|
Post by DM Grizwald on Feb 4, 2008 15:58:08 GMT -5
I hope any future pvp is done like this. I keep hearing of people getting attacked by so and so and "oh gee, I died but i'm fine now so life goes on". I find it very irritating when things like this are said after a conflict. Life should -not- go on. There should be -some sort of consiquence-. Thats about all I wanted to add Manshin.
|
|
|
Post by DM Grizwald on Feb 12, 2008 19:22:26 GMT -5
I got another question to add to this topic. Does anyone else feel PVP lose its effect when it is abused?
|
|
|
Post by Teneas on Feb 12, 2008 20:39:00 GMT -5
I got another question to add to this topic. Does anyone else feel PVP lose its effect when it is abused? *cough*
|
|
seina
Old School
"Wuv.. twue wuv!"
Posts: 327
|
Post by seina on Feb 13, 2008 7:18:55 GMT -5
"I was murdered -again- today!" "Oh, man. That just sucks." "Tell me about it. Someone cut my head clean off and apparently wore it for a hat for a whole day." "Yeah. I hate it when -that- happens." "If it hadn't been for my wife wondering why I had suddenly gotten all of these red evil looking tattoos, he would still be running about with my head!" "It's a good thing your wife notices things like that." "You're telling me." *silence for a moment* "Hmmm.. anyone feel like going out and killing stuff?" Makes me want to...
|
|
|
Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 13, 2008 8:35:33 GMT -5
*Points to the title of the post.*
A cycle is endless because of the actions of all involved.
Most PvP on FRC is not an endless cycle. So when it does occur I think you really have to look closely at ALL of those involved and why it became so bloody. You have to look at what took it beyond the one death?
|
|
seina
Old School
"Wuv.. twue wuv!"
Posts: 327
|
Post by seina on Feb 13, 2008 11:11:31 GMT -5
I think you misunderstand what I am trying to say. I was never trying to put the "blame" for a PvP cycle on either alginment.
It seems that death (especially death due to PvP) should be, in my opinion, a hugely traumatic event. Not something to be shrugged off lightly. Marching right out and killing the person you think killed you (or having your friends do it or killing their friends) not only lends itself to this cycle and makes things honestly unbelievable (see my above fictional dialog) to the point that death becomes common place.. it is also horribly unimaginative!
If you are killed in PvP, how about RPing your PC actually showing fear of picking up their weapon again.. or heading out on aquest or dungeon crawl.. or having some lasting effects where they limp or roll their shoulder, wincing or touch their neck as if it pains them. Death sucked. Being raised (having your soul shoved back into barely functioning body.. 1 hp) hurt like no one’s business. Do you –really- want to go charging right back out there and risk dying again by hunting the guy that got you?
Perhaps your PC is smart enough to realize that –if- you run right out and kill the person-who-killed-you’s bestest bestest buddy, you are now endangering your own loved ones. If you live by “an eye for an eye” then your opponent will, too.
So maybe the PCs can start using their gray matter instead of their strong right arm.
CASE A: Evil-nasty kills Goody-two-shoes. Goody will not leave the city and has to conquer his personal fears. Goody’s buddies considering slaying Evil-nasty’s apprentice, but that would leave all of their own apprentices wide open for killing.. and it’s hard to find a good apprentice these days. *nodnod* So instead they send someone in to infiltrate Evil-nasty’s organization. Over months and months they gather the information they need.. even turning Evil- nasty’s number two man against him. In the end, they gather enough information of Evil-nasty to topple him and bring him to justice! The storyline took 2 months and tons of really memorable RP.
