alignment shifts

[Deleted]

Not a question just a statement that I consider it extremely unfair to have my alignment shifted due to something done by someone else in the party before there is even the slightest chance to stop them. The specifics of the situation notwithstanding, it is wrong to penalize a group because of the actions of an individual.

[FlyingMidget]

While I don't disagree with you it's a recent change and may be subject to follow up adjustments (only time will tell), I feel it's important to note the following down.

If you feel that you were in such a situation and believe your character responded correctly to such and did not warrant the alignment hit caused by another character and your own character tried to correct their behavior IC, likely requesting they undo whatever it was they did (place the object back by where ever they stole it from for example in full view of the party on the ground), reprimanded them for their behavior or choose to take the moral high ground and refused to travel with a group that did such further or whatever else you believe is the appropriate IC response, I highly suggest screenshoting the scene, chat log, the alignment hit around such and forward such onto any of the active DM team so that they can review the situation.

FM.

[malclave]

I'm kind of torn on that. On the one hand, yes, I agree that the group should not be penalized. But on the other, the alignment point range is pretty broad, and it would take quite a few instances like that to actually change alignment (if they're just 1 point at a time). For that to happen, a character would have to travel fairly often with people he should be morally opposed to, and it's not necessarily out of line for alignment to gradually change to reflect that.

From a game balance standpoint, there's also the matter that the whole team is getting the gp and xp rewards associated with the choice. What I'm kind of concerned with is that the 'good' options seem to offer better rewards (at least from what I've seen) than the 'neutral' and 'evil' options. If that's true generally, I suspect that the effect of the alignment changes will be a gradual shift towards good by neutral and evil characters, and not necessarily with a corresponding shift in RP.

[EDM Entori]

take care who you travel with.

that said, minor shifts, can be counteracted.

but if people loot several objects, cast questionable spells, or anything other that would demand an alignment shift and you were party to that. and continue to be such your alignment will shift.

one point towards chaos..doesn't really mean much, same with evil. or good. ultimately the "trend" should be your alignment.

[tingly]

Automated alignment shifts that affect a whole party sounds like a powerful tool for griefing. If there isn't a willingness to do away with it or at least revert those shifts, that makes a griefing-friendly environment. Just something to think about.

If it's not about something scripted, I guess that depends. Paladins, for instance, are supposed to be super-responsible to the point where they could potentially be held accountable for what's done adjacent to them.

[hellscream123]

The actions of a group you support and serve besides are a reflection of you. If a party member decides to take the disagreeable action. Speak up against the action taken. Role play it out. Alignment is a constantly shifting reflection of actions upon the soul. It's not just a paint coat.


And yeah, everyone -should- vet which party members they travel with. That's just smart travel sense when we're risking our lives with one another. Just because it is a "game" doesn't mean your character shouldn't react fairly and accordingly to everything they can.


Final personal note. There are a LOT of different alignment shifters spread across the range and across the sever. Every flavor is touched.

If someone is "greifing" you with conversation actions. Confront the character? Or as with all instances. Log and inform. As has always been the way. It simply sounds more prelevent now because a large number of us whom do. Remind everyone else to do the same. Cuz it works.

[abby]

You could maybe think of the shift as a reputation you get when doing certain things. By speaking out against whatever got you the alignment shift, maybe DMs would refund it since you’ve made a public show of being against that sort of thing... well unless you’re just pretending.

[malclave]

Feb 9, 2019 23:39:20 GMT -5 hellscream123 said:

Final personal note. There are a LOT of different alignment shifters spread across the range and across the sever. Every flavor is touched.

Now you have me wondering if there are quests that will shift you towards Neutral...

IF Alignment > 50 THEN Alignment = Alignment - 1
ELSEIF Alignment < 50 THEN Alignment = Alignment + 1
ENDIF



And I do hope the rewards are balanced for those times when xp and gp accompany the shift.

[sarkill]

Can't say I'm a big fan of it either. Just seems like another thing to have to manage as any character that needs to stay neutral in an alignment axis. Also, alignment is so subjective, especially on the law-chaos aspect, so who can really say what is lawful vs not lawful when you take into account personal codes, and codes for religions, or monk orders, etc.

I guess it helps to force Paladins to be super paladin-y, which is good, I think? But for anyone that's not alignment restricted, its just another thing to ignore, or potentially exploit if you wanted to do some funky alignment shifting class combos.

