Andros
Old School
I only know that I know nothing
Posts: 440
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Post by Andros on Apr 5, 2020 11:12:52 GMT -5
Suggestion: Why not make new enhanced Main hand version of god Icons that come with a heal bonus equal to the Anathomy Manual from Dhedluk (and costs the same) for clerics. In my opinion it would be more immersive than running around with a book mid-combat!
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Apr 5, 2020 11:17:30 GMT -5
Why is a holy symbol any better? You're not casting a spell, and not all healers are divine healers. A book on anatomy is more reasonable if one uses it for reference material, particularly with more mundane healing.
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Post by malclave on Apr 5, 2020 11:47:42 GMT -5
Also, a book in the hands of a non-combatant healer-cleric could be very immersive, even during combat. RP it as a sacred text, for example, maybe even hotkey a couple of phrases.
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Post by Defunct Fiddlesticks on Apr 5, 2020 14:43:34 GMT -5
Also, a book in the hands of a non-combatant healer-cleric could be very immersive, even during combat. RP it as a sacred text, for example, maybe even hotkey a couple of phrases. My own pacifist healer uses his as a journal as well as well as a medical guide. It's full of things he's learned that aren't common knowledge to anyone but him or a few people. It's the basis of his own library as much as a spellbook is to a mage. |
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Post by Animayhem on Apr 5, 2020 15:20:33 GMT -5
Why is a holy symbol any better? You're not casting a spell, and not all healers are divine healers. A book on anatomy is more reasonable if one uses it for reference material, particularly with more mundane healing. It would be nice if a healer who is a cleric have the holy symbol active. Clerics get their powers from the divine and the symbol is a channeling device. Also for clerics it would be nice if the symbol gave a bonus to turning undead. That too is a divine power. When you enter here whatever class you choose, before you can advance you need to take a test and the test acknowledges your class.
I have seen holy symbols work this way in the old NWN.
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Apr 5, 2020 16:27:47 GMT -5
Why is a holy symbol any better? You're not casting a spell, and not all healers are divine healers. A book on anatomy is more reasonable if one uses it for reference material, particularly with more mundane healing. To be fair, the healing kits in the game are as much magical as they are non-magical. There's is literally no way, and I mean ABSOLUTELY NO WAY, to RP using the healing kit as a mundane bandage/healing method when using it inside of active combat. It is an undeniable impossibility that someone is bandaging a wounded, yet still active combatant wearing any sort of armor, even cloth, as he is being swung at and is swinging at an opponent. With that in mind, having a holy symbol in hand that is acting as some sort of divine/magical channel as you use your divine/magical healing kits, makes way more sense than trying to flip through pages, once again, IN COMBAT, to try and find out how/what to do to help you heal this fellow. The book makes great sense for out of combat mundane healing. The holy symbol makes sense for in combat. Also, it looks infinitely cooler and less nerdy. |
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Apr 5, 2020 16:52:46 GMT -5
Why is a holy symbol any better? You're not casting a spell, and not all healers are divine healers. A book on anatomy is more reasonable if one uses it for reference material, particularly with more mundane healing. It would be nice if a healer who is a cleric have the holy symbol active. Clerics get their powers from the divine and the symbol is a channeling device. Also for clerics it would be nice if the symbol gave a bonus to turning undead. That too is a divine power. When you enter here whatever class you choose, before you can advance you need to take a test and the test acknowledges your class. I have seen holy symbols work this way in the old NWN.
