from having to RP it. Right? Otherwise that sounds kinda silly and everyone would be "against it". No, this was directed at EVERYONE who would initiate torture... And, yes, it does keep a person's character from being tortured. Especially in the case of torture for pleasure. If you do not believe me, then you can ask the DM Team to clarify the rule for you.
I personally would only allow torture to be performed on any of my PCs if it were for a totally valid reason, with absolutely NO RP of any of it, and only under the supervision of a trusted DM. It would basically be very cut and dried. If that would diminish the "fun" of anyone who likes to RP torture, too bad. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 5:42:15 GMT -5
Personally, i think this entire debate is pointless.
Yes, i have been in a couple of torture scenes where my character suffered at the hands of his foe. Yes my character has been present when others where tortured. Everytime there was a VALID rp reason and it went along fine.
But, in most cases people who hold vital information your character wants, when tortured, wont reveal any of it anyway. The feeblest of fortitude rolls suddenly makes a character a complete god and immune to all types of pain. Then you get the characters who follow a god who believes in inflicting pain on the world. In this case, you hit the same wall. The victim is completey immune to all types of pain and you end up thinking WTF? They gave permission...
And the answer to 'why is this?' NOBODY enjoys playing graphic scenes where there characters are suffering. NOBODY likes to rp out that level of pain. The same goes with fear. And the reason for this is simple, people play here to get away from pain and fears they hold in their real lives.
Moving on, PVP is the same. Nobody likes to back down or be humiliated by a stronger opponeant. PVP should also have to be consented to in my oppinion. Somes days you thing 'Yeah, that could actually be fun'. Other days you might think 'No, i am really not in the mood today'. And sometimes the rp reasons for the pvp are just bull. And alot of the time, confrontation comes to down to who has the bigger stick.
I guess what i am trying to say is this, nobody wants to come into a virtual world to play out negative emotions. There are enough of them in the real world to deal with. And as such, they will always be immune to everything you can throw at them in such a scene. People would much rather sit around getting pixel humped smeling daffodils. And arguments like this will never be settled. It is the same with the good and evil argument. It is the same with the balancing the classes debate.
Sorry if this is a little incoherent, remember people, never post while tired.
~Sioladuil
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Post by The Flying Ve on Aug 17, 2009 10:09:50 GMT -5
And the answer to 'why is this?' NOBODY enjoys playing graphic scenes where there characters are suffering. NOBODY likes to rp out that level of pain. The same goes with fear. And the reason for this is simple, people play here to get away from pain and fears they hold in their real lives. Actually I do enjoy those scenes because it makes a good story. Then again, I've watched just about every horror and gore movie I could get my hands on and been...bored. I find that incredibly boring and disgusting, but am unfortunately forced to agree. I do, however, think that if torture(the bad guy's favourite tool) does not work, neither should smite evil or protection from evil. In the interest of fair play, of course. No, this was directed at EVERYONE who would initiate torture... And, yes, it does keep a person's character from being tortured. Especially in the case of torture for pleasure. If you do not believe me, then you can ask the DM Team to clarify the rule for you. So basically you're saying you(as in a general you sense, not a specific personal one) have a get out of jail free card from being a total flap-yo-mouth-yo to badguy X because of your interpretation of the rules? That seems wrong to me, but unfortunately, I've come across players who see it the same way. I prefer not to play with them, really. They diminish my RP experience. Not because I like torture, but because they play like they know they can get away with anything(incidentally, the same goes for players with epic friends or family members, up to the point of running to the DM team for myself metaing and actually doing everything to leave them a way out once I learned they don't like PvP. In retrospect, I should have just killed the character in one round and been done with it. I also will not be so considerate in the future again. Being nice just bites you in the backside). I'm not saying you do, I'd just rather not risk it and be entirely annoyed at some point. Hence: Define "totally valid reason". I'm just curious, really. And a bit bored |
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Post by Dachshund on Aug 17, 2009 10:24:20 GMT -5
Keep the conversation/discussion civil or I'm locking the thread. The DM Q&A has a clarification for the debate about torture. Read it if you are unclear about the definition of the rule on Torture and Cybersex.
Thank you.
