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Post by Spooks on Oct 27, 2019 22:14:04 GMT -5
Any and all who would like to give input, I’ve a few questions that have weighed heavily on my mind, as I play a character who is running an ‘evil guild’.
Since I assumed control of the guild, something that I never really expected was… the strong aversion several people seem to have toward working/RPing/associating with the guild. So I am genuinely curious as to whether anyone has input/advice/complaints about how we can be involved in the server/server events. What do you expect/want from us? How do you want to interact with us? Do you want us around to just be foils to Team Good? Do you want us involved in server plots? If we are to what extent? What can we change to improve the way it feels for us to play our characters?
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Post by hellscream123 on Oct 27, 2019 23:27:21 GMT -5
What do you want to be?
What do you want others to interact with you, to interact with?
Im not particularly in agreement with asking the proverbial outside what your inner perpose of a guild should be. The major point of a guild to my mind. Is to avt in the service of a communal goal or ideal. I think you might get better responses if you explain what you want internally and externally so the discussion can frame mutual agreement rather than absorbing an unknown (fr the view of the outside) amount of community opinon.
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Post by Always_a_hero on Oct 28, 2019 0:12:28 GMT -5
Although it helps to have a specific goal, I think it would also be needed to take into consideration general subgoals of what one would consider an "evil guild", although it brings the question "what makes a guild evil over good, if not evil over neutral"? When I think of an evil guild (as example) I'd think of a group of individuals who are part to have a hand at something profitable to their very person and nobody else, hence a group finding profit to the selfishness of each members. A wizards willing to learn more about the dark art of necromancy while under the eyes of the law could choose to form a more secretive circle- although evil in a setting where good is priorised almost always needs to be somewhat secretive. Which leads to what kind of evil should the guild emphasise on? Should it enforce the law through the use of more direct an unethical means (Lawful Evil)? Should it focus on creating wealth over the ignorance or abuse of others (Neutral Evil-ish)? Or does it want to spread disorder and mischief over the realm (Chaotic Evil)?
Finally I'd suggest thinking over what opportunity and character-growth would a player find easier to achieve through being part of the guild. Because after figuring out what the guild is about, there also needs to be means to which its existance is going to linger for at least a while. This is generally achieve by target a wide enough range of characteristics on would have to fit the check list. One difficulty you could have would be times of the year where people chooses they want to play more fighter types over wizard types, with again the example of the necromancy guild. Having a DM on your side usually helps too, if you want motivators if not a spotlight on your group from time-to-time, even if the guild is secretive.
Hoping it'll help a few.
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Post by Razgriz on Oct 28, 2019 0:39:50 GMT -5
You guys...
He is not asking what an evil guild is or should be?
I think he means that his guild and its members are usually shunned away, as in they are kept out of most of the server-wide events by other characters and organizations. Thus, he asks what to change or role to expect so that his guild can get involved too.
For that I have no asnwer, because if goodly characters are already "in charge" of resolving a specific plot, it is very unlikely that most of them will be willing to work with others that are (or are percieved as) either shady, dark or not trustworthy for whatever reason.
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Post by Lady Frost on Oct 28, 2019 1:44:02 GMT -5
Zoe and Thraden have discussed this some, IC. I think the path Thraden wants to be on is a good one, and it will work in time (for some) it's just going to take time to change people's minds. The second part is that undead are "hard no's" for some characters no matter what. Zoe can talk around torture, but it's -really- tough to talk around undead. But being social and approachable and willing to work with people is a good start. It'll come with the right moves.
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Post by Spooks on Oct 28, 2019 3:55:46 GMT -5
Without belaboring the point, Razgriz sums up my sentiments well. I want to help my guild remain involved with the other players of the server in a fulfilling and enjoyable way. Currently we are feeling a struggle in that regard, so I am reaching for outside opinions and advice.
I also very much appreciate your statement, Lady Frost.
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perspicacity
Proven Member
Those who do not want to imitate anything, produce nothing. -Dali
Posts: 196
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Post by perspicacity on Oct 28, 2019 5:02:31 GMT -5
Participating in server-wide plots but maybe not pulling in the same direction might be a good way to foster involvement and serve as foil. This need not be direct opposition. Attempting to steer an event toward an end more favorable to your guilds ends could be a 'diagonal' effort. Or re-framing perspective in the arena of public opinion. You may not win 'hearts and minds' but sewing doubts or fertilizing seeds of hypocrisy is always fun.
This may be a little off-topic, but I've always felt that evil versus evil conflicts tend to make evil groups seem more real. Its a bit of a corny and tired trope that good wins because evil can't agree but there is some sense to it, but on PWs where evil is outnumbered there can be a little more unity than seems rational.
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Post by Southpaw on Oct 28, 2019 8:07:45 GMT -5
Without belaboring the point, Razgriz sums up my sentiments well. I want to help my guild remain involved with the other players of the server in a fulfilling and enjoyable way. Currently we are feeling a struggle in that regard, so I am reaching for outside opinions and advice. I also very much appreciate your statement, Lady Frost. I think Perspicacity brings up some good ideas. Trying to push DM events to a conclusion that others don’t want can be a good way to interact. You can also work along with others, but use evil methods and try to influence others towards those methods. A third option is to start your own plots as a guild, and in working together potentially have more strength and impact than a single character would by themself. I’d be careful about making people feel forced into it, but providing a motivation for others to stick their nose in your business can work.
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Post by dwarvenkoff on Oct 28, 2019 10:47:39 GMT -5
what is the solution the issue of "the bad guys arn't allowed to win" because I've been in cases where the evil team did the most work put forward the effort and essentially "won" but had to get retconned/overturned by "DM-ex-machinea" I also feel the knowledge of something like being forced to happen or the knowledge that team evil will never be allowed to win makes the good guys lazy and the evil unmotivated. I'll poor some more feelings later as I am just leaving work now.