Also, since you can't vote on these dialogue choices, and I assume there's nothing that warns you of an alignment change (especially since so many things that seem like they would change alignment currently don't), there's nothing to stop a player from just clicking on a choice without being any the wiser and changing everyone's alignment, even if by a little. The only real way to prevent this is to either meta-game that you know it's coming up and mention before hand, or have to contact a DM and go through whatever to show that you didn't actually do the thing and would like your points back. It's not like table-top were you can "take 5" and discuss as a group and come to a consensus, because you cant really say, wait DM, I stop so-and-so from doing xyz, let's talk it over first, because the DM is a computer that you cant talk to.

Certainly it's not the worse addition, but I feel like it could be implemented better, or even that alignment shifts should be left under the better care and judgement of actual 1-on-1 DM-Player interaction instead of automated alignment shifts.

[malclave]

To shift away from Neutral you would need a net 20 points in one direction or another. To shift towards Neutral is a little easier... you only need 16 points.

I don't know how many points these scripts modify alignment by, but I'm guessing it's around 1 - 5, tending towards the lower numbers. Alignment changes won't be immediate, and characters can take steps to stop or reverse the trend.

If anything, I kind of expect this to create more work for the DMs, as they get asked to review or monitor characters for alignment points outside of the scripts. I know I've done that in the past, sometimes for points I didn't necessarily want but felt I deserved.

[hellscream123]

Commonly they are one point at most from memory. On the note of advocacy i am still privy to my own speech and opinons. I am not an echo chamber im a voice, volunteering to listen.

I understand well the worry of loosing the alignment of your character by anothers actions. But is not the struggle or morality in the face of a land of godly beings deciding the lines (IC gods) a rich story experience and trial?

Implementation of alignment flux means that actions have more noticeable gravity upon all characters. Not just those whom elect to take up moral burdens.

If you don't want a morality struggle: play nuetral and act so? It takes a fair amount of build up to net a full alignment shift.

[Southpaw]

I got an alignment bump last night because the party I was part of ran through a short dungeon with me in party but waiting to do the next adventure, and my character was therefore on the map west of Greatgaunt. My character wasn’t even present. Not that that’s an everyday occurrence, but I think it goes to show how far issues with this could, in fact, go. My alignment moved in a direction I’d like, but I’d be annoyed if someone moved me the other way.

Also, if a player miscliscks for any reason on a dialogue menu, here’s an alignment bump for you.

[hellscream123]

Feb 10, 2019 7:33:47 GMT -5 Southpaw said:

I got an alignment bump last night because the party I was part of ran through a short dungeon with me in party but waiting to do the next adventure, and my character was therefore on the map west of Greatgaunt. My character wasn’t even present. Not that that’s an everyday occurrence, but I think it goes to show how far issues with this could, in fact, go. My alignment moved in a direction I’d like, but I’d be annoyed if someone moved me the other way.

Also, if a player miscliscks for any reason on a dialogue menu, here’s an alignment bump for you.

Party etiquette will require some rough getting used to if the system stays.

But there's no "clean" means of party effect vs quest effect. If you're partied over large distances with quest finishers happening without your input. That's an easy log to have it reversed if you take issue as a player.

Missclicks are the same, like selling the wrong item or hitting a friend.

Those are artefacts of the game itself that we deal with cleanly. more than issues with a flexible morality system.

The positive effects in my eyes are increased weight of decisions and complex character dramas. Formation of rivalry through effect rather than just pure idealology.

[Andros]

I like that we can't simply ignore quest items and rewards now, so party members that care (like paladins and monks) have a reason to speak up about these things and maybe try to insist on handling such items or speaking to NPCs to ensure the right thing is done.

I also think this thread is ridiculously exaggerated, it's just 1 or 2 points at a time Jesus Christ.

What I would like to see is the rewards being equalized along all alingments so there's no meta motivation to pick one alignment or another and the decision is 100% RP based.

[Deleted]

Also not a fan. Will create alot of ooc tells as ppl ask the person turning in the quest what they will choose. Ooc problems of ppl not wanting to travel when someone might turn in a quest a certain way and ppl crowding to make sure someone does turn it in the right way then upset if a quest isn't turning on the right way. Often an evil player who wants to turn in a quest will go alone in a group of players to turn it in if they want to choose an evil option for gold etc. "O u want this soul back? You are gonna have to pay for it" for example. Lots of dm poking I see over this coming. Also this doesn't take into consideration the many quests that ppl turn in in certain ways for rp reasons in a certain way. Ppl can go kill so and so orcs or do seemingly good things for completely different reasons than being "good". Also yes it's gonna push ppl toward doing dungeons to balance their alignment another shade of ooc. Hard feelings toward other players likely aswell for ooc if some good or evil or lawful or chaotic character gets shifted and they didn't have direct control over why it happened.