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Post by The Flying Ve on Aug 17, 2009 10:40:24 GMT -5
Keep the conversation/discussion civil or I'm locking the thread. The DM Q&A has a clarification for the debate about torture. Read it if you are unclear about the definition of the rule on Torture and Cybersex. Thank you. You posted that as I typed actually.  *dulls claws of vicious debate on personal scratchpole* I have a follow-up question out of this debate actually, considering my own rather loose def. of "torture"....pming. |
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Post by Grozer on Aug 17, 2009 11:52:21 GMT -5
As I read through this thread, trying not to chime in, I almost have to laugh. First I dont think the intention had anything to do with violating a rule, those folks that -I know- play evil are quite aware of the rule which means we cannot just haphazardly commit tortorous acts without a "player's" ooc consent. In fact, most I have talked with always discuss the matter in detail oocly first before even going down this path.
I believe Zodika's point was more about how "fearless" most PCs seem to be. This being similar to the whole debate about how intimidating a PC is, etc, etc. Zodika sorry to say (although I agree with you), Sio is right, you are wasting your effort. Most players will have a myriad of reasons about how their PCs will never be intimidated, feel fear or react to pain.
Personally, I have always felt that giving our characters certain weaknesses or making them more "human" so to speak creates a more realistic character even when they are epic. Even as powerful as Ranan has become, he still feels fear and pain... and yes there are times when he can be intimidated. Epic does not equate immortal. And while some epic characters can run through any area of FRC and not have much of a problem I start to wonder then whats the point?
I also get a good chuckle when I hear the argument that epics are considered super heroes taking on all walks of bad creatures and surviving which only serves to make them immune.... it makes me wonder why any intelligent creature would choose to live nearby, why hasnt the underdark been cleared for Adventurer Vacation Homes and the frozen mountains been turned into ski resorts.
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Aug 17, 2009 13:42:23 GMT -5
I also get a good chuckle when I hear the argument that epics are considered super heroes taking on all walks of bad creatures and surviving which only serves to make them immune.... it makes me wonder why any intelligent creature would choose to live nearby, why hasnt the underdark been cleared for Adventurer Vacation Homes and the frozen mountains been turned into ski resorts. Because FRC and NWN has an inflated, ridiciulous amount of epic characters walking around. Were there this many characters of epic level in the Forgotten Realms setting, then certainly we would see a huge shift in that universe. Remember, Grozer, that NWN was never intended to support Persistent Worlds, and, in fact, they're a totally player-made feature (which is why so many hoops have to be jumped through in order for a PW to exist, why we log in to the welcome area every time the server resets, etcetera), and as such, the challenges one can create were never intended to allow people to reach level 40. The easy solution to epic characters mucking everything up is a cap at 20 and much reduced experience (but no one will agree with me on that). Until we see a drastic shift in average character level (I'm pretty sure it was around level 7 when I started here, now it's about level 18), then people will have to put aside their wishes of torturing fighters who can break adamantine chains, wizards who can turn said chains in to snakes to attack the torturer, and rogues who can escape the grip of a frost giant with one skill check. In my opinion. Also, I will never have Garum look like John McCain. |
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Post by Munroe on Aug 17, 2009 15:13:39 GMT -5
torturing fighters who can break adamantine chains Given some of the DCs I've seen for just breaking mundane locks and chains in D&D, I'm inclined to say a fighter would have a very tough time breaking adamantine chains. Regular, non-adamantine chain has a break DC of 26. |
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Post by soulfien on Aug 17, 2009 16:04:08 GMT -5
even epics have their weaknesses.
Even they can be broken.
Even Elminster was nearly destroyed mentally with a single spell by an arch devil when he was in hell ( I personally hate Ed Greenwood's writing and how stupid the rescue of Elminster was, but I did enjoy the torment the epic wizard endured).
Take Kelric. He is very high level, yet I bet if my wizard wished he could strip away his defenses, cut open his mind, and attack it with nightmare after nightmare with the right spells.
Or strap down Darina and show her what pain really is.
No one is safe or immortal.
Trust me. Like Grozer said, we all have our weaknesses and our fears.
Epic or not.
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vulpex
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Equites fennorum
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Post by vulpex on Aug 17, 2009 16:32:02 GMT -5
I would not want people to be either hunter or pray, kin or cattle.
