If it looks big and mean, it probably is.

[Laurk]

This one was sparked by an event in the regal griffon. I happened to notice twice now, a massive human, as big as a BIG halforc, covered in scars, and carrying a small arsenal walk in and have players insult him and make threatening gestures toward him as if he were a little girl carrying a lollypop instead of a berserker carrying a fifty pound great axe. Here is the trouble. This is just plain un realistic.

As players on an RP server, we need to resist the temptation of looking at the CR and saying "I can take him, he is easy to me." I know its easy to do, but I for one think it would be refreshing to see a large intimidating looking person get a bit or respect when walking through a common room. For realisms sake and all.. without that little CR, not everyone would be so quick to smack talk someone who looked like a pillar of muscle.

As an adventurer, you might be pretty sure of your skills, but if Conan the Barbarian walked in, and you had never seen him fight... most people would at least want to remain neutral until they knew if he was a chump or not. Dont get me wrong, im sure there are a few nut jobs out there who just "assume" they are the baddies mutha's around... but somehow, I think if that CR had been impossible to everyone in the room, the big fella would have gotten a more cautious, or at least neutral reaction.

Of course, you dont have to act like a wimp just because you see someone bigger than you, but walking up to the huge guy and saying things like "Pike off or ill smack you" without knowing a thing about him doesnt seem like something most people would do in real life.

Granted, the two hotshots who got blasted into a smattering of atoms after assuming they could whoop the gigantic seven foot tall barbarian laced in scars from a thousand battles and who obviously is accustomed to smashing faces and drinking blood from horns for no apparent reason at all, might very well RP the type of people who have absoulutly no reguard for personal safety or conitnuing to live beyond the next smart remark, but for those players who RP characters who "want" to live... follow a simple rule of thumb. Just try to RP like you would if you couldnt see that CR. It will add an element of realism to the game that helps bring depth to the RP and overall experiance.

Laurk

[DM Grizwald]

YEAH, i agree. Its also good, for future reference when making the character description of a newly made one to have his height and weight on there. Just so we get an idea

[thogrimur]

This characters avatar alone was massive....bigger than crom massive. I know I would wait until he was out of earshot before I started my *bleep* talk.

I think also there is a flaw in that there can be no PvP within the Inn. It's really easy to be tough in a room where the game mechanics protect you from any physical consequences.

[thogrimur]

And then again if it looks big and mean it might just be a silly gnome projecting an illusion.

[hexer]

In regards to the safety in the inn remark, Thog... I wasn't actually aware of that... I wouldn't hide behind mechanics... As a matter of fact, I did leave the inn.

And in regards to size... Well, my character's taken down bigger things, such as those massive clawed flesh things in the isin ruins, ogres, or those gigantic cubes of ooze. My character doesn't just sit and get bullied or watch his mates get bullied, as evil as he is. He also thought it was tilted in his favor because he's seen his buddy take down larger things as well and was under the impression that, with his buddy's magic in addition to his own skill, he could take the mountain man. Two on one sounds pretty reasonable, especially given the fact that magic can usually level playing fields.

I ignore CR in PvP. *After* the fight I had a look at it. You were Overwhelming, so it definately wasn't the ooc "Oh, I can take him, he's easy to me" bit like you claim.

I've stayed true to my character through every encounter... As a matter of fact, given your CR argument, I'd like to pose a situation where Slithe, the level 5 (4 at the time) when he was trying to goad Deserae Stormbringer ('impossible') into a fight because she was acting rude. So, yeah... CR doesn't mean crap to me. And it shouldn't.

Slithe is an odd one. He doesn't get intimidated by things like size and weaponry as much as he gets intimidated by intellegence and cunning. Melkroth would likely have reacted differently. Hell, most any character of mine would have avoided the mountain man. Not Slithe, though... I'm not entirely sure why you'd bring it up here. It was roleplayed out pretty well in my opinion, and I'm not sure I like having my playing methods criticized so blantantly.


Edit:

If I seem to be coming off defensively... Well, this is a pretty condesceding post.

