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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Jan 3, 2007 3:27:34 GMT -5
It's that time of year again. For *whatever reason* there is an increasing amount of tension between players and DM's it seems... ahem, I take that back, I know because I am reading the PM's in my inbox from both sides of the court!
Apparently the players think the DM's are just power-tripping gnolls who enjoy reprimanding players. Likewise, the DM's think the players need a swift kick in the art of role-playing and consideration for their fellow players.
How odd.
This topic is the opportunity to discuss these issues openly, honestly and considerately. Flames will be immediately edited and erased so don't even try it.
Here are the ground rules:
1. No flaming.
2. Be honest and forthright. Please don't lie or skirt the truth about anything you might wish to discuss.
3. No flaming. No trolling.
4. Specific examples are encouraged as long as we all follow rules 1-3.
5. No flaming. No trolling.
6. There will be no "in game" repercussions for anything discussed among our fine community in this forum.
I would like to see both players and DM's get their concerns off their chests. I am hoping this will lead to some understanding in our community and that we can all get along on common ground.
I assure the players that the DM's aren't out to get them, and I assure the DM's the same. Let's talk.
OK, I will start with the first post:
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Jan 3, 2007 3:28:03 GMT -5
Players need to read and have a basic understanding of the rules.
Next!
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Post by hexer on Jan 3, 2007 4:54:42 GMT -5
Well, I'll just say what I had said on the DM forums.
The recent influx of players from various other servers is taxing. As ShadowCatJen had said, a lot of the players from actions servers that have moved on to NWN2 are now abandoned and looking for a new sever. The problem is that a lot of the players that have been coming in have been treating this place like its an action server. People are running around like chickens with their heads cut off. The extent of a lot of RP I've seen lately has been "dood check out ths swrd +1! lets pwn kobolds".
Now, on top of that, there's players that are blatantly disregarding the rules. Twinking, mechanics abuse, exploiting our systems in every way possible to turn a profit. Recently a player was caught abusing the trap system to aquire a networth of over 1,000,000 gps. They were slapped on the wrist and were even allowed to keep their ill-gotten funds.
As much as I've tried steering players in the right direction, seems more and more are coming each day and each new group is harder to manage than the last. On top of that, there's the amount of people who haven't even browsed the rulebook. I can't tell you how many people I've had to take aside and talk with over some sort of cheating/abuse/metagaming who said that they didn't read the rules. People seem surprised when I say “No, Lord Kick Ass is not an acceptable name for your character and no you can't be a tiefling child of Bhaal”.
Furthermore, the sheer amount of players breaking the rules these days in the most blatant and unacceptable ways these days is staggering. It really is. We've had players exploiting to take epic feats at level 1, then players that just choose to ignore the 700+ warning that have been handed out by countless DMs. And when I do take the time to direct people to the forums, the rulebook, and inform them of various things they should know, I'm met with sarcasm, passive-agressive hostility, and often players just flat out insulting me with things like "suck my ____".
Even when I'm on as a player I have to deal with it. I've had a character randomly attacked by a gang of other characters for no RP reason aside from “r chars r drunk”.
Now, I'll admit, I've probably cracked down hard lately, maybe too hard, but I've really reached my limit. I can only be told to f-off so many times in so many ways before I feel like I have to start being a total dictator to get my message across. I don't enjoy doing it. Far from it. I'd love nothing more but to log in on the DM client and run countless fun quests like I used to, but each day that seems less and less likely. Instead I have to log in and wade through a river of complaints, reports of cheating/abuse, snide remarks, and random immaturity that, honestly, kills all fun for me.
I love this server. I love it. I've spent a few years here and I hate seeing things go sour. I hate seeing that ideal for a great RP server focused around character development and classic PnP style dungeon crawling turned into a place for people to just level up their next 'toon'.
Again, I've probably come on strong lately, but it feels like I've tried everything and have only had it laughed at and ignored. I don't like doing this. I truely don't. I'd much rather have fun running plots and quests and adventures for the players as opposed to playing the role of evil dictator.
... next...
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shimmerxxx
Old School
Yer spilt me pint!
Posts: 406
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Post by shimmerxxx on Jan 3, 2007 6:05:28 GMT -5
I'm aghast after reading Hexer's reply.
I haven't encountered the action refugees mentioned myself, thankfully.
Would it be possible to disable the registration of FRC on Gamespy? I'm pretty sure that all these new folk are coming to us from randomly clicking links rather than finding out about the server from the website.
Failing that, the simple addition of a password only obtainable from the website would deter casual gamers.
Less trouble for DMs=happier DMs=happier players
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Post by Teneas on Jan 3, 2007 7:18:03 GMT -5
I have only been here for about a month or so now, but I do enjoy playing here. Have had only one interaction with a dm, and it was to tell me to stay IC. I explained that I was trying to tell the other PC with me to hit the shift button, so he wasnt running around everywhere. I understand that dms have to do that sometimes. On another note though, that is the only interaction I have had with a dm. I came from another server where dms interacted more it seems. I am probably wrong, but it hard to come up with things for Teneas to do sometimes. I do not understand the vastness of the server yet. Would just like to have some interaction sometimes.
And, this is a great server though. Teneas loves whistling away as he goes through it.