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Post by Duchess in Masquerade on Oct 28, 2019 11:10:59 GMT -5
Any and all who would like to give input, I’ve a few questions that have weighed heavily on my mind, as I play a character who is running an ‘evil guild’. Since I assumed control of the guild, something that I never really expected was… the strong aversion several people seem to have toward working/RPing/associating with the guild. So I am genuinely curious as to whether anyone has input/advice/complaints about how we can be involved in the server/server events. What do you expect/want from us? How do you want to interact with us? Do you want us around to just be foils to Team Good? Do you want us involved in server plots? If we are to what extent? What can we change to improve the way it feels for us to play our characters? Just my opinion here but I think maybe you would be better served by taking something like this up in private if you haven't already, maybe with a DM? I think you're giving out way too much information here at the OOC level that could be harmful to your character and the future of the guild you're running by coming out and saying this. In saying all of that I mean no disrespect and I can tell you mean well but maybe the aversion has to do with the fact that you are admitting openly on the public forums that you're evil and running an evil guild. Perhaps this has little to do with IC at this point and it's people simply knowing too much OOC about your guild and characters situation even prior to your post. If you are willing to come out and give this information out on the forums what are you willing to tell people in game at the OOC level? What other details do people know? Since evil tends to take things rather than give, most people aren't knowingly going to put their characters into situations where their characters can be exploited, this is just human nature and not unique to this situation or RP in general. Basically we don't want to get screwed is what it comes down to so convince us through RP that you're not going to do that, earn our trust and then stab us in the back when we A) Don't know what's happening, or B) It's just too stinking late and there isn't a thing we can do about it anyhow. In order for evil to really function it has to go unnoticed since most characters are out looking to put evil down by default. Obviously not all evil characters will try to hide and will totally be more outspoken or noticeable but on average it usually serves evil better that things literally never come to light and this goes for IC as well as OOC. There are of course technicalities to this such as player fairness at the OOC level but most things can still be translated and respected IC'ly. The OOC element of this is a little unfortunate but sadly it's the truth more often than not. When people OOC know you're playing evil or doing things like running an evil guild so often they aren't going to want to participate with you unless they're also playing evil and there is common ground. Telling people OOC that your character is evil usually is never a good idea; a character should never really be known as evil 100% whether IC or OOC but should be judged IC'ly by their actions and motivations as seen by the characters around them. If someone OOC already knows you're evil then that completely kills the level of immersion and the guess work has been taken out of the equation completely. Knowing that a character is evil at the OOC level means there will automatically be some kind of inclination or bias to act a particular way towards that evil character regardless of one's best intent OOC. I understand there are exceptions to this but whenever I see someone admitting they are an associated evil act I cringe a little because so often it doesn't work to their benefit IC. By sharing this information you're literally giving ammo to people OOC to use against you IC despite peoples best efforts not to metagame. I'm also of the opinion that alignments should be kept private in general regardless of what that might be. These things should be on display IC and should be RP'ed so that characters can make their own judgement. Sharing alignment with people OOC can quite literally show your hand to people and ruin any chances of success you have with your character and their story. Evil typically gains it's primary advantage by being unknown both IC and OOC, by making people guess or put things together, being mysterious, and stirring conflict from dark places unknown to most. Players of good alignment benefit from the fact that they typically have the numbers game, laws(in this realm) on their side, and most of society on their side of which most tend to be inclined towards good rather than evil. Why would you as an evil give up one of the only advantages you have by giving out information OOC nobody else has any business knowing? You may as well be giving out your social security number and saying, take muh money! Goodies be like, zomg tithe money! I hope this came across as constructive, I also realize this maybe isn't the feedback you wanted or had hoped for but hopefully something to consider going forward. I hope all of this turns around for you and you are able to get plugged into a story, quest or something along those lines that you and your guild can enjoy.
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Post by Lady Frost on Oct 28, 2019 11:34:56 GMT -5
Any and all who would like to give input, I’ve a few questions that have weighed heavily on my mind, as I play a character who is running an ‘evil guild’. Since I assumed control of the guild, something that I never really expected was… the strong aversion several people seem to have toward working/RPing/associating with the guild. So I am genuinely curious as to whether anyone has input/advice/complaints about how we can be involved in the server/server events. What do you expect/want from us? How do you want to interact with us? Do you want us around to just be foils to Team Good? Do you want us involved in server plots? If we are to what extent? What can we change to improve the way it feels for us to play our characters? Just my opinion here but I think maybe you would be better served by taking something like this up in private if you haven't already, maybe with a DM? I think you're giving out way too much information here at the OOC level that could be harmful to your character and the future of the guild you're running by coming out and saying this. In saying all of that I mean no disrespect and I can tell you mean well but maybe the aversion has to do with the fact that you are admitting openly on the public forums that you're evil and running an evil guild. Perhaps this has little to do with IC at this point and it's people simply knowing too much OOC about your guild and characters situation even prior to your post. If you are willing to come out and give this information out on the forums what are you willing to tell people in game at the OOC level? What other details do people know? Since evil tends to take things rather than give, most people aren't knowingly going to put their characters into situations where their characters can be exploited, this is just human nature and not unique to this situation or RP in general. Basically we don't want to get screwed is what it comes down to so convince us through RP that you're not going to do that, earn our trust and then stab us in the back when we A) Don't know what's happening, or B) It's just too stinking late and there isn't a thing we can do about it anyhow. In order for evil to really function it has to go unnoticed since most characters are out looking to put evil down by default. Obviously not all evil characters will try to hide and will totally be more outspoken or noticeable but on average it usually serves evil better that things literally never come to light and this goes for IC as well as OOC. There are of course technicalities to this such as player fairness at the OOC level but most things can still be translated and respected IC'ly. The OOC element of this is a little unfortunate but sadly it's the truth more often than not. When people OOC know you're playing evil or doing things like running an evil guild so often they aren't going to want to participate with you unless they're also playing evil and there is common ground. Telling people OOC that your character is evil usually is never a good idea; a character should never really be known as evil 100% whether IC or OOC but should be judged IC'ly by their actions and motivations as seen by the characters around them. If someone OOC already knows you're evil then that completely kills the level of immersion and the guess work has been taken out of the equation completely. Knowing that a character is evil at the OOC level means there will automatically be some kind of inclination or bias to act a particular way towards that evil character regardless of one's best intent OOC. I understand there are exceptions to this but whenever I see someone admitting they are an associated evil act I cringe a little because so often it doesn't work to their benefit IC. By sharing this information you're literally giving ammo to people IC to use against you IC despite peoples best efforts not to metagame. I'm also of the opinion that alignments should be kept private in general regardless of what that might be. These things should be on display IC and should be RP'ed so that characters can make their own judgement. Sharing alignment with people OOC can quite literally show your hand to people and ruin any chances of success you have with your character and their story. Evil typically gains it's primary advantage by being unknown both IC and OOC, by making people guess or put things together, being mysterious, and stirring conflict from dark places unknown to most. Players of good alignment benefit from the fact that they typically have the numbers game, laws(in this realm) on their side, and most of society on their side of which most tend to be inclined towards good rather than evil. Why would you as an evil give up one of the only advantages you have by giving out information OOC nobody else has any business knowing? You may as well be giving out your social security number and saying, take muh money! Goodies be like, zomg tithe money! I hope this came across as constructive, I also realize this maybe isn't the feedback you wanted or had hoped for but hopefully something to consider going forward. I hope all of this turns around for you and you are able to get plugged into a story, quest or something along those lines that you and your guild can enjoy. I completely agree with this, just not in this particular scenario. The reason is that most people know Thraden, or of him, or will, and he's not hiding anything IC. He'll tell anyone he's the Cabal guild leader and nearly everyone knows the Cabal is a guild of necromancers of the Vaunted. I don't think he's really given away anything that people don't know, except that the guild is active again and looking to be involved. I think this post is well read by players for the benefit of those with things to hide. Keeping things hidden even OOC, is important if you want to keep things secret IC.
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Post by Lady Frost on Oct 28, 2019 12:00:37 GMT -5
what is the solution the issue of "the bad guys arn't allowed to win" because I've been in cases where the evil team did the most work put forward the effort and essentially "won" but had to get retconned/overturned by "DM-ex-machinea" I also feel the knowledge of something like being forced to happen or the knowledge that team evil will never be allowed to win makes the good guys lazy and the evil unmotivated. I'll poor some more feelings later as I am just leaving work now. I don't think this is as true as most people believe. First, Chaos and Evil are not the status quo of Cormyr and the status quo should always be hard to overturn. If we were in the Underdark Law and Good would have that uphill battle - things there generally slide into Evil and Chaos. In Cormyr, that means Evil and Chaos will always have an uphill battle. However, once Evil and Chaos have successfully overturned the status-quo -THEY- should be hard to overturn as well. Good examples of this are the Stonelands, Banite/undead/monster presences through the wilds. Changing those status quo's can happen, but it takes tons of work. Hilp is also one of these now. Hilp was decimated and the status quo went from Law and Good to Evil and Choas. If someone want to change it, it takes going above and beyond what it takes to maintain it. It takes long-term consistent RP against what it's become. Hilp is also an example of 'Evil' being successful and doing it in a way that people don't directly attribute to "Team Conflict", they blame a rogue red dragon. There's lot of that actually. Team Conflict gets its wins here and there, but many times other players and characters don't see it, don't realize it, or it's over such a large span of time that nothing seems to have actually changed much. Most players of evil (and in general, really) don't have the patience to push RP and plots for long enough to overcome the status-quo. They give one big shove and think that should do it and when it doesn't they throw up their hands, give up, and say evil can't win. You know what? That's the exact same feeling the people that want to restore Hilp probably feel. And I think Hilp has been a good example to Team Resolution that long-term consistent RP towards overturning the status quo is more difficult and tedious that it seems. It's easier to give up and blame the DM's that they aren't being fair.