CASE B: Evil-nasty wants to hurt Goody-two-shoes for a slight in the past. Now.. he could just run right out and kill Goody or pick off his lower level hangers-on, but that’s been done to death. (Pun intended, thank you very much.) So instead, Evil begins to subtly work against Goody. Setting him up. Not actually hurting him, but frightening his lady friend.. putting ideas into his apprentice’s head.. being respectful and kind in public.. while forcing Goody to act like the aggressor. In the end, Goody is driven to act in a purely evil way and becomes a fallen two-shoes. Again, the storyline took months and involved many many people.. could have failed at any point, but in pulling it off Evil brought about tons of really fine RP.
|
|
|
Post by Grozer on Feb 13, 2008 12:08:15 GMT -5
The only issue I see with the original scenario in my opinion is:
"I was murdered -again- today!"
There is a server rule that when dying due to PvP you have memory loss equivalent to 30 mins real life... so the person would not recall such.
*shrug*
|
|
|
Post by EDM Neo on Feb 13, 2008 12:42:13 GMT -5
If someone's running around wearing your head as a hat... I think it'd be pretty obvious you were murdered...
|
|
|
Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 13, 2008 13:14:46 GMT -5
I think you misunderstand what I am trying to say. I was never trying to put the "blame" for a PvP cycle on either alginment. First off my post had nothing to do with your post. It was about the topic of the thread. Read what I posted again. What I'm saying is that if something becomes an endless cycle there is likely a reason that needs addressed. Like my father always said "It takes two to tango".
|
|
irene
Proven Member
Posts: 226
|
Post by irene on Feb 13, 2008 13:16:48 GMT -5
I was reading through these and found this reply that I figure deserves an answer. When I started this thread way back in 2005, we had a lot of PvP going on on the server, and a lot of people complaining about the pointlessness of it. These guidlines have shown over the time since people began using them that they dont increase PvP, infact, they decrease it. They also add a point to it. For example. If two characters involved in a scheme or plot involving dozens of characters, and one eliminates the other, then the elimintaed player is out of that particular plot for a bit. Think of it as playing Dodgeball. Each new plot is like a new game of dodge ball. If you get hit, you're on the sidelines until your brought back in, or a new game begins. The other major benifit and slow-down of PvP is that you have time to cool off and dont go looking for revenge. People who adheir to these principals in PvP arent going to be out greifing one another, indeed, there wont be any need to since the victor doesnt have to worry about the looser showing up and getting right back into the same troulbe that started it all to begin with. So, in the end, I think these rules have greatly helped PvP on this server, so I hope you will reconsider. I would like to add one more "guideline" to this in the spirit of Greene's post. If someone is NICE enough to give you an OOC raise... dont get up and go hunt them down and kill them. That is just rude. Manshin Not quite sure what dodgeball is but I get the gist. ( I think I know the game ) Now... you talk about being out for the duration of the plot? What plot? It's not like it has ended during the 7 - 8 months I have played here. It has just taken twists and turns. Regarding my main character: She IS out of the plot, and has been for months. Since she realized the opposition was way to powerful for her, she had to call it quits. And make a deal with the opposition. However, that was months ago. But the conflict that triggered this is basically still alive and kicking. So what should she do? It's the same conflict, so on one hand she should stay on the sideline. On the other hand, it is so long ago, so maybe she should get involved again? I take death seriously, especially PvP-death. Nothing has changed in the situation, really, so I keep her out of the conflict. That is a choice I have made. But to put my name here, would more or less be submitting to a rule. I would -have- to stay out, whether I wanted to or not. How easy to attack the opposition then, just attack their weaker links and cut them off from the plot by killing them. Seina describes nicely in a post above how ridiculous it can become, if people don't take death seriously. But, submitting to a "rule" like this one, cuts you off from any chance to ever redress the balance, through PvP, or better, through roleplay like Seina also describes. In fact, I find roleplay like described by Seina, a far more interesting way to have conflicts. Because I still don't think PvP proves anything, but who has the strongest build. It puts players who build their characters after what "life" throws at them, at a serious disadvantage, compared to those who know how to make super-efficient PvP builds. Irene P.S. Oh, as a disclaimer, I have my character planned several levels ahead, so I don't claim to be one that take levels purely based on what roleplay has offered them. But they do exist.
|
|
|
Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 13, 2008 13:34:45 GMT -5
If you want to talk about possible issues in this fake senario there isn't really enough information. The only thing obvious is that the person telling the story is either exaggerating, lieing, or has come back to the past from the future.
