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Post by Animayhem on Feb 10, 2019 13:28:24 GMT -5
Paladins also don't have detect evil. I'm sure I hung out with an evilish characters recently in two different groups but with those characters not exactly shouting out "we're evil", there's not much you could do without very long winded RP, and even that might not yield anything if the character is good at being deceptive or hiding their evil acts. To be fair I did have to tell a rather open Velsharoonite that my character wouldn't associate with them and they took their leave. Getting hit with chaotic and evil points isn't worth it. Eventually after finding out which quests do give alignment hits, it'd probably be best to make the OOC decision to just solo them or do them with other absolutely confirmed goodies. Understandable but again this brings OOC out and so many tines it is mentioned we should be in character at all times. |
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Feb 10, 2019 16:58:49 GMT -5
If Paladin joe is in a party with mikey b rogue, steals an item. That is likely to result in a shift chaotic, and it should, under a PNP table if I saw that, I'd survey the reactions and your right realize that Paladin JOE stuck by his guns. but if the paladin did not step in, AT all, and I expect it to be "put that back or else" then Paladin joe, did his job. He was still party to thievery. so in NWN land and our 100 pt systems, if you shifted your alignment 1 pt towards choatic, well. now you've told him, this has no reflection on you. but if you keep traveling with someone whos going to cast, protection from good, animate dead, and other evil descriptor spells, (in example) then that is going to chip away at your "good standing" .. same as watching people loot a house, and those 1 or 2 or 3 chaotic points are going to shift you .. over time. this frees up the Dm's to watch. Now, I fully expect that the DM team is MORE involved in telling people hey "that was a chaotic or lawful, or good/evil act" heres two points. Paladins mechanically have no perceptive class skills on FRC/NWN to see a rogue thieving, so as rogues are able to keep pumping points into their stealth skills with their 8+int plus skill points per level against the paladin's measly 2+int, a paladin won't be able to keep up nor would they have the. And generally have no need/skill points to take spellcraft to be able to identify what spells (good or evil) are being cast. Additionally, just cause the character gets hit with an alignment shift doesn't mean the character himself suddenly comes to the conclusion that a major wrong has occurred. The only way a Joe Paladin should get the alignment shift is if he personally authorized an action or turned a blind eye because Mikey B Rogue was being a doodoo-rogue. For the most part, a Joe Paladin is pretty clueless about what's going on around him. Unless he takes points and turns into Joe Champion and Spot dumps. But that's another story for another day … |
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Post by Warlord on Feb 10, 2019 17:11:31 GMT -5
Not everyone that comes into NwN-FRC/DnD will fully understand the alignment system. By the way, alignment (actions/ethos/deeds/etc), are morally objective truths in DnD - not subjective truths. There are 2 books that iterate this well: The Book of Vile Darkness & Book of Exalted Deeds - if any of it ever feels limiting/superfluous, that's because it is and a state of limitation within the system. We pick a side and we roleplay-act. Law/Chaos become far harder to comprehend and more resonate the echo of a DM's campaign needs. We encourage culture needs on FRC already. Like walking instead of running. Spending time developing our PC's instead of just a wing-ho dungeon romp. Crediting measurable Do's-And-Dont's of how to appreciate: Law, Chaos, Evil & Good, is something long overdue IMO for FRC. - I suggest DM's form a rubric of expectation for Law, Chaos, Evil, and Good and post it somewhere for inbound players to recognize some of these expectations, for current players to know a standard, and for DM/DM Player/Player, & Player/DM recognize where they stand. Too much inconsistency gossips around.
- Stick to 3 to 5 points per axis
- It certainly beats reading 8 page threads of 100 threads of this old topic
- There is no promise people get a point in the alignment if they act within the rubric, but it can help DM's know how to reward for consistent RP
- Consider it as a reflection of the social-cultural needs/wants of the DM's expectations, NwN mechanical limits, and the greater FRC community.
- It's not supposed to be easy, but it is certainly possible
It's OK to spell out a standard in a setting where even among the DM team there are varying concerns on what is best decreed among the alignment spectrum.