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Post by dwarvenkoff on Oct 28, 2019 12:18:04 GMT -5
That is sort of the ultimate goal in my mind, is to make an impact for better or for worse. Just the idea that you are making ripples and averting stagnation by doing things across the world, Stagnation is the downfall of RP worlds and groups so visual change or effects can do a lot to keep folks interested (disclaimer: too much change back and forth becomes repetitive and then becomes a normal pattern so avoid that, I guess a better way is just avoid regular patterns but try to keep ebb and flow)
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Post by ID10Tango on Oct 28, 2019 12:22:08 GMT -5
I would say be careful what you wish for. It's worth mentioning that playing evil is extremely difficult, and I concur with the sentiment of both Spooks and Razgriz
Let me give you an example: Team Matthias was fully convinced we were on the right side, and that for once the "good" players had chosen their side incorrectly and that Marister was going to be revealed as the goon. Based on the IC events and RP of players, the Zorastryl Battle came to a screeching halt, and every participant for Team Marister was dealt a heavy blow and stopped in their tracks (they were all dead, RIP Yo)...but that didn't mesh with the story the DMs were trying to achieve. And so God Mode Baron Crownsilver took the field and wiped us out, and raised every player on the field. Also reimbursements of supplies were granted to certain players to cover costs of resources from the event. To the best of my knowledge, Team Matthias got zero reimbursements and sentences from the Tribunal of banishment. It took nearly an entire "set of players" off the board completely and took all the wind out of our sails.
You can't trust the community. Our playstyle and plots are not the kind of game the others want to play. They don't want to fail, because they "shouldnt" fail. They don't want the uphill battle, because they have the Kingdom of Cormyr at their backs, so it should be a breeze. They want God Mode NPCs to come save them, and they want to be reimbursed for any resources used.
I have also recently witnessed on my alt another player we were trying to pick up for a quest and some fun, who literally asked us what Faith's we served and refused to travel with us for not answering seriously. That was the lamest of lame excuses and was seriously a moot point to try and make. Have fun bub, thanks for being a great player...
Those are my feelings on the subject, and I feel these events + the upcoming Character Creation Month is somewhat suspicious...almost as if the DMs wanted to wipe a few epics and force them to start fresh...
-Tango-
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Post by Southpaw on Oct 28, 2019 12:42:37 GMT -5
In agreement with Id10Tango, as a member of Team Marister in the relevant battle, there was a point I was running around as the only living member of the team, looking at an entire team in the party list on the right side of the screen with little death skulls, leaving the battlefield wondering how my character was going to turn THIS around. Next thing I knew, everyone was back on their feet because of the actions of the NPC. I felt two sources of discontent from that. One, if the baron was that powerful, why didn’t he just fight the battle to begin with instead of getting all my guildmates plus other people killed over a task he could do himself. And two, I felt a certain satisfaction in the initial thought that player actions mattered, though in this case it was the other team’s success and mine’s arguable blunders that mattered. To see that overturned took away from me a moment of “player actions matter” which was more important to me than winning.
I feel it is important to share that from the side which would have lost in order to highlight how important it is for player actions to matter, that it left a player feeling some pangs over the fact his side didn’t *lose*, if it meant overturning the results of player actions.
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Post by ID10Tango on Oct 28, 2019 12:44:46 GMT -5
Thank you Southpaw, that's a much better and more eloquent translation of my thoughts.
-Tango-
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Post by kasama on Oct 28, 2019 12:56:11 GMT -5
There will always be Dum Dums who incorrectly use OOC. There will also always be fantastic RPers who goof and forget that this character doesn't know this. Happens. I think in the case of an evil guild it would be best to consider that team good is your foil, not that you are theirs. While King Goody Two-Shoes the first of his name sits the throne, team evil works behind the scenes. Hell, look at Gondor and Rohan. Once King Goody Two-Shoes the first of his name is either corrupted or overthrown then team good has to go underground to try and restore the kingdom to its rightful place a shining beacon of good and in the process totally lose all their Pally abilities because by the way, murder is murder no matter what you define as evil.
As for the civil war? I was on team good for that one and yah, it did seem like there was the heavy hand of fate there. That being said, civil wars tend to leave a bad taste in everybody's mouth for some time so in that sense, the RP at least is on the accurate side.
Now.. for the guy asking about faiths? Well.. if this dude or dudette is a rightous believer and a holy roller then ya... he very well might just ask who you worship just like you (and Kas too because, fun times ahead with Mr. Sticky Pants the Fiathful) would answer Torm Yo!