Epic level torturer is as brittle as being as his subject. It would be different if we allowed monster PCs. It goes both ways.
Of course everyone should rp fear of death, maiming and pain. We can say that epic characters are superhuman, well they are, but man is only made of flesh.
I think expecting fear would not make sense, since common known evildoers would have hard time with law, Cormyr is quite lawfull place.
But being of law, mentioned evils also have protection of law, untill proven otherwise, which would go with any paladin too.
What happens with torturer and subject out of eyes of law is another thing and anything could happen.
Of course it is different thing if torture/murder/opression like game is wanted by community.
I for one was for quite long on one place where the real thing really was who humiliates whom.
Edit: Posting Drunk
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Post by Grozer on Aug 17, 2009 16:54:34 GMT -5
I think expecting fear would not make sense, since common known evildoers would have hard time with law, Cormyr is quite lawfull place. Not sure if you meant it to be read this way Vulpex your comment made me think of something... in all honestly a couple of the epic level evildoers should they band together and "attempt" it could literally level all NPC war wizards and PDK. In speaking from experience here and having spawn after spawn of uncontrolled NPC PDKs attack two nameless characters were cut down with ease, so based on everything I am reading those evils should not at all fear the Crown right? Since they obviously cant stop them. Before I get jumped for that reasoning keep in mind I know that isnt the case. I realize "controlled" NPCs would be a much harder fight, I understand that the DM could have spawned 100's more... but thats my point. Just because epic PCs can run over any encounter they face in the mod doesnt mean they are invincible it just means they known how to beat the monster AI. |
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Post by Grozer on Aug 17, 2009 17:02:53 GMT -5
I also get a good chuckle when I hear the argument that epics are considered super heroes taking on all walks of bad creatures and surviving which only serves to make them immune.... it makes me wonder why any intelligent creature would choose to live nearby, why hasnt the underdark been cleared for Adventurer Vacation Homes and the frozen mountains been turned into ski resorts. Because FRC and NWN has an inflated, ridiciulous amount of epic characters walking around. Were there this many characters of epic level in the Forgotten Realms setting, then certainly we would see a huge shift in that universe. Remember, Grozer, that NWN was never intended to support Persistent Worlds, and, in fact, they're a totally player-made feature (which is why so many hoops have to be jumped through in order for a PW to exist, why we log in to the welcome area every time the server resets, etcetera), and as such, the challenges one can create were never intended to allow people to reach level 40. I am well aware of that fact. But personally just because an epic can run around and beat random encounters without blinking isnt enough reason to "feel immortal" or be a "super hero". I would venture to bet if DMs controlled some of these encounters the epics wouldnt have such an easy time. Take dragon's for example... the standard AI doesnt do an ancient dragon justice. Even beyond that in my opinion, I do my best not to let game mechanics dictate RP. So just because Ranan can solo while strolling through the underdark doesnt make him invincible and doesnt mean he isnt fearful of being caught. Each to their own, but I find little fun in playing a god. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 17:13:03 GMT -5
Because FRC and NWN has an inflated, ridiciulous amount of epic characters walking around. Were there this many characters of epic level in the Forgotten Realms setting, then certainly we would see a huge shift in that universe. Remember, Grozer, that NWN was never intended to support Persistent Worlds, and, in fact, they're a totally player-made feature (which is why so many hoops have to be jumped through in order for a PW to exist, why we log in to the welcome area every time the server resets, etcetera), and as such, the challenges one can create were never intended to allow people to reach level 40. I am well aware of that fact. But personally just because an epic can run around and beat random encounters without blinking isnt enough reason to "feel immortal" or be a "super hero". I would venture to bet if DMs controlled some of these encounters the epics wouldnt have such an easy time. Take dragon's for example... the standard AI doesnt do an ancient dragon justice. Even beyond that in my opinion, I do my best not to let game mechanics dictate RP. So just because Ranan can solo while strolling through the underdark doesnt make him invincible and