Wizards and Sorcerors

[henny]

I think I missed some fluff on my class. I have no source books and I have never played a sorceror before. Is it me or does every wizard out there despise me cause I'm A: a sorceror, B: a gnome, C: I'm Meri, or D: I'm Sean? cause I have yet to be able to have a conversation with a pure blood wizard without them insulting me one way or another. The last few days I've taken to returning the favor too! So before I go further with this. Is this supposed to be this way where mages and sorcerors bicker and squabble all the time? If so why? Whats the background so at least I OOC might have some understanding of it. An early thanks for all those that help me out with this.

[Thrym]

Well, dunno if I am a good wizard player, but I at least play them often, so here are my two cents ;D

I'll talk about Wizards. Can talk about them better than about sorcerers because I play them more often. (*coughs* Sorcerers are sissies *coughs*):

Shazzar about: 'How to play a wizard'

Yes, wizards are arrogant often. But think about it... wouldn't they be?

A wizard is someone that worked very hard. You most probably spent ten years or more between dusty tomes to learn the art, and through discipline and endurance you managed to become more than other humans. Everyone can pick up a sword, sneak around or pray to a god. But you are able to reach out for the weave and use it to reshape reality itself by the power of your will. That is something not everyone could learn, it requires discipline, wits, education and... well, you got to be intelligent.

So you got awesome powers. And unlike with all other spellcasters, it are your powers. Clerics and Druids can't cast spells at all, they can only channel the spells of other beings. Sorcerers are children, playing with powers they do not understand and did not earn, they just have them because of their ancestry. It are not their powers, and they are not fully (insert the wizards race) anyways.

But you did it. You learned to use magic on your own. You don't need a god to grant it, and unlike the sorcerers you are still just a (insert the wizards race). Even if you can barely cast a magic missile, you have left your kinsmen behind you and started walking the path to the greatest power a mortal like you can achieve.

You may of course respect others. If they are good at whatever they do, why shouldn't you? If they worked for their strength, like monks or fighters, even more so. But always remember that you are a bit more then them (or a lot more then them if you are evil ;D ). May be you won't show it, Shazzar for example would never have told anyone that he was something better (well, perhaps he had told an orc. But that's it pretty much).

Another thing about wizards is something I saw often. Many wizards don't seem to use their magic for other things than fighting. Hey... you worked for being a wizard. You worked freaking hard. Use it. Of course NWN spells are not really useful out of combat, but you can always RP casting spells like prestidigitation, unseen servant, teleport etc. Your robe is dirty? Other people would wash it. You just invoke a level 0 spell (Prestidigitation). Tea cold? Beer warm? Prestidigitation. You saw a friend in the inn and sat down to him, but now your bottle is on the wrong table? Unseen Servant. You are somewhere in the wild and have to log suddenly? Teleport explains why you are suddenly gone (Note: Teleport is a level 5 spell though, so it does not if you are below level 9 ).

What I want to say is:
RP casting some non combat spells in town from time to time. You are a mage. Magic is no strange thing you discovered one day, it is a part of your live. You are used to it like other people are to mundane tools, so don't hesitate to use it for mundane tasks.

And a last point.
Wizards are educated. Not in mundane things though. Maybe you know nothing at all about the history of some unimportant country (like... Cormyr ;D ), but you know about other things. Go and read a bit about the planes, the nature of magic in the FR, strange magical creatures like dragons, outsiders, undead or abberations. That is stuff you have to know as a wizard (I admitt if I talk abotu the planes, I may tell you wrong stuff. I'll never get used to that stupid new cosmology. Give me the great wheel back! *cries*). Oh, and talk about it with other wizards. If you get the impression just half of the listeners understand it, you are making it right.

Okay... that's it. Got longer than I thought. Perhaps it helps a bit to understand those strange lads with their pointy hats, dresses and strange rambling.

Shazzar

EDIT: The teleport thing was meant for situatons in that you have to leave ooc and need an explanation why your char is suddenly gone... I know you can't teleport around in FRC.