A lawful character of mine shouldn't have gotten diminished law points because they support a PC not acting in Cormyr's laws accordance. That becomes a set-in-stone perspective of /only promoting/ the Law of Cormyr, above anything else. This is an example & not a complaint. There are varying opinions among DM's about that even which further marks the disconnects. What about the PC's that advocate/lecture for Structure & Order, or Disorder and Chaos?
There needs to be common ground citation somewhere to solidify an understanding of the culture of these axis' so that player's: don't feel helpless when entering a situation, or, don't feel overtly slighted for an action taken.
A PC might not act in a certain manner if they simply understand a fundamental step. This isn't to say a PC is infallible either. The point is, more common knowledge and cultural understanding of what we're trying to build towards ... will help /lessen/ the distress of the gameplay regarding this subject.
We can make it easy or we can make it hard...
As for the inherent alignment shifts/mechanics renabled?
If you're a Blackguard, Cleric, Paladin, Druid, worried about alignment-specific items, or otherwise of a class that is alignment based ... just avoid those dungeons, or do the reverse to off-kilter the shifts. I don't approve of these mechanical road bumps because it puts too many people at a disadvantage without honoring numerous other perspectives. Funny thing is, the most obvious deeds of evil and good, should be giving you an alignment shift.
Other viable solutions....
1. Pick your offending quests, and get rid of them. Put something less political.
2. Pick your top offending quests, take away the mechanical shift, but some /more concrete dialogue/ to coach the player and reader about the morale consequences of their actions. This can be within the quest dialogue, or some sort of resonating/echoing feeling in Yellow Text within the combat screen.
S'the best I got. I ain't thinking nothing will be perfect, but ... education at some capacity for the public, and measured/known/fair rubric, certainly can't hurt.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 17:28:14 GMT -5
I appreciate your comments but if this was about making a conscious decision to take on a certain quest then I would not be nearly so jerked off about the whole thing. I'm talking about the rogue example above doing things that are unknown to the pally or at least not known until it is too late.
BAM BAM BAM
Three points towards chaotic in 15 seconds.
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 10, 2019 19:20:51 GMT -5
I appreciate your comments but if this was about making a conscious decision to take on a certain quest then I would not be nearly so jerked off about the whole thing. I'm talking about the rogue example above doing things that are unknown to the pally or at least not known until it is too late. BAM BAM BAM Three points towards chaotic in 15 seconds. But only quests have been activated as per the update statement. If other non quest triggers are now apppying those need to be seperated and removed as yes. You can't be omnipresent about boxes. But an entire party should have input on dialogues and character interactions. |
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Post by Animayhem on Feb 11, 2019 10:56:58 GMT -5
Does anyone know if there are chaotic scripted actions out there which are also good, or only evil actions for chaos points? No specifics for spoilers please, just yes or no. Newp, just for doing evils. There's also no quests that reward lawful alignment points from my memory, but some quests could have had either added by now. I know of two quests which award good points. Yes I do not remember any lawful quests. |
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Post by Animayhem on Feb 11, 2019 11:29:07 GMT -5
I appreciate your comments but if this was about making a conscious decision to take on a certain quest then I would not be nearly so jerked off about the whole thing. I'm talking about the rogue example above doing things that are unknown to the pally or at least not known until it is too late. BAM BAM BAM Three points towards chaotic in 15 seconds. But only quests have been activated as per the update statement. If other non quest triggers are now apppying those need to be seperated and removed as yes. You can't be omnipresent about boxes. But an entire party should have input on dialogues and character interactions. Here is the thing. This world , unless you know unlock spells, have a pixie or a familiar or have lock and trap skills yourself, you are pretty much stuck with traveling with a rogue or doing a dungeon and missing out on the rewards because chest and doors can not be bashed and destroyed by mundane means. These actions could have consequences as they do in NWN SOU and HOU which if you open a door or chest by means other than the rightful key, you get chaotic points
Personally I think alignment quests should be out as alignment is ooc.
I did play on a world that had this but they also had ways to get your alignment back. It was done by tithing to the appropriate temple. It was not always instant and this world had a reputation system and if you did not tithe enough, the priest would tell you. If you did your alignment would shift towards normal. It did not have to always be your deity if an alignment you sought.
I do not think it would work here given the lore and setting.It could be possible some modification to this but limited to your own god or pantheon(ie the Seldarine). In a way it would be like doing something for a dm to change after working towards doing so.