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Post by HeatherRae on Jan 3, 2007 8:28:58 GMT -5
I really don't know what to say. Somehow, all of the Shouts I've been seeing lately suddenly make sense. See, they were really bothering me before because it felt like the DMs were being upset and I didn't know why and it seemed like they were upset a lot and that was rather nerve-wracking. I haven't encountered these action refugees. Then again, I've been staying with some pretty specific people and we've been RP'ing our way around (and dying horribly due to orcs....TWICE *weeps*). I don't know. I'm off a mind that if someone tells you to suck it, they get perma banned before they get the "it" out. These people sound like a pack of immature 12 year olds who need a spanking.
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Post by Savage on Jan 3, 2007 10:35:50 GMT -5
Well, being one of the new players. I would like to post my thoughts, to constructively contribute to the topic, please don’t lash me to yard arm for doing it.
1. I am guilty of all of the above. I have metagammed. I didn't know what it was before I came here. I have tried to stop doing that. I don't use tell's to try and get other characters to come raise my sorry @$$ any more. I don't trade goods with my other characters, and I don't say, we can't go in there the Cultist Ranger and Druid will pwn us. The only metgamming thing I think I can still be found guilty of is using a tell to ask another player "Are you in Isnhold or Redmist... I want to bump into you there...". I have learned what that means and now I try to stop it.
2. I am guilty of exploit the server in a minor way, though not cheating out right or trying to hax my char. I simply grab a crate from Garrot every time after a reset and carry it over. I would invite others who didn't take the walk with me to party up when I turned in the recipt so they would get the gold and xp. I have quit doing this now as I can see it is an exploit. No DM chastised me about it. I was correct by a fellow player.
3. I was running everywhere that first day...
4. I have said. “Doest, thou wish to go to the Kobold cave an reek upon them a bloody wrath with me?” Not my best role playing.
Guilty as charged. But I would like to let you know I have changed. I did most of these things out of ignorance of the rules, or habits learned from other hack and slash servers, and also cause I am a $#!T.
But that was before, I learned… Now that I have been here a month and a half I have finally come to understand the ideology of this server. I have now read the entire rulebook, and read the forums daily now. I am addicted. I have begun thinking of my character in terms of his future and his motivation other than hacking and slashing.
I have heard the complaints about all us noobs, and I understand now. Yesterday, I logged in… I saw a new char. She came running out of Garrots… and running here and there…I decided that I would help this newer noob, than myself learn…, Hoot chased her down and finially cornered her. I did the whole, did you steal something? Why the hell you running then? Something chasing you bit… They Rped like they where a scared little girl and that as soon as they came to town someone said “NO Familiars” and just killed her familiar which might have happened. I took the time to show her around and get her started. I took it slow and Rped the whole thing so this player would understand more what this server is about. I did this while my normal traveling party gathered. They grew tired of waiting on me and departed without me. I don’t blame them, and I am not concerned with the time I missed with them because I felt it was my way of giving back to the DM’s for all of the grief I may have caused during my honeymoon stage.
I will continue to do this as much as I can. I also understand that I am not a DM and so I lack any authority and if people don’t listen that’s all I can do is try. So this is what I have learned…
Yesterday, after helping the noob and missing my party, I was like crap now I got to go solo for a while, but I learned. So instead I decided to do nothing but RP the rest of the night. I spent an hours learning about Lauro and Drakken, So here is the rub, my usuall group went out. They probably gained over to 1000 xp…while I did nothing but enjoy some fantastic RP (which I know is probably a far better reward than the xp I missed). I was ok with that as I am getting in to the sprit of role-play. Now you have to understand that they go hack and slash but do it Rping the whole time. They stay in character and even do things along the way that progress their characters. They also usually wrap up and afternoon at the Inn with a little more RP before sign off it’s a good group and that’s why I like them. As they where signing off, I learned that one of them had been given an RP bonus from a DM for their RP around the dieing and raising of members of the group. Now I am not complaining here. I am certain that the person who received the bonus absolutely deserved it. I am also certain that I didn’t deserve any RP bonus for simply sitting on a log chatting with a friend. But I have heard the DM’s say they only give bonus for great RP. I have gotten an RP bonus twice in the past and both times it was after someone in our party died and I asked a DM to help me loot a raise scroll and the ensuing rescue.
Now, I understand why this happened this is the real world here. I am just saying. What motivation would you as a player get from the experiences I have had?
Regardless, I my character will now probably be doing 60/40 RP/XP I am now high enough level that I dont' feel the urgency to chase XP. The rub is that in doing so I will likely loose my ability to travel with my current compainons.
One last thing for the other players... I have engaged a number of other players a number of other times. The vast majority of response I get is a tell from the player saysing.. "I don't have time for this right now I gotta log in 15 minutes. Sry." Which I understand because we all have limited playing time.
