Wizards and Sorcerors

[EDM Entori]

Richard baker in his novels (boo not source but a guy who writes source)..

had a sorcerer as a main character, the sorcerer, learned by watching others cast the spell, and was just able to recreate it, and I assume when he changed his spells (level up) new spells became available at the time, he saw another mage use it.

I would differ, from all the battles encounter/spells seen, he would learn it that way.

or (could), there is also a sorcerer can study and just find some come more freely, like a person who can do complex tasks (but only some) skillfully the first time, and can continue to do so ,like students who can ace landing a plane, but find turns difficult, so they continue to study more indepth on how to land.

nwn 2 has a good example of a sorcerer, her personality relates in the spells she takes, so that shows the charisma mod. the personality reflects the magic, (which is excellent rp IMHO). again I play a wizard and I'll deffer to what the others have said, I play a wizard for that reason. sorcerers are just too darn silly:P

[ShadowCatJen]

The way I've sometimes done it is that if the Sorcerer has been traveling for a while (i.e. gained in experience and levels) and has been privy to witnessing a spell being cast by another wizard/sorcerer... then they get a sense for how the weave actually works around that spell and try to replicate it through their own powers. Now I know that sounds a little more Warlock-ish, but in a very basic sense when magic is used all that's happening is the weave is being bent and used in the way the caster wills it to be bent.

If a sorcerer sees/senses a spell cast enough times in their presence then they should know the spell just enough to be able to cast it on their own. Granted not well at first (which is reflected by the number of times a sorcerer's highest level spell can be cast per their level) but as time comes round they'll get better an better at it, even if it's a type of spell contrary to the ones they already have.

This can also easily be RPed by having the character either bug a finger wiggling mentor (be it another PC or an off camera NPC) or poke their curious noses into a wizard academy or something along those lines. If the mentor is another PC then that can certainly generate some nice RP along the way.

EDIT: *points up at Entori's post* Oot! Posted at same time with generally same thought! ;D

[EDM Entori]

haha cool,

that aside, 'if' you put points in spellcraft as a sorcerer, you should consider what that means in rp, in feel of the weave, how that reflects upon the character, personal study,quiet reflection etc.

Spell craft is a skill that tests knowledge about magic, and its workings (or to me I don't have an exact definition)

Ent

[The Supreme Watcher]

I just want to say that NO WHERE in any source book, novel, or forum thread are these last two posts reinforced.

Sorcerors don't get their spells from "learning." That goes against the nature of the class!

Sorcerors DO NOT adopt mentors. I have always been against this line of thinking, and I will cite Entori's own example for it.

Qara, the Sorceress from NWN2's OC, is a college flunkie because she refuses to be taught, and she believes it is the others' fault that they can't harness magic naturally like her.

On the other hand, a wizard would criticize her for her (obvious) lack of discipline: she uses the Weave like a toy, a game, not with the gravity that others (Sand) use the Weave.

DO NOT think that your sorceror gains powers from thought, contemplation, or training! It goes COMPLETELY against the class!

A sorceror's powers are inborn. A good example is to look at a pyramid in the desert.

The pyramid is buried in the sands of the desert, and when the child reaches puberty, stress, biological changes, and other factors cause some of the sand covering the pyramid to be blown away, revealing the point of the pyramid.

Over time, as the sorceror blows away more of the sand, more of the pyramid is revealed. More powers are granted to the sorceror, not from "practice," not from "leaning," but from natural discovery.

A sorceror's powers aren't "built" as a wizards; quite the contrary, actually. A sorceror's powers have always existed. It is a matter of unearthing them.

[EDM Neo]

Just out of curiousity, Glandash... if it's all innate and just comes to them without any kind of effort on their part, and they're incapable of altering their powers by any act of practice or will, why are sorcerous spells granted through class levels instead of feats or some other mechanic? What would gaining experience in order to gain a level represent? Just the passage of time?

By your argument, if someone has sorcerous abilities that are revealed naturally over time, why can't they allow their powers to continue to develop, while training themselves as a tough (but very pretty) fighter, taking levels in a d10 HD class that represents having put time and effort into developing their physical prowess?

