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Post by hexer on May 17, 2006 5:08:41 GMT -5
The fantasy characters we play are meant to be brave enough to face dangers and overwhelming odds... But where is the challenge in facing dangers if you dont care weather you live or die? This is an RP server, and players who have no fear or concern for dying simply arent realistic to what even the bravest of adventures would be. A good RP server is made all the better when people try to act like they would if their characters were living breathing people... and unless you ARE Slate, that probably means not tossing insults at EVERY powerful looking warrior to walk past. Well, like I said, we had the advanage of numbers and magic, and, without checking CR (seeing as how you're overwhelming) I thought that was a good advantage. It all made perfect sense to me. Two on one with a spellslinger at your side. I only started slinging insults when I noticed the mountain man walk up to Ailren who was showing an obvious dislike for the company... And Ailren did what his character always does... He's a snooty little elf with an additute... There are people like that all over in the real world. Many of them get their asses kicked because of it. Its realistic enough for me.
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Post by catmage on May 17, 2006 5:13:35 GMT -5
Generally for intimidate, on server's I've been on, the roll was Will + the target's HD + differences in size category, the rational being that the more experienced you are the less cowable you are, though bigger makes better for the scary. The size modifiers were -1 if you're one size catagory smaller, +1 if you're one size larger, +0 if you're the same size catagory
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on May 17, 2006 9:25:04 GMT -5
Here is the rules for intimidate from 3.5: www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htmAnd anything immune to fear is immune to intimidate (ie pallies). So if you fail your save, YOU SHOULD BE QUAKING IN YOUR BOOTS! This mentality that skills like bluff, persuade, intimidate are brushed over because my character wouldnt respond to that makes me mad sometimes. By saying that, you make those skills worthless to put points into. If sense motive were a skill, if someone made a bluff that he was elminster and i failed my sense motive, I would believe him (if i didnt know otherwise). However, the check for intimidate is readily available for us to use so i think it should work properly. Of course you can't become shaken by NWN standards, but the appropriate RP response can be taken. In PnP, Hroth had a very high intimidate check. I once used it to force another PC into doing something he didnt want to do. Afterwards, he wanted revenge. He challenged me to a fight and hroth lost. I think he rped it very well as he followed not only the mechanics but what his character would do. If hroth met some guy that managed to intimidate him, even though hroth is a veteraned badazz mofo, he would be scared. He has taken down a demi lich and undead dragon without hte blink of an eye, (sorry ainur had to throw that in) but if some dude in a bar comes up and threatens him the way this barb did, he'd be shaking. Doesn't mean he wouldnt try to slit the bastards throat later in the alley, but for the time being he'd leave the big fella alone. Laurk is right, any person who underestimates their opponent is a fool, and their life and them will soon be parted. Now unless Laurk picks someone specifically to intimidate, it isnt area effect, but like he said, we was just trying to make a point. You dont have to be wetting your pants ninny after failing the save, but you are gonna listen and you arent gonna talk back. Sorry i made this post more about the skill than CR.
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Post by soulfien on May 17, 2006 10:19:33 GMT -5
Actually, in PnP, bluff is described as something only to cause distraction at best. You cannot walk in wearing platemail and call yourself Elminster. It's not for telling bold faced lies. You cannot walk up to someone and call yourself the greatest power in the multi-verse without having something to back it up with. Bluff bends the truth. It doesn't break it.
Intimidate as described in the link you provided changes behavior. A stranger comes up and rolls an intimidate check and the target fails their save that person gets marked hostile. PVP is likely to happen.
Quad, let's pull an example out of nature... What happens when you scream and stomp your feet next to a wild animal? It runs away. Now back that same animal into a corner and continue your intimidation and what happens? It attacks.
Intimidate is a great way to start a fight. How do I know? Because I grew up in a rough neighborhood where people would throw their weight around all the time. Eventually it's going to come down to the other person defending themselves. And you had better have some skill to back up that roll of 38 you just made otherwise you're gonna get your butt kicked!
Intimidate all you want, but the moment you step too close it's going to be a fight.
It's the same with ALL of the RP skills- they aren't all-powerful deity abilities. It's not Dominate Person! Persuade, bluff, intimidate etc... they can't control people!
Persuade CANNOT be used to cause a PC to hand over 50,000 gold to you. I don't care if your persuade score is 500 you are NOT going to get my wizard to hand you his prized Greater Staff of Power!!!
Edit: At best a good intimidate roll will cause my wizard to open with his most powerful offensive magic rather than just something to subdue.
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Post by soulfien on May 17, 2006 10:34:25 GMT -5
This is the only part about being shaken... when it is used in combat. You become shaken and suffer penalties on attack rolls.