But with all this being said, I know that I am an annoying @$$and I can fully understand if someone does't want to play with me because I suck. Which I am begining to believe I do.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Jan 3, 2007 11:05:58 GMT -5
Going to make a few points here to players who may still not quite understand how all this can come up on the DM side of things. Point one, the refugee factor. Currently the reason why players have seen less DM interaction (i.e. DM run quests) is for the reasons Hexer stated. There has been an influx of new players because of servers moving over to NWN2 and lots of players still can't afford the upgrades needed to run NWN2 (I know I can't). So it's not just from action servers, it's from all sort of other servers players are refugees from. Many of these servers do not have the rules in place that we do. Many of them are rather lax on what their characters can be and do. Many of them ignore any sort of sense of balance and see to it their characters reach level 40 at the end of one real life month. Some of them don't even require you to be in character. Point two, a better place to play. Setting the recent lag problems aside, FRC has shaped up to be one of the best places to play. Many newer players here won't recall the "bad ol' days" where the player count had to be kept low in order to try to tame the lag beast that existed back then. When the lag beast was slain Justi toggled up the player count to a full 64. Now, when you look at the server listing under gamespy you can click on the player count button and it will list the servers according to how many players are on it and what max player count the server is at. The one with the most players gets listed at the top. I've poked my nose once or twice at the list to see where FRC "floats" at and it's constantly in the top 15. Add in the fact that the ping was keeping very low for a very good long time there and you have the makings of what looks to be a very good place to play. Point 3, the DM/Player ratio. Keeping in mind the increase in the player count. We've gone from a constant running of 25 to 30 players up to what runs at about now a constant 40+ players, more at peek hours. Yes, it's true that there have been some new DMs added to the list. However, DMs can not be on all the time (they got lives too, ya know ) and sometimes there are hours where they're not on at all. Let's just say for arguments sake that on the average you'll have 2 DMs on at any given time during the day. That would still mean that between those two DMs they need to monitor 10+ players each. Anyone who's DMed before, be it pen and paper or online, knows how much of a pain it can be keeping control over 10 different players. Add to this the factor that not all 10 players may be in the same place and not all 10 players may be following the rules. Sometimes out of those 10 you'll end up with one -- just one -- dinkwad who insists on being a troll and tries to powergame up to level 20. You end up spending your hour that you had free just trying to explain to the dinkwad that what he's doing is wrong only to be met with "u suk, u just throwing ur weight around cause ur a DM". It puts a very very sour taste in the mouth and the only thing you want to do is hit the ban button on him and log off. In regards to the player's side of things: Savage is a perfect example of what can happen when we get a refugee who can learn from his mistakes. He's willing to change, willing to work things out and willing to do so while still having fun. Savage? Don't apologize for helping that other new player out. That's exactly the sort of help DMs need here. When you as a player know for certain that another new player is obviously not doing things the way DMs would like to see it or is obviously breaking a rule don't be afraid to give that player a tell. Maybe they're unaware, such as Savage was, of the nature of this server. Do NOT give yourself the excuse that "oh, the DMs will catch that and let him/her know, I don't have to deal with it." That's a slightly selfish way of thinking and in a online community setting it becomes detrimental. DMs: Though you may be frustrated at what you have to do, try not to get stuck in the rut of thinking every refugee that comes on and immediately acts like a dinkwad is going to stay a dinkwad. It becomes horribly easy to get into that negative mindset and through that you may end up running off someone who may have turned out to be a decent player. *wipes brow* Okay, think I said as much as I wanted to... for now.
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Post by SlothfulCat on Jan 3, 2007 11:49:32 GMT -5
I'm with the DMs... if people would just read the stinking rules things would be great. I mean... I read them, and they were the same rules I've enforced on another server... but I still read them instead of logging in and assuming. I /know/ that if people would just take the time to read the rules 30% of DM headaches go away... and thats from my own experience.
Now I also want to give a hand to most everyone here, the reason I'm here instead of pulling my duty a DM or playing on the server I DM on is on an RP server I sat and watched as my party, including the PCs of 3 DMs talked about why they didnt want to go where my character suggested (note this suggestion was prompted by finding someone's left over spawn so it seemed there was somesort of friskiness out of that group of monsters) in an OOC manner over the party channel with people halfway across the server... then concluded it wasnt worth the time or money for the xp-loot rewards. On an RP server. I dont see that here, and given that Aria's been able to develop a history of sticking her group's nose into places that send us all running I'm assuming no one else is seeing it either.
Now I myself will say that I've found the DM staff to be very induldgent, the second time I logged in Hemi hooked me up with my language widgets, helped me check on a few things about them and whatnot. I've had help from a number of DMs for having to log then coming back and being given a little jump out of a dangerous area... or them being willing to go behind me and clean up places I had to run from. It seems to me that the staff is very willing to help move some RP along when they find it... and always help you rescue a freind that you could do alone if the game mechanics let you... then again I normally assume that the answer will be "no" since I'm just one of 55 people on and I know how nerveracking it is to DM /that/ sort of mess.
However I'd like to air my one major complaint to the staff: DM 1 gives a speal over shout about how this is an RP server... RP etc, you action people have ruined the place so on and so forth. DM 2 remidns people its an RP server DM 3 drops big nasty on people RPing in town DM 4 reminds peopel congregating in big numbers makes lag...
I myself know exactly why this is happening, but to players who have just played and never DMed it just seems that we cant win for loosing... that no matter which way you go youre pissing a DM off at you...
To the players, I have some peeves:
Not /everyone/ you know needs to be in the group when you do leave town.
You dont always have to have a place in mind to go when you are leaving to go. (I dont know, I'm fond of picking a general direction and rolling with it.)