[Munroe]

The cleric points at the wizard and laughs. "All magic comes form Mystra. Haha! At least I know a god's got my back." The cleric sticks out his tongue.

The wizard/cleric of Mystra chimes in. "Gentlemen, please, I assure you there is a purpose for all of us and how we handle the Weave."

The bard in the corner of the room sings a few words and waves his hand flamboyantly. His outfit turns bright gold with the prestidigitation. "Ok, time for a song! Who's heard the one about Studlow and the butter knife?"

The wizard looks between the cleric and the Mystran mage cleric then gives a frustrated sneer in the bard's direction. "If anyone needs me, I'll be in my room, studying."

Short answer is wizards don't like sorcerors because wizards had to work for their abilities and learn their spells whereas spellcasting is an innate talent for sorcerors, who just "get a feel for it."

[Thrym]

Right. I tend to ignore Mystra, a non-neutral god of magic, and especially a good one is just to ridiculous, especially considering she can cut of the powers of the clerics of other gods. Geez, what did they think as they invented that?

[Munroe]

She's only been NG for 14 years since the Time of Troubles (1358 DR). (When Midnight became Mystra 2.) Before that Mystra was LN. According to her description, she is drifting back toward Neutral, so I figure that whole NG thing is temporary. I'm not aware of her ever actually using her Power to cut-off magic to any other deities.

She behaves more like she's the guardian of magic than the fount of all magic.

[Thrym]

I know, but I just find it to be a bad idea. Hopefully that change is complete soon. Now on the thing with the sorcerers though, that certainly is right, but what wizard would admit that, even to himself? ;D

[Grozer]

Well I'd have to agree with Shazzar, he hit all the major points. My alt is a wizard, heh my first NWN character was a wizard and wizard was my favorite class to play during all those PnP years.

Daelan (my alt wizard) gets people wondering all the time if he's evil (he's not by the way) because he is overly proud of what he has achieved. It took time and significant effort. Sorcery is witchcraft and a mochery to the years of study it takes to understand the weave!

[henny]

ok... i've read everything and lets see if i understand this. wizards are .....JEALOUS? cause sorcerers are born better then them...? or cause sorcerers spent there first 20years chasing skirts instead of dusty scrolls? or cause we didn't have to put up with a grumpy master who took out his loneliness issues on his apprentices by finding amusement in turning them into frogs and pigs? Wow. I am no longer gonna get angry at wizards that talk trash. I sympathize with you wizards out there and I feel for you. I'm making it meris mission in life to give every wizard a hug and tell them "its not your fault". thanks everyone, this thread put thing in a whole new light. *shakes his head* all those poor unfortunate wizards out there.... *picks up worlds smallest violin*

[Forum Administrator]

wolfmunroe said:

The cleric points at the wizard and laughs. "All magic comes form Mystra. Haha! At least I know a god's got my back." The cleric sticks out his tongue.

Wrong!


Cheers,
DM Bassa

[soulfien]

Henny, you big fat liar!

Garistan had a pleasant conversation with you!

Garistan's outlook on sorcerers. They're fine until they pass up the chance to study saying they don't need to.

They don't have to work at being able to cast spells, but that doesn't mean they don't need to study to learn how to do it wisely!

Sorcerers, in Garistan's opinion need to study more than mages because otherwise they'll make mistakes or do something foolish or just abuse the weave outright.

It's like a kid playing with a gun he doesn't understand.

[Moloch]

soulfien said:

It's like a kid playing with a gun he doesn't understand.

Ohhhh I like that...

*hovers around Meri waiting for him to cast a spell that could potentially backfire* wait.... wait.... click on hellballs! ;D

[Munroe]

admin said:

wolfmunroe said:

The cleric points at the wizard and laughs. "All magic comes form Mystra. Haha! At least I know a god's got my back." The cleric sticks out his tongue.

Wrong!


Cheers,
DM Bassa

Are you going to elaborate?

[heimdall]

I can try.