You don't have any vague idea how our in-game, already-present holy symbols work, do you? You probably should quit suggesting stuff until you know what's in place. Why is a holy symbol any better? You're not casting a spell, and not all healers are divine healers. A book on anatomy is more reasonable if one uses it for reference material, particularly with more mundane healing. To be fair, the healing kits in the game are as much magical as they are non-magical. There's is literally no way, and I mean ABSOLUTELY NO WAY, to RP using the healing kit as a mundane bandage/healing method when using it inside of active combat. It is an undeniable impossibility that someone is bandaging a wounded, yet still active combatant wearing any sort of armor, even cloth, as he is being swung at and is swinging at an opponent. With that in mind, having a holy symbol in hand that is acting as some sort of divine/magical channel as you use your divine/magical healing kits, makes way more sense than trying to flip through pages, once again, IN COMBAT, to try and find out how/what to do to help you heal this fellow. The book makes great sense for out of combat mundane healing. The holy symbol makes sense for in combat. Also, it looks infinitely cooler and less nerdy. The entire mechanic of healing is pretty much suspension of disbelief, which is required by this being a vaguely MMO-like experience. You don't have a DM sitting at your desk to tailor a fight around you or enforce such rules, so instead you wind up with what we have. My point was that mechanical, skill-based healing is not the same as casting a spell. If a deity wants to enhance their cleric's skills, fine, but I'm not sure why it should be a necessary change, and one that would just be confusing with the present holy symbols. |
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Apr 5, 2020 17:11:00 GMT -5
So, how is it more reasonable to have a book of anatomy which gives +6 healing over a holy symbol that gives +6 healing? What the intent of the healing skill was over how it is used in practice throughout 99.99999% of the game with the exception of Henrik's and Kori's hospital RP shows that its more reasonable for it to be a magical heal. Which makes a holy symbol or some focus other than a book more reasonable.
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Apr 5, 2020 17:21:24 GMT -5
So, how is it more reasonable to have a book of anatomy which gives +6 healing over a holy symbol that gives +6 healing? What the intent of the healing skill was over how it is used in practice throughout 99.99999% of the game with the exception of Henrik's and Kori's hospital RP shows that its more reasonable for it to be a magical heal. Which makes a holy symbol or some focus other than a book more reasonable. My point was more that we already have holy symbols with specific effects, and don't really need to add to them that much. They may look like they have no properties, but they do have their own effects that are present in the game. No need to overload things when it's all present in other incarnations. |
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Post by malclave on Apr 5, 2020 17:35:28 GMT -5
They actually do something besides letting you roleplay that you found someplace to get a holy symbol?
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Andros
Old School
I only know that I know nothing
Posts: 440
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Post by Andros on Apr 5, 2020 17:37:18 GMT -5
So, how is it more reasonable to have a book of anatomy which gives +6 healing over a holy symbol that gives +6 healing? What the intent of the healing skill was over how it is used in practice throughout 99.99999% of the game with the exception of Henrik's and Kori's hospital RP shows that its more reasonable for it to be a magical heal. Which makes a holy symbol or some focus other than a book more reasonable. My point was more that we already have holy symbols with specific effects, and don't really need to add to them that much. They may look like they have no properties, but they do have their own effects that are present in the game. No need to overload things when it's all present in other incarnations. I'm sorry but for who? I have played a cleric of three diferent gods throughout the years and none have holy symbols with any kind of meaningful funcionality. And some don't even have holy symbols at all. In fact using holy symbols in combat means gimping my cleric as he loses access to his shield an gains ...?. My suggestion was an attempt at making them useful in some maner that doesn't break the game or needs balancing since they would be duplicating an already existing feature. |
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Apr 5, 2020 17:44:57 GMT -5
Yes, they do function, or should. They have at least five scripts dedicated to their use. Just because it doesn't have a property listed doesn't mean something doesn't work; you can look at any of the summon-changing items for an example. They have a niche use as they're meant to function against undead/elementals/outsiders as domains dictate, and they don't strictly need other properties.
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Apr 5, 2020 17:50:32 GMT -5
So ... what niche use/function do holy symbols with no properties offer? Don't hold out on us.
