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Post by DM Grizwald on Feb 4, 2008 16:09:15 GMT -5
I would just like to bring this up because it has bothered me for a while. I've played numerous characters on this server and I'm finding this a little irritating when folk automatically assume that those who wear black are evil....oooooh.... I started a new char today who just so happens to be evil and wore black with which some char's have already assumed that because he has worn black he means trouble. When trying to stereotype someone with the colour they are wearing think of the things you as a player might not see but what your character might see. Think of the crowds of people that your character passes by each day. Think of all the folk your character might see in inns/taverns/temples. Guaranteed alot of them might wear black seeing as how it is quite a common colour. How many of those people do you walk by and go "oh, black, must be trouble". Just my thoughts, thought i should share. Griz
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Feb 4, 2008 16:26:17 GMT -5
My character has ended up with a different view on it just because of her occupation. Course, this is just me, but from Mynian's PoV black is such a popular color that she never bases who or what a person could be just based on clothing color alone. She's known some really nice and upstanding people who just like to wear the color black and some really terrible and horrific people who had worn brighter colors. But, I do get your point. People automatically coming to the assumption that since he/she is wearing black then they must be up to something shady and thus something evil is a bit off base.
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Post by DM Grizwald on Feb 4, 2008 16:41:14 GMT -5
Yeah, basically what i'm saying is its not a very fair assumption.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Feb 4, 2008 16:45:07 GMT -5
If we are going by realism, anyone wearing brightly colored clothing could be assumed to have a bit of money. Reason being is that dyes cost money, and not all peasants can afford such things. I would assume the most popular colors for clothing (i do not know the history of textiles) would be brown first (due to degree of dirtiness since showers/cleaning aren't readily available), white (or off white), grey, black and possibly green or shades of green due to ease of access to chlorophyl. Other colors would need to be manufactured from berries or other natural sources (or hired gnomes and their silly experimenters, unless wizards get the spell Create Colors).
As for assuming what people's alignment is based on their color coding ... we may as well just start judging people by the color of their skin *sarcasm alert*.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Feb 4, 2008 17:18:20 GMT -5
Actually, I like that people automatically assume black means evil. Why wouldnt we want them too? Who cares if its fair or not... its realistic. There are a couple things I love to see in an RP server, Prejudice and Racism. Heck, that is top notch RP if you ask me. We are dealing with medevil mindsets here. Most people are probably going to assume anyone dressed in black is either a thief or an evil wizard, and that's fantastic. Tormites probably wont like homosexuals, and Sunites will usually consider Tormites to be closed-minded bucket heads. Outstanding! Almost everyone is likely going to assume any half orc is a lazy freeloading savage. And that is wonderful! Dwarves dont like elves, elves dont like anyone, and halfling love everyone with money. Fan-freaking-tastic! Its that gritty realism that makes an RP server immersive... and I dont know about you all, but I play FRC for escapism too... and well.. personally, I NEED to escape from political correctness once in a while and go to a place where my character can consider anyone wearing black to be a filthy savage, and anyone with an accent to be a sly foriegner that can't be trusted! hehe
Wait... Manshin wears black AND is a foriegner! CRAP!!!
edit: Just a note... when was the last time you met a villian who WASN'T wearing black.... or all red? pfft... these stereo types obviously have a foundation... I mean, when is Ranan going to come striding into town wearing silvery full plate dressed in baby blue and yellow?
Manshin
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Feb 4, 2008 17:28:21 GMT -5
Manshin does make a point that I may have missed in my post. People may play their PCs however they want. If they wish to assume that everyone wearing black is evil, so be it. Likewise, if they wish their PCs to be racist or even species-ist, so be it. It may not be fair nor completely open minded, but that's the way it works.