Granted, the two hotshots who got blasted into a smattering of atoms after assuming they could whoop the gigantic seven foot tall barbarian laced in scars from a thousand battles and who obviously is accustomed to smashing faces and drinking blood from horns for no apparent reason at all, might very well RP the type of people who have absoulutly no reguard for personal safety or conitnuing to live beyond the next smart remark

[catmage]

I'd say my reply is very similiar to Hexer. Ailren's been in the presnce of of creatures that made the barbarian seem fairly puny, and he's been in Torian's presence when she's in a fighting mood. Personnally, he'd prefer taking on the creatures like Ettin than tiny Torian. So size isn't going to impress him too much, unless it's in terms of item collections or gem prices.

As well, anyone who's spent more than five minutes in Ailren's presence knows he's a smart mouthed, ill tempered little elf. He regularly insults Shivata, who greatly outmatches him in physical strength, which he knows. If he's going to call Shivata a hag, knowing her past level of violence, what are the odds he's going to pass up insulting at a barbarian when he sees him trying to wring information in an incredibly unsubtle way?

[hexer]

Just like to add that... well, personally I think this was all dealt with pretty well in -game. Yes, the *realistic* thing did happen. They died! So what is the point of bringing it up here?

If you're going for realism, I was under the impression that two on one would be no problem, especially given some of the nasty spells I've seen coming from Ailren. I don't see what the problem is, mate, I really don't, nor do I see the reason for bringing it up here.

The only thing that ruins the realism for me is when someone goes beyond the game in an ooc commentary. I think the in-game results were fine. Isn't that what the game is about? Choices and consequences? If I'm wrong and the game is about something else, please don't leave me in the dark.

My point, my character thought he had the upper hand. He had numbers in his favor and he was more than confident in his abilities and the abilites of the spellcaster with him. That added onto the fact that he's killed things that were a lot bigger... *Shrug.* Point is, he made a choice in game and did indeed suffer the consequences accordingly, ie, I was playing the game. I see no point in bringing it up here outside of the game. That is what spoils realism to me.

[thogrimur]

I sure didn't mean to imply that you both were hiding behind the no PvP in the inns. If that were the case why would you have gone outside in the firstplace....

Only that in similar circumstance, I 'have' seen folks who talk awful tough and then linger around the inn or go upstairs and log out. It seemed similar enough to the topic but I should have likely just left it alone.

[MTGPackFoils]

Actually PvP can happen in the inn. When the Gnome turned Amra into a rat she turned around and bit him...and the chase was on.

I'm not sure if damage was done because I have the floating numbers, floating words, and combat info all turned off.

[hexer]

Actually, I think the No PvP areas only effect PCs. Meaning, you can attack NPC, NPCs can attack you, but you cannot attack PCs. I'd have to test it out to be positive.

[Dachshund]

hexer said:

Actually, I think the No PvP areas only effect PCs. Meaning, you can attack NPC, NPCs can attack you, but you cannot attack PCs. I'd have to test it out to be positive.

Makes sense since No PvP means No Player versus Player... *shrugs*

[gathera]

Without going into all the reasons why Vara took a swing at Padrin once in the Regal. As it turned out he was standing by Hashard at the time so.... I hit Hashard instead. So the answer to that question is, yes the NPC become hostile and could attack you in the Regal .

[hexer]

thogrimur said:

I sure didn't mean to imply that you both were hiding behind the no PvP in the inns. If that were the case why would you have gone outside in the firstplace....

Only that in similar circumstance, I 'have' seen folks who talk awful tough and then linger around the inn or go upstairs and log out. It seemed similar enough to the topic but I should have likely just left it alone.

Gah, no its fine. I really should just chill out. Just... irritable lately. I'm likely going to be taking a real break from it all soon. Maybe renew my World of Warcraft account and play it for a week or two.

At any rate, sorry I'm blowing up at everyone... Just not having the best go of it lately.

[Gabusta]

Yes, PC's can indeed attack NPC's, but not each other...
Chen once killed both Hashard and Sam, when they was controlled by a intellect devourer

[breckis]

Just to further derail this thread's train. Sure, to a human seeing another human who happens to be bigger than you can be moderately intimadating. But if every dwarf, elf, gnome, and half-ling were to post their heights and weights. We'd all see that were not really all that big. Hell, dwarves rarely go over the four feet mark. And last I checked the tallest elves were only Five feet. And gnomes and halflings are smaller than that. So if you are one of the shorter folk, size doesn't mean much, if anything at all.