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Apr 5, 2020 18:00:20 GMT -5
So ... what niche use/function do holy symbols with no properties offer? Don't hold out on us. It creates an area of effect in which those creatures affected by the bearer's Turn Undead feat have their turn resistance lowered. The amount to reduce it by is scaled from some creator metrics. It affects creatures based on domain, as I said, so there is a debuff to undead, vermin, contructs, elementals, or outsiders, respective to the originator's domains. It lasts a set amount of time and fires on a heartbeat. Edit: This is an incredibly, incredibly powerful effect, which is why I am against giving such holy symbols more power. This is not something that has saves. It may be buggy due to being a heartbeat script, but it is ludicrously strong when it does fire off. |
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Post by malclave on Apr 5, 2020 18:12:53 GMT -5
You mean there's a chance my Sun/ Good domain cleric of Lathander might not have been completely useless against undead? This is the kind of thing which would be nice to learn outside of metagaming.  Now you have me wondering if there's a holy symbol for my current cleric's deity. |
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Apr 5, 2020 18:50:29 GMT -5
And you're saying this effect is active for those symbols that cost 4gp?
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Apr 5, 2020 21:29:09 GMT -5
And you're saying this effect is active for those symbols that cost 4gp? It should be, unless someone changed the item in the past and didn't remove all the associated scripts for whatever reason. |
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Post by Animayhem on Apr 5, 2020 23:40:56 GMT -5
It would be nice if a healer who is a cleric have the holy symbol active. Clerics get their powers from the divine and the symbol is a channeling device. Also for clerics it would be nice if the symbol gave a bonus to turning undead. That too is a divine power. When you enter here whatever class you choose, before you can advance you need to take a test and the test acknowledges your class. I have seen holy symbols work this way in the old NWN.
You don't have any vague idea how our in-game, already-present holy symbols work, do you? You probably should quit suggesting stuff until you know what's in place. To be fair, the healing kits in the game are as much magical as they are non-magical. There's is literally no way, and I mean ABSOLUTELY NO WAY, to RP using the healing kit as a mundane bandage/healing method when using it inside of active combat. It is an undeniable impossibility that someone is bandaging a wounded, yet still active combatant wearing any sort of armor, even cloth, as he is being swung at and is swinging at an opponent. With that in mind, having a holy symbol in hand that is acting as some sort of divine/magical channel as you use your divine/magical healing kits, makes way more sense than trying to flip through pages, once again, IN COMBAT, to try and find out how/what to do to help you heal this fellow. The book makes great sense for out of combat mundane healing. The holy symbol makes sense for in combat. Also, it looks infinitely cooler and less nerdy. The entire mechanic of healing is pretty much suspension of disbelief, which is required by this being a vaguely MMO-like experience. You don't have a DM sitting at your desk to tailor a fight around you or enforce such rules, so instead you wind up with what we have. My point was that mechanical, skill-based healing is not the same as casting a spell. If a deity wants to enhance their cleric's skills, fine, but I'm not sure why it should be a necessary change, and one that would just be confusing with the present holy symbols. Rude much? Simple request to ask what happens when you try and use your symbol? |
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Post by malclave on Apr 6, 2020 0:20:27 GMT -5
If you can't find a holy symbol in your deity's name you can ask a DM for one. Ava and Izzy always shocked people when they pulled out their symbols and the aoe vfx played. I think 19/20 clerics/paladins don't know that equipping a symbol lowers the turn resistance of undead around you. I think I told Malclave's lathanderite cleric that once when Ava did it with her in party years ago in the VR crypts but I guess Malclave has already forgotten xD. Possible, though I might have just missed it... it seems like something I would have remembered. Or it may have been before I found out there were Lathander temples on the server, and I just filed the statement away figuring there would be some text on the item to remind me. I'll probably post on the non-instant thread for my Baervan cleric, since I haven't heard of any gnomish shrines. I should probably look around for my Arvoreen paladin too in case I ever play him. Thanks for the info. |
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Apr 6, 2020 4:36:08 GMT -5
So back to the original suggestion, there's no way to create an item with a holy symbol graphic that gives a +6 healing bonus instead of a silly book?
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Apr 6, 2020 10:22:55 GMT -5
It's certainly doable. I was just reacting against combining the ones we have that way. The OP's suggestion was 'trying to make them useful,' which the holy symbols already are. Making a second setup is fine, but it would be highly advisable to make them quite obviously different somehow.