doesnt mean he isnt fearful of being caught. Each to their own, but I find little fun in playing a god. I quite agree with the dragons comment..and I know that catmage echoes this sentiment as well. If anyone doubts the rather poor reflection of a dragon that NWN AI produces, just take a look at my latest work in the Wyrms of the North section under the Draconomicon of FRC in Lore of the Lands. It certainly isn't typical that a band of adventurers will waltz in and just mop up the floor with a super genius being who is hundreds of years old. Anyhow, enough on that topic....I could probably rant for hours about dragons versus PCs. The players in my 4 year running FR campaign faced 1 dragon when they were all 14th level, and I sent them running. All of their characters are scarred from the trauma to this day. Edit: I guess it is applicable, and not just a rant, since this entire party of now near epic players now trembles at the mention of a dragon. This is due to 1) The massive PAIN I laid down on them, and 2) A healthy FEAR of exactly what a fully prepared wyrm in it's lair can do to an adventuring party. |
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Post by catmage on Aug 17, 2009 17:20:51 GMT -5
Go go DM only lich/demilich/dragon spawns! I bet you the epics of the server would learn about fear and pain if they face down an ancient red dragon that's smart enough to run off when reduced to badly wounded, and attack again later in the trip, or that was equipped with combat gear that dragons of such power could get a hold of. And want to face the same lich you killed a hundred times if -it- had +12 int from gear and the same spells at the ready as a PC adventurer? You know Urog would likely hear those mummies getting whupped on before anyone got to him, if he was a real wizard and not stuck to appear when you hit that invisible spawn trigger.
Sorry, not exactly the main point of the post, but, in a way it is. Players too often take for granted that a dragonor a lich is HORRIBLE DOOM THING! that should not be dismissed. Everytime I hear "Oh, we went and faced the dragon again. We didn't win, but we'll get him next time" or "Pfft, you're afraid of a few vampires? I've faced over a hundred of them in the cyrpts near yadda yadda or blah blah blah, and the liches that were with them"((Barring the yadda yadda and blah blah blah, which sub out for the specific areas named, these were actual conversations I've heard and or been a party to)) I get the urge to scream. Part of the reason that players don't show fear for their lives at the thought of many of the terrible things that can kill them is that many of the nastiest, smartest, and cruelest creatures in the game are reduced to once a week fare for the killing and exploiting. In a way, people are right to say "Why should my pc show fear, when he whomps the Great Wyrm Red Dragon in Muckluck Meadow of Doomyvale every seven days, because he sticks around at near death, uses his spells inefficiently, and focuses on the fighter when he could turn around and start beating that mage who's bypassing his SR?"
Sorry, rant done, for now.
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Post by Charon's Claw on Aug 17, 2009 17:31:41 GMT -5
All I have to say is Arkreneos's Abyssal Drake. ;D
The defenders at High Horn... ALL the epics that were there were getting ouchied by it, and that dragon had what a truly epic dragon should have. ((Lag didn't help the adventurers much, but it still would have nearly thwarted them))
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 17:36:40 GMT -5
Just as an example, this is a snippet from the article on Olothontor the Old. This cave is warm, wide, and long, and its floor is strewn with gravel (for use with Olothontor's pebble wind spell). Its floor is broken about two-thirds of the way in by a 40-foot-wide chasm that drops down about 400 feet to a volcanic flow and splits the cavern from side to side. Hot air swirls up out of this chasm, and there is a faint, sullen red glow down below.
On the far side of the heated chasm, Olothontor lies at ease on a bed of treasure, his most prized items (magic musical instruments) behind him, well away from the heat. From time to time, as he shifts about, gold coins spill over the edge of the chasm. He'll await most intruders calmly, chin in hand, and demand music before he uses his spells or breath weapons on them. If sorely pressed, he'll leap across the chasm and burst through the intruders, seeking the open air of the mountain (where he'll perch and await emerging adventurers).
Would-be thieves and attackers must cross the chasm somehow, of course, with Olothontor free to strike at them. Well above the main cavern floor where the treasure lies is a high ledge lined with boulders; Olothontor can stretch up to it and bat the boulders at intruders (and when enough of them are gone, he can clamber up onto this ledge so that attackers must climb up to him).