[guest]

Could it not be both? There is more than one way to skin a cat and some find the path through different means is what I would think.
It is like comparing two poets. Elizabeth Barret Browning vs ee cummings. Both wildly different but equally adapt writers. Both are poets and wield words but in drastically different ways.

[Charon's Claw]

I would say they unearth it naturally. They don't focus on learning new things but that just comes with time and what not. What they do focus on is learning to control what is already there. If magical things randomly shot from my fingers, I know I'd like to have someone teach me how to not sneeze and kill someone.

P.S. Not a DM ruling but my perspective.

[acmeinc]

Nov 6, 2008 18:19:42 GMT -5 Charon's Claw said:

I would say they unearth it naturally. They don't focus on learning new things but that just comes with time and what not. What they do focus on is learning to control what is already there. If magical things randomly shot from my fingers, I know I'd like to have someone teach me how to not sneeze and kill someone.

P.S. Not a DM ruling but my perspective.

I think you're on to something.

If you look at the whole advancement picture, sorcs also advance on the high side of will saves. It could be inferred that the increase in will power comes about due to the amount of will power required to actually control and channel the ever growing power within themselves.

I can't site anything atm, but I seem to recall examples of young soon to be sorcs that had mishaps with uncontrolled magic early in their lives. It seems to take practice and time for them to develop the skills and will to control their magic.

JMO,

[The Supreme Watcher]

Someone's got to keep the winds blowing. If you stop the brisk breeze that's blowing away the dust from your pyramid, you get no more unveiled.

I'm not saying you can't get sorcerous powers while training in other things, that would be a multiclass character. However, every time you look away from your sorcerous powers, the wind stops. If you start blasting things with your innate powers again, the wind will blow once more.

It's like a muscle. The more you flex it, the stronger it gets. If you're on a hard chest exercise regimen, you'll get huge pecs. But they won't keep getting bigger when you're doing leg exercises. The same thing is true of sorcerors, which is why as far as characters and age goes, sorcerors are much more likely to reach epic at an age far younger than most wizards, it's just an exercise to them, not necessarily a way of life.

Will saves can be represented in a lot of different ways. Merely thinking "I'm too good to be beaten by THIS." could be a boon to your will saves (a la Iron Will feat). Sorcerors, by their natural affinity to the weave, are more likely to be bullheaded in their approach to magic, and since they're known for being indomitable, they can pull themselves through mind-affecting spells like they're nothing.

And, Neo, SORCERORS DON'T HAVE TO BE PRETTY! GAH!

Also, Paco, citing different forms of poetry is exactly like comparing wizards and sorcerors.

A poet who follows Iambic Pentameter is a wizard.

A freeform poet is a sorceror.

Edit: I'm a dick and had to make myself look smart.

[guest]

Nov 6, 2008 20:02:50 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

Also, Paco, citing different forms of poetry is exactly like comparing wizards and sorcerers.

A poet who follows Iambic Pentameter is a wizard.

A free-form poet is a sorcerer.

That is what I am saying though. Magic is a Art form and there fore it cannot be so narrowly defined as wizards and sorcs as it takes many different avenues. Rune casters vs elvish high mages vs orcen witch doctors would all be different forms of magic. Say all three cast the spell magic missile.
One does it with a rock which takes the form of magical energy. Another does it with his words and his ugly pointed ears. The goblin waves a sharpened rat leg and shoots the magic out from it.
The missile still does the same damage and the untrained fighter still feels the sting BUT all three tapped the weave a different way. Arguing how they did is as pointless as arguing how one writer wrote Romeo and Juliet while another wrote The Fountainhead and the third wrote Jonathan Livingston Seagull.
All three are great in there own way but I am pretty sure al got there their own specific way.

[EDM Neo]

Nov 6, 2008 20:02:50 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

And, Neo, SORCERORS DON'T HAVE TO BE PRETTY! GAH!