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Post by Duchess in Masquerade on Oct 28, 2019 12:59:00 GMT -5
Just my opinion here but I think maybe you would be better served by taking something like this up in private if you haven't already, maybe with a DM? I think you're giving out way too much information here at the OOC level that could be harmful to your character and the future of the guild you're running by coming out and saying this. In saying all of that I mean no disrespect and I can tell you mean well but maybe the aversion has to do with the fact that you are admitting openly on the public forums that you're evil and running an evil guild. Perhaps this has little to do with IC at this point and it's people simply knowing too much OOC about your guild and characters situation even prior to your post. If you are willing to come out and give this information out on the forums what are you willing to tell people in game at the OOC level? What other details do people know? Since evil tends to take things rather than give, most people aren't knowingly going to put their characters into situations where their characters can be exploited, this is just human nature and not unique to this situation or RP in general. Basically we don't want to get screwed is what it comes down to so convince us through RP that you're not going to do that, earn our trust and then stab us in the back when we A) Don't know what's happening, or B) It's just too stinking late and there isn't a thing we can do about it anyhow. In order for evil to really function it has to go unnoticed since most characters are out looking to put evil down by default. Obviously not all evil characters will try to hide and will totally be more outspoken or noticeable but on average it usually serves evil better that things literally never come to light and this goes for IC as well as OOC. There are of course technicalities to this such as player fairness at the OOC level but most things can still be translated and respected IC'ly. The OOC element of this is a little unfortunate but sadly it's the truth more often than not. When people OOC know you're playing evil or doing things like running an evil guild so often they aren't going to want to participate with you unless they're also playing evil and there is common ground. Telling people OOC that your character is evil usually is never a good idea; a character should never really be known as evil 100% whether IC or OOC but should be judged IC'ly by their actions and motivations as seen by the characters around them. If someone OOC already knows you're evil then that completely kills the level of immersion and the guess work has been taken out of the equation completely. Knowing that a character is evil at the OOC level means there will automatically be some kind of inclination or bias to act a particular way towards that evil character regardless of one's best intent OOC. I understand there are exceptions to this but whenever I see someone admitting they are an associated evil act I cringe a little because so often it doesn't work to their benefit IC. By sharing this information you're literally giving ammo to people IC to use against you IC despite peoples best efforts not to metagame. I'm also of the opinion that alignments should be kept private in general regardless of what that might be. These things should be on display IC and should be RP'ed so that characters can make their own judgement. Sharing alignment with people OOC can quite literally show your hand to people and ruin any chances of success you have with your character and their story. Evil typically gains it's primary advantage by being unknown both IC and OOC, by making people guess or put things together, being mysterious, and stirring conflict from dark places unknown to most. Players of good alignment benefit from the fact that they typically have the numbers game, laws(in this realm) on their side, and most of society on their side of which most tend to be inclined towards good rather than evil. Why would you as an evil give up one of the only advantages you have by giving out information OOC nobody else has any business knowing? You may as well be giving out your social security number and saying, take muh money! Goodies be like, zomg tithe money! I hope this came across as constructive, I also realize this maybe isn't the feedback you wanted or had hoped for but hopefully something to consider going forward. I hope all of this turns around for you and you are able to get plugged into a story, quest or something along those lines that you and your guild can enjoy. I completely agree with this, just not in this particular scenario. The reason is that most people know Thraden, or of him, or will, and he's not hiding anything IC. He'll tell anyone he's the Cabal guild leader and nearly everyone knows the Cabal is a guild of necromancers of the Vaunted. I don't think he's really given away anything that people don't know, except that the guild is active again and looking to be involved. I think this post is well read by players for the benefit of those with things to hide. Keeping things hidden even OOC, is important if you want to keep things secret IC. What you have described about the Cabal and Thraden in general is pretty much my point prior to the OP being made regardless of the specific situation. I respect your disagreement to the utmost, however, if this guild wasn't so open about things would this OP need to be made in the first place? Obviously news eventually gets around but that's my entire point in terms of why this information simply shouldn't be talked about so casually, passed around, or discussed. I understand that this is about wanting to get involved again but to what detriment has all of this openness had? As you said Thraden is open about it to anyone and not trying to hide anything just as Spooks has been here. I don't mean any offense to Spooks or the guild as a whole but take a moment to consider it's a group of necromancers of which necromancy has been outlawed by the crown. Why is he being so open again? It doesn't make sense to be open as a necromancer in Cormyr. Maybe some people like the spice of being so open and forthcoming but typically playing a necromancer isn't something you want everyone to know about particularly in a place that has outlawed it. If PC's know so much about him and the guild, who else knows about it? Probably the authorities. This doesn't automatically mean it's going to be cracked down on or anything but if Thraden is so open about who he is and the guild, is everyone in the Cabal okay with this level of openness? It sounds like a fast ticket to jail or worse being this forthcoming. I just see the openness in whatever form it might be to the detriment of this guild and RP, particularly in this situation. I'm not trying to say that Thraden should do what I want I'm just saying this is the perspective I'd be coming from if I had a character who was a necromancer and interested in joining the guild. If I started hearing how open things were it would be a deal breaker for me. I wouldn't want that information being passed around not only the OOC level but even more importantly IC since there are potentially more severe consequences from the law itself. Now...unless Thraden is Chaotic Evil, there should be some kind of sense and bias towards law, even as a neutral evil character they typically favor it over chaos especially if there is benefit/consequence to them obeying/disobeying. In the case of necromancy there is benefit to having the law never know what's going on, something a chaotic person probably wouldn't have the consistency or stability to respect but a neutral evil most likely would. Having said that, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my opinion to have the leader of a necromancer guild being so open about who he is, what they are, and all of that. This is just my opinion on the matter but say Thraden changed his tone, and wasn't so forthcoming about everything, eventually in time we'll have new players and those new players/characters won't know who Thraden is which will make them more open to getting involved with the guild and him despite what old regulars such as ourselves might already know. I'm of course stretching a little and thinking longer term but I don't think it should be diminished for the exact example you gave about challenging the status quo. You're absolutely right that usually it takes more than just one big push to really make a significant change and to change something like this and what people know about the Cabal it would take time. Thraden could absolutely make what has been known about or of the Cabal become obsolete information in time if Spooks wants to RP that. I'm not trying to say he has to change anything but I was merely trying to give a perspective. I even find questions such as "Do you want us around to just be foils to Team Good?" does absolutely zero to help this cause because most people aren't going to jump in and say "Yes I volunteer to fail, I'm going to pour my time and energy into establishing a story, leveling a character, getting plugged in, only to see it washed away, end up in prison, or beheaded." After reading my first post here I don't want to come across as overly critical without at least trying to be helpful and offering input that was asked. So in response to Spooks questions, these would be my answers... What do you expect/want from us? That the guild is consistent and respects the environment it's set it. This includes but is not limited to the laws that it is not above and could ruin it, as well as those who would move against it IC. How do you want to interact with us? Just like anyone else but please don't tell me you're a scary evil guild of necromancers. First, it's just immersion breaking, at least to some extent, and second, I want to come to that impression on my own through IC interaction, not because I had information overload at the IC or even OOC level about who you were to the point you were suddenly boring. Add a level of mystique and mystery, necromancers tend to be good at this if played correctly, leverage that. Do you want us around to just be foils to Team Good? Gods no, I want you to be effective and deceptive to the point Team Good doesn't know if you're going to go left or right and usually Team Good OOC'ly wants this as well. Again, being predictable, well known, forthcoming, is just boring. Do you want us involved in server plots? If we are to what extent? Of course! You are in a unique position to stir drama in ways not everyone else is, including other individual evils. Being a guild means you have each other and the force of organization if you choose to use it. Being able to organize your guild gives you invaluable strength to push and pull plots as well as leverage other aspects of the game including things that are political in Cormyr. What can we change to improve the way it feels for us to play our characters? Simply put, don't be so open. When you recruit, do it in private, don't let anyone know your members and make sure they ensure the their identity is kept secret as well to everyone around. People can suspect and assume all they want but it's usually not a problem unless they know. When the level of mystery returns to the guild people will be interested in it again because that's the environment where secrets can be kept. You aren't part of an open and honest paladin order, you are necromancers, there has to be an element of secret society or no RP'er worth their salt will want to get involved. Undead are risky and unless the guild provides at least a decent safe haven for necromancers or potential necromancers none of those people are going to want to put their character on the line. I think as you change this you'll naturally start to enjoy playing in this guild as it was probably intended, there is an element of fun lost by the fact that everyone knows who you are and this goes both ways to you and your adversaries detriment when everything is out on the table.
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Oct 28, 2019 19:00:37 GMT -5
Any and all who would like to give input, I’ve a few questions that have weighed heavily on my mind, as I play a character who is running an ‘evil guild’. Since I assumed control of the guild, something that I never really expected was… the strong aversion several people seem to have toward working/RPing/associating with the guild. So I am genuinely curious as to whether anyone has input/advice/complaints about how we can be involved in the server/server events. What do you expect/want from us? How do you want to interact with us? Do you want us around to just be foils to Team Good? Do you want us involved in server plots? If we are to what extent? What can we change to improve the way it feels for us to play our characters? PM sent Spooks.