Mystra 'is' the Mother of All Magic, the guardian of the weave, etc...

But there are other dieties of magic, including Azouth, Savras, Velsharoon, Isis and Thoth, as well as several others by race Corellon and Hanali for the elves and Baravar Cloakshadow for the gnomes...and others for giants, orcs, etc...

All of these dieties are capable of granting the use of magic.

Mystra "can" block their access to the weave, though it would be extremely unlikey that she would do so, unless the weave or magic itself were threatened.

(At least...that is where I 'think' Bassa is coming from)

[henny]

My apologes gar, i did not remember it, but then again most of my time is spent either around phel (whos jealous of my power and good looks) and vecromere who I think is secretly planning my death. i,'ve had such limited contact with you.. maybe i forgot. and i'm kidding about vecro too. what i have seen is meri walk into a bar and certain trio of wizards absolutely snub him. so that and recent events with wizards is what led me to think that wizards dislike sorcerers.

and since im making an effort to not look like im pging i rarely cast anything besides buffs on my friends. so hellball away! its their funeral lol!

[Booze Hound]

admin said:

wolfmunroe said:

The cleric points at the wizard and laughs. "All magic comes form Mystra. Haha! At least I know a god's got my back." The cleric sticks out his tongue.

Wrong!


Cheers,
DM Bassa

Bassa? Elaborate? yea right. He loves smiting us with his godly grasp of FRC/DnD knowledge, and watching us squirm under his gaze.

So...does this mean Bassa is back? Cause I personally thought you were one wicked DM, and your wickedness has been missed. (show that upstart Hexer what real wicked DMing is)

;D ;D

[DM Valkyrie]

I believe DM Heimdal has it right. There are other gods that grant arcane ability and knowldge, Azuth and Shar are the first that came to my mind.

Shortly after the Time of Troubles, Mystra did run around denying the use of the Weave to people she didn't particularly like how they were using it. This included the god Cyric. Not to spoil a good series, if you want more detail on the events, and why she no longer denies the Weave, find the Avatar Series of books...excellent books that give good insight on Midnight/Mystra and the way the Weave works.

[Forum Administrator]

wolfmunroe said:

admin said:

Wrong!


Cheers,
DM Bassa

Are you going to elaborate?

Sure. Purchase this book 'Forgotten Realms - Magic Of Faerûn'.


Cheers,
DM Bassa

[Forum Administrator]

heimdall said:

Mystra "can" block their access to the weave, though it would be extremely unlikey that she would do so, unless the weave or magic itself were threatened.

(At least...that is where I 'think' Bassa is coming from)

M'yep.

[MTGPackFoils]

Usually when I play a Sorcerer in a NWN online way that class is usually the 2nd one I add in. Sorcerers gain their power without any real rhyme or reason. Sometimes it's due to an ancestor, sometimes it's because there is dragon blood in their veins, and (if any of you read Dragon magazine) sometimes it can come from the gods themselves.

So with Amra her sorcerous powers "happened"...and it happened in game (while coming back from the catacombs with Kelyan)...and due to this it's opened up a lot of RPing chat. Most wizards Amra has talked to don't really have a way to help her properly because while they both channel the same part of The Weave, it's in a different way.

So while sorcerers clash on a social level with wizards, it's not always true.

-Scott/mip(23)

[marklar]

i deal with the wiz VS sorc in 2 different ways

A. the wizard is very jealous of the sorcerer because the wizard has to work extremly hard fo their power when a sorcerer just goes blah and bam uber spell powers.

OR

B. the wizard is interested in the sorcerer because of the fact that their powers are natural and tries to find out where or why this poerson has those powers.

BTW i hate playing sorcs so that's why my 2 options are from a strickly wizard point of view

[hexer]

Well, the way I've always viewed it isn't so much jealousy of the sorcs as it is 'abuse'. They use their innate powers to harness magic instead of carefully studying. Wizards feel, at least in my opinion, that it is reckless, stupid, and an abuse of the weave that took no discipline to use, thus making the user unprepared for such power.