EDIT: My original post was trying to imply that black is probably a very common place color to wear. So the assumption that it implies evil may be slightly ignorant.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Feb 4, 2008 17:47:20 GMT -5
Actually I was going to bring up about how certain colors cost more in order to dye because of the materials. Someone wearing clothes of rich blues or purples would be known to be well off. But I wasn't sure about the color black and looked things up a little. I ran across this article here: www.bucks-retinue.org.uk/content/view/139/177/And for black it said the following: "Those fabulously posh portraits of English and European royalty depict them in very smart black clothing, trimmed with dark fur, embellished with gold jewellery and embroidery, and often wearing a rich red to complement the look. In fact, black clothing was supposed to symbolise humility and plainness, and for this reason was associated with monastic life. There is some debate as to whether black was ‘posh’. Medieval authorities often tried to restrict the colours ordinary people wore, to distinguish them from the nobility and city élites in their finery. The colours mentioned are often red, purple and black. It is true that some methods of dyeing black involved huge amounts of chemicals such as alum, which would erode the fabric, the inference is that this would make black-wearing costly. But on the other hand, black had ‘humble’ connotations and if it was worn by some monastic and clerical orders (which swore to live in poverty), this suggests it could be dyed cheaply as well. A mix of the three basic dyes, madder, weld and woad, with a lot of alum, could create a black. Acorns were allegedly used as black dye, as were ‘galnuts’ or oak apples, which were also used to make ink. Black as a colour was also associated with darkness and death. Black is not often depicted in period illustrations of clothing, perhaps indicating it was not such an attractive colour to wear, in comparison to brighter colours." Of course, I'm taking this from RL sources and could be vastly different for FR. That and "well off" also doesn't indicate good or evil, but it could indicate status. Er.... really had no other point then that. ^_^
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Post by ancientempathy on Feb 4, 2008 17:51:36 GMT -5
I think some evil faiths uh, kind of also have black as one of their main colors. I know of no actual list that details such specifically
And if anyone knows of one, please point it out. =)
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Feb 4, 2008 17:55:54 GMT -5
I can't access it from work, but when you go to the Wizard's website and look up the extra supplimentals for the FR sourcebooks, there is an expanded list on FR religions, what colors they wear, the animals they worship, and things like that. Got it fully printed up at home as it's one of those Lore things Myn knows. Can't remember the name of it at the top of my head, though.
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Post by TermaForever on Feb 4, 2008 17:59:42 GMT -5
Always figured black was a pretty cheap dye myself...
And I had a non-evil character who wore mostly black. Its great for not standing out in caves/woods/etc.
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Post by ancientempathy on Feb 4, 2008 18:03:19 GMT -5
I can't access it from work, but when you go to the Wizard's website and look up the extra supplimentals for the FR sourcebooks, there is an expanded list on FR religions, what colors they wear, the animals they worship, and things like that. Got it fully printed up at home as it's one of those Lore things Myn knows. Can't remember the name of it at the top of my head, though. I'm sending you flowers ;D
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Post by Grozer on Feb 4, 2008 18:24:48 GMT -5
I can't access it from work, but when you go to the Wizard's website and look up the extra supplimentals for the FR sourcebooks, there is an expanded list on FR religions, what colors they wear, the animals they worship, and things like that. Got it fully printed up at home as it's one of those Lore things Myn knows. Can't remember the name of it at the top of my head, though. Yeah I have this as well, though I think you would agree the colors, symbols, animals, etc. wouldnt be common knowledge to every PC. Perhaps some more widely known deities such as Bane might, since Zhentarim march to his colors, etc but in general knowing EVERY god to that detail is not necessarily a small task. Just pointing it out so when people go and read the reference material they dont use it in game automatically.
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Post by ancientempathy on Feb 4, 2008 18:29:51 GMT -5
I can't access it from work, but when you go to the Wizard's website and look up the extra supplimentals for the FR sourcebooks, there is an expanded list on FR religions, what colors they wear, the animals they worship, and things like that. Got it fully printed up at home as it's one of those Lore things Myn knows. Can't remember the name of it at the top of my head, though. Yeah I have this as well, though I think you would agree the colors, symbols, animals, etc. wouldnt be common knowledge to every PC. Perhaps some more widely known deities such as Bane might, since Zhentarim march to his colors, etc but in general knowing EVERY god to that detail is not necessarily a small task. Just pointing it out so when people go and read the reference material they dont use it in game automatically. A good example to that statement, is Shar. I would say that a PC probably knows of her name, but even the churches holy symbol might not be common knowledge. It just depends upon your character(s) background and the RP your starting up. Just remember to always keep others in mind =)
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irene
Proven Member
Posts: 226
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Post by irene on Feb 4, 2008 18:44:50 GMT -5
Always figured black was a pretty cheap dye myself... And I had a non-evil character who wore mostly black. Its great for not standing out in caves/woods/etc. This is FR... not Europe in the middle-ages. I guess black must be pretty cheap here. But in the middle-ages black was both difficult to create and expensive, especially on linen and silk. Purple and blue as well, red somewhat easier, but still tricky. Yellow and green where the "common" colours, they are easy to create, and work with, especially on wool.
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Post by SlothfulCat on Feb 4, 2008 18:50:04 GMT -5
Black is one thing... un-natural dead inkblot black... well thats another. One Aria associates with sneaky types or moody people, the other with downright rotten folks... like Lucius, Alino, Phelzaron, Rodan, Lilith, ((see where this list goes?))... Not to mention some of the trim colors that make people look creepier associated with that inkblot look... yellow/orange, green, purple... are rather bad news to anyone whose been around the block a few times.... particularly with the Accord in effect and any need to be slick removed.