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Post by mysticalkas on Oct 28, 2019 19:40:10 GMT -5
Any and all who would like to give input, I’ve a few questions that have weighed heavily on my mind, as I play a character who is running an ‘evil guild’. Since I assumed control of the guild, something that I never really expected was… the strong aversion several people seem to have toward working/RPing/associating with the guild. So I am genuinely curious as to whether anyone has input/advice/complaints about how we can be involved in the server/server events. What do you expect/want from us? How do you want to interact with us? Do you want us around to just be foils to Team Good? Do you want us involved in server plots? If we are to what extent? What can we change to improve the way it feels for us to play our characters? I pretty much just play an elven character. So, my interaction would be very minimal. It would depend on the circumstances surrounding involvement. My characters are pretty much on their own and don't intact with many people as it is. With the guild you belong to, it would take an act of the gods to get me to interact in any way with your character or the guild. I think, as far as interaction went, Delfin speaks to Allyson with no issues. That being said: I expect that you play the best you can and enjoy yourself. I know the essence of the guild life can be off-put at times. I would like to see your guild try and expand your own beliefs and values more perhaps developing a study of your art or other means of furthering your goals. DM interaction can be good and bad, depending on what comes out of it. Server plots are always good, especially for involvement, but I would like to see the power struggle more between good and evil. The issue is power-play, and to what extent will conclusions have on the server. Other than that, I would say just play and enjoy yourself.
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Post by Church of Bane on Oct 28, 2019 20:46:37 GMT -5
Any and all who would like to give input, I’ve a few questions that have weighed heavily on my mind, as I play a character who is running an ‘evil guild’. Since I assumed control of the guild, something that I never really expected was… the strong aversion several people seem to have toward working/RPing/associating with the guild. So I am genuinely curious as to whether anyone has input/advice/complaints about how we can be involved in the server/server events. What do you expect/want from us? How do you want to interact with us? Do you want us around to just be foils to Team Good? Do you want us involved in server plots? If we are to what extent? What can we change to improve the way it feels for us to play our characters? As a long time player of evil I am glad that this post exists. So thank you for ripping the band-aid off of this topic. I will address this one point at a time. 1: What do you expect/want from us? I honestly feel that your guild has to define how it wants to interact with Cormyr, the NPCs, and the environment first. Once you have established that then you will tell other players through your roleplay what your expectations are. Now if you still wish to ask this question that would be better for a DM to handle as they can provide an insight or possible direction, but be open to many possibilities. Overall do not give up, or concede if your version of evil doesn't fit or needs adjusting. 2. How do you want to interact with us? This is similar to the first question. There are those may try to expose evil through excellent roleplay, and there are those who write in "good" on their alignment yet want blood when they perceive evil (and thus becoming the monster they wish to defeat, yet experience no consequences from such actions). You will encounter both. Every player, even other evils, will interact differently. The question should be turned inward and ask "how will we react/how should we react to (type of player)" instead. 3. Do you want us around to just be foils to Team Good? I sure as hell hope not. If you, and your guild, are nothing more than glorified NPCs used to help push someone else's plot/story then it's not fun for you, and a waste of your time. Find a DM who will work with your group with suggestions, provide them possible things of interest, and arrange group outings so you & your guildmates can explore the server and play together. This sense of belonging, and gaining some measure of power (even if it's through the acquisition of gold and experience) gives agency to your choices, and makes you feel like a part of a bigger picture as opposed to a side of a coin or part of a binary function (yes/no, good/evil, etc). 4. Do you want us involved in server plots? If so to what extent? This is also a question for you and your guildmates to answer internally. You will also have to show your work. One can't put up a sign that says "Evil: Open for business" and expect a response (and nor am I saying you are doing that). Putting effort into being evil, or pushing forth your guild's overall agenda, can be reciprocated with openings to DM plots that may tie into overall plots ob the server. However do not expect this will happen all the time. Sometimes you all have to interject to show interest. For instance with the guild I am involved in there have been several plots I have shown interest in, presented it to members of the guild, and sometimes we were a part of it. Sometimes not. Will mistakes happen? YEP! Will there be communication issues? It happens. Make sure you think things through before stepping into the waters, and communicate, communicate, communicate. 5. What can we change to improve the way it feels for us to play our characters? Who says you have to change? Are you broken? Being evil is not about compromising to be a part of the server. It's about roleplaying how you feel represents the character you choose to play. If you want to play, for example, a Rogue/Fighter of Cyric (whom I shall torture, and spit on until I am done with them), and you choose to compromise to "fit in" then you become nothing more than the dreaded "anti-hero". Villains need to feel like villains, not a hero with an "edge" or "will do the dirty work". That's boring, and so 90s. This would also be a good subject to talk over with a DM, but there is one piece of advice I want to bestow to help better answer this question: Don't feel like you have to play "by the book". Not everyone has played pen & paper D&D, and many more many not even be familiar with the timeline up to the creation of the server. Play your own game instead of recreating the events in the DR calendar, but keep in mind the source material as a foundation. Embrace the ability to adapt, and keep an open mind when aligning with others (even if temporarily) through roleplay. Now individually, from what I have chosen to do as a player, I can provide some information. 1: Have a disguise. No not a "disguise" score on your character sheet, but a different look when venture away from the guild. While this may not fit players knowing things OOCly, it should help curb some of this. Players learning of your evil ego should be a fun, and memorable moment -in-game-. This helps achieve that. Another player recently met my evil version and it was a good moment. 2: Use both sides to your advantage. This is another way to be involved in plots within the game. Perhaps you can use a plot you are in to the advantage of your guild? Perhaps there is important information that can be gathered, or to know a weakness of a foe. Roleplay, roleplay, roleplay. 3. Do not be afraid to present your guild as a playable option for other players. When I created the Player Group for the Cormyrean Church of Bane I was a little hesitant. I did not wish to upset my guildmates, and I did not want grief from those who write "good" on their alignment. I want this to be seen by others as a possible option to play, and perhaps that's something that can be done with the upcoming New Character Creation Month. Maybe the player group options can even be listed in the Welcome area in some way. Those are things we should all work on in a separate thread perhaps. 4. Look to align with other evil players as needed. Never go alone, but also don't compromise your guild just to have others to play with. Just because all of the players wrote "evil" on their alignment doesn't not mean they all will agree with each other (or never draw swords against each other). Above all else have fun. Communicate with your guild mates. Set time for everyone to be together, and plan adventures. I hope this helps. All Hail Bane
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Oct 29, 2019 0:25:23 GMT -5
I don't think this is as true as most people believe. First, Chaos and Evil are not the status quo of Cormyr and the status quo should always be hard to overturn. If we were in the Underdark Law and Good would have that uphill battle - things there generally slide into Evil and Chaos. In Cormyr, that means Evil and Chaos will always have an uphill battle. However, once Evil and Chaos have successfully overturned the status-quo -THEY- should be hard to overturn as well. Good examples of this are the Stonelands, Banite/undead/monster presences through the wilds. Changing those status quo's can happen, but it takes tons of work. Hilp is also one of these now. Hilp was decimated and the status quo went from Law and Good to Evil and Choas. If someone want to change it, it takes going above and beyond what it takes to maintain it. It takes long-term consistent RP against what it's become. Hilp is also an example of 'Evil' being successful and doing it in a way that people don't directly attribute to "Team Conflict", they blame a rogue red dragon. There's lot of that actually. Team Conflict gets its wins here and there, but many times other players and characters don't see it, don't realize it, or it's over such a large span of time that nothing seems to have actually changed much. Most players of evil (and in general, really) don't have the patience to push RP and plots for long enough to overcome the status-quo. They give one big shove and think that should do it and when it doesn't they throw up their hands, give up, and say evil can't win. You know what? That's the exact same feeling the people that want to restore Hilp probably feel. And I think Hilp has been a good example to Team Resolution that long-term consistent RP towards overturning the status quo is more difficult and tedious that it seems. It's easier to give up and blame the DM's that they aren't being fair. This is such a complete load of nonsense. Oh, the status quo thing is fine. Cormyr is an LG/LN nation primarily. Hilp in particular wasn't done through any particular work on the part of 'Evil,' however, nor was it granted a fair chance on the other side of the see-saw. The events leading up to and culminating in the change were set in stone and decided well before the plot ever began. I can even quote the post where you first brought up the idea in OOC fashion, two years prior to the events occurring: This idea comes from a few different directions. First, Hilp would be a welcome addition for two reasons; 1) If we want to go east towards Wheloon, the road goes through Hilp. 2) The city isn't a small village, it's a decent size trading town and including it makes sense. Second, nearly all the campaigns end in victory. Players expect to win. If things are going poorly they know the DM will turn things down, raise scrolls will be found, and all will be better. I think a battle that doesn't go as expected would be refreshing and a good humbling experience for PC's. Third, nearly everyone I mention this idea to likes it. Many people say they'd enjoy an "urban" dungeon. That bring me to the idea. I think Hilp should be destroyed. Whether it's through the Sembian war, or the Bonemaster plot or some other means, I think it should be destroyed and turned into a ruin to adventure in. Turning Hilp into a real, working town doesn't make a lot of sense; it's too close between Immersea and Suzail. However, it's large enough to make a decent size area to adventure in and it then could be fully portrayed without having to be another working town. I am sick and tired of you bringing that up as some 'big win' for evil folks, when it was completely manufactured and orchestrated without any other chance. The most fun part is, the blatant railroading of that plot brought up so many negative reprisals and feelings that the DM involved never bothered to work on any of the follow-up. Which is what would have made it more a force of alignments going after each other. Instead, it has languished more because no DMs want to take on the task of dealing with the fallout than no players wanting to do work. There were threads and threads of such that never got replies. I can start quoting those too, if you want. Quit acting like you're some high-and-mighty harbinger of change; you're not. You're a mediocre builder with delusions of grandeur that got your way by virtue of pandering.