Sheesh, calm down. I used the term because it was convenient and I presumed everyone would get what I meant by it.

Again, by the way, I don't think there's any single right answer to this. Just like not ALL rogues are petty thieves and not ALL wizards use their magic in the same way as Paco pointed out, etc, etc. I don't think we really need to get to pointing and screaming "NO THAT'S WRONG ONLY MY INTERPERTATION IS CORRECT," my question was more to clarify things so I could have a better idea of your opinion on the matter, not to try to poke holes in your ideas, put anyone down, etc.

Just looking to see how other people play it, not looking to tell people they can't play their characters how they want to.

Not that a little healthy discussion and debate ever killed anyone.

[The Supreme Watcher]

Sorceror is a pretty cut-and-dry class.

Wizards come in many shapes and forms, from runecasters to shamans, these are magical traditions, taught to the children in schooling.

Sorcerors, on the other hand, get their abilities innately.

Personalities might be different, but the idea of how they get the power is the same.

[Munroe]

Psionics kicks sorcerers' asses.

Sorcerers manipulate the Weave, which is an object outside of themselves. The Weave is a great net that catches raw magic and allows it to be used by beings. Sorcerers are naturally skilled at manipulating the Weave by virtue of their Force of Personality, but they are users of the Art, and the Art is the art of using the Weave. They do not study incantations and spellbooks as a wizard does, instead they make the magic do what they want by force of will. Where wizards learn spells and are mastered by the Weave, sorcerers learn to lord over the Weave and make it obey their whims.

Psionics manifest powers from within themselves. Their power does not come from the Weave and is not Magic in the same sense that Magic is Magic.

Sorcerers are not psionics but Weave-Magic users that cast spells by domination of the Weave.

[brian333]

In my spare time I pretend to be a writer of fiction. It's my art, and I developed it from a natural talent to create and tell stories; it's something I've always done almost as much as I've devoured the stories written by other writers and storytellers.

Some people paint, others sculpt, a few make music, and make macrame. How we go about the persuit of our art depends less upon the existance of art and more on how we personally interpret what we see and feel.

Just as there are as many methods of releasing that inner fire in real life, it's reasonable to assume there are as many ways of releasing it in FR.

Wizards study and follow rules to enjoy their magical abilities, but sorcerers draw upon the force of their own personalities: why can't the manifestation of their magic be as individual as their personalities?

Some would study other casters of magic to repeat what they do, some would study the written material available, some would draw upon their emotional outbursts, and some would innately and spontaneously use magic. They would all learn to do what they do better with practice over time.

[ShadowCatJen]

I started to type something... but you know I think I'm just going to go back to the original question. I wasn't aware that the sourcebook branding iron was being flung about here lately with such immediacy. My mistake for using the word "Mentor" when all I meant by that was "a more powerful mage friend who knows the spell".

which would be more acceptable, if you feel either scenario is "better" then the other, 1. a sorcerer knows how to cast lightning bolt, and later builds on this to learn to cast chain lightning, or 2. if they can instead cast fireball, and later pick up chain lightning without ever mastering lesser variations of it?

Either way is acceptable, but in an RP sense there are some differences between the two ways.

For the first one you're trying for some character personality by having your sorcerer be more attuned to something like lightening or fire or summoning things. That could be because of some personality trait or possibly having a particular sort of bloodline that lends more to particular sorts of spells.

And example would be a sorcerer with a good dose of blue dragon blood in them might find they have an easier time with lightening spells. This can be used as a tool for some roleplay character development as you gain in levels.

To the second one you could do it one of several ways.

One would be that your sorcerer character really doesn't have any specific leanings toward particular sorts of spells. This way you leave it open to be able to choose any spell you care to. Doesn't give much in the way of character development other then to say, "I'm more powerful, look what I can do now." It's the most simplistic way to go about it as far as roleplay is concerned.

You can also do it this way even if your character has specific spell leanings. Again, it would just be a sudden case of your characters innate abilities kicking in. It might be off character, but I suppose the "I just suddenly could" line can always work.