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Post by HeatherRae on Feb 4, 2008 19:38:42 GMT -5
Um, actually...
Black was the cheapest color for many fabrics.
The reason behind this is that when bolts of cloth (especially silk and fine cottons) were shipped to wherever they were shipped to, they were often placed in the bottom holds of ships or wagons...and piled high. Well, no matter what you may have been told, neither ships nor wagons were actually watertight. The cloth was, of course, shipped undyed, and you'll understand why in a moment.
Now, I want you to imagine what happens when cloth - which is, until now, undyed or bleached at best - is exposed to water or otherwise unsanitary/damp conditions day in, day out, day in, day out. Then I want you to imagine what happens when you compound this with any kind of vermin that would have been in the wagons/on the trail/in the ship hold.
The simple fact is that bleach can do a lot. But there is only so much it can do. What came from the bottom was dyed black to conceal the filth it had wallowed in along the way. The stuff near the middle would have been more neutral colors, and the stuff near the top was the only part that would have been bleached white, or dyed any of a number of other "jewel" tones.
That is why black was considered "humble" - because it was known to be the lowest quality off a shipment of fabric.
You would have had peasants in blacks, browns, and rust colors. Clorophyll really doesn't actually give a lasting dye - it becomes brown as the chloroplasts die. Green was hard to come by, if I remember correctly, although I cannot remember what was actually used to dye it. Purple and blues came from indigos, rusts/reds/browns came from some clays, some flowers, even some nuts. Yellow would have had to have come from the lightest fabric, and I know that some pollens (specifically saffron is mentioned in some cases, although I rather doubt the veracity of that as it is difficult for me to imagine someone being able to gather enough of the stuff to get a true dye...but perhaps it is possible, not sure).
Anyway. Light colors/jewel tones from the top. Dark/dull colors/blacks from the bottom. Light colors/jewel tones = wealthy, dark/dull colors/blacks = poor.
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Post by EDM Neo on Feb 4, 2008 19:47:29 GMT -5
Just something else to keep in mind... as others have said, FR is a fantasy setting... any level 1 arcanist can cast prestidigitation and dye 600 cubic feet of non living material per hour any color they want for free, a few times per day. And who knows what other methods of coloring things or producing exotic dyes they have.
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Post by Aodhan the Unusual on Feb 4, 2008 20:08:34 GMT -5
Remember... In the fashion world, black is slimming and used a lot. Black isn't neccessarily evil! Perhaps I should make a Lathanderite that wears black... That'll teach ya'll.
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Post by catmage on Feb 4, 2008 20:09:10 GMT -5
Tormites probably wont like homosexuals. Sorry to detract from the topic momentarily to mention that nothing in Torm, or any other deity's, entries in Faiths and Pantheons mention a bias against homosexuality. Back to the topic at hand though... The color black is used by more evil than neutral and good aligned deities, but among the neutral deities with black is Oghma, a greater deity, meaning he's got thousands of followers, and the three good deities are from the dwarf, elf, and gnome pantheons, all of which are more inclined to be good than evil. So, those that veiw evil as the sole owner of black would have to be hicks in the extreme, and likely human, because otherwise, they'd have been exposed to either the clergy of Oghma or run across one of the three races mentioned above, who would be less likly to place a negative stigma on black.
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mastersenge
Old School
[orange]Player Advocate[/orange] Scoutmaster of Evil Scouts Troop 1372
"I can't brain today. I've got the dumb."
Posts: 516
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Post by mastersenge on Feb 4, 2008 20:29:34 GMT -5
I have a good character that wears all black and a neutral one that wears black and an evil character that wears bright colors. Of course I also have the couple of not so nice guys that wear black. Never can tell from what someone wears but I do like manshins post. IC hate is fun *evil laugh*.
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Post by EDM Entori on Feb 4, 2008 21:03:14 GMT -5
meh I liked the points that
*if* a character has reason to think everyone dressed in black is evil, or everyone with a hood up is out to get them..Hey people are that paranoid.. then its all good..
As for clark, hey man i know it may seem that every character is seeingly against black. but if your character is not/will not act/ evil then you've to prove them wrong IG.
ent can come dressed to town in pink and purples..
I know I would get alot of 'head pounce' comments and fairy ooc jokes. But really when the heck has anyone seen ent in anything other then green and blues?. could be his disguise?!.. What I'm saying that the reminder not to metagame is nice, but somet things should be handled IC in my opinion.