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Post by Lady Frost on Oct 29, 2019 1:34:44 GMT -5
I don't think this is as true as most people believe. First, Chaos and Evil are not the status quo of Cormyr and the status quo should always be hard to overturn. If we were in the Underdark Law and Good would have that uphill battle - things there generally slide into Evil and Chaos. In Cormyr, that means Evil and Chaos will always have an uphill battle. However, once Evil and Chaos have successfully overturned the status-quo -THEY- should be hard to overturn as well. Good examples of this are the Stonelands, Banite/undead/monster presences through the wilds. Changing those status quo's can happen, but it takes tons of work. Hilp is also one of these now. Hilp was decimated and the status quo went from Law and Good to Evil and Choas. If someone want to change it, it takes going above and beyond what it takes to maintain it. It takes long-term consistent RP against what it's become. Hilp is also an example of 'Evil' being successful and doing it in a way that people don't directly attribute to "Team Conflict", they blame a rogue red dragon. There's lot of that actually. Team Conflict gets its wins here and there, but many times other players and characters don't see it, don't realize it, or it's over such a large span of time that nothing seems to have actually changed much. Most players of evil (and in general, really) don't have the patience to push RP and plots for long enough to overcome the status-quo. They give one big shove and think that should do it and when it doesn't they throw up their hands, give up, and say evil can't win. You know what? That's the exact same feeling the people that want to restore Hilp probably feel. And I think Hilp has been a good example to Team Resolution that long-term consistent RP towards overturning the status quo is more difficult and tedious that it seems. It's easier to give up and blame the DM's that they aren't being fair. This is such a complete load of nonsense. Oh, the status quo thing is fine. Cormyr is an LG/LN nation primarily. Hilp in particular wasn't done through any particular work on the part of 'Evil,' however, nor was it granted a fair chance on the other side of the see-saw. The events leading up to and culminating in the change were set in stone and decided well before the plot ever began. I can even quote the post where you first brought up the idea in OOC fashion, two years prior to the events occurring: This idea comes from a few different directions. First, Hilp would be a welcome addition for two reasons; 1) If we want to go east towards Wheloon, the road goes through Hilp. 2) The city isn't a small village, it's a decent size trading town and including it makes sense. Second, nearly all the campaigns end in victory. Players expect to win. If things are going poorly they know the DM will turn things down, raise scrolls will be found, and all will be better. I think a battle that doesn't go as expected would be refreshing and a good humbling experience for PC's. Third, nearly everyone I mention this idea to likes it. Many people say they'd enjoy an "urban" dungeon. That bring me to the idea. I think Hilp should be destroyed. Whether it's through the Sembian war, or the Bonemaster plot or some other means, I think it should be destroyed and turned into a ruin to adventure in. Turning Hilp into a real, working town doesn't make a lot of sense; it's too close between Immersea and Suzail. However, it's large enough to make a decent size area to adventure in and it then could be fully portrayed without having to be another working town. I am sick and tired of you bringing that up as some 'big win' for evil folks, when it was completely manufactured and orchestrated without any other chance. The most fun part is, the blatant railroading of that plot brought up so many negative reprisals and feelings that the DM involved never bothered to work on any of the follow-up. Which is what would have made it more a force of alignments going after each other. Instead, it has languished more because no DMs want to take on the task of dealing with the fallout than no players wanting to do work. There were threads and threads of such that never got replies. I can start quoting those too, if you want. Quit acting like you're some high-and-mighty harbinger of change; you're not. You're a mediocre builder with delusions of grandeur that got your way by virtue of pandering. I'm only going to respond to say I've read your rant, and I'm sorry you feel that way. That, however, was misleading and unnecessarily rude. PM sent.
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Post by shivers on Oct 29, 2019 6:36:50 GMT -5
what new guild?
i managed to sneak on a few times this weekend. how can a too. connect with you in game?
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Post by shivers on Oct 29, 2019 6:53:50 GMT -5
idiotango & southpaw
lets not forget that team mathias was prepared for the battle. we had maps and backup plans and escape routes all planned out.
we must have walked the battlefield 10 times in character. every nook and cranny was scrutinized. if you recall - we even did a mock up.
i missed the battle due to RL - but i heard what happened.
as i understand it - team marrister didnt have that much work put into it.
it is what it is - this is an interesting thread.
i just want to remind people that Chaotic Evil does not mean Chaotic “stupid”. finding an evil guild to join is not that easy - finding them is like trying to find real life unicorns. (side note - the new show unicorn is hilarious. check it out)
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Post by Spooks on Oct 29, 2019 9:00:38 GMT -5
My thanks for the many replies to this topic. I hope I can at least touch upon the heart of each of your replies, with this response. Please also note that I -do- appreciate your comments. I may say some things that can be taken as dismissive or negative, please try to give me the benefit of the doubt. I’m not the best at conveying tone via text, and as such I may come across as somewhat unpleasant. I hope you read this with an overlayed tone of passionate concern.
To those who bring up the point of “Do evil things.” The examples people gave were along the lines of political change, pushing ‘diagonally’ on server plots, or initiating things which the player base can engage with seperate from server events: This is generally what myself, and my guildmates would like to do. We want to push our history, become more involved, make contacts, RP with other players, and generally have fun with the themes and tools that being in our guild allows us. This unfortunately is not meeting with enjoyable results. We understand that being ‘evil’ is harder than being good given the IC status-quo, and should expect that there will always be a portion of players who will refuse to work with us, simply for religious or moral objections. With -no- malice toward them, I look toward the players of traditional elven characters. Those who worship ‘natural’ order and anti-undead faiths like Lathander, I can understand the reflexive aversion. I suppose my issue is that there are far more people who take this position than I’d have expected.