The server is suppose to be coving a /big/ area... Cormyr isnt the size of the local county.... you also move at the speed of pack ox, foot, and horse... so there is /no/ way unless yoreu an archwizard teleporting around that you were in Suzial cleaning out sewers this morning, in Skull Crag preparing to kill frost giants at brunch, Pausing in Isinhold to gather more party members at noon before taking on the gnolls, and then in Redmist plotting an attack on the crypts at tea time.... so please... the designers were nice enough not to give you huge empty areas to walk thorugh to make trips seem to take /forever/.. and they were nice enough to supply caravans so you dont have to fight everywhere... but please.. .keep in mind youre traving leagues of land.
"Hunting" Ettins, kobolds, bandits... kidn of implies yorue stalking dinner... maybe get a bit more creative? Youre pushing the ettins back from the road? You passed a caravan between point A and B (the distance the transition took you) and you feel you should combat those bandits so they dont prey on the merchants... Youre poor, youre a swordsmen... youre going to go fight for glory and gold! Just please... youre not making ettin-chops on the barbee... so lets not talk like it.
/Please/ Rp you character sheet, keep in mind what it means to have 8 wisdom or 8 charisma... or to have 18 wisdom... 8 dexterity... your abilities should match what youre portraying. (This means that if youre a cleric with 14 intelligence and 18 wisdom... it might occur to you that pissing off an army is a bad idea with reprecussions for others)
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Post by vercingettorix on Jan 3, 2007 13:10:41 GMT -5
For my part, I tend to lean in favor of DM's. Maybe its because I was one on my last server, and it had decent numbers online alot of the time. I can honestly say that it is exhausting, and very draining sometimes. If you get mad at a DM because you think they were rude or power mongering when they corrected you about some rule you didnt know about try to remember your not seeing the whole picture. Its very possible that at that moment said DM is running a quest while answering three different peoples questions while getting language tokens for someone else while helping someone else out when a door got bugged and their trapped while trying to arbitrate some dispute between two more players who are angry with eachother. So..if they happen to be short or terse when they address you..try and keep in mind maybe they're not being rude, maybe they are not simply power tripping, maybe they are just trying to resolve your issue as quick as possible so they can get to fixing the other 25 players who have just sent them tells. The second thing that comes to mind is that sometimes you just need to let things drop. If a DM has made a decision you dont like or disagree with, by all means politely address it with them. If in the end they stand by their decision and your still against it...well...tough. Do not continue to argue and spam the DM's. Inevitably that goes from annoying to angering and things degenerate from there. It is important to remember that while you are a player here, and valued as a member of the community, said community doesnt revolve around you. At any one time there could be as many as 40 other players online and the DM has the responsibility of making sure things are fair and fun for everyone..not just you. So the next time you do get upset or irritated, try and step back and look at the whole picture, not just your small part of it. I think the DM's here have earned that.
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regar
New Member
An entertaining defeat is better than a boring victory- Rich Burlew
Posts: 28
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Post by regar on Jan 3, 2007 13:24:52 GMT -5
Alright, my turn, i'm going to have to side with both the players and the DMs on this one, because they both have valid points.
On the DMs side:
Ten players per DM? and not all in the same room as they usually are in PnP? That has got to be TOUGH! Especially with a lot of players disregarding the rulebook. The DMs are apparently pretty stressed out, and me making it hard on them by arguing some of the rules hasn't helped i'm sure, on that note i'd like to apologize to DM DEATH and Dachion Lok. It seems that, with all these action server players getting the DMs riled up, you'd see bans left, right, and center. The DMs seem to be giving a lot of people second chances, although i agree that if a DM calmly explains that a character needs to stay IC, or walk in town, or something like that, and they get a response like "Fark Joo Tightwad." the ban button should be the first thing on the DMs mind.
On the players side:
In my own experience, the DMs have been rather discompassionate, adopting a "You dont like it, LEAVE!" philosophy. The rules are listed in the book, but the reasoning behind them is not, and for some players, just blindly following the rules does not cut it, i'm one of them. If a player needs a little more info on the reasoning behind a rule, the DMs should explain it, if the players want to argue a rule, say "Sorry, i'm not allowed to argue rules in the game, you can put up a post in the forums though." Doing this will not only point the player in the right direction, but will also let them know that DMs are also subject to rules, and not just the towering omnipotent overlords they seem to be, which may relieve a little tension.
Also, I think the WAY the DMs talk is a cause for concern. Short, terse, and extremely blunt sentences just seem to give the feeling that the DM wants absolutely nothing to do with you, and would probably ban you without a second thought just because he can. A few words added to a sentence can take a lot of harshness out of it, "S'cuse me, but i noticed you running in isenhold, you need to walk when in a town." is a lot easier to accept with a "Sorry, i'll make sure to walk from now on." than "Stop running in town." it may not seem like it here, but when a DM says it there is a big difference between those two sentences.
Well, thats my two cents. Short version: Players need compassion and understanding from DMs DMs need respect and understanding from the players
Note that i did not say that the DMs need single-minded obedience from the players, i am all for both the players and DMs coming together to shape the world their characters live in, I just didnt know that the forums were the place to do it, so i may have given a few DMs headaches with my long-windedness.