The 30 minute memory loss could be an issue unless his wife is another PC who actually witnessed someone wearing his head and managed to get it back. If she is a made up character to justify him having heard about it then there is a problem. A DM would have to look into the situation to determine what any NPC's would know.
Also another possible issue would be who killed him the first time and when. "I was murdered -again- today!" could mean that it was twice in one day or that today was just another day he was murdered. If it was twice in one day then depending on if it was the same player who killed his character you have a griefing issue.
|
|
|
Post by Grozer on Feb 13, 2008 13:37:43 GMT -5
In fact, I find roleplay like described by Seina, a far more interesting way to have conflicts. Because I still don't think PvP proves anything, but who has the strongest build. It puts players who build their characters after what "life" throws at them, at a serious disadvantage, compared to those who know how to make super-efficient PvP builds. Just as a sidenote, both of those scenarios Seina described, as well as others in a similar vein have happened on FRC so I wouldnt just assume everybody resolves in character conflict through PvP. For the longest time, oh almost 2 years real time Ranan and Sharita never had a PvP battle, but ask Sharita about her beloved apprentice that fell to Ranan's sway... or how Sharita has plotted against Ranan in various ways. I would caution people to not look at a single incident and claim its all the same old PvP cycle when in fact it might be a single event in a much longer and broader chess game.
|
|
|
Post by Grozer on Feb 13, 2008 13:41:42 GMT -5
If you want to talk about possible issues in this fake senario there isn't really enough information. The only thing obvious is that the person telling the story is either exaggerating, lieing, or has come back to the past from the future. The 30 minute memory loss could be an issue unless his wife is another PC who actually witnessed someone wearing his head and managed to get it back. If she is a made up character to justify him having heard about it then there is a problem. A DM would have to look into the situation to determine what any NPC's would know. Also another possible issue would be who killed him the first time and when. "I was murdered -again- today!" could mean that it was twice in one day or that today was just another day he was murdered. If it was twice in one day then depending on if it was the same player who killed his character you have a griefing issue. Yes Rich I am completely aware of all that, I was oversimplifying the generic example (and basing it on what details were provided) as a way of pointing out a rule which since we have so many new players on the server, they may not be aware.
|
|
|
Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 13, 2008 13:44:04 GMT -5
I thought it a good excuse to shamelessly point out other parts of the rules myself. Game on!
|
|
|
Post by ShadowCatJen on Feb 13, 2008 14:15:42 GMT -5
The PvP circle jerk that has nothing to do with any plots and is simply a means to try and get revenge on someone both IC and OOC.... is frankly stupid and lacking in any sort of RP quality. It also stoops to the level of sophomoric "OMG did you hear what he/she did" shenanigans.
I'll put it this way:
"So, Mitsy cheated on Tommy and he got back at her by sleeping with Amanda. Well, Roger got jealous cause you know he's been after Amanda for a very long time and convinced Mitsy to sleep with him to get back at Tommy."
Now I'll pull a reverse George Carlin:
"So, Mitsy killed Tommy and he got back at her by killing Amanda. Well Roger got angry cause he likes Amanda and convinced Mitsy to kill Tommy again."
There is plot out there. Unfortunately, plots come to a stand still when a crew ends up having to deal with PvP issues that have nothing to do with any quest plots. Getting statements and logs from all parties involved and trying to figure who struck first, what was said, if any griefing or wrong doing had happened....
.... it's not fun. And it gives a crew less time for quests.
So I would ask those who continue to keep the PvP circle jerk going to find other avenues to put your energy into. Please? It solves nothing IC or OOC and contributes nothing to the crew on a quest/plot level.
|
|
|
Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Feb 13, 2008 14:26:20 GMT -5
I think Irene raised a good point about what plot are we exactly talking about. There are two kinds of plots (which can be broken down further) for the purposes of this discussion.