Though if you care for something that would involve a bit more character development and maybe even some roleplay with your fellow players... I go back to my original point. Have it that during your sorcerer's travels he either witnesses/senses/gets hit by/sees a particular spell that you'd like your character to access. In order to be more familiar with the way the weave is bent in order to cast that spell he can bug and pester people that have the ability to cast it and just show it to him a few more times. He can even be really eccentric and go after particular foes that cast that spell (like Mage Bandits that cast Fireball). There are lots of different ways he can go about it.

Then with your sorcerers innate abilities he'd be able to try to bend the weave in the way he saw it done. No books, no learning, just trying to replicate it by bending the weave to his will.

This can serve to press that "jealousy" point with any fellow Wizards your character travels with and have them say "... but I spent two years trying to learn how to cast that properly. You do it in one week?"

To which your sorcerer can then reply, "Guess I'm just born with it."

So to sum up, it's all acceptable. It just depends on how much roleplay you want to put into it.

[iangallowglas]

Seamus is a sorcerer, and he's a Damn good looking man! ;D

He discovered his sorcerous abilities, when he walked in on the murder of his mother at the tender age of 13. In his anger and fright a blast of cold shot forth from his hand and struck the murderer down.

He is a warrior, so his spells tend to manifest themselves in the form of protections, and enhancements to his combat ability. I use the word manifest, because I don't see him actually trying to learns spells, they just happen. It makes sense to me that he needs to see a spell cast and think "I wish I could do that" before he can cast the spell. I think there needs to be a sense of want or desire for a sorcerer to be able to cast a spell, and that's why they loose spells they no longer feel are useful, and gain the new spells the desire.

In Seamus' case he his sorcerous abilities are currently being directed into the manifestation of his draconic form (RRD Prestige class), and that is my explanation for why he is currently not gaining or losing any spells.

So basically, I feel that sorcery is rooted in emotion and desire, and wizardry is rooted in logic and reason.

Or it could just be that sorcerers are EMO , and wizards are nerds )

[Micteu]

Nov 6, 2008 0:39:43 GMT -5 EDM Neo said:

*casts Raise Thread*

I had a conversation recently about about this, so, when this was the most relevent thread I was able to find with a search, I thought I might as well post here instead of making a new topic:

I'm just looking for other people's thoughts on how sorcerers acquire new spells.

Is it entirely unconcious, and development of sorcerous abilities is entirely innate and out of the individual's hands, or is it something they can influence through effort and practice, and otherwise effected by their enviroment?

Should their spells build on each other, or can they be more or less unrelated to each other?

Example of this last question, which would be more acceptable, if you feel either scenario is "better" then the other, 1. a sorcerer knows how to cast lightning bolt, and later builds on this to learn to cast chain lightning, or 2. if they can instead cast fireball, and later pick up chain lightning without ever mastering lesser variations of it?

Etc, etc?

I already have my own thoughts on the matter, which I may share when it's not almost 1 AM, but for now, I'd just be appreciative if others could tell me their take on things, to help me better shape my take. I don't expect any single correct answer that universally applies to all characters, just looking for other opinions.

Thanks.

Heh. Good thing you didn't expect any correct answers, because people are answering a different question that nobody asked.

[maeglhachel]

This thread may be dead, but since I stumbled across it, I'm going to add my 2 cents.

To me it's very interesting to see how src and wiz are alike and yet very different. I always understood that wizards have magic in their brains whereas sorcerors have it in their soul, intelligence vs. intuition.

To give a real life example, I can relate to: When solving an IT problem, you certainly have be very analytical, methodical ... that's the INT bit. But when faced with a new problem I often find myself saying "OK, let's look at A, B, and C first." And when I think about it for long enough, I come up with good reasons why I wanted that. But when I said it, I didn't know them. I just had the gut feeling (experience certainly plays a role) that those would be probable places for the problem to be hiding. That's intuition. (And there's no sneering at intuition, my personal stance at epistemology is there's no understanding without both ints.)