This means that you CAN attack someone intimidating you. In no way does it cause PC's to "quake in their boots" and refrain from defending themselves. The fear spell does that, but not intimidate.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on May 17, 2006 10:46:43 GMT -5
The skill says the target's mentality turns to friendly, taunt is the skill that marks you hostile, and in fact, that is what the characters throwing insults should have been using. If friendly, they stop throwing insults at the barbarian. They realize this guy is not to be messed with. They are gonna listen to him because they dont want to upset him. We arent dealing with wild animals here. People understand threats. They also know there are ways out of situations without fighting.
In real life, Im not one to back down from a fight. I once defended a friend that nearly ended in a fight, but i wasn't intimidated by the guy. Take real life vind and put him against me and i am gonna think twice about fighting. That's what initmidation is. It isn't "hey, im gonna start a fight." it is "hey, you better rethink fighting me". The situation wasnt the barbarian taunting them into a fight, it was "Stop insulting me or i smash you to goo".
And not to get derailed on other skill checks but ... If my character doesnt know elminster personally, how does he know that he doesn't wear platemail? If I told you in real life that the president wears pink underwear, how would you know if i was telling the truth? Bluff, nor persuade, are able to change what you already know (unlike spells), but they are there for what you dont know. And persuade cannot make you do something so out of the ordinary. But perhaps it could have been used in this situation to prevent the two people for entering a fight with such a crazed maniac.
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Post by soulfien on May 17, 2006 11:05:17 GMT -5
Let's examine an intimidation check. A PC intimidates another. This most likely would entail them drawing their large greatsword and advancing to a range where they are ready to use it. To be properly intimidated you have to have a significant threat, right? You don't merely scream and yell. If I've a broadsword and an unarmed person is throwing his weight around I'll put my coins on myself. If I don't have a weapon and they have a firey red greataxe weilded and ready to go then I may back down, but I'll be looking for an opening at all times! Once that opening presents itself then we go to the combat portion of those rules. People only submit until they get the chance to fight or run. It's been proven time and again throughout history. And if you're intimidating in the inn and have your axe ready to go and you're ready to fight then the guards will get called And I still won't perform actions that will be contrary to my own nature. A lawful good warrior won't murder an innocent child no matter what. Also, it doesn't matter by how much you win your check. In ALL of the RP skills there is only success and failure. There are no rules for winning by 20 or 50 points.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on May 17, 2006 11:44:07 GMT -5
And I still won't perform actions that will be contrary to my own nature. A lawful good warrior won't murder an innocent child no matter what. I agree that the skills wont alter the nature of your character. But they are there for what your character doesnt know. IE Persuade a goodly person someone to not go to war because they dont know the affects. Bluff someone into thinking there may be a group of trolls over the next hill. Not Persuade a blackguard to becoming a paladin . Not Bluff someone into thinking you are their grandmother. Also, it doesn't matter by how much you win your check. In ALL of the RP skills there is only success and failure. There are no rules for winning by 20 or 50 points. Agreed and i dont think it was ever mentioned there would be variances on affect. I agree that in order to intimidate there is an implied threat. However, I dont think it is so brazen as to draw a weapon. And it isnt trying to taunt someone into a fight. This is the situation as i view it: *Barb walks into room* *Two people taunt barb* *Barb smashes a chair over his head* *People reconsider taunting barb* Initimidating can be body language and verbal. It doesnt have to be so blantant as drawing a weapon. In fact, if someone drew a weapon and did not wield it proficiently, i would think more people would be less intimidated. Here is a real life example of when i was intimidated with words: "Your job depends on getting this project done" It was so subtle, and yes the threat was there. But I did realize the implications of what would happen if I didn't do what i was told. Was a gun waved in my face? No. Did it need to be? No. And did i get the project done? Hell yes i did. Could have I stood up and said "take your job and shove it" of course i could, but it was in my better interest not to. Course this also wasnt a life and death situation. EDIT: On a side note, at the time i was being intimidated, i prolly wouldnt have told the boss to shove it. Later on I had a piece of mind to, and i wasn't very friendly to him afterwards. Hmmm ... much like how the skill works ;D
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on May 17, 2006 12:07:01 GMT -5
If that's what you think intimidation is Soul, you've never been in a police interogation or been threatened in any way into doing something you didnt want. Intimidation is simply presenting your self as having the upper hand over your opponent to try and make him back down. Goading him into a fight is a taunt. If you dont believe us, ask Webster. Well put examples Quad.
Im not sure what all the opposition to this concept is. I will point out one thing however... One thing that everyone who is opposed to the idea of having a natural desire to not be killed by acting with a hint of self preservation has in common... if this was a perma-death server... they'd all be dead. Doesnt that say SOMETHING? Thre is a reason there arent any people walking around who act like this in the real world. They are all burried under fifty yard lines. Seasoned adventurers should have more sense. Plain and simple.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on May 17, 2006 12:23:35 GMT -5
I think this topic has been discussed enough. Think over all sides of the issue as both have brought up good points.
I'm locking this thread now.
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