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Post by Booze Hound on May 19, 2005 6:37:37 GMT -5
hey guys,
I don't know if i really have a question here, but i have a nagging in my brain, so I'm going to write it down and see what feedback comes.
Rangers-far and away my favorite class to play mostly because all of my favorite fantasy characters are ranger types (Strider, Legolas, Hawkeye-Last of the Mohicans, Drizzt, Wolverine, etc.) all tracker/hunters/sneaky outdoors guys. and man they kick butt at it. But the ranger is tough in NWN. in the single player campaign, several things are next to useless since 90% of the encoutners happen in dungeons. but here it is different, there is a LOT a good ranger can do. I had a great time working as a scout on long missions across outdoors terrain, and dual classing with a couple of levels of Barbarian made good RP sense for a long running outdoor type fellow.
but it still kinda stunk, cause the things that I RP'd outdoors...animal friendship, being stealthy, being an archer, etc were overshadowed by the fact that a fighter/thief could have probably been better at all my specialties than i was. sneakier, heavier damage, nad the ability to pick locks, sneak attack, etc. and animal empathy (another thread i think) is next to useless...
that and no race favors Ranger...is it just me or does everyone else picture a woodland archer type as soon as i say elf? *shrugs*
though i had great RP and had a blast (due to the fact that Vind was GREAT in a group, but terrible alone) I was always having adventures with others!
I have no idea where this is going, i just needed to rant a bit, thanks for listening, and if anyone else has any Ranger rants, feel free...
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Post by Artemisa on May 19, 2005 6:49:37 GMT -5
Do rangers have a special track tool here on FRC? Just wondering..and since you brought up the subject rangers in the first place...  |
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Post by Booze Hound on May 19, 2005 7:35:57 GMT -5
no not right now, there was work being don on a rest menu hat gave said ability, and other abilities for other classes, there is a thread on it, but i just got word from Justi that work on it has been indefinatly put on hold. so...no  you gotta fake it. a good way that i found to fake it was to wear headphones. that way, i could usually hear subtle monster sounds (footsteps, war cries, etc) before many other players and therefore my "keen elf ears" could warn them. |
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on May 19, 2005 8:32:00 GMT -5
*raises an eyebrow at Vind* ARE YOU FREAKIN NUTS?! Dude, as for being stealthy as a ranger you can totally beat the pants off any class for hiding abilities (especially if you were a halfling) because of the spells camouflage and one with the land (granted it is a little bit harder to rp those). Then as an elf with your "keen senses" Hroth could never sneak past you. It is like getting the feat alertness for free. And to top it all off you had barbarian movement/endurance... *shakes his head* I remember all those times that hroth tried to keep up . Sure animal empathy may have been useless in a group because of all the down time that you had to explain what happened to the animal when it went beserk, but I imagine it would have been pretty helpful if you were out in the wilds alone. And dont forget Sasha. I dont know why you never brought that flea ridden mongrel out more  . Sure the ability to sneak and pick locks would have been nice for ya, but that is why you have good ole hroth around . And by far you were the most popular character on the server. I dont know anyone else that got soo much travelling time with other players. You basically had to put in reservations to get in a party with Vind. And if they would have implemented the track tool, you'd have been superior to all other classes. *shrugs* Dont know what else I can say other than, Vind is awesome! |
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Post by Mr. Baboon on May 19, 2005 9:49:39 GMT -5
Rangers don't even necessarilly have to be "nature-like"... just one profession pops into mind, when thinking of a stealthy, evil Ranger:
Bounty Hunter. As Hrothgar said, they are ridiculous at sneaking, and coupled with being able to Track people, and the favored enemy (pick human/halfling/elf/etc.), you make the perfect bounty hunter. Then, for your 11th lvl, take Assasin.... mmmh
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Post by soulfien on May 19, 2005 10:02:34 GMT -5
Anyone else notice that Drizzt never ever cast one spell?
And that he never had an animal companion? No, the cat doesn't count as that was nothing more than a figurine of wonderous power that Salvatore gave him so that he wouldn't have to ever have his companion die.