So what follows from that?
1. My src will damn well look for a mentor. If everything she needed could be learned from books, she might not. But she needs experience, get a better feel for things, needs to learn to better understand what her intuition tells her, need to distinguish between intuition and mere fear (or other emotions.) She needs to grow as a person.

2. I'll have none of that wizards are naturally arrogant and sorcerors are a lazy bunch stuff. I will always expect that someone who's represented by a 20th lvl wiz or src has gone through enough of their own trials. And I'd expect the src to be intuitive enough to understand the wiz and the wiz intelligent enough to understand the src. And as for jealousy, there's no real justification I'd buy from a 20th lvl char, either ... I've played both and both just rock in their situations.

So, the whole arrogance stuff is, to me, a matter of personality. People tend to go by stereotypes (which I've come to find tiresome, but oh well ...). But I just don't see why every wizard needs to have Raistlin as his role model (sorry, dunno enough FR) even when he's not evil, whereas I can find no trace of arrogance in Par-Salian. Hey, don't let your profession be an excuse for your weaknesses as a person. You're an *bung-hole* as a person, not as a lawyer, nor as a wizard (and no offense meant ;-) )

Certainly, that's not to say there CAN'T be arrogant, good wizards ... esp. in low levels it might be an element of development of the character: It might be moderated by wisdom in higher levels, or, if it grows into a more general outlook on others, make the char slowly shift towards evil.

My take.

[maeglhachel]

Your post has been edited. Please read the following and do not attempt to circumvent forum rules again, consider this a warning.

Have a nice day,
UrghArgh.

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[maeglhachel]

Guess that answers that question.
I'd like to make the point, though, that I wouldn't consider the word I used in my first post overly offensive ... not like what I hear when I listen to 10yr. old kids, today ... nor was it directed at anybody in particular.
But I'll agree that it's prolly a bit hard to make a filter intelligent enough.

[EDM Entori]

Feb 4, 2010 3:55:10 GMT -5 maeglhachel said:

This thread may be dead, but since I stumbled across it, I'm going to add my 2 cents.

To me it's very interesting to see how src and wiz are alike and yet very different. I always understood that wizards have magic in their brains whereas sorcerors have it in their soul, intelligence vs. intuition.

To give a real life example, I can relate to: When solving an IT problem, you certainly have be very analytical, methodical ... that's the INT bit. But when faced with a new problem I often find myself saying "OK, let's look at A, B, and C first." And when I think about it for long enough, I come up with good reasons why I wanted that. But when I said it, I didn't know them. I just had the gut feeling (experience certainly plays a role) that those would be probable places for the problem to be hiding. That's intuition. (And there's no sneering at intuition, my personal stance at epistemology is there's no understanding without both ints.)

So what follows from that?
1. My src will damn well look for a mentor. If everything she needed could be learned from books, she might not. But she needs experience, get a better feel for things, needs to learn to better understand what her intuition tells her, need to distinguish between intuition and mere fear (or other emotions.) She needs to grow as a person.

2. I'll have none of that wizards are naturally arrogant and sorcerors are a lazy bunch stuff. I will always expect that someone who's represented by a 20th lvl wiz or src has gone through enough of their own trials. And I'd expect the src to be intuitive enough to understand the wiz and the wiz intelligent enough to understand the src. And as for jealousy, there's no real justification I'd buy from a 20th lvl char, either ... I've played both and both just rock in their situations.

So, the whole arrogance stuff is, to me, a matter of personality. People tend to go by stereotypes (which I've come to find tiresome, but oh well ...). But I just don't see why every wizard needs to have Raistlin as his role model (sorry, dunno enough FR) even when he's not evil, whereas I can find no trace of arrogance in Par-Salian. Hey, don't let your profession be an excuse for your weaknesses as a person. You're an *bung-hole* as a person, not as a lawyer, nor as a wizard (and no offense meant ;-) )

Certainly, that's not to say there CAN'T be arrogant, good wizards ... esp. in low levels it might be an element of development of the character: It might be moderated by wisdom in higher levels, or, if it grows into a more general outlook on others, make the char slowly shift towards evil.