[soulfien]

It depends on the PC.

Eliana will run from just about anyone who's looking for a fight. Doesn't matter how big and bad they are simply because she's a wimp and a coward.

Garistan won't run from anyone. Even when he DOES know how tough someone is. If a 7 foot tal scarred up barbarian comes up and tries to intimidate him then that barbarian will most likely get burned.

To an intelligent adventurer, size doesn't matter. I'd be more afraid of Torian than I would a rough half-orc.

[Aodhan the Unusual]

breckis said:

And gnomes and halflings are smaller than that. So if you are one of the shorter folk, size doesn't mean much, if anything at all.

Just look at Tori and how intimidating SHE is.

[Laurk]

Yes indeedy MaO, you need to chill out. heh. You seem to have missed the entire point of my thread. Which is fine, its my fault for being so sarcastic... the sarcasm inside my original post was more for fun. However the POINT remains the same: Nearly EVERYONE in the inn, both times that guy has passed through made threatening gestures, talked down to, and mocked the large barbarian.
Your guy I understand... somewhat. He jumped in for his friend... that IS believable, but what about your friend? Ailren may not respect anyone who he deems as unscholarly, but you'd think he'd respect the fact that getting an axe burried in his guts for no good reason whatsoever is unpleasant at best. As players, we dont fear death or pain for our PCs, but to RP correctly, your PC should have these things in mind. Throwing insults at EVERY large powerful looking warrior who comes into earshot is not a realistic way to refrain from great amounts of physical pain.
This thread wasnt meant as an attack, I figured you'd think it was funny MaO. *shrugs* I thought the event IG was a lot of fun, and the expected outcome did happen as it should have, but I feel strongly that the point I have made here is valid and needed badly to be expressed: We should base things through our characters eyes and try to act as they would, knowing that things can have painful concequences.

Oh, in reference to some of the posts that just poped up. A SMART adventurer learns to not underestimate enemies. Halflings and large barbarians alike. That means anyone who's been around the block a few times should have the sense not to assume they can beat anyone. Sure mucsle, scars and weapons dont insure that a guy is tough, but they certainly help. All im saying is that when you know NOTHING about someone, except that he is obviously very strong and has been in a lot of fights, the AVERAGE adventurer wouldnt just start calling him stupid or tell him to pike off for no reason whatsowever. Am I wrong?

Laurk

[Laurk]

Oh, one more thing. I HIGHLY doubt Ailren or MaO's guy were hiding behind game mechanics of the No PvP settings. Infact, I know they werent, They came out and fought! That was never the issue.

One last thing... you character shouldnt know that he can press respawn. The two guys who lost that duel didnt even so much as have to respawn, so the only one to have negative consiquences was Phelzaron who shelled out a couple grand on raise dead scrolls (and the barbarian who pitched in 300)

I guess, that is the true meaning behind this whole thread. As players we realize we cant die... but our characters should never have the luxury of assuming they are immortal. The RP would be far more convincing and realistic if we "pretended" we might get killed for our actions.

Laurk

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

Something to think about from the latest patch:

-Added a new setting to the nwnplayer.ini file under [Server Options] "Examine Effects On Creatures=1". If this option turned off then any magical effects on a creature will not appear in the creature description when you examine a creature in the game (Note: DMs will still see the effects on the creature).

-Added a new setting to the nwnplayer.ini file under [Server Options] "Examine CR On Creatures=1". If this option turned off then the challenge rating of a creature will not appear in the creature description when you examine a creature in the game.

[soulfien]

yep and I'm sooo looking forward to this too!

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

I think it needs to be put to a community vote though, if we consider turning that on.