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Post by MithrilBlade on May 19, 2005 14:10:59 GMT -5
Even Artemis Enteri is lv 1 ranger and that guy have lived in Calimport for his whole life.
I think (at least concidering this thing) that you may pick ranger level for simply becoming expert at hunting some specific creature type.
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Post by Booze Hound on May 19, 2005 14:38:29 GMT -5
see Quad, this is why i always kept you around, cause you know so much more about...well everything concerning NWN than i did/do. I guess you are right, Vind rules! heh, though that was never doubted in my mind. ;D I dunno, I just had a bad dream about him and it gave me a belly ache. Consider said bellyache cured. though it would still be fun on hearing about my favorite class...hey there's an idea...could we get a section on classes? where one could click on the "Paladin" or "Wizard" heading, and there be a forum on RPing/playing classes? would this be useful? *shrugs* maybe. maybe not. anyway, thanks for the input guys, I will sleep beter. Oh and Quad...Sasha is my Harley, Sabra was my wolf. ;D goober ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Booze Hound on May 19, 2005 14:40:17 GMT -5
Bounty Hunter. As Hrothgar said, they are ridiculous at sneaking, and coupled with being able to Track people, and the favored enemy (pick human/halfling/elf/etc.), you make the perfect bounty hunter. Then, for your 11th lvl, take Assasin.... mmmh oh and by the way Quad, this sound familiar? |
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Post by kenny26 on May 20, 2005 18:52:20 GMT -5
in nwn (and 3rd edition dnd) rangers don't seem to be quite as strong as, say a fighter. this has always bothered me alot... a ranger can shoot his bow and be a great archer a dex-based fighter will always be better...  a ranger can two-weapon fight and at lower levels he's always the best at this a fighter who has the dex needed to take the feats can two-weapon fight just as well in the long run all in all, whatever the ranger tries to excell at someone else will be able to do better alot of the time... then i read a friend's 3.5 dnd player's guide and looked up the ranger. now he kicks ass! he has more skill points (6+int)x4 at first level and another 6+int throughout the rest of his levels, making it the best calss concerning skills apart from the rogue. and the ranger has combat styles. pick the bow or the two-weapon fighting, no matter which you pick you WILL be the best at it! the ranger gets all the great feats for his chosen combat style, and he gets them much sooner than anyone else can pick them, plus there are some extra bow-related feats allowing him to do the legolas-trick shooting 2 or 3 arrows at once. these feats should be in the PRC (find the topic in general discussion). [edit] i don't know where the PRC topic went but it's not there anymore. but i think you should be able to do a search in www.nwvault.com/ and find some info about it. i'm not saying the DMs should go ahead with the PRC, i'm just brainstorming as always. and logandoug: don't get beat yourself up too hard because rangers seem a little weak in nwn, you still kicked ass and you're the best archer char i've seen yet. |
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racestark
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R-E-A-D-A-B-O-Okay!
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Post by racestark on May 20, 2005 20:14:13 GMT -5
I'm with logan on this one. Animal empathy is practically useless unless you're by yourself. And since most animals you come across on the server are paired together you've basically convinced one of the animals to assist you in killing its mate. Didn't know rangers were THAT charismatic with animals.
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Post by hoffman900 on May 20, 2005 20:33:12 GMT -5
First off, I dont know about 3rd edition, but when Salvatore's trilogy came out they had a 2nd edition book with the character sheets for characters of most FR novels.
Guess what? Every character was plausible except for Salvatore's, which all had at least one thing out of the rules. Wulfgar had 19 STR (stops at 18/00 for humans in the 2nd edition) and Drizzt had a percentage of killing instantly his opponent with each blow.
This said, characters from novels are NOT good examples.
And try "building" a ranger with a double weapon specialisation and improoved critical. If you also put a lot on stealth you'll have a pretty efficient killer there. Anyhow, since this is an RP server you might want to RP the utility of the animal empathy... Dunno...