[Southpaw]

Feb 10, 2019 9:23:17 GMT -5 Andros said:

I like that we can't simply ignore quest items and rewards now, so party members that care (like paladins and monks) have a reason to speak up about these things and maybe try to insist on handling such items or speaking to NPCs to ensure the right thing is done.

I also think this thread is ridiculously exaggerated, it's just 1 or 2 points at a time Jesus Christ.

What I would like to see is the rewards being equalized along all alingments so there's no meta motivation to pick one alignment or another and the decision is 100% RP based.

I've never seen a PC take a non-good quest ending while adventuring as a good aligned PC in a party of good aligned characters.  If there is someone out there taking evil quest endings as a paladin or something, I see that as a low frequency abuse of the system that the DM's should handle as an individual offender.  If it's an epidemic across the server population, then dang did my characters get vaccinated somehow, because I just haven't been seeing it.

Also, 1-2 points at a time add up.  Do 3 dungeons a day, and if you start on Sunday, your alignment potentially shifts somewhere around Thursday that week.

Putting any sort of game mechanical reward to the decision adds incentive to meta the choices rather than removing it.  I can now play a neutral-required character as evil in role play, and every time I actually get seen by a DM and bumped towards evil, I can go farm the dungeons to put myself back to neutral.  Thus I can role play as if evil, but any time a PC tries to use PFE or smite evil at me in response to my evil actions, it fails, because I've farmed alignment points to keep my character sheet at neutral.

[xeneize]

I mean. I understand why this was put in place. I am probably one of the few here that are somewhat okay with the change; it should bring a little more importance to the carelessness people have had with their friendships; groupings of evil and good, law and chaos. It should be of no surprise that a barbarian is going to be doing things that greatly put the paladin or monk in a bad light; or the known evil with the champion of good. Yet people do not really seem to care about these things for different reasons.

On the other hand....

What I am unhappy with however is the alignment shifting to be present at all in any form of automated system in a roleplaying setting, questing in this case. I am a strong believer that if roleplay is monitored accordingly by the staff; then alignment shifts should be a thing handled by the observing DM team. I do not agree with the presence of this system in everyday questing; while understandable, it does not leave much place to what's actually happening in-character. Hence why I believe such things should fall under DM jurisdiction.

[Lady Frost]

Part of me likes the idea. That's the part of me that likes alignment changes. I love when the server is dynamic, including that characters are held to the choices they make by shifting alignments. I've advocated for more alignment shifts for a long time.

Part of me hates this idea. That's the part of me that hates half-hearted attempts at punishment. That's what I see this as, a change because DM's were seeing people end quests in ways that were not on par with their alignments. And since DM's rarely ever change alignments themselves because they don't want to be yelled at for three days and have to read forum thread complaints for a week it was decided to make it automated so people don't have a specific person to yell at for it. The problem then becomes that these small instances at the end of a single trip have the ability to shift your alignment as much as years and years of RP (because DM's almost never shift your alignment). A long time ago I asked to have Zoe's alignment shifted to LN and I got 2 good points by DM Urgh Argh - ever. Other than (maybe?) killing all the celestials in our guild plot with Hawk, years and years ago, I'm not sure I've ever gotten an alignment shift for anything of note. No lawful shifts from fighting in the Sembian War. No evil shifts from helping murder all those people in the maze, no evil shift for helping build a Loviatan Temple, no lawful shift for peacefully turning over her island to the Crown. See the problem? If alignments were consistently in flux then I have zero issues with auto alignment adjusters, but when the massive, major things our characters do have zero effect on our alignments, why should tiny events that we're only doing (and barely paying attention to after the 100th time) to get XP because we can't get XP any other way? It's poorly thought out and, to me, a way for DM's to avoid having to take responsibility for altering alignments.

If altering alignments were more consistent and not just used as punishment players would be far less concerned when their alignment moved in the 'wrong' direction.

[Razgriz]

Swearing the oath of certain lawful organizations, be them player controlled or DM controlled, should give lawful points as a default.