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Post by malclave on Apr 6, 2020 12:01:35 GMT -5
If a decision is made to go forward on this (whether new holy symbols or changing the existing ones), could they also be made to be equippable in either hand?
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Andros
Old School
I only know that I know nothing
Posts: 440
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Post by Andros on Apr 6, 2020 12:23:32 GMT -5
Let me get this straight, all these years the cheap icons had a secret effect that wasn't listed anywhere so there was no way for players to know about it?
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Post by Warlord on Apr 6, 2020 12:41:48 GMT -5
Let me get this straight, all these years the cheap icons had a secret effect that wasn't listed anywhere so there was no way for players to know about it?
October 14, 2009, by DM RookIt's not been unknown so we're not exactly at 100% unfamiliar with the contents. FRC's old status often has buried content a bit too old that may go against its own sense of accessibility, but historically efforts are always made to provide assurances. |
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Andros
Old School
I only know that I know nothing
Posts: 440
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Post by Andros on Apr 6, 2020 17:15:05 GMT -5
It's not been unknown so we're not exactly at 100% unfamiliar with the contents. FRC's old status often has buried content a bit too old that may go against its own sense of accessibility, but historically efforts are always made to provide assurances. It's been 11 years, did Rook ever revealed what they where supposed to do? is it what Fluffy said? Can an official answer be posted somewhere in server rules or such for new players? This isn't something you can find in game as it relates to an OOC mechanic (my cleric characters would have no reason to question the effectiveness of their Icons even if they don't actually do anything) |
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Post by Animayhem on Apr 9, 2020 9:34:19 GMT -5
Earlier this week, I had my full cleric Naralith hold up her symbol while she cast turning. I did not see any boost or change. She is a priestess of Corellon.
I have the log so if you can tell me what I should look for.
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Post by malclave on Apr 9, 2020 10:30:37 GMT -5
If I understand what was said correctly (which is always in doubt), the effect only occurs if you're up against Undead with Turn Resistance or Outsiders with Spell Resistance if you have the Good or Evil domain.
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Apr 9, 2020 11:00:33 GMT -5
You understood correctly, and one wouldn't see any changes on their own character sheet. Since you also don't see the rolls associated with a turn undead attempt, you won't have any confirmation beyond the visual/audio cue given when a creature enters the area of effect. (or when the item is equipped) Though it isn't restricted to those two domains, as earth, air, water, fire, destruction, and plant domains all affect Turn Undead. And considering that I can literally read what the system is doing, I would hope that verification isn't needed further than my word. I've even logged in and tested it; I got an audio cue at the very least with the undead I was looking at.
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Post by Warlord on Apr 9, 2020 11:14:00 GMT -5
Earlier this week, I had my full cleric Naralith hold up her symbol while she cast turning. I did not see any boost or change. She is a priestess of Corellon. I have the log so if you can tell me what I should look for. What you might be experiencing is an item whose base tag is not appropriately being read by the script. I dont know what the conditions were to acquiring the item. If from a certain elf settlement, I should think it'd work. If from a DM that dropped it and named it Corellons Holy Symbol, they might have just taken what item could be found and renamed it, not knowing the potential from appropriately tagged holy symbols. Personal opinion: Wouldn't really be doing backflips in glee about this. It is more a nice flavor item. Helga at level 21 cleric with the holy symbol out /still/ doesn't care to turn undead, especially against the undead expected for her to battle, so it won't be a game changer. At lower levels it can be gratifying but still not a strategy I bank on. A future solution for the player base and builders alike might be considering adding some generic holy symbols to NPC Arna in the welcome area then players can ask a DM to name change the item. Cheers! |
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Post by malclave on Apr 9, 2020 12:34:49 GMT -5
Is there any way to tell if a character has a correct holy symbol? I don't recall ever seeing an effect play on either Kimbera or Perrin when they would equip their symbols for RP purposes.
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