But an entire party should have input on dialogues and character interactions.(Hellscream)
This is ideal but does not always happen. A rogue may slip away briefly and do some chaotic and no one knows except an alignment shift(which is ooc) So now is the sticky part how do you attempt to find out and make it seem like it is in character? You could possibly say something like," You have left us for a bit. What have you been up to?" Then I suppose a bunch of dice rolls could be done.
I have never played PNP but understand more dice rolls and time is need to move the story along. PNP you can always return to on the schedule night. Here you do not have that luxury. Players times in game can be short and they do not have the luxury of point and counterpoint.
To me it may possibly lead done a road of isolation for that player and that character. While we have had an influx of players, it is still hard to find people to travel with.
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Post by abby on Feb 11, 2019 14:26:24 GMT -5
If im in a group with a “treasure hunter” and ive got no idea he’s a thief and that he’s stolen anything or done anything wrong; and I get an evil/chaotic point that I don’t have any IC knowledge of, I guess that would be weird, but wouldn’t I also be standing there when said roguish character made the dialogue choice that got me hit? Wouldn’t there be some IC indicator so that you could report the ner-do-well to the guards, or recompensate whoever he screwed in order to regain your point quick enough? (Next time a DM is on?)
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Post by Charon's Claw on Feb 11, 2019 15:09:10 GMT -5
This would be a better change if the alignment changes on the server weren't overwhelmingly saturated by chaos and evil only. If Law and Good was also equally represented I'd be more for this.
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Post by Windhover on Feb 11, 2019 15:28:10 GMT -5
This would be a better change if the alignment changes on the server weren't overwhelmingly saturated by chaos and evil only. If Law and Good was also equally represented I'd be more for this. Norah earned 2 points towards good in 1 day after completing two quests (pre epic). I'd say lawful options are the ones lacking, but the three others appear consistent in number and distribution. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 18:13:32 GMT -5
We have to go beyond quest related shifts. Chaotic shifts can happen as a result of looting, as mentioned above. If I had some reason to stay chaotic, and I started drifting towards neutral, it would be a very simple matter to go into a crypt and start looting coffins. No such options exist as far as I know for lawful. Completing quests are limited to 1 or 2 a day, assuming you know the right ones and can get past the 7 day rule, and from others' comments it seems it doesn't even exist for lawful shifts. A very bad situation for pallys.
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Post by gathera on Feb 12, 2019 2:51:43 GMT -5
I have yet to encounter one of these but then again my frequency of play isn't as high as others. I do hope that if any alignment change occurs it is for a significant actions. Something along the line of dealing with a demon or devil or conversely an angelic creature. What is not worthy of an alignment shift is merely breaking the local oafs flute. Petulance should never result in an alignment shift given the parameters set in the past for DM alignment shifts.
It should take extraordinary events to modify ones alignment. It should be a slow process. It should never be a oh one month later tra-la-la I have shifted one block over to either evil or good. Even a small repeated shift will quickly accumulate. Two points in a week means in a matter of a few months a radical change, potentially. You are taking about an immense change occurring in a characters outlook on an minuscule time frame. It diminishes RP in my mind and opens up the Pandora's box of oh I am a paladin today and a black guard tomorrow then a paladin next week.
Can a character change alignment Certainly and in response to accumulated actions of measurable significance. I do sincerely hope that the changes implemented now are in response to truly monumental character actions and deeds and not a merely choices of petty spite and petulance.
*Laughing Speaking from atop a small mound of broken flutes*
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Post by EDM Entori on Feb 12, 2019 10:49:13 GMT -5
We have to go beyond quest related shifts. Chaotic shifts can happen as a result of looting, as mentioned above. If I had some reason to stay chaotic, and I started drifting towards neutral, it would be a very simple matter to go into a crypt and start looting coffins. No such options exist as far as I know for lawful. Completing quests are limited to 1 or 2 a day, assuming you know the right ones and can get past the 7 day rule, and from others' comments it seems it doesn't even exist for lawful shifts. A very bad situation for pallys. these are currently not implimented on FRC. the quest line rewards are what I thought were implimented. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2019 14:32:42 GMT -5
Well now somehow I have lost 2 more lawful points and I haven't got the slightest idea why. If this ridiculous crap somehow effects my paladin status then it will just be off to a different server to play. I've never broken any law, ever, that I am aware of.