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Post by hoffman900 on May 20, 2005 22:01:13 GMT -5
oh, I found the part about Drizzt. Aside from the fact that he has a natural 20 DEX...
"...So accurate are his wicked cuts, that if Drizzt's to hit roll exceeds the minimum required for a hit by more than 5, he scores double weapon damage and has a base 10%, plus or minus 3% per level difference between him and his opponent, chance of killing the foe instantly."
(Halls of Heroes, FR7-9252, 1989)
Gahhhh, enough with Drizzt already. What next? A "Elminster vs Drizzt" movie??!?
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racestark
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Post by racestark on May 20, 2005 22:19:22 GMT -5
You think it's good RP to dominate an animal in self-defense and have it turn on its mate? Sounds like powergaming to me.
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Post by hoffman900 on May 20, 2005 22:52:36 GMT -5
You think it's good RP to dominate an animal in self-defense and have it turn on its mate? Sounds like powergaming to me. No, I think it's good RP to RP the connection a ranger has with animals rather than use whatever the game engine has. |
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racestark
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Post by racestark on May 21, 2005 1:02:36 GMT -5
You do have a point there.
Whenever I do come across a solitary animal I do RP in some manner or another that I mean it no harm and leave it where I found it and "undominate" it the moment I am from it's sight so it won't try to attack me again.
What I want to know is, how am I supposed to RP the numerous amounts of animals that are at least paired together if not grouped in packs?
Do I convince one, being the only one in the grouping that sees my friendliness and have it immediately attacked by the members of its pack? Or am I supposed to ignore that I just killed a half dozen or so wolves on my way to Skull Crag or wherever and act as if they all saw it the same way as the one I "dominated?"
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on May 21, 2005 3:15:15 GMT -5
All I gotta say is that in PnP Rangers are freakin awesome, and they totally got nerfed going to NWN. I mean, they get HIPS at level 17! Plus they get the natural ability to track anything, plus they can either specialize in either two weapon fighting OR archery. And not to mention they have 2 high saving throws (reflex and fort) plus 6+int skill points. And NWN tries to make up for it by giving them +2hp/level as well as favored enemy bonuses are better in NWN and ... ummm ... animal empathy? Granted rangers get wild empathy in PnP but to me that seems like a completely different skill. Yes you can dominate any animal, but for RP purposes this doesnt really make sense. So PnP rangers are much more awesome than NWN rangers, but dont worry doug, Vind is still my favorite. Oh and can we please stop talking about Drizzt as a ranger, cause come on folks, he is more of a fighter than a ranger (10 levels vs. 5). I dont know if Salvatore rolled him first or if he just wrote him, but Drizzt is not a good representation of what a ranger should be...
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Post by Keetena on May 21, 2005 6:53:21 GMT -5
In second edition (AD&D) Drizzt was a ranger lvl 15 - wich is reflected in some books when Drizzt return to Underdark and discover that he's no more adapted to that place - levels don't do a ranger - I saw few representative of a true ranger spirit even in books like Drizzt. He follows Mielliki in such good way (with his heart cause he was taught by Montolio that the true gods are the reflect of your heart) that was even blessed gaining permission to touch an unicorn. Third edition just put a little realism in his sheet, he was a very skilled fighter, and in the wilds of underdark his savage survival instict saved him (the barbarian level is the closer of this definition) but the essence of Drizzt ever was a ranger, even in the wilds of the Underdark he was a very skilled tracker, the problem is, third edition isn't perfect, so I politile ask you to think wiser before decide call someone not a good example of a ranger just because of some levels... but if you wish a good example of a very skilled ranger you have the father of Arilyn Moonblade, Bran Skorlsun (you can see a good story with these characters in Elfshadow of Elaine Cunningham)
To rangers who need kill animals as like as druids I think a good excuse is one I heard a druid saying before: kill only the rabbid animals cause they threat the others with their illness.
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Post by soulfien on May 21, 2005 20:43:05 GMT -5
I just tell everyone to ignore the fact that the animal turned on the party. After all, how many times can you stop RP and say "*sighs* I can never hold them for long"
That doesn't make sense as a druid doesn't "hold" an animal- he befriends it. I say ignore it.