~Adam~
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Jan 3, 2007 13:34:22 GMT -5
Uuuuuunfortunately, the people that really need to see this are the same exact ones that don't read these forums. And unfortunately the players willing to help out other new players can't quite see who really needs the help like a DM can. Something that worked on another server was having a group of dedicated players who also doubled as new player welcomers. The players wouldn't get anything in return other then the sense of helping the community out. What they would do is when they would spot a new player to give them a short welcome to the server and to say that if they wanted to ask any questions they could. Of course, the player welcomer would have to be well versed in all the basic rules of the server. Just being friendly wouldn't be enough. This can bypass those sorts of folks that come on and neglect to read anything before playing. Player welcomers could also alert a DM crew ahead of time if the new player is an obvious incurable dinkwad. Like someone insisting on naming their character "Froofroo" and types up nothing but "lol" and "ur lame". The DMs don't have all the time in the world to take every player that comes on by the hand and guide them in the right direction. As Verc mentioned when you're on the DM side of things you get swamped with things almost the instant you log on. Sometimes it does get so bad to the point where you just don't want to log on anymore. And that's a Bad Thing.
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Post by Laurk on Jan 3, 2007 13:54:00 GMT -5
I think the biggest frustration currently is the sheer amount of policing going on. How can any DMs stop to run events or make things fun when logging on as a DM means getting stuck explaining and arguing with powergamers and exploiters for two hours? Most players are great, but it only takes one bad apple to occuply 100% of my time... meanwhile no players are getting XP.
The thing that bugs me, is that we shouldnt even need rulebooks. Rules being broken are complete common sense. I get erked when someone caught red exploiting says "I didnt know I couldnt (insert obvious exploit here). It would be like going into someones house and sniffing their wives underwear, and then when the cops show up saying, "But I didnt know that was illegal!"
The easiest rule to follow is this. When you log onto FRC, pretend you live there, and that you are your character. If what you are doing is something that shouldnt exist in Faerun, or seems very unrealistic to the setting (counting on respawns and respawning loot for example.) then you shouldnt be doing it. Find reasons for everything you do. When my character goes off to an area, I 'always' have a reason that could exist in the setting. Granted, there are some rules which we must have for the purpose of mechanics and balance, like ninja looting and harrasment, but in most cases, any one of you who can count to five should know if what you are doing is breaking a rule or not. The less time we have to enforce rules, the more time we have for fun.
Laurk
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Post by Savage on Jan 3, 2007 14:09:09 GMT -5
Ok, Shadowcat touched on a good idea. One I could support if it enhanced the community.
Maybe we could setup a calendar for seasoned players to volunteer to be meet and greet people. I would be willing to give up one night a month to just stand in the border out post or in the Inn at Isnhold to greet new comers, explain that the server is RP and these are the rules. Here is the forums don't plan on making any progress until you know these things.
We could setup a player account with PC setup to be Purple Dragon Knight Squire in training or something. When new players arrive this guy (Played by different volunteer each day) would do the intro. This would help the DM’s cut down on their police work and allow serious players to work toward enhancing their community. I doubt this would work because who would volunteer to give up one of their paying time slots. Maybe incentives could be given? Like something shiny, some gold ie paid by the crown to meet and greet, or a XP bonus for one of the volunteers PC’s.
Just a thought? Feel free to move this post to a different place since its not entirely on topic.
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Post by Booze Hound on Jan 3, 2007 14:56:48 GMT -5
My main peeve is what has been said already.
I hate cops and rules and laws in real life. Yea supposedly most of them are there for a reason or whatever, but none the less, I hate them.
And by that, I also hate acting like a cop when I want to come on and DM. What I want to do is set up a small encounter for some people. Or posess an NPC to goof around. Instead, I find myself being a freaking cop. And it sucks.
And like Shadowcatjen said, a big problem is that I dont have a problem with 99% of the people who will read or reply to this thread. but it only takes 1% to suck al the fun away. And so unfortunatly, as constructive as this thread is, it seems like pissing in the wind, because the ones we have to worry about couldn't give a rats ass that this forum is even here.
So to you guys tat are reading this, we're sorry that there are extended rants coming over the shout channel that you have likely heard 30 times. but its the only way we can get it out there for everyone to hear. Unfortunatly it seems to do no good a LOT of the time as so many times I hear one DM making a shout about running and powerlooting through a dungeon and I watch a player do exactly that WHILE HE IS SHOUTING.
and that...pisses me off.
*hic*
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Post by SlothfulCat on Jan 3, 2007 15:04:24 GMT -5
Sorry Savage, most of the real dinkwads wont stop to talk to you when they see you in town, let alone at a start area... and on the spin, if they wont take the time to read forums, books in their inventory... flashing signs in the border area.... what makes you think they'll talk and hold out a full length conversation that takes by far longer?
Reminds me of watching oen dwarf run into another PC while carrying a great axe repeatedly, and only start emoting taunts at that PC when a DM showed up as Bentin. So people are bright enough to get it, they just choose not to.
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Driderman
Old School
Off-topic conversationalist extraordinaire!