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Post by Razgriz on Feb 12, 2019 14:46:30 GMT -5
Well now somehow I have lost 2 more lawful points and I haven't got the slightest idea why. If this ridiculous crap somehow effects my paladin status then it will just be off to a different server to play. I've never broken any law, ever, that I am aware of. It would help if you explained which quest or dungeon did you complete recently. You can send me a PM, and maybe I could explain to you why any possible action done there caused the shift. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2019 14:58:03 GMT -5
The original 3 point loss was on the date of my OP in this thread. That put me down from 86 to 83. Today I noticed I was at 81. The only quest done in that time was northern Suzail orcs. I also mapped some areas south of Valkur's Roar, killing some orcs, spiders, and bandits but not entering any caves. I joined a group that was headed to the haunted halls but dropped out due to a party level disparity before even getting to that zone.
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 12, 2019 20:32:59 GMT -5
We have to go beyond quest related shifts. Chaotic shifts can happen as a result of looting, as mentioned above. If I had some reason to stay chaotic, and I started drifting towards neutral, it would be a very simple matter to go into a crypt and start looting coffins. No such options exist as far as I know for lawful. Completing quests are limited to 1 or 2 a day, assuming you know the right ones and can get past the 7 day rule, and from others' comments it seems it doesn't even exist for lawful shifts. A very bad situation for pallys. these are currently not implimented on FRC. the quest line rewards are what I thought were implimented. ^^^^ |
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Post by probablyamage on Feb 13, 2019 21:31:30 GMT -5
A concern of mine is that there is no viable neutral option. If you come across someone who is captured no one but a heartless monster actively leaning into the concept of evil wouldn't remove the shackles and say 'go on. Good luck.'. It's not a good act, it's something that most modern day serial killers would do if only to preserve their cover. It isn't as if adventurers are traveling to rescue these people....it's completely incidental. If you want to turn a rescue into a good act, instead of saying 'the path is clear', you should have to escort them back to their village and miss out on that sweet boss xp and treasure. True good takes effort and sacrifice. Turn in a reward but turn down the gold (without getting extra xp) that's good. That's inconveniencing yourself for another's benefit. It would also be nice if the evil options weren't pure stupid-evil.
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Post by Animayhem on Feb 15, 2019 10:58:24 GMT -5
A concern of mine is that there is no viable neutral option. If you come across someone who is captured no one but a heartless monster actively leaning into the concept of evil wouldn't remove the shackles and say 'go on. Good luck.'. It's not a good act, it's something that most modern day serial killers would do if only to preserve their cover. It isn't as if adventurers are traveling to rescue these people....it's completely incidental. If you want to turn a rescue into a good act, instead of saying 'the path is clear', you should have to escort them back to their village and miss out on that sweet boss xp and treasure. True good takes effort and sacrifice. Turn in a reward but turn down the gold (without getting extra xp) that's good. That's inconveniencing yourself for another's benefit. It would also be nice if the evil options weren't pure stupid-evil. Good role play but an ooc discussion would need to be done if the party accepts it. We like to keep things in character as much as we can. Many area's which have multiple quests need a decent party. With once every seven day rule(which is fine) you can not come back with another crew until then. So an ooc discussion would need to be done with the party members.
Before the activation of the alignment shift the release could be done and people could rp their feelings about it more.
I get the fact that maybe it was done to encourage more role play but in fact it encourages more ooc in my opinion.
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Post by heartofsilver on Feb 15, 2019 11:37:54 GMT -5
I dislike this simply because this creates ~more~ ooc work to function. I suppose I need to send tells to people asking about alignment conflicts instead of letting it come out organically through RP. Also, now I gotta keep logs in case I get an automated alignment bump and then advocate myself to a DM who HOPEFULLY sees my characters moral code the way I do.
I find this choice to be a lazy one, and a little bit condescending.
Not a fan.
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Post by heartofsilver on Feb 15, 2019 13:03:34 GMT -5
The AD&D alignment system is great if your a game dev and youre looking for a way to make cool weapons and abilities designed to do things like "Lets make a sword that is holy, that really really hurt people who are generally badguys"
When it comes to ~actual~ ethics, its entirely too simplistic, and I argue actually ~stifles~ RP. It might be a great introductory look to such questions when one hasn't been exposed to them before, but in the end they are woefully inadequate.