My take.

Ever meet someone who can't read from a book, yet show him a hammer and how to use it and he'll build you a mansion?

thats what I portray sorcerer's as in my head. Someone who knows the weave through touch and feel, and once -shown- something they can grasp it a whole heck of alot more then someone who gets it from the book.

the weave by definition of magic of faerun -is- a net, a limiting agent that cuts the mortals off from raw magic. So wizards have to study to pry open this net, not everyone can do it, then there are those that feel it and know where the openings are.


Now that could be laziness, or it may take learning physically to learn a spell, I think alot of sorcerer roleplay is underplayed to what it's potenial is.


Does that mean the person whos good with his hands can't learn from a book? or learn to do other things with his magic? not at all, however this being 'at ease' with the most powerful force in existance.. you want to say character building? LOL I think sorcerer's are quite able to have quite the ego.


but an epic level wizard thrives and burns and does everything he may to find knowledge and works for every bit of it, also equally character building.

[maeglhachel]

Feb 15, 2010 8:01:24 GMT -5 EDM Entori said:

...
Someone who knows the weave through touch and feel

Exactly ... and I'm just saying "feel" in this case is just another word for "intuition".

Feb 15, 2010 8:01:24 GMT -5 EDM Entori said:

Now that could be laziness, or it may take learning physically to learn a spell, I think alot of sorcerer roleplay is underplayed to what it's potenial is.

Does that mean the person whos good with his hands can't learn from a book? or learn to do other things with his magic? not at all, however this being 'at ease' with the most powerful force in existance.. you want to say character building? LOL I think sorcerer's are quite able to have quite the ego.

Heh ... quite possibly.
I may be a bit limited in my src interpretations because I've always only ever really RPed one person (other srcs not much on RP servers). But I'm always playing her like the effects she can create through magic are manifestations of her passions, just extensions of her personality. That's why she's learning fire earlier than she might elsewhere, why she'll never have necro focus, why her spell are rather solo-ish even if that doesn't help as much on FRC. It's all just giving another form to her character (and so, subject to change, of course.)

That's why she always gets a bit huffy about people asking her whether she prepared ... she just is, period. And when she learns ... potentially from books, she forges herself.

Feb 15, 2010 8:01:24 GMT -5 EDM Entori said:

but an epic level wizard thrives and burns and does everything he may to find knowledge and works for every bit of it, also equally character building.

I didn't want to dispute that ... I was just saying: An epic wizard is experienced and smart enough to understand other people, too ... and to recognize stereotypes ... even in himself.

[dirtysloth]

I like to think with spellcraft checks a wizard identifies spells based on gestures words and the effects of a spell while sorcerers identify them by the manipulation and changes in the weave along with effects of the spell

when thinking of the weave as a giant web I would imagine it would be a crossing of a number of strands that opens the correct path for the correct magic

while a wizard is given by book instructions on motions, words and components for the spell they must learn to use them to manipulate the weave
sorcerers observe the change in the weave and then must use their knowledge to decide how to manipulate it in that manner
(what is easier me giving you tools, blueprints and wood saying put together a chair for me or giving you a pile of wood and say make a chair that looks like a chair)

they are not lazy in fact it is more difficult for sorcerers to learn to harness their given power than it is for wizards to learn from a book (wizards gain new spell levels one level before sorcerers)

one thing I do not believe is that sorcerers do not go to school
anyone who wants to learn about the weave would be interested in school
while in classrooms the wizards would stand out showing how well they can memorize text in the field the sorcerers will quickly catch up after observing the spell and attempting it themselves many many times

the arrogance would likely come from wizards who spent time in school with sorcerers who where disruptive in classes and would randomly blow things up attempting even simple spells (the sorcerers high charisma would likely make him the popular guy who spent class time talking instead of studying like the intelligent wizard)
while some wizards may be jealous of the natural abilities of a sorcerer they are likely just as much humored by the misfortunes the sorcerer finds himself in when the spell goes awry