PvP, and PvM (M = NPC)
If you plot in PvP, then you are undoubtedly (as Rich pointed out) creating opposition with another character. Plots against other players will evolve over time and may never end (like Grozer's extended chess game). If they are to ever end, it will take the work of BOTH sides to figure out how to end it.
If you plot PvM, this has the chance of (intentional or unintentional) of drawing in other players. I think far too often plots against other players often spawn from PvM plots. Banites are trying to take over Cormyr, suddenly all the good guys are trying to kill the Banites. In this instance, the good guys have taken it upon themselves to involve themselves in another player's plot. Should they or shouldn't they? I don't know. But I do know that this is the thing that devolves what could be interesting movements of the server into endless PvP cycles.
Personally I would like to see more PvM plots. Granted this requires DMs to really achieve any fruition, but as with most things, unless you begin RPing them, you will not get DM attention. On a side note, asking for a quest or requesting DM attention for a specific event is different than trying to RP out a situation and seeing if a DM takes it on or not.
Side note: The banites vs. good guys example could easily have been reversed with the good guys plotting to take down the zhentarim establishment south of isinhold and the banites targetting them.
|
|
|
Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 13, 2008 14:41:23 GMT -5
If you want to talk about possible issues in this fake senario there isn't really enough information. The only thing obvious is that the person telling the story is either exaggerating, lieing, or has come back to the past from the future. Or I guess it could be a terminology thing going on where today stands for the calender day and whole day just means the daylight hours...
|
|
|
Post by DM Grizwald on Feb 13, 2008 15:42:24 GMT -5
"So I would ask those who continue to keep the PvP circle jerk going to find other avenues to put your energy into. Please? It solves nothing IC or OOC and contributes nothing to the crew on a quest/plot level. "
Pretty please?
|
|
|
Post by Grozer on Feb 13, 2008 15:54:26 GMT -5
"So I would ask those who continue to keep the PvP circle jerk going to find other avenues to put your energy into. Please? It solves nothing IC or OOC and contributes nothing to the crew on a quest/plot level. " Pretty please? I will... after I bury Padrin. Note: humor intended... or maybe not.
|
|
mastersenge
Old School
[orange]Player Advocate[/orange] Scoutmaster of Evil Scouts Troop 1372
"I can't brain today. I've got the dumb."
Posts: 516
|
Post by mastersenge on Feb 13, 2008 16:25:35 GMT -5
I've already tried to bury him. Guess i just didnt dig a deep enough hole.
|
|
|
Post by EDM Entori on Feb 13, 2008 16:57:29 GMT -5
I think Irene raised a good point about what plot are we exactly talking about. There are two kinds of plots (which can be broken down further) for the purposes of this discussion. PvP, and PvM (M = NPC) If you plot in PvP, then you are undoubtedly (as Rich pointed out) creating opposition with another character. Plots against other players will evolve over time and may never end (like Grozer's extended chess game). If they are to ever end, it will take the work of BOTH sides to figure out how to end it. If you plot PvM, this has the chance of (intentional or unintentional) of drawing in other players. I think far too often plots against other players often spawn from PvM plots. Banites are trying to take over Cormyr, suddenly all the good guys are trying to kill the Banites. In this instance, the good guys have taken it upon themselves to involve themselves in another player's plot. Should they or shouldn't they? I don't know. But I do know that this is the thing that devolves what could be interesting movements of the server into endless PvP cycles. Personally I would like to see more PvM plots. Granted this requires DMs to really achieve any fruition, but as with most things, unless you begin RPing them, you will not get DM attention. On a side note, asking for a quest or requesting DM attention for a specific event is different than trying to RP out a situation and seeing if a DM takes it on or not. Side note: The banites vs. good guys example could easily have been reversed with the good guys plotting to take down the zhentarim establishment south of isinhold and the banites targetting them. its getting to a point that I'm thinking of suggesting that player plots that involved pvp involved a DM. So that A there is no endless circle, and a final solution, B a Dm could provide a solution a player could not otherwise, which can prosper Roleplay. The Dm could be just monitoring it too, but either way such examples would not exist.