Posts: 357
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Post by Driderman on Jan 3, 2007 15:07:21 GMT -5
I don't think I'll be going too much into this topic as I'm a smartmouthed bastard who has an uncanny ability to piss off DMs even when I don't mean to But I'll just like to say that when DMs makes shouts concerning that actions of players, unless you're doing what they're telling you not to do or you see someone doing, don't worry about, cause then it's not about you and then you shouldn't really care, except maybe for thinking "Dammit I hate it when people abuse the game mechanics and piss off our excellent and fair( Yes, I'm serious, although Hexer might more qualify as 'iron-fisted' rather than fair ) DMs" As someone posting above said, it's is our shared responsibility to make sure new players follow the rules of the server and adapt to the roleplaying environment here, for example by telling them to have a look at the forums or enlightening them to whatever rules they might be breaking... Okay, now I got into the topic anyway... *Shrugs*
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Post by Savage on Jan 3, 2007 15:34:56 GMT -5
avieupator, Well, give the PDK Squire a sharp sword, strong armor, and a few raise dead scrolls, true vision, and the ability to cast slow on people. That should allow him time to explain himself, if dinkwads still persist to be dinkwads then you let it go and ask a DM to keep an eye on that one. If a gentle nudge wont straighten them up (like they did me) then DM can bring down the house on them. I know there are lots of reason why this might not work. But I would rather free the DM up to do what they want to do which is the same thing we want them to do.
Also, said PDK can be a proxy for the DM. If a DM sees a dinkwad in catacombs then he can port the PDK Squire there and let him mitigate the problem so he can move onto other things. I don’t want to spend all my time policing but I don’t want the DM to have to be the only ones responsible for the community. The reason a PDK Squire type character is required is simply because most this activity is done by lower levels and in places my character can no longer go. If a higher level character is doing this then the DM’s should handle that simply because the Player will have more invested in that character.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Jan 3, 2007 15:48:54 GMT -5
If anything those of us that actually check the forums will be able to understand what sort of frustration is going on on the DM side of the game. Players that actually give a damn can tell other players who gripe a little bit too much about lack of DM attention or DMs being too iron fisted that they're stressed right now.
We also need to be reminded of one very big thing. DMs are human, too. Just because you get those little two letters at the front of your name does not make you immune to not making mistakes or immune to not getting angry. It happens, I know, I've done it.
This is probably nothing, but I sort of scoped out a few of the high player volume and more popular servers out there. All of them are currently suffering the same exact problem. A massive influx of refugees from other dead servers. Logged into one and right at the entry way they have a sign that states again about their rules, that being new is no excuse for not knowing them, ect. ect..
So guys, your crew isn't the only one suffering from this.
To be more specific on player welcomers... having it that people get specific days or even weeks they have to do it sounds too much like work. You simply get some volunteers willing to spend part of their play time keeping an eye out for new players. They are not obligated to do so the entire time they are on, just when it's convenient for them.
Maybe they're just waiting in town for their partner to come back with the gold they just earned from traveling and happen to see a new character run by for no reason. The Player Welcomer will just initiate some tells to the player in a friendly manner. Maybe the player doesn't know how to make their character walk. A Player Welcomer can tell them how.
Technically speaking any player can do this just on their own. Having a core set of Player Welcomers, however, gives a little more of a guarantee that it actually gets done.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Jan 3, 2007 15:54:57 GMT -5
avieupator, Well, give the PDK Squire a sharp sword, strong armor, and a few raise dead scrolls, true vision, and the ability to cast slow on people. That should allow him time to explain himself, if dinkwads still persist to be dinkwads then you let it go and ask a DM to keep an eye on that one. If a gentle nudge wont straighten them up (like they did me) then DM can bring down the house on them. I know there are lots of reason why this might not work. But I would rather free the DM up to do what they want to do which is the same thing we want them to do. Also, said PDK can be a proxy for the DM. If a DM sees a dinkwad in catacombs then he can port the PDK Squire there and let him mitigate the problem so he can move onto other things. I don’t want to spend all my time policing but I don’t want the DM to have to be the only ones responsible for the community. The reason a PDK Squire type character is required is simply because most this activity is done by lower levels and in places my character can no longer go. If a higher level character is doing this then the DM’s should handle that simply because the Player will have more invested in that character. I'd have to give a negative on this one, Savage. This gives a little bit too much unfair power to a player and that shouldn't happen. Besides, having it that one of your solutions to having the newbie player listen is to go PvP on them defeats the very purpose of it. No, as I stated above, there be nothing extra anyone would get from it. Thus, they wouldn't have access to a PC/NPC either. Everything can be done via tells with nothing extra needed to be done by the staff.
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Post by vercingettorix on Jan 3, 2007 16:01:42 GMT -5
In regards to what others have said so far about the massive influx of refugees and those who need to read this post wont actually be the ones to do so, maybe those of us who are reading this need to just accept that things are gonna suck for awhile. Those of us who are players need to do what we can to work with the new players and help guide them to the Righteous Path of RP Goodness in order to help lessen some of the strain the DM team is under and remember that when the DM's are shouting about stuff not to take it personally. If we are a community, then we need to pull together as a community in order to weather the storm, so to speak. That means trying a little harder to be courteous and patient with each other, because in the end we're all pulling for the same thing.