[Myth]

Yup, I know I'm digging a burried thread and I hope you don't mind.

What I actually want to see, is people taking the sorcerer class, be it a 2nd, 3rd or 1st class, to give some RP behind it.

This goes true with quite most of the multiclassing. If you -are- going to multiclass your char, put some RP in, and not just click the alt class when you level. Yes, you decided your fighter to get rogue classes to get a nice sneak while he KDs (not acceptable reason to many but it's real that people will do so), before taking the class, hang around with a couple of rogues, ask them about things, study their ways, do something to make it convincing.

This goes especially though for Prestige Classes. Prestige classes are something to be taken -very- seriously and I would like to see an application system for each one of them. A bard can't just ... discover that he's dragon-blooded, unless this happens through rp for example, neither can a wizard just go palemaster in a split second and start raising undead. A rogue doesn't just simply become an assasin. He needs training.

And... finally, I'd love to see more rules in multiclassing.. Why would a paladin multiclass into anything other than a divine champion for example? Food for thought.

Just my two cents again, and sorry for digging the thread.

[Panros]

Honestly, a wizard and sorcerer are the same thing. That's like saying a cleric and druid of Silvanus aren't the same thing. One is just more woodsie or healer-ie than the other, and in regards to a wizard and sorcerer, one is more pretty or smart than the other.

They're all sissies anyway.

"So the Panros speak'th and so the world be'th." - Panros

[ShadowCatJen]

Eh, there actually are multiclassing rules here. Especially when concerning paladins. FRC basically follows what's in the sourcebooks.

As for picking classes for no RP reason other then to powermod, the DMs do keep tab on that. Taking a class for no other reason then to powergame your character is very much frowned upon.

And you have it wrong Panros. Sorcerers are Pretty Pretty Princesses and Wizards are Big Smarty Pants. At least have the terminology down. Sheesh!

[Panros]

Uh, yeah, *chuckles nervously* I forgot about the terminology. Sorry everyone. *rubs the back of his neck*

[DM Grizwald]

uh.........SORCERERSAREBETTER!......ahem....sorry i seem to blurt things out sometimes

[soulfien]

hahaha! nope! Sorcerers are horrible.

They only have so many different spells to choose from that they can cast repeatedly. I've yet to see a sorcerer who could attack AND defend half as well as a wizard

There's more to life than fireball and flame weapon

[EDM Neo]

*casts Raise Thread*

I had a conversation recently about about this, so, when this was the most relevent thread I was able to find with a search, I thought I might as well post here instead of making a new topic:

I'm just looking for other people's thoughts on how sorcerers acquire new spells.

Is it entirely unconcious, and development of sorcerous abilities is entirely innate and out of the individual's hands, or is it something they can influence through effort and practice, and otherwise effected by their enviroment?

Should their spells build on each other, or can they be more or less unrelated to each other?

Example of this last question, which would be more acceptable, if you feel either scenario is "better" then the other, 1. a sorcerer knows how to cast lightning bolt, and later builds on this to learn to cast chain lightning, or 2. if they can instead cast fireball, and later pick up chain lightning without ever mastering lesser variations of it?

Etc, etc?

I already have my own thoughts on the matter, which I may share when it's not almost 1 AM, but for now, I'd just be appreciative if others could tell me their take on things, to help me better shape my take. I don't expect any single correct answer that universally applies to all characters, just looking for other opinions.

Thanks.

[The Supreme Watcher]

Ehem.

*prepares to unleash Monster Mixxd and Doritos enhanced threadfury*

SORCEROR:

Charisma based spell caster.

WIZARD:

Intelligence based spell caster.

THE DIFFERENCES:

Sorcerors, when reaching puberty, exhibit the ability to cast cantrips. There is more than one story of a young child, in a high stress situation (yes, it is nearly always revealed by stress) launching a ball of acid from its fingers and killing someone, or suddenly bursting light from his body, or blinding someone temporarily with a bright flash.