It all goes along with NWN's engine- animal empathy was not intended to force an animal to become a vicious killer and fight to the death for you.
So why RP it at all? Basically, if you are going to use it, then admit to yourself and everyone else that you are doing so OOC.
Edit: There was a low level druid once who kept charming the ox in Isinhold and using it to go fight. My druid Celindra had a field day with that druid! She lectured him about using domestic animals to be his meat shields and called him no better than a Malar worshiper! Then she took control of the Ox and led it home!
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Post by Booze Hound on May 22, 2005 14:16:52 GMT -5
speaking of Trilly the pack ox, I once dominated her when I was lvl 14, and hired a bunch of lowbies to help me escort some supplies for the Fletcher to Waymoot or something. it was a hoot cause the guys had to protect the ox and I spent most of my time trying to keep it under control and out of the fight, then a DM saw us and threw in some more fun stuff. So there, heh, i think that was a good animal empathy RP session. maybe it just takes being more creative. ;D Anyway, I have never been able to play PnP (much to my dismay), and all my D&D experience comes from Baldur's Gate amd NWN, and mostly FRC. but i do some writing , and have a couple of source books, and I just noticed how awesome they were on PnP and what amazing potential they have to be that character i have aleays imagined, and here they just seemed a bit shafted. but anyway, like i said i always had a hoot cause i HAD to party, and i never seemed to lack for willing takers  THREE CHEERS FOR RP!!!!! ;D ;D |
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Post by kenny26 on May 22, 2005 15:31:55 GMT -5
All I gotta say is that in PnP Rangers are freakin awesome, and they totally got nerfed going to NWN. I mean, they get HIPS at level 17! Plus they get the natural ability to track anything, plus they can either specialize in either two weapon fighting OR archery. And not to mention they have 2 high saving throws (reflex and fort) plus 6+int skill points. And NWN tries to make up for it by giving them +2hp/level as well as favored enemy bonuses are better in NWN and ... ummm ... animal empathy? Granted rangers get wild empathy in PnP but to me that seems like a completely different skill. Yes you can dominate any animal, but for RP purposes this doesnt really make sense. So PnP rangers are much more awesome than NWN rangers, but dont worry doug, Vind is still my favorite. Oh and can we please stop talking about Drizzt as a ranger, cause come on folks, he is more of a fighter than a ranger (10 levels vs. 5). I dont know if Salvatore rolled him first or if he just wrote him, but Drizzt is not a good representation of what a ranger should be... the ranger did not get nerfed per se... what you mentioned here it the 3.5 edition ranger. nwn is NOT based on 3.5 edition in it's game mechanics even if FRC tries to follow the 3.5 edition rules. in 3rd edition dnd, the ranger doesn't get hide in plain sight, he doesn't get a bunch of free feats for his fighting style and he doesn't get the 6 skill points. in 3rd edition the ranger does suck and this carried into nwn... |
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on May 22, 2005 15:40:08 GMT -5
*stands up* I stand corrected! |
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Post by kenny26 on May 22, 2005 16:04:45 GMT -5
my point is though:
there are some problems with the ranger class but this is just how it was done in nwn and there isn't much to be done about it to my knowledge unless you wanna use haks.
i have seen a hak file that altered the mechanics of nwn to be 3.5 edition based, but i don't think it's worth the troubles to be honest...
we'll just have to live with how the ranger class works, and the part about animal empathy will be helped if animals are to be made neutral which has been suggested in another topic...
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Post by soulfien on May 24, 2005 10:59:36 GMT -5
About archers, an elven druid makes the best archer around.
Think about it- their rachial affinity to the bow, point blank shot, weapon focus longbow, and zen archery.
Then when they cast owl's wisdom, it's all over!
A high lvl druid can get well over 30 wisdom and when they become epic....