[catmage]

laurk said:

but what about your friend? Ailren may not respect anyone who he deems as unscholarly, but you'd think he'd respect the fact that getting an axe burried in his guts for no good reason whatsoever is unpleasant at best. As players, we dont fear death or pain for our PCs, but to RP correctly, your PC should have these things in mind. Throwing insults at EVERY large powerful looking warrior who comes into earshot is not a realistic way to refrain from great amounts of physical pain.
All im saying is that when you know NOTHING about someone, except that he is obviously very strong and has been in a lot of fights, the AVERAGE adventurer wouldnt just start calling him stupid or tell him to pike off for no reason whatsowever. Am I wrong?

Laurk

Actually, Ailren acted exactly how he should. As a young elf with a strong enough draconic heritage to manifest scales, he's going to have a feeling of invinciblity, like most young people. And since he's stood in the presence of Glaberezu, Beholders, and Lycanthropes, and stayed alive in all those encounters without a raise scroll, that feeling is going to grow. Aswell, he saw your character perform an intimidate check. That imeddiately sets him into a hostile veiw of your guy, because he's not passively being big, he's trying to scare and bully someone, which Ailren can not stand. He'll put up with it when he knows he'll benifit from other's being intimidated, but it always makes him angry.

Now, you your self are asking for something unrealistic. Playing a barbarian, you're going to get bull from everyone, no matter how big you are. You're a primative savage in a land of culture and learning. Do you think the Europeans respectfully treated every lone Native who walked into thier establishments with muscles and scars? No, because they thought them nothing more than brainless hicks. It didn't matter how long they survived in the wild, they were from a different culture that wasn't as technologically advanced as the white man. He's going to be insulted in bars, harrassed and suspected by the law, dismissed out of hand.

[Munroe]

breckis said:

Just to further derail this thread's train. Sure, to a human seeing another human who happens to be bigger than you can be moderately intimadating. But if every dwarf, elf, gnome, and half-ling were to post their heights and weights. We'd all see that were not really all that big. Hell, dwarves rarely go over the four feet mark. And last I checked the tallest elves were only Five feet. And gnomes and halflings are smaller than that. So if you are one of the shorter folk, size doesn't mean much, if anything at all.

According to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Faerun's elves are taller than the elves in the Player's Handbook. Unfortunately Bioware went with the sizes in the Player's Handbook when they did the modeling. Faerunian drow tend to be smaller and thinner than most elves, more in-scale to the elves in the PHB. When I find the information in the FRCS again, I'll post the information. (Not finding it right now, but I know its in there.)

[catmage]

The stats for the various races can be found in the supplement Player's Guide to Faerun on page 32, and all elves except for the drow have the same heights, with 4' 10" +2d10 inches for males and 4' 5" +2d10 inches for females. These heights are shared with non-drow half elves, as well as half orcs. Only a few human ethnic groups are easily bigger, the Illuskan's, Chultans, Chondathans, Mazticans and the Turami. The rest of the human race's are approximately the same size.

[Laurk]

Those were good points Cat. But as for the intimidation roll which peaved Ailren, that was more of an effort to remind the players around that they werent talking to a school girl. I actually didnt say anything mean, it was more of a roll to show that the guy was intimidating to talk to because of his size and appearance without breaking into an OOC reminder. And on that note, the big guy DID roll a very high intimidation roll (either a 23 or a 27, I cant remember which). Is Ailren immune to intimidation? Did you make an opposed roll to resist feeling intimidated? The dwarf did and failed, and then proceeded to RP very well a reluctants to be openly hostile toward the Thousand Orcs and took on a more neutral attitude (not wimpy mind you.. just not obviously picking a fight.)
I understand that your PC may not like bullies.. nobody does... but if this were a perma death server, and you knew nothing of that guy other than his physical appearance, would Ailren be so quick to risk his neck on insulting Thousand Orcs for no other reason than he doesnt like intimidating looking people? Some players probably would I suppose, and thats up to you.

One thing however, the barbarians social status in a cultured society isnt really what I am talking about here... im talking more along the lines of: "Should I really be making this massive battle-scared wildman angry to the point of murder, considering I have no idea how tough this guy is?"

I guess all I am asking here is that players treat death as though they are about to level, or are on a perma death server. None of our "characters" WANT to die, even if we ourselves are indifferant because for us it means a respawn or a quick raise dead. Not many would be utterly wreckless with their lives in such a way... perhaps the choatic neutrals or the epics. If Ailren IS one of those, or just plain chaotic neutral, then that is absoulutly cool. This is more of an RP guidline for everyone, not a brow-beat for you and MaO. Does that make sense?