In response to the Marister/Matthias West of Greatgaunt Battle: There was a point brought up by ID10Tango where Team Matthias thought that Marister was the ‘wrong’ side to choose. Most everyone felt that Matthias was a good guy. We -all- were played for fools and had the rug pulled out from beneath us with his revelation. Were there players who may have known Matthias’ true nature? Probably. Did most of us think he was just a good guy doing the best he could? Yep. Did this mean that ‘Team Matthias’ deserved to win? No. Why? Because if Team Matthias had won, then the server would be in post-apoc mode right now. The battles conclusion wasn’t which team won. Team Matthias got -steam-rolled- by that super NPC. I can’t speak for whether that was the right way to get that to happen. Ideally the best way would have been to have team Marister beat Team Matthias one their own merits. But that’s not what happened. But I hold no ill-will that Team Matthias ‘lost’. We lost the moment we chose Matthias to side with, we just didn’t know it yet. Our true loss was having it revealed that we backed the wrong horse. That being said, had Team Matthias ‘won’ that fight, then the server would be a -mad house- right now. Team Marister winning, IMO is the only way to have had the server maintain a semi-neutral space for new players and others to go about their lives without Matthias’s Hounds hunting us down every day. This could -not- have been a Team Matthias win, given who Matthias really was.
A BIG point I see being brought up is ‘Why are you playing Thraden so ‘Out of the coffin’?” To this I have two things to say. Thraden has been, for better or worse, outwardly practicing as a Velsharran, for years. Since the days of Phelzaron, when Thraden first converted. As such I had two options.
A. Try and act ‘good’ or ‘neutral’ or at least some flavor of socially acceptable. B. Be public about his faith/”””Being Evil””””/being with the Cabal.
The problem with Option A is the -inevitable- call outs from old players. I’ve -tried- to play Thraden as low-key. Where he simply tries to avoid the topic of his faith, of his affiliation, of things that will cost his friendships/companions/people to socialize with. I have -tried-. But I have met with -consistent- callouts over the years. Thraden would stand in town selling weapons or trying to get a group together to adventure, and inevitably someone who knows that Thraden is a Velsharran due to times past, outs him. They will out him as Velsharran, or a member of the cabal. It’s happened at least 3 times. This repetitive result left me with the realization that at the end of the day, if I wanted to play Thraden, I needed to accept that his faith and organization -can’t- be private. People will out Thraden, and for him to try and work under the hope that it won’t happen would lead to -LOTS- of ruined plans and the loss of -lots- of trust from people whom he kept his faith hidden from. So the only -rational- option he felt he had, was to be open about his faith, and organization. I -understand- that this means that some people will immediately refuse to associate with him as a ‘friend’ or as someone they trust. But given how often he was being outed by people, this was a consequence he was facing -regardless-.
So Thraden is a publically practicing Velsharran. NOT to be confused with publically practicing necromancer. Thraden has never said that he summons/creates/raises undead. He publicly speaking toward the benefits that necromancy can bring to society, though he will deny that he performs necromancy. He advocates for the laws to change, though does not advocate for the law to be broken. He is a public Velsharran Priest, NOT a public Necromancer. There is a difference.
The BIG benefit that Thraden sees to this is that future/lowbie evils now have someone they -know- they can approach. He is the guy they can go to to get involved in ‘evil’ plot. When you see the Velsharran priest getting into a debate on the ethical usage of skeletons to do dangerous jobs so that living people don’t suffer, the lowbie will often later approach me in private to discuss things. It doesn’t always pan out that they join the Cabal, but it’s been met with decent results. It’s one of the most consistent sources of quality RP among the player base that I’ve seen in recent years.
This does NOT mean that everything the Cabal does is public knowledge. Our members are given their privacy, and they all have their own goals and plans as individuals. Thraden is the person people can speak to publicly, but that doesn’t mean that he will tell people -everything-. He has a guild of people whom he needs to help protect. People who would be social pariahs if the general public knew that they were necromancers/Velsharran. So just because he’s public about a LOT of things, doesn’t mean that he’s public about it all.
I do not want to come across as a whiner. As someone who is pouting after not getting his way. But at the end of the day, I’m playing a game with a community who have given me some of the most -cherished- Roleplaying experiences of my life. I want to enjoy the time I spend here, and I have the tools to interact with said community, using a Necromancer guild. I understand that doing this will be met with challenges, and not all of them will be ones where I walk away happy with the result. ‘Bad Guys’ lose to good guys, as that’s the trope that Cormyr depends on to keep the lore straight. I don’t deserve to be upset, if I try to overthrow the crown and then fail. People will be -rightfully- oppositional to that, and I deserve the consequences for attempting something like that. But when there is a common threat to the realm, being shoved away, excluded, ignored, insulted, berated, and generally disrespected that kills motivation to remain involved.
If an entire spectrum of players are being excluded, simply because they are ‘known’ to be ‘evil’ then that discourages people from playing ‘evil’ characters. If I can -only- play hidden evil, then that gets -really- stale, and ONLY works until I am inevitably revealed. Once people know you are evil, then the character can only expect to be excluded from server plots in the future. Are we then restricted to our own personally made plots among our own group of outcasts, or what DM’s make specifically for us?
I’m not asking for people to trust us, and let us do super evil stuff. We’re trying to engage with the server in ways that allow for some plausible reasons to at least interact with us. Give people chances to see what we are doing to spoil our plans, or see that we have common goals at the moment and thus ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’ on some stuff. But that’s NOT how it’s working right now. The result of current efforts are met with results that feel -bad-. They don’t feel fun, they don’t feel engaging. They feel like people don’t want to RP with us. And that feels crappy to experience.
So I am asking. What needs to change? Cause right now, being an ‘evil’ PC means playing one specific type of way, or being treated like a leper.
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Post by Razgriz on Oct 29, 2019 9:44:07 GMT -5
Years ago, I recall Pedantry's Malarite High Priestess Mirrir organise events where some characters would participate in fights against monsters to prove they were the best hunters. Granted, not all characters took part or approved those, but many did attend.
Perhaps you guys could do something similar, but with magic and necormancy. Like a tourney for spell casters or a magic fair/auction that could have some Velsharan and Vaunted elements too.
You could also speak with the Alizarin masters about using the academy as a proxy to reach out to potential new members. Maybe ask them if you could have a course about necromancy and undeath. Teach characters about necomancy magic, undead creations, the path of the Palaemaster. Perhaps with events like those your guild would have means to be more involved later.