|
|
|
Post by DM Grizwald on Feb 13, 2008 17:43:40 GMT -5
"So I would ask those who continue to keep the PvP circle jerk going to find other avenues to put your energy into. Please? It solves nothing IC or OOC and contributes nothing to the crew on a quest/plot level. " Pretty please? I will... after I bury Padrin. Note: humor intended... or maybe not. Keep wishing Ranan
|
|
|
Post by DM Grizwald on Feb 13, 2008 17:46:28 GMT -5
I think Irene raised a good point about what plot are we exactly talking about. There are two kinds of plots (which can be broken down further) for the purposes of this discussion. PvP, and PvM (M = NPC) If you plot in PvP, then you are undoubtedly (as Rich pointed out) creating opposition with another character. Plots against other players will evolve over time and may never end (like Grozer's extended chess game). If they are to ever end, it will take the work of BOTH sides to figure out how to end it. If you plot PvM, this has the chance of (intentional or unintentional) of drawing in other players. I think far too often plots against other players often spawn from PvM plots. Banites are trying to take over Cormyr, suddenly all the good guys are trying to kill the Banites. In this instance, the good guys have taken it upon themselves to involve themselves in another player's plot. Should they or shouldn't they? I don't know. But I do know that this is the thing that devolves what could be interesting movements of the server into endless PvP cycles. Personally I would like to see more PvM plots. Granted this requires DMs to really achieve any fruition, but as with most things, unless you begin RPing them, you will not get DM attention. On a side note, asking for a quest or requesting DM attention for a specific event is different than trying to RP out a situation and seeing if a DM takes it on or not. Side note: The banites vs. good guys example could easily have been reversed with the good guys plotting to take down the zhentarim establishment south of isinhold and the banites targetting them. its getting to a point that I'm thinking of suggesting that player plots that involved pvp involved a DM. So that A there is no endless circle, and a final solution, B a Dm could provide a solution a player could not otherwise, which can prosper Roleplay. The Dm could be just monitoring it too, but either way such examples would not exist. Dm's shouldn't have to babysit us when we are playing. I think pvp should be handled responsibly. When a player gets killed, don't just keep playing the character as if nothing happened, take in the consequence of what just happened. If you want a war, don't go around killing as many people as you can...pvp then just looses its edge. If you want to make a player pay, think of other ways asides from always pvp'ing. There is more then just pvp to use when getting back at another pc. Just use your imagination.
|
|
Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
|
Post by Manshin on Feb 14, 2008 1:40:43 GMT -5
Oh you pack of babies! (sarcasm alert)
Its all about common sense folks. This is a volunteer list for those who want to take RP resonposiblity in PvP to halt PvP from becoming endless and keep it fun. Its not really a debate. You can come back into any situation or any plot wherever you feel like. There is no clock, there is no rule... its simply asking that we all try to act responsibly. When I say Ill sit out if I die and let things progress without me, thats what ill do. When "I" feel its time for me to come back in... thats what ill do. No one can force anyone to do anything when it comes to perma-whatever, so its up to us as players to take control of ourselves and sit on the side lines until we think we've stayed out enough to make the other team feel as though they've accomplished somehting. COuld be a week, maybe two... could be an hour and then you come on and RP something unrelated.. its up to you!
Think of it as player "ettiquite." Players helping other players make FRC as good as it can be without DMs having to baby sit us for squabbling over particulars.
Not a rule... a guideline.