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Post by DM Valkyrie on Jan 3, 2007 16:09:14 GMT -5
I have to agree with my counterparts here. For me, I prefer to log in....wander around a bit listening to roleplay, awarding XP for good roleplay, then set up a few small adventures for those folk I find taking time to roleplay. If I see someone just running from place to place powergaming, they *may* find something nasty in thier path, if I decide to spend some time on them. But usually I don't. I do try to visit everyone, sometimes you know I have been by, sometimes you don't, but I do work my way down the list as much as possible.
What I dislike, is to have to take someone aside and say "Do you have a few moments?" at which time I address whatever issue I happened to find. Generally, if I am setting something up, I look at character sheets, stats, abilities, etc etc, so that I can create something challenging and fun. Unfortunately, at times, on seeing some sheets, I find problems. And these problems are usually addressed either in the rulebook in a character's inventory, or here on the forums. Then what goes from creative set up, becomes policing....and well...sometimes, folks are good enough to say "Oh, sorry about that, let me fix that", other times...it becomes a headache.
I guess what I am saying, is that a bit of patience on both sides would go a long way in regards to the server. We were all new to the server at one point (yes, even me, and I rememebr a DM from way back when "counselling" on my play..DM Bassa for anyone who may remember). I didn't argue or complain, but accepted the guidance offered and turned my character into one of the movers and shakers of the realm (*before* I was asked to join the DM team). There was a time, when we had fewer players, and we saw *no* DM's at all. What did we do? We roleplayed, we created our own plots and storylines. We drew the attention of the DM Team in a positive manner.....
And this would still work today. Your character levels and amassing vast amounts of XP or GP or whathaveyou rate very low in my assessment of a player. What I like to see is background, depth, emotion, and finding a created character being played as well defined as a character you would find in a novel.
Anyway...I think that sums up my thoughts. Kudos to those of you who have responded, there are some very good viewpoints offered, and speaking for myself, will certainly take into consideration.
Thank you.
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Post by DM the Usurper on Jan 3, 2007 17:19:03 GMT -5
Be Excellent To Each Other or I eat you
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Post by TermaForever on Jan 3, 2007 20:27:01 GMT -5
Now I haven't been here very long, but I spent about a year on another rp server. Now people might complain about the rules here, but the admin at my old server was just insane. His rules weren't 'constructive' or 'helpful', half of them were just to hide (or show in terrible light) his own inepptitude. That server is gone now...the admin got all depressed and pulled the plug. I left a while ago having finally got disgusted with his occasional self-martyrdom speeches. So I come here...slower and tougher to build a character yes, but the rp is far better...and this is someone coming from a place where the players were good even if the dms weren't. In the short time here I have already aquired more dm rewarded rp experience than i ever got there, and that is inspite of the policing distractions you guys are having. (True example: On my old server I got 1000xp for spending a month (an actual real life month) having my character be cursed (which forced on me by a dm as part of rp). I was already level 40 at the time so my 1000xp was kinda pointless for all the time I spent rping. I got 500xp here for saying something to the effect of 'I would like to get out of here before more gnolls show up, please.' You guys do things much better ;D I myself had a short learning curve...especially the running thing which, while I understand why, I kinda wish I could run more often...I like to rp but I also like to get where I'm going . Still, I abide. I haven't run into that many 12 year old refugees, most of the people I have been around (and you folks know who you are) have been great. While I know you don't want to password the thing, I agree with whoever said it that maybe that is what needs to be done. This server is already great, I would love to see it with dms who have more time to be dungeon masters not Judge Dread. I will admit the constant shouts worry me sometimes because my first inclination is "What did I do wrong?" Anyway...thats the picture from my view. I hope I haven't caused any dms trouble (none have yelled at me yet, which is a good sign) and hope you guys can make things right with the complainers (banning is good).
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Driderman
Old School
Off-topic conversationalist extraordinaire!
Posts: 357
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Post by Driderman on Jan 3, 2007 20:38:26 GMT -5
In my opinion banning seems like a bit of an extreme measure, unless of course we're talking repeating, serious violations. The password part seems much more friendly. A link to the forums on gamespy and wherever and a sticky with the password on the forums. Easy access for those who take the time to have a look at the forums. Perhaps you could make the server password protected for a few months or so, then remove it again when it seems the troubles have subsided. It seems that FRC is beginning to have a pretty large player base so unless your goal is to fill up the server completely I don't see the harm in a password
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Post by Booze Hound on Jan 3, 2007 21:19:19 GMT -5
here's a gripe.
I called for a reset, and everyone logged but one guy.
I called his name and said log out man!
he kept looting.
I said his name again PLease log out!
he kept looting.
I said, log out or be booted and banned.
he kept looting.
I killed him, he respawned and ran for the exit to the Fugue, still not responding.
I booted him and am pushing to get him banned. That's the annoying crap that gets on our nerves, everytime I want to reset to make less lag, some A-Hole completely ignores me. yuk.
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Post by Aodhan the Unusual on Jan 3, 2007 23:58:27 GMT -5
I, as both DM and player, find myself being police... 99.996% of the time. Those that know my main character wonder why I stick in Isinhold so much. Not just for the gossip. Not because everyone likes to go back to their "roots" and meet up with people. But to watch. And wait. And hope that no one comes on that needs to be watched, talked to, or anything of that sort.