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Cole
New Member
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Post by Cole on May 24, 2005 11:39:38 GMT -5
Perhaps we are looking at the animals the wrong way. Take Aragorn in LotRs. He was an archtype Ranger. A tracker with a great amount of wisdom and woodlore. He knew plants, how to use the plants, and he was great with animals. That is... animals that were goodly. He could tame wild horses and probably had a way with lots of animals. On the other hand, when it came to the wolves if Isenguard, you didn't see him out there making buddies with them. Why? Because they would have killed and eaten him. They were evil.
Some things in NWN are set in stone, so why not find a differant way to RP it? I pretend that because of the blight on the land of Cormyr, all of the normally docile beasts, like wolves and bears have gone completely feral and evil. A ranger or a druid can bend his will to control one or two perhaps, but this control will eventually wear off because of these animal's affinity for evil. It would be like trying to convince a hard-core Starwars fan that Jar Jar was what made the first movie great. Sure, if you have a lot of charisma, and maybe some sort of supernatural mind powers, it would work for a bit, but eventually that geek will revert back to his natural state and begin cursing the day Lucas introduced that monster.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on May 24, 2005 12:56:57 GMT -5
I am looking to change some animal AI sometime in the near future.
One thing though... since when are hungry wolves and bears docile? Big cats? I really don't think they are...
There are many, many confirmed accounts of animal related death and injury in the world every year.
Heck, even domestic animals are known to kill, maime or injure their owners from time to time.
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Cole
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Post by Cole on May 24, 2005 15:12:50 GMT -5
Certainly, there are many hostile animals, but as an avid backpacker who has walked the length and bredth of the Cascades and Olympics, I can tell you I have encountered both cougers and bears many times. None of them have rushed to attack me. Most of the time, cougers follow you for a few miles, then take off. Bears run like hell, 99% of the time. There aren't enough wolves around here for me to make any sort of observation there, but on National Geographic at least, it says that they only have been known to attack humans when there is absoulutly no other food available. I would say the frequency in which animals will jump you in FRC is a bit abnormal. Just more stuff to kill, so its fine with me, but for animals to be that agressive, I like to think that there is something wrong with the local animal populace. Helps me RP it, the rest of you can RP in which every way floats your boat the best. |
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Post by Mr. Baboon on May 24, 2005 23:11:38 GMT -5
It's just something in the water. It makes them all crazy, y'know?
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on May 24, 2005 23:15:21 GMT -5
Certainly, there are many hostile animals, but as an avid backpacker who has walked the length and bredth of the Cascades and Olympics, I can tell you I have encountered both cougers and bears many times. None of them have rushed to attack me. Most of the time, cougers follow you for a few miles, then take off. Bears run like hell, 99% of the time. There aren't enough wolves around here for me to make any sort of observation there, but on National Geographic at least, it says that they only have been known to attack humans when there is absoulutly no other food available. I would say the frequency in which animals will jump you in FRC is a bit abnormal. Just more stuff to kill, so its fine with me, but for animals to be that agressive, I like to think that there is something wrong with the local animal populace. Helps me RP it, the rest of you can RP in which every way floats your boat the best. I want pictures, please... |
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Post by Booze Hound on May 25, 2005 7:17:59 GMT -5
to go along with Cole, I lived just outside Yellowstone off and on for 6 years, as well in the CHugach National Forest for a while, and have seen a LOT of bears, and even a few wolves. had a couple of bear scares, but never a scratch, and the wolves ALWAYS run. but having lived there for so long, I know that it does happen, if you treat them the wrong way. like getting too close, or surprising them. but as long as you leave them alone, you are usually alright. unless they are nuisance bears, which are then put down, usually by...wait for it...park RANGERS!! heh. anyway, I know you are working on the animal script, so maybe it could work that some nuisance types are still out there, while the rest will have like an agro radius or something. *shrugs* i just know I hate to calm one wolf, and kill another. speaking of Brego, Aragorn's horse...are there Horses in NWN? not the rideable kind, that is PrC or something, but some kind that could be dominated?
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you gotta fake it. 
. Sure the ability to sneak and pick locks would have been nice for ya, but that is why you have good ole hroth around 