Manshin
|
|
|
Post by EDM Entori on Feb 14, 2008 2:08:17 GMT -5
its great for those that have agreed to follow your guideline mashin, then there is everyone else.
|
|
|
Post by Grozer on Feb 14, 2008 14:19:41 GMT -5
its great for those that have agreed to follow your guideline mashin, then there is everyone else. I am not certain what you are implying by your comment, but since I fall into that category of 'everyone else' I will tell you I havent publicly stated I will because I have seen too many situations develop from poor form or metagamed information that I am not willing to 'sit on the sidelines' because of it. As a sidenote Manshin and I have always had a gentleman's agreement along these lines...
|
|
|
Post by Grozer on Feb 14, 2008 14:24:26 GMT -5
I think Irene raised a good point about what plot are we exactly talking about. There are two kinds of plots (which can be broken down further) for the purposes of this discussion. PvP, and PvM (M = NPC) If you plot in PvP, then you are undoubtedly (as Rich pointed out) creating opposition with another character. Plots against other players will evolve over time and may never end (like Grozer's extended chess game). If they are to ever end, it will take the work of BOTH sides to figure out how to end it. If you plot PvM, this has the chance of (intentional or unintentional) of drawing in other players. I think far too often plots against other players often spawn from PvM plots. Banites are trying to take over Cormyr, suddenly all the good guys are trying to kill the Banites. In this instance, the good guys have taken it upon themselves to involve themselves in another player's plot. Should they or shouldn't they? I don't know. But I do know that this is the thing that devolves what could be interesting movements of the server into endless PvP cycles. Personally I would like to see more PvM plots. Granted this requires DMs to really achieve any fruition, but as with most things, unless you begin RPing them, you will not get DM attention. On a side note, asking for a quest or requesting DM attention for a specific event is different than trying to RP out a situation and seeing if a DM takes it on or not. Side note: The banites vs. good guys example could easily have been reversed with the good guys plotting to take down the zhentarim establishment south of isinhold and the banites targetting them. its getting to a point that I'm thinking of suggesting that player plots that involved pvp involved a DM. So that A there is no endless circle, and a final solution, B a Dm could provide a solution a player could not otherwise, which can prosper Roleplay. The Dm could be just monitoring it too, but either way such examples would not exist. While a big pain in the arse I am starting to believe there may be some benefit at least at a minimum of advising DMs regarding potential PvP. I have started doing just that myself when I even "think" something might occur so they are prepared... and its a simple tell on the DM channel I dont have any expectations other than letting them know whats going on since they cant 'see' when someone is put on hostile. At the same time, I think we as players need to have some common sense. Certain things that may work well normally, like talking to a NPC to find if a friend or traveling companion has checked in recently doesnt work with PvP. I wouldnt expect to speak to NPC and 'learn' things regarding PvP plots unless a DM possessed the NPC and specifically conveyed information. The situation is fraught with misunderstandings, claims of metagaming, etc.
|
|
|
Post by ShadowCatJen on Feb 14, 2008 14:41:04 GMT -5
its great for those that have agreed to follow your guideline mashin, then there is everyone else. I am not certain what you are implying by your comment, but since I fall into that category of 'everyone else' I will tell you I havent publicly stated I will because I have seen too many situations develop from poor form or metagamed information that I am not willing to 'sit on the sidelines' because of it. As a sidenote Manshin and I have always had a gentleman's agreement along these lines... I think his comment was more towards those who aren't even reading this thread. There is an element of players on any server who don't check in on the forums as often as they should and just keep on doing what they want to do. My recommendation for this? Send tells to players like that and kindly advising them to come here and read this. ... unfortunately, being that it's 8 pages long I doubt some of them would stick it out to read it all.... EDIT: correction, 6 pages, but I'm certain it will grow to 8 eventually
|
|
|
Post by dmimmersion on Feb 14, 2008 14:41:53 GMT -5
I always try and see what is up if I get a warning PVP might be happening if I am not involved in anything at the time so feel free to throw those shouts up on the DM channel if it is going to occur.
That is when I get the popcorn and sit back and laugh....
|
|
|
Post by amolus on Feb 14, 2008 15:32:30 GMT -5
for the record, i have been reading this thread, and while it is a good idea, as I think it was Grozer who said, it is a recommendation, not a rule, but it does tie in to one of the most important rules of the server: Have fun, but not at the expense of someone elses fun or something like that anyways.
|
|