Im going to give an example of what I am talking about and use a common FRC event that people can relate to in order to illustrate the point:
Party Rogue loots a locked chest - the party doesn't know who it belongs to, but just know its someone else's property: My responses could be:
- "Ha ha! Yeah, nice job!" My response probably is chaotic, but not necessarily. Will be explained later
- "..." *Doesn't visible react to the looting* My response (or lack of one) could be the result of many factors. Seems neutral, maybe?
- "Wait a minute, what are you doing? That doesnt belong to you!" Lawful, probably but not necessarly.
Now lets look at these responses more in depth.
"Ha ha! Yeah, nice job!" in a vacuum is probably choatic, but it could be evil too. This response could be from someone who just take general delight in the misery of others with no real strong affliction to the ideals of law and chaos.
The "..." could be general indifference, which MIGHT be a neutral action, or could be a sign of callousness - which might make it an evil action. Perhaps I am actually a good, law-abiding citizen, but it was actually Dusk who did the looting and I am super intimidated by her. Maybe I mean well, but I'm just a coward - so much so that I dont speak up and defend my values? Do I deserve to be nudged along the alignment axis because Im afraid?
"Wait a minute, what are you doing?" suggest a lawful act, sure. But there are plenty of other reasons for someone to dispute the looting - lawful ownership is just one of them. Those might be my words, and even my actions, but my intent could be to make the rogue lose face and back down because I want to appear strong. Am I being lawful in this situation?
Ok, lets complicate it further. Lets say the chest in question belongs to a wealthy merchant. What our views are on wealthy merchants can color our choices.
"Ha ha! Yeah, nice job!" Might still be chaotic, but if my experience has taught me that wealthy merchants are typically unscrupulous, but if that is my belief, then this could be argued as a "Good" act too
"..." could be a sign of inner turmoil. I could decide merchants are greedy and something needs to be done, but I don't know if ~this~ is the way. Im torn. My party rogue is behaving just like the merchants I hate, but at the same time, no one is doing anything about it, and this is ~something~. Is this neutral? Good? Its pretty complicated
"Wait, what are you doing? This doesn't belong to you" again, superficially seems lawful. It probably is, but if I am in on this greedy merchants scams, I might decide I want to protect it. It can also be an "Evil" act.
Complicating it further - I believe the merchant is greedy, but he is infact not...he just happens to be successful.
Can you see where I am going? In every example, a blanket algorithm assigns me a chaotic point because our party rogue decided to loot the chest. If I want it reversed I need to keep a log and argue this whole mess to a DM who might have a different view of my character than I do. This is too much "book-keeping" and I promise this idea is going to be a headache down the road.
Nevermind the people who are going to game the system to exploit builds using alignment shifts...
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Post by CourtJester on Feb 16, 2019 13:13:26 GMT -5
I'll weigh in, and I'll be blunt because I don't want to write out a lengthy post.
You have no idea why my neutrally aligned character tolerates an act of "evil" or "good." To shift his alignment without asking is arrogant. Unless you PM me asking what my character's intent is, you have no business shifting my alignment. Period. End of discussion.
That being said, I have never had my alignment shifted "good," "lawful," or "chaotic" from a DM. My character has done plenty of "good" deeds, "lawful" deeds, "chaotic" deeds; yet only gets "evil" points for something an "evil" PC near him does. Alignment shifts, in my experience, have been entirely one-sided.
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Post by Razgriz on Feb 16, 2019 13:49:31 GMT -5
I have been thinking about it and...
It is "fun" in an OOC sort of way to be able to finally reach a specific alignment archytpe. The titles look cool and it is a mini game of its own to reach the desired archtype.
Despite this, the generic points also diminish and cheapen the accomplishment IC. Actually, there is no IC achievement behind it anymore. Also, if a DM grants points, now all one has to do is to complete a specific quest to revert that.
Instead of it being a matter of effort and consistency done throughout the years, and also luck when it comes to DMs remembering it or granting the points, now all that is required is selecting the conversation paths that will grant the points that your PC needs for it.