If Olothontor observes a strong band of intruders coming from afar, he often awaits intruders in a side cave that opens into the walls of the chasm a short distance beneath the main cavern. Hidden there, he'll create an illusion of a bound and helpless human captive "standing" on the "solid stone" floor of the cavern. In other words, he'll conceal the empty air where the chasm gapes open with an illusory "floor" of stone, hoping to lure the intruders to their deaths through falling. Olothontor usually depicts a chained, furiously-struggling warrior woman, but he's had centuries to perfect this act and can also provide a very convincing, seductively beckoning princess, despairing merchant, and so on -- complete with detailed life histories, full knowledge of Sword Coast ways and business customs, and a tale of where the dragon has gone. Olothontor can surge up out of the "underneath" cavern with a roar to confront foes, or bound up in near silence. If the majority of a band of intruders fall for his illusion trick -- "The dragon can make himself very small and has gone down there to where he keeps his magic" -- the Minstrel Wyrm races to the opening of that half-mile long crevice and walls it shut by shoving a carefully carved boulder into place. He has three cottage-sized stones, each of which can seal off the end of the crevice -- two precisely, and one leaving small gaps around its edges. Olothontor simply shoves all three boulders in a heap and waits for the trapped intruders to starve or waste any powerful magic they might have in attempts to get out. |
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Post by Munroe on Aug 17, 2009 17:47:53 GMT -5
You know Urog would likely hear those mummies getting whupped on before anyone got to him, if he was a real wizard and not stuck to appear when you hit that invisible spawn trigger. One time I had Urog cause some serious pain on people to tried to threaten him. I don't think every lich needs to be DM-controlled though. You do only have to be 11th level to become a lich, after all. On a side-topic, why are liches always shown as arcane spellcasters? Evil clerics qualify to become liches just as easily as wizards and sorcerers. (Depending on their deity's view of undead, a druid might also.) Demi-liches probably should be DM controlled though. I'd like to hear more about these people that have no concern over vampires. Feel free to PM me about it. |
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Post by EDM Neo on Aug 17, 2009 17:50:16 GMT -5
Kind of getting off topic at this point, but... yes, the same applies to -many- high intelligence or high wisdom enemies. Liches, dragons, epic giant wizard-kings (actually, this one fights fairly smart)... a lich NPC that Camina would have been capable of soloing in the low teens wiped the floor with her when controlled by a DM and utilizing just some of the tactics that would be at a high level mage's disposal (accursed simulacrums!... although she does still blame Elvewyn).
That's just one of the downsides of the general Neverwinter Nights experience. The only real alternative I can think of (short of super improved AI, which I'm not sure is possible) is to have all "smart" monsters not spawn as regular NPCs, and rather, as DM controlled only... but this too has it's downsides, in that the DM team just isn't well staffed enough and wouldn't be able to get to everyone, and have other things that need doing too.
Edit: Heh, ninja'd.
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Post by ashaffer on Aug 17, 2009 18:37:00 GMT -5
No, this was directed at EVERYONE who would initiate torture... And, yes, it does keep a person's character from being tortured. Especially in the case of torture for pleasure. If you do not believe me, then you can ask the DM Team to clarify the rule for you. So basically you're saying you (as in a general you sense, not a specific personal one) have a get out of jail free card from being a total flap-yo-mouth-yo to badguy X because of your interpretation of the rules? That seems wrong to me, but unfortunately, I've come across players who see it the same way. I prefer not to play with them, really. They diminish my RP experience. Not because I like torture, but because they play like they know they can get away with anything (incidentally, the same goes for players with epic friends or family members, up to the point of running to the DM team for myself metaing and actually doing everything to leave them a way out once I learned they don't like PvP. In retrospect, I should have just killed the character in one round and been done with it. I also will not be so considerate in the future again. Being nice just bites you in the backside). I'm not saying you do, I'd just rather not risk it and be entirely annoyed at some point. Hence: Obviously you don't know any of my PCs... I don't flap my mouth to evil PCs, I watch them, and if there's enough to warrant a conflict between them, and me, then I certainly don't give them any warning of it. Other than me toggling them hostile right before I attack. I personally find torture extremely distasteful, so I would have to be absolutely convinced that the torture was necessary in the first place, before consenting to it. If I felt that the torture was being initiated because the PC/Player was only doing it because they were bored, and wanted to have some fun, then I would say no, and would hope that would be the end of it. |
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character. End of story. Were FRC a different place, with lower average level, I would say go for it, torture the living crap out of everyone you want.