Oh, and this doesnt apply to big barbarians alone. This thread applies to anyone who looks dangerous, weather it be a "salty dog" halfling rogue, a crazy looking mage with a glowing staff and twitch fingers, or whatever.

I think seeing the CR go bye bye will help a lot in general.

Laurk

[hexer]

Well, I'm beyond being agitated now. I've got no problems. But, for the sake of discussion and debate, I'd like to bring up another point.

This isn't the real world... These aren't real people... This is a game. The point of D&D (at least as I see it) is to make a character that is beyond the ideas of the real world. Its a fantasy setting, right? Well, there are countless situations in countless fantasy novels where the little guy beats the ever-lovin' crap out of the big guy. That's part of the fun: Not being bound by laws of reason.

That's not to say that realism isn't important, but in moderation, as it *is* a fantasy setting. The thrill of playing the game is living in someone else's shoes. Someone extraordinary. Doing things you'd never do otherwise.

I mean, if I play scared of some barbarian when its truely not in my character's... er... character, then, by that logic, he should be scared of things a lot more fightening and unnatural, like undead, or monsterous humanoids. If he played scared of everything that *looks* scary, then he'd never adventure and never get into exciting situations which is the point of the game, isn't it?

We play extraordinary people that do extraordinary things... I think that going into the underdark, travelling through orc-infested hills, treking up a mountain in the realm of a giant king, or, heck, even travelling to the Hells itself is far more intimidating than some dude with an axe... Yet we, our characters, do it.


My point:

I'd be far more terrified of a skeleton wreathed in green flames slinging spells at me in some gods forsaken crypt than something like a large man. If I played strictly by appearance, my characters would never leave their homes... Their rooms... their beds... But fortunately, its a fantasy world. I still go adventuring in those crypts... Should I never adventure in those places because everything there *looks* scary?

[hexer]

If it looks big and scary, I should avoid it at all costs. Huh... So much for leaving Isinhold. Ever.


;D ;D ;D ;D

[Laurk]

Thats absoulutly true MaO. And I agree with that line of logic. Adventurers are tough, and not cowards. Notice that Nowhere in ANY of my posts did I say that anyone should be quaking in their boots at the big barbarian guy. Only that it would be plain dumb for another person to toss insults at a very tough looking stranger without knowing a thing about him, unless he had a good reason to do so. Guys like Slate would be the obvious exception. But of course, I wouldnt expect anyone to play a wimp or coward.
The fantasy characters we play are meant to be brave enough to face dangers and overwhelming odds... But where is the challenge in facing dangers if you dont care weather you live or die? This is an RP server, and players who have no fear or concern for dying simply arent realistic to what even the bravest of adventures would be. A good RP server is made all the better when people try to act like they would if their characters were living breathing people... and unless you ARE Slate, that probably means not tossing insults at EVERY powerful looking warrior to walk past.

[soulfien]

Laurk, I DO play my pc's perma-death in PVP. Not against spawns, but against another PC if he/she isn't raised IC, they're considered dead.

I'll scrap a lvl 30 PC with only a minor whimper.

So that being said, my lvl 14 wizard will NOT back off if a large man rolls an intimidate roll of 40. Instead of cowering he'll attack.

Here's intimidate as I see it: Big Barbarian comes up to him and threatens to rough him up using body language and harsh words... it's quite obvious that he's intent on fighting. That's an intimidation roll as I see it... correct me if I'm wrong- I know it depends on the situation and what's going on at the time... but in general. My wizard (who was farming demons at lvl 7 thanks to the Silver Shields) will defend himself.

Live or die, that's what'll happen.

Not everyone responds to intimidation the same way.

On another note.... what is the opposed roll for intimidation? Officially there is none. Is it intimidation vs. intimidation? What exactly is intimidation? I mean if a 7 ft tall barbarian with an intimidation score of 30 gets blasted by a single spell from a skinny little wizard with an intimidation score of 0 that pretty much means the wizard wins right? *grins*