In an out of charatcer context, it is nice to have the alignment under your control, but not so much IC. Honestly, it is more meaningful if the points are granted quietly by a DM.
Mayhaps if the community as a whole was more agreeable or agreed to be accepting of DM granted alignment shifts, then this change could be reverted.
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Post by Animayhem on Feb 16, 2019 19:39:51 GMT -5
This morning I had a dm roleplay with Marister and due to my decision my alignment was shifted by the dm. It made sense for the point to be added. i agree with Shamoke aobut more cosideration in regards to neutral characters.
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Post by Animayhem on Feb 16, 2019 19:43:10 GMT -5
Get rid of alignment quests, People can wait and just go back and adjust, DM alignment more meaningful .
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Post by lucesi on Feb 17, 2019 7:16:47 GMT -5
Think most of the points I would make have been voiced by others above. Although i have not yet encountered any of the changes yet, I agree with being wary about these automated alignment shifts that simply cannot take into account a a character's reasons and motivations for taking such an action. For example, Richie the Lawful-Evil Red Wizard scours an orc dungeon and at the end finds a captured purple dragon. It costs him nothing to release the poor chap and yet would present a great propaganda opportunity for the Thayans and to spread their tendrils of influence still further. This would not be an altruistic act and rewarding 'good' points would be a bit silly. Leaving the prisoner to fester or butchering him where he stands would make no sense and would not assist the Thayan strategic goals whatsoever, so it would be the sensible option for Richie to release him. Simply awarding alignment points for clicking one of the options doesn't take into the account the reasoning behind the player's choice, which is why I think alignment shifts should remain under the control of DMs only.
Of course personally I find the notion of alignments in rp games a bit silly but that's an entirely different topic which I'm sure has been covered elsewhere.
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Post by Lady Frost on Feb 17, 2019 11:55:24 GMT -5
So far I've had numerous alignment shifts on various characters and for most of them, I have no idea why my alignment was shifted. Three evil points were from someone that afterwards sent a party message that said, "Opps, I forgot that would affect all of you" and a couple others were while loot was being sold and I assume might have been a quest item turn ins.
I have to imagine that's not the best way of going about it.
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Post by Dobian on Mar 1, 2019 19:44:23 GMT -5
Get rid of alignment quests, People can wait and just go back and adjust, DM alignment more meaningful . Alignment-shifting quests are misguided and wrongheaded and there was a reason they were turned off years ago. Why this feature has been turned back on again completely baffles me. This is D&D not World of Warcraft. If you want to change this into a server where you visit the NPC signpost with an exclamation over their head and and have your character's personal story and development more significantly determined by that over actual roleplay, FRC is going to go downhill fast. It takes YEARS to dramatically alter a character's alignment through roleplay. I know because I HAVE DONE IT. To have that undone by talking to signposts and turning in meaningless quests for xp rewards over the course of a few weeks reduces this server to the status of MMORPG. Period. |
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Post by DM Hawk on Mar 1, 2019 23:13:35 GMT -5
Howdy folks, Investigating Dobian's issue reported below, I couldn't find a smoking gun to explain why the character's alignment would jump with the magnitude as described. frc.proboards.com/thread/30097/high-hunt-quest-alignment-bugLooking further I came across information that was new to me or long forgotten. When an alignment score is adjusted in NWN enough to shift into a new alignment, the score jumps to the mid-range of the new alignment. A one point adjustment can trigger a 15 or 20 point jump when crossing the threshold. The feelings and opinions posted in this thread have been under consideration by members of the DM Team, along with our own thoughts and views, and discussions have been taking place about revising/reverting the alignment aspect of quest rewards. However, the potential for a 15 or 20 point jump when crossing an alignment threshold was not the desired outcome of this change. So, work to revert this change as is will begin this weekend. The DM Team will continue discussing the roleplay of alignment on FRC and continue exploring ways to encourage it. If anyone has any questions, concerns, or heartburn about these changes, please feel free to PM me directly. Thanks everyone, and Happy Gaming |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 13:17:20 GMT -5
Hi Hawk, what about the original issue of this topic? An entire group being penalized in alignment due to actions out of their control by one person? Has this been discussed? Will it continue?
It also seems like I and at least a few others have had shifts with no idea of how it happened. Will this be addressed?
Thanks.
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