GG vols, VR reserves, Triad, Oghrann, RCMH, Harpers... Those come to mind.

Maybe Ironsworn too, because they are still supervised by the Crown and most likely have their own set of codes and rules.

By the same token, joining one of the evil orgainizations should shift the alignment of the characters somewhat to what is considered the standard for that organization.

[malclave]

Not sure how this would go over, but would it be possible to script a chat command so a character can toggle receiving quest rewards off and on?

[abby]

I’ll bet most of the major events you don’t get alignment shifts for aren’t DMs avoiding it as Lady Frost said, it’s probablu just DMs not thinking of it. Most of us act consistent with our alignment most of the time unless it’s because you caught their attention for acting out of your alignment, so it’s probably not something that occurs to them most of the time. If you’re “trying” to shift your alignment, maybe mention it to DMs whenever you’re doing things that are more in line with where you want to be so they think about it.

Abby got a chaotic point for doing something tricky for a good cause. Fair enough, but she’s overwhelmingly lawful so if I really want that lawful point back, I’ll ask for it. After testifying at the VR council meeting, I asked for it back since that was acting lawful even though I thought it would get Abb killed. I got piety instead (DM probably thought I’d need a free raise more than a lawful point lol), but the point is, if I keep showing interest in getting a lawful point, I’m sure I will by asking. Then again a few chaotic points is probably fine.

[Animayhem]

I dislike this also.  I feel it will decrease rp interaction  as any group of any alignment make up will get hit.  The alignment shift is essentially black and white good or evil.

Neutral characters have the worse of it in my opinion, especially those playing true neutral.

Marister got hit with an alignment shift for a story line. I disagreed with the shift but after a long dragged out process I was put back more where I should be and it was lessen by the fact is was dm shift

I am for dm alignment change due to rp over this auto shift.  Alignment is ooc information anyway. Plus alignment shifts for some can hamper their abilities and skills they worked hard to achieve.

Personally I think since we have an increased dm staff this would not be needed.

Now if people can justify they should not get a shift then there is a lot of ooc "paperwork" to prove it and even if one does, it still may not get changed.

So you are stuck again.

Auto alignment shift brings ooc into rp in my opinion.

[Animayhem]

Feb 10, 2019 11:50:03 GMT -5 malclave said:

Not sure how this would go over, but would it be possible to script a chat command so a character can toggle receiving quest rewards off and on?

This is kind of a double edged dilemma.  Many quests give decent xp and lets face it xp is needed.  So agian this brings ooc into rp.

[Lady Frost]

Feb 10, 2019 12:11:38 GMT -5 abby said:

I’ll bet most of the major events you don’t get alignment shifts for aren’t DMs avoiding it as Lady Frost said, it’s probablu just DMs not thinking of it. Most of us act consistent with our alignment most of the time unless it’s because you caught their attention for acting out of your alignment, so it’s probably not something that occurs to them most of the time. If you’re “trying” to shift your alignment, maybe mention it to DMs whenever you’re doing things that are more in line with where you want to be so they think about it.

Abby got a chaotic point for doing something tricky for a good cause. Fair enough, but she’s overwhelmingly lawful so if I really want that lawful point back, I’ll ask for it. After testifying at the VR council meeting, I asked for it back since that was acting lawful even though I thought it would get Abb killed. I got piety instead (DM probably thought I’d need a free raise more than a lawful point lol), but the point is, if I keep showing interest in getting a lawful point, I’m sure I will by asking. Then again a few chaotic points is probably fine.

No, I agree that for major events it is likely because they forgot. What I am claiming they are avoiding is manually giving shifts when they witness quest events being completed (out of alignment). Instead of manually punishing the characters, they want to reinstate auto punishing them.

My point was that whether they are ignoring or forgetting (either way), if major events don't shift our alignment, why should menial ones? If the only reason we get alignment shifts is as punishment, of course people will be upset. Give characters alignment shifts when they're acting -within- their alignment too and these "punishment points" would be easier to handle. abby, You and I are not the common player. We even have Player Advocates for players that are uncomfortable speaking up to DM's. A lot of players aren't going to be willing to ping PA's and DM's for their points back over and over until they get it. They're going to sit there quietly, resenting the point and the rule change that forced it on them.

[EDM Entori]

Feb 9, 2019 23:46:58 GMT -5 @cygnus said:

I would have bet my life savings that you wouldn't pass up an opportunity to lecture us on this subject. Every. Single. Penny. Here's some advise for you, look up the word 'advocate' in your dictionary and tell us what it says.