Ent
note: what I mean is that theres a social dynamic, and the beneifit of the doubt is needed as a player to go: hey this char might have a reason to think such. Now how is my character going to speak/act to let him know hes not hostile intent, or to make that character beleive I've no hostile intent.
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Post by DM Grizwald on Feb 5, 2008 0:57:49 GMT -5
As for clark, hey man i know it may seem that every character is seeingly against black. but if your character is not/will not act/ evil then you've to prove them wrong IG. Yes I've played long enough to know this thank you. Though this is one stereotype I don't seem to agree with. Though seems everyone else does. GAME ON
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Post by Aodhan the Unusual on Feb 5, 2008 1:19:59 GMT -5
I don't. Only one of my characters wears black/dark colors, but she kinda needs to for what she does. Got another character that wears bright colors and is less than good. It really is a bad stereo type. It's like saying all people that wear black are goth. Umm... No. Some people just like how it looks on them.
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Post by EDM Entori on Feb 5, 2008 1:39:52 GMT -5
As for clark, hey man i know it may seem that every character is seeingly against black. but if your character is not/will not act/ evil then you've to prove them wrong IG. Yes I've played long enough to know this thank you. Though this is one stereotype I don't seem to agree with. Though seems everyone else does. GAME ON yeah ok, that came out bad, and you've been here longer then me. While I disagree with the stereotype.. my point is, there are countless players who prove it, and thus make up the stereotype in game. so it depends on the character. I didn't mean to 'drag ya down' with that statement, just said that it may be a necessary evil. But I understand your frustration. Ent
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Post by Munroe on Feb 5, 2008 1:44:48 GMT -5
The Deity colours, symbols, divine representatives, are listed in Deity Do's and Don'ts, a web enhancement for Faiths and Pantheons.
I am happy with the status quo as far as black is concerned. I do enjoy watching when evil characters walk around in shiny silver fullplate or bright colours. It gives me a chuckle.
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irene
Proven Member
Posts: 226
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Post by irene on Feb 5, 2008 3:46:04 GMT -5
Um, actually... Black was the cheapest color for many fabrics. ............. Anyway. Light colors/jewel tones from the top. Dark/dull colors/blacks from the bottom. Light colors/jewel tones = wealthy, dark/dull colors/blacks = poor. -pokes- Don't provoke me to derail the subject! Cloth weren't shipped in the middle-age, with the exception of the -very- rare and expensive silk. It was made of what you had, where you lived. What you talk about is the renaissance. But that's another matter entirely. The whole world is opening up, ships have improved, and the access to dying matter has likewise improved. As to religious orders. The only one I know who used black, was the Dominican order, the Black Friars, or "Hounds of our Lord." Initially just a black cape over a white robe. The Dominicans was founded in middle-ages, around 1200 and whatever, and was an intellectual order, fighting heresy and paganism fervently. My subject! Mine. ;D
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Post by Teneas on Feb 5, 2008 7:41:13 GMT -5
As for clark, hey man i know it may seem that every character is seeingly against black. but if your character is not/will not act/ evil then you've to prove them wrong IG. Yes I've played long enough to know this thank you. Though this is one stereotype I don't seem to agree with. Though seems everyone else does. GAME ON Hey man, I haven't chimed in until now. I don't believe in the stereotype. Hell I happen to know an elf that isn't evil at all, abit chaotic in nature, but not evil. And all he wears his black and a hint of darkish blue. CG as well.
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Post by Munroe on Feb 5, 2008 7:54:07 GMT -5
Yes I've played long enough to know this thank you. Though this is one stereotype I don't seem to agree with. Though seems everyone else does. GAME ON Hey man, I haven't chimed in until now. I don't believe in the stereotype. Hell I happen to know an elf that isn't evil at all, abit chaotic in nature, but not evil. And all he wears his black and a hint of darkish blue. CG as well. Don't use this topic as an excuse to start giving out alignments. Other characters shouldn't know your character's alignment and the best way for them not to know it is if their players don't know it. Otherwise, how are we supposed to judge people effectively by the colour of clothing they're wearing? As for Middle Ages and Renaissance, Forgotten Realms is neither of those. Any colour of clothing is available cheaply to everyone. (Except in Thay, of course.)
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Post by SlothfulCat on Feb 5, 2008 8:06:55 GMT -5
Doesn't the first post say black= trouble not evil? Teneas just proved someone's case. ;D
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Post by Charon's Claw on Feb 5, 2008 10:49:39 GMT -5
I believe I get what Manshin is saying. Black to us may or may not be evil, but in the RP setting it depends on how our character sees it and not us. It may be right or wrong.. but that's just how it is IC'ly. It's up to the person wearing black to either prove them wrong or right in their stereotype.
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