Whether they embrace it or not, a sorceror has always received his powers before FRC's allowed age for a character (unless there's suddenly been a change of rules and pre-pubescent characters are allowed). Their charisma determines the power of their spells, and this isn't to say "Grr, I'm pretty! Lookit my fireballs! Foosh foosh!", nor is it to say "Look at how handsome I are. Finger of death." NO.

Charisma based spellcasters are known for bending people to their will. Several examples are: Raistlin Majere (yes, yes, he's a sorceror, just look at the Age of Twins series books), Gandalf (did you ever see that broham with a BOOK?), and that cool dude with the strappy-legged pants in the Player Handbook, Hennet. Are any of them particularly pretty? NO. They are all powerfully willed, as to say: Raistlin was so influencial he broke a dwarf's mind into falling in love with him. Gandalf single handedly threw the curse of Worm Tongue off of the King, and Hennet... er, he can make green stuff come out of his hand.

Wizards, on the other hand, are not particularly "talented" in the Weave. They earn their skills by digging and searching, learning and writing, reciting and reciting again. Wizards are usually a lot older than sorcerors when they achieve the ability to cast the same cantrip, say, college age. Until that time, they are taken under the tutelage of an accomplished wizard, and schooled in the ways of discipline, patience, and concentration. Often, these rigorous exercises break their wills; few students ever really make it to become a wizard. Still other times, it will drive them mad with hunger for knowledge, creating some of the most malevolent wizards in existence (a la Hosttower).

The life of a wizard is not undertaken easily, even less so for specialist wizards. The hours of reading every day (for, despite how many players on FRC make it a short practice, it takes an hour to read a spellbook, and I would make this even longer in my campaigns for high-level wizards!), the endless observation, calculation, and even devastation (evokers), modification, manifestation, and distinct LACK of recreation, make this a most unappealing occupation for anyone not willing to give up everything for the magic (if you haven't yet, I suggest reading the Dragonlance books to get an idea of the sort of rigors wizards go through).

Wizards get their spells from intelligence. In other words, they must have the memory to remember even the most minor of details in the inflection, the tempo, the volume and pitch of an incantation for it to be successful. The slightest waver in their words, and the spell could be weakened, fizzle out, or, even worse, go awry. Suddenly your strength spell becomes a Flesh to Stone. Those with middling intellect will never become wizards bright enough to master the most powerful of spells, and even those of superb mind will never make it to Archmage. Truly, only people with a seemingly endless capacity for memory and knowledge ever assume the mantle of Master.

As for how spells levels are obtained...

Sorceror's powers are nearly uncontrollable. They are predetermined by birth, DNA, personality, and experience. If they surround themselves with death, then I assume they'll eventually become necromancers. If they surround themselves with flames, they'll learn lots of fire-based spells. In the realm of Nature v. Nurture, Sorcerors are a hodgepodge. They learn to better use their power, but they are influenced by the outside world.

Wizards, on the other hand, learn what they want when they want. They study the spells they desire to study. They cast the spells they want to cast. They can learn as many different types, or as few, as they want.



And as a closing statement, I would like to say, spellcasters are lame. Get a sword and be a rogue/fighter/barbarian. It's simple! You point, you stab, you laugh!

[Micteu]

Looks like Glandash is gonna have trouble finding people to buff him.

I've thought about it for a while, and I couldn't come up with a good RP reason why sorcs should be able to take higher-power spells without getting the lower first. I can see them ditching the lower-power one once they get the higher-power one, yes (removing Fireball from their "book" while adding Delayed Blast Fireball in the same level-up), which could maybe be considered the caster having a sudden insight as to how to make his or her spell more powerful.

This gets lots more complicated with spontaneous learning of high-levels spells that are not related at all to any others available in NWN.

Hmmm. Maybe with the flashes of insight, they could get really good flashes and suddenly learn Chain Lightning without learning Lightning Bolt first? Ultimately, I would say I don't know what I'm talking about.