A rather unjustified response.

I've taken great pains over the years, to realize that NWN is mechanical and limiting, but I often see people cast "protection from good"((for those scratching their head see below, please note "EVIL")) without a bother, I've also seen goodly aligned priests and wizards that -know- that spell is an evil aligned spell, do nothing. why because it's easy and it's easy to ignore it and mechanics wise it gives a party a HUGE boon to being mind immune. Now I've seen people go "I've casted protection from law/choas" and I'll give that, my two points because the spell should allow axiomatic and what-ever anti law is.

"griefing" blah blah .. I really don't by that, we're talking small point changes, not entire alignment changes.

If Paladin joe is in a party with mikey b rogue, steals an item. That is likely to result in a shift chaotic, and it should, under a PNP table if I saw that, I'd survey the reactions and your right realize that Paladin JOE stuck by his guns. but if the paladin did not step in, AT all, and I expect it to be "put that back or else" then Paladin joe, did his job. He was still party to thievery. so in NWN land and our 100 pt systems, if you shifted your alignment 1 pt towards choatic, well. now you've told him, this has no reflection on you. but if you keep traveling with someone whos going to cast, protection from good, animate dead, and other evil descriptor spells, (in example) then that is going to chip away at your "good standing" .. same as watching people loot a house, and those 1 or 2 or 3 chaotic points are going to shift you .. over time.

this frees up the Dm's to watch. Now, I fully expect that the DM team is MORE involved in telling people hey "that was a chaotic or lawful, or good/evil act" heres two points.

spend the day, doing "penance" well then, here's 1 lawful point. This Isn't just a negative, these is scripted ways that you the player can regain or maintain your alignment as well.

as a player this is a great thing, that is going to force some edger rp, and its fantastic. do we need to disclose our alignments, nope? but no longer will it be ignored.

now if these scripted changes are more than 1 -3 alignment points either way, I'll definitely advocate a reduction. but you have 30 pts, as a 100% LG pally, to get to Neutral good. 1 pt isn't going to sway ya.

Protection from Good
(Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 266)

Abjuration [Evil]
Level: Cleric 1, Wu Jen 1, Spellthief 1, Paladin of Tyranny 1, Paladin of Slaughter 1, Hexblade 1 (Arcane), Demonologist 1, Death Master 1, Savant 1 (Divine), Sha'ir 1, Divine Bard 1, Runescarred Berserker 1, Disciple of Thrym 1, Adept 1, Wizard 1, Sorcerer 1, Urban Adept 1, Evil 1, Hades (SpC) 1, Edgewalker Sentinel 1, Diabolic (FC2) 1,
Components: V, S, M, DF,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No; see text

This spell functions like protection from evil, except that the deflection and resistance bonuses apply to attacks from good creatures, and good summoned creatures cannot touch the subject.

[Southpaw]

Does anyone know if there are chaotic scripted actions out there which are also good, or only evil actions for chaos points?

No specifics for spoilers please, just yes or no.

[tingly]

Talking about what happens in PNP has limited relevance. DMs aren't omnipresent here, and can be more than a little difficult to reach at times. There are countless circumstances that scripts throwing alignment changes at a party simply can't recognize...and indeed, plenty of instances where actions outside of those scripted interactions SHOULD be shifting alignment, but don't, either because it's not seen or the DMs don't think to do it.

So, what are the options for someone who gets blindsided by this? They have to 'grind' away the alignment change with other scripted interactions? Or they have to start pestering DMs frequently to make sure their alignment is safe? Maybe it's just me, but neither of those sound great.

[Deleted]

Any rogue with paladin Joe is gonna hide that they are stealing. Stealth or different room. They both still get hit

[Deleted]

Now instead paladin Joe will tell the rogue oocly they won't travel with them because they do things they don't know about.

[StabbingNirvana]

Paladins also don't have detect evil.

I'm sure I hung out with evilish characters recently in two different groups but with those characters not exactly shouting out "we're evil", there's not much you could do without very long winded RP, and even that might not yield anything if the character is good at being deceptive or hiding their evil acts. To be fair I did have to tell a rather open Velsharoonite that my character wouldn't associate with them and they took their leave.

Getting hit with chaotic and evil points isn't worth it. Eventually after finding out which quests do give alignment hits, it'd probably be best to make the OOC decision to just solo them or do them with other absolutely confirmed goodies.