Ever since I became a DM, that's pretty much all I've done. My DM client gives me troubles whenever I try anything more than a couple of spawns so I generally just watch people and police. Once in a while dropping things like Sven, the prismatic dragon of fashion, in or possessing a random NPC to make someone's day a little more interesting. But for the most part... I'm watching... And waiting... Being the Border Patrol that shouldn't be needed, but apparently is.
I, personally, would love to see this server go back to its glory days of excellent RPers and player driven plots that were almost as good as the DM run ones. Back when people wouldn't run straight out of the shoot. Where someone wasn't afraid to ask questions of fellow players if there was something they didn't understand. Where threads like this weren't really neccessary.
And I'm sorry if I seem short with anyone. I try and give everyone the benifit of the doubt, but when another DM says that the person I'm currently talking to has been arguing about Rule X, or doing Y continuosly, I just tend to lose patience with people right away.
All right. I've done my rant. I'm gonna go find some cookies and hot cocoa now.
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Post by Helgrin Granitesoul on Jan 4, 2007 1:08:27 GMT -5
To all those that say this is a bad idea.... You might be right What do I know.. Been drinking my christmas gift all night. Anyone heard of Black Butte Porter.. Oh man.. It DA BOMB. Beer of the month club is AWESOME....
As for people not reading the rules....
Before allowing the port into FRC a NPC should have to be talked to and a new dialogue would appear... He is a teacher.. Oh yes.. A TEACHER... Time for a little lesson on the rules and laws or Cormyr. What you say.. Yes.. A QUIZ.. time for some schooling on entry.
Start it with a statement saying something about the history of FRC and the love of the players and DM team have the world they are about to enter. The follwing rules are for the TOTAL enjoyment of all players and if you do not agree with them this is not the place for you.
People that really see that this is about RP and not just a hack/slash server will understand and take the five minutes to at least make the effort to look up in the rules and answer correctly. THose that cant take the time to answer the questions... chance are you dont want them here anyhow....
Before a charter is given and a port occurs into the main server. A quick OCC quiz on the rules.. Dont answer correctly.. you dont get in. Is it alittle chessy.. maybe. Hell .. totally. But at least it gets the point across about the rules in away that forces people to have to take time to read those rules.
Would it be that hard to program a dialogue into a NPC in the border station to ask questions on whether a person has or hasnt not read and understood the rules. They answer wrong.. then the conversation doesnt go any farther until they do.
Subjects covered 1) This is a RP server..not a hack and slash one 2) Ninja looting - what it is and why it is frowned upon 3) Basic information on character creation - what is and what is not allowed 4) Twinking/Muling/Exploits 5) and all the other crap that seems to be driving the DM's up the wall 6) The final point.. break these rules and face the wrath of the DM team.
I hate to see the DM team like they are now. I have seen the tells on the shout channel and have be flabbergasted how much they seem to be at wits end over things. These folks spend their free time bringing us this world and all that is in it and it makes me sad to know that at least one is leaving over it and I bet a few others are about at that point.
Like I said... might be a little drunk and when I read this tomorrow morning..... Might be like one of those late night phones calls you think are just a great idea at the time but the next morning...... Oh gods... I did that...
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Post by SamuraiGoat on Jan 4, 2007 1:11:12 GMT -5
That's... brilliant.
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Post by Dachshund on Jan 4, 2007 1:21:05 GMT -5
Some of you may have noticed that I'm one of the DMs that's been doing a lot of shouting lately. As someone pointed out earlier, the shouts are always tied to a specific example that has just taken place. If you haven't done any of the things the shouts are about, you're probably not doing anything wrong. They also serve to remind you about the rules... reminders, nothing more. You may think of yourself as a veteran player here, but even veteran players have been known to ignore the rules... and suffer the consequences. I would like to relate to you about my first day as a DM on FRC... I logged on with my avatar and thought I would just walk around for a while, checking people out. I like to do what DM Valkyrie said, checking everyone's character sheets for their general difficulty and level. So I happen upon some guy who - for some reason - had an illegal character. Now I, as a new DM, didn't know the specifics of how we go about remaking characters, so I enlisted the aid of another DM. He tutored me in remaking characters, but the whole thing took about an hour. I would much rather have spent that precious hour searching for ways to bring life to FRC than remaking that guy's character. It ended up taking 2 DMs 1 hour... an hour in which we both could be doing something for you. Now for my second day... I was the only DM on at the time and I looked around and gasped. 2 players had illegal characters and a third was spending his time ninja-looting the well in Isinhold. I spent my entire afternoon dealing with those. Come evening, I was in no mood whatsoever to do anything as a DM, so I just logged in with my PC instead. I've met some excellent players here on FRC and I really enjoy being a DM here, but sometimes the bad just outweighs the good and I just throw in the towel and press the boot button. I truly enjoy watching players who stay IC even when they think we aren't watching. Those are the kind of people we reward quite often. We may not notice at first because of the sheer size of the server, but we will eventually. Do not let yourself be drawn into other people's desire to farm. We will notice the players who are making an effort and reward them appropriately. We try our best to give everyone a nudge in the right direction, but if you for some reason know there's a DM online and he/she isn't doing something for you, that's probably because we're dealing with some dinkwad out to farm the place. For those who feel offended by what I've written you may want to consider why that is. For those of you who try their best to stay in character... keep up the good work, cause we will notice.
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