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Post by DM Hawk on Oct 29, 2019 10:17:24 GMT -5
A few things need to be said, which are overdue. First, let's not presume to speak for DM's. I see this too often and, intentionally or not, the writer frequently misrepresents things. DM's are individuals with different styles and convey different themes in their events. A big part of our job is to portray the setting of the server in game but it isn't to be biased towards or against good, evil, neutral, lawful, or chaotic player characters. We do however expect players to immerse in character in the world and navigate the setting appropriately as we drive the setting to respond to them appropriately. Expectations need to be reasonable. Let me give you an example: Team Matthias was fully convinced we were on the right side, and that for once the "good" players had chosen their side incorrectly and that Marister was going to be revealed as the goon. Based on the IC events and RP of players, the Zorastryl Battle came to a screeching halt, and every participant for Team Marister was dealt a heavy blow and stopped in their tracks (they were all dead, RIP Yo)...but that didn't mesh with the story the DMs were trying to achieve. And so God Mode Baron Crownsilver took the field and wiped us out, and raised every player on the field. Also reimbursements of supplies were granted to certain players to cover costs of resources from the event. To the best of my knowledge, Team Matthias got zero reimbursements and sentences from the Tribunal of banishment. It took nearly an entire "set of players" off the board completely and took all the wind out of our sails. In agreement with Id10Tango, as a member of Team Marister in the relevant battle, there was a point I was running around as the only living member of the team, looking at an entire team in the party list on the right side of the screen with little death skulls, leaving the battlefield wondering how my character was going to turn THIS around. Next thing I knew, everyone was back on their feet because of the actions of the NPC. I felt two sources of discontent from that. One, if the baron was that powerful, why didn’t he just fight the battle to begin with instead of getting all my guildmates plus other people killed over a task he could do himself. And two, I felt a certain satisfaction in the initial thought that player actions mattered, though in this case it was the other team’s success and mine’s arguable blunders that mattered. To see that overturned took away from me a moment of “player actions matter” which was more important to me than winning. I feel it is important to share that from the side which would have lost in order to highlight how important it is for player actions to matter, that it left a player feeling some pangs over the fact his side didn’t *lose*, if it meant overturning the results of player actions. That Matthias is a silver tongued devil isn't he? Events of that scale and complexity are quite difficult to manage, but we're ambitious and we went for it. We had a lengthy thread to discuss this already, but what was Super Baron all about? DM Clients suffer EE crashes too. Logging back in to a big battle zone having a multitude of player characters and NPC's in action takes a very long time. I eventually returned to a screen full of dead characters and my TPK DM of the Month award was assured . Players of dead characters were complaining on both sides, whether it was about Matthias Team kill zones, wild magic, lag, buffs fading, or Super Baron. Super Baron? What? So I asked DM Unknown about it...and he wasn't there. Unkle had crashed too leaving his Super Baron NPC on auto pilot for most of the thrashing of Team Matthias while it was out of control. Taking in the big picture and all the complaints, we felt it was most fair to allow both teams to regroup and go at it again. It wasn't about invalidating anyone's actions. After misleading, using, betraying, and abandoning his team Matthias proved to be the antagonist of everyone. To team Matthias the paroles were too harsh, to team good they were too soft. In the end they are what the are, an opportunity for Team Matthias to redeem themselves in the eyes of the law and get their revenge on the antagonist of the story - if they want to. Some have taken advantage of it, others haven't. It should also be mentioned in light of the complaint of reimbursed supplies above that each member of Team Matthias was given a customized DM reward for their service. Oops, now I've pissed off some other people... Those are my feelings on the subject, and I feel these events + the upcoming Character Creation Month is somewhat suspicious...almost as if the DMs wanted to wipe a few epics and force them to start fresh... Really? Disappointing to hear. I'm not putting all the time I have into these events to wipe out your characters. If I was it would probably be more fun. At least for me New Character Creation Month is about encouraging everyone to try something new. Fresh is good. It's about breaking the ice and mingling with other players you don't normally play with and being more inviting as a community to new players just starting out. Shaking things up is good. Sometimes there's too much sediment. Fluffy the Mad Lady Frost RE Hilp. The truth is in the middle. There were Out of Character discussions taking place on the build team at the time to encourage the outcome of Hilp that should not have happened and won't again. The ruined areas were built before the final event took place and were offered to the DM. However, for most involved it was not about railroading the event but the allure and excitement of participating in a big change to the setting. The evil team played competitively to win and invested a lot of time in game to this. It's fair to say that their in game effort and time matched that of good aligned characters. However some had knowledge and confidence from the build team discussions that they shouldn't have had during play. I also saw some pretty ugly and rude comments coming from them in party that night that were disappointing to see. The DM involved did her best to validate the roleplay effort she saw on both sides and had the best vantage point. The prospect of having a build change introduced to support one's story is an exciting prospect and undoubtedly provided some temptation, but the DM is a principled person and fairness was important. The result was both sides had some wins and losses. Neither side got a total victory...but there was heartfelt backlash from some heavily invested players. The backlash from the event was hurtful to the DM. We know we can't make everyone happy in a big event, but that doesn't stop us from pounding our head against the wall and trying sometimes. The backlash was hurtful and the DM took a break. The subsequent roleplay of the good faction in the aftermath went on without DM support. I participated in some of it as a player, the clean up and burial of bodies, roleplaying a play through of the new dungeon that had been introduced. It was late coming, but the Hilp Memorial was put in to validate that effort, honor the dead, and portray the kingdom's loss and mourning for what happened. Perhaps too little, too late but it recognizes the roleplay of those who defended Hilp and dealt with the aftermath following. You can't trust the community. This is a sad thing to see in writing. To this I'll simply encourage every player on FRC to be a good sport, win or lose. It's about the story. We're playing to partake in a story together. Being competitive and raising the stakes is great fun - if you're willing to enjoy the game, win or lose. Be willing to take risks with people. Give your fellow player the benefit of the doubt. And don't take advantage of good faith placed in you by others. Be a good sport when you happen to win too. Don't rub the other players faces in it. Remember Junior Woodchuck Soccer League when we'd say, "Good game"? Let's be better than this bickering and mistrust.
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Post by Southpaw on Oct 29, 2019 10:37:30 GMT -5
To DM Hawk:
Thank you for the clarification on Baron Crownsilver. DM's having crashed, themselves, offers an alternative explanation on what happened. I should have had more faith in the DM's intentions. For that, I apologize.
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Post by mandene on Oct 29, 2019 11:34:58 GMT -5
You can't trust the community. This is a sad thing to see in writing. To this I'll simply encourage every player on FRC to be a good sport, win or lose. It's about the story. We're playing to partake in a story together. Being competitive and raising the stakes is great fun - if you're willing to enjoy the game, win or lose. Be willing to take risks with people. Give your fellow player the benefit of the doubt. And don't take advantage of good faith placed in you by others. Be a good sport when you happen to win too. Don't rub the other players faces in it. Remember Junior Woodchuck Soccer League when we'd say, "Good game"? Let's be better than this bickering and mistrust.
In a perfect gaming world, we would be able to discuss everything OOC, and never use that informationin IC.
In fact, if you know OOC someone's character's alignment, and act IC based on that - it's a big No No. It's a textbook example of metagaming, and metagaming is to be avoided at all cost.
Now, giving the players benefit of the doubt, it can be forgotten where you have that information from. I would suggest playing on the cautious side and not use IC what you know OOC, unless it's been affirmed by someone else's character IG. Then you can RP that you learned it from them. It's at least how I'm trying to do it. Although using OOC information to your own advantage IC, isn't always a malignant act, it's at best a careless and not a thoughtful one. We would all be better of, if we actually act thoughtfully about others' fun and RP - so that we cal all enjoy the game together, not just try to "win". If we all act in a thoughtful manner - then there's no need for distrust.
BuuuUuuut. There's also the element of surprise. If players know the secrets of other characters, then the surprise of learning those secrets IG is not that big. Yes, you can still RP being surprised, but the effect is lost. After all, we play our characters to tell stories to each other, and build them up together with the DMs for our mutual benefit (I hope?, right? right? RIGHT?)
So, keeping secrets from the playerbase both IC and OOC is still valid, but it isn't necessarily because the other players are untrustworthy :/
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