How to be more Paladiny

[marredwolf]

I would like to create this thraad in order to stop the nut jobs from coming at me with their rp police. My question to the dms is merely a ruling on the correct way to play an alingment or a class (this one is for paladins). Ill post the contentious things about me and my paladin, and the dms decide if im a nut job and not playing right. This shouldnt be needed, but after much debate and no deliberation, the silence reguarding my pc in particular is troubling, mostly because they assume that they are correct. Now please, dms, tell me whats correct agaibn cause i forgot.

Let me take you to a locked thread, my thread, locked not by my consent but for some other reason. and thus it spawns this...


frc.proboards.com/thread/25837/posted-letter-on-player-behalf



Veridian Knight:
*Attached to the top of the notice*
A malarite that kidnaps youth for their hunt, ain't protected by the law you nut job.

Me: this was originally my character's efforts to try to enforce the law. my paladin thinks they shouldnt get away with it, but yet they do. its that simple and requires no further thinking. just a nut job trying to enforce the law. Leave it to the dms to deal with this...that should have been your one and only post. (dms please answer as you wish)


Veridian Knight:
*Attached to the left of the notice, somewhat in the middle*
You admit to not following the law? instead you choose to follow some unnamed divine law? you know, even Malar has his own set.

Me: Yes, for a paladin divine law is above this world's laws. if he were to pick one or the other he would pick his god's law. Chime in here DMs if this is incorrect. it certainly appears to need some clarification.



Veridian Knight:
Evil's a part of the verse, there are differing shades of evil some are more acceptable then others, (blah blah..)

Me: to others? well maybe, but not to a paladin. isnt that the whole point, to fight evil? DMs...should I be tolerant of evil around me because other people find it acceptable, other peeps like your own government?



Veridian Knight:
but get proof before you do you nut job, because all you're doing is playing into their faith...(dumdedum..)

Me: theres the quest, that gives you proof. talking to the npcs you get it too. and one in particular practically confesses to being one (i went looking for proof) DMs, what amount of proof is needed to convince the nobility and the lords and ladies? thats not a question i can answer, i can only answer for my character, who doggedly chases every lead and rumor to find out the truth? wrong approach?



Veridian Knight
Maybe you should actually do some investigation before you prove how stupid you are to the masses, it only makes me worry about any you deem corrupt, evil or Malarite because you obviously failed to investigate that rather simple thing.

Me: I acutally did, still am in a way. not sure what kind of investigation you want to see done here, perhaps my own investigation is not acceptable to such a high ranking roleplayer of legend! but only the DMs have that say and im eagerly awaiting an answer to that one myself


Veridian Knight
I hope the Purple's lock you up and throw away the key, for your threats against Nobles, Common Folk, Innocents, Practitioners of various faiths, Adventurers and the Law itself in an attempt to spread fear and discord among Cormyr's populace.

Me: Lets leave the npc reactions to the DMs, i think they like that sort of thing. Repeat after me...I AM JUST A PLAYER. good job!

Veridian Knight
*Covering up the signed by message*
Hiding behind a false name? oh, it most certainly couldn't be a paladin (ladedalaluli...)

Me: a rogue paladin to be more specific. meaning i emply certain rogue elements into my character. sorry it doesnt fit in with all your dreams but you dont get to tell people what they should be doing or not. again...DMs will chime in if needed, no?




Keep this in mind at all times: Paladins are Zealots. I play a Zealot. look up the word then write that down somewhere so you can remember.


ill leave the rest up to whatever the hell the dms want to say or do, but please...enough from you.



if this post gets deleted or locked for some reason, please let me know the reason so i can correct it and repost it for future generations. And please..PLEASE! next time you decide to give me a warning in the forums, tell me what i did wrong to deserve it. who punishes people and then not tell them why they are being punished? hilarious...

[Fenix]

Dec 8, 2016 13:54:43 GMT -5 marredwolf said:

I would like to create this thraad in order to stop the nut jobs from coming at me with their rp police. My question to the dms is merely a ruling on the correct way to play an alingment or a class (this one is for paladins). Ill post the contentious things about me and my paladin, and the dms decide if im a nut job and not playing right. This shouldnt be needed, but after much debate and no deliberation, the silence reguarding my pc in particular is troubling, mostly because they assume that they are correct. Now please, dms, tell me whats correct agaibn cause i forgot.

Let me take you to a locked thread, my thread, locked not by my consent but for some other reason. and thus it spawns this...


frc.proboards.com/thread/25837/posted-letter-on-player-behalf



Veridian Knight:
*Attached to the top of the notice*
A malarite that kidnaps youth for their hunt, ain't protected by the law you nut job.

Me: this was originally my character's efforts to try to enforce the law. my paladin thinks they shouldnt get away with it, but yet they do. its that simple and requires no further thinking. just a nut job trying to enforce the law. Leave it to the dms to deal with this...that should have been your one and only post. (dms please answer as you wish)


Veridian Knight:
*Attached to the left of the notice, somewhat in the middle*
You admit to not following the law? instead you choose to follow some unnamed divine law? you know, even Malar has his own set.

Me: Yes, for a paladin divine law is above this world's laws. if he were to pick one or the other he would pick his god's law. Chime in here DMs if this is incorrect. it certainly appears to need some clarification.



Veridian Knight:
Evil's a part of the verse, there are differing shades of evil some are more acceptable then others, (blah blah..)

Me: to others? well maybe, but not to a paladin. isnt that the whole point, to fight evil? DMs...should I be tolerant of evil around me because other people find it acceptable, other peeps like your own government?



Veridian Knight:
but get proof before you do you nut job, because all you're doing is playing into their faith...(dumdedum..)

Me: theres the quest, that gives you proof. talking to the npcs you get it too. and one in particular practically confesses to being one (i went looking for proof) DMs, what amount of proof is needed to convince the nobility and the lords and ladies? thats not a question i can answer, i can only answer for my character, who doggedly chases every lead and rumor to find out the truth? wrong approach?



Veridian Knight
Maybe you should actually do some investigation before you prove how stupid you are to the masses, it only makes me worry about any you deem corrupt, evil or Malarite because you obviously failed to investigate that rather simple thing.

Me: I acutally did, still am in a way. not sure what kind of investigation you want to see done here, perhaps my own investigation is not acceptable to such a high ranking roleplayer of legend! but only the DMs have that say and im eagerly awaiting an answer to that one myself


Veridian Knight
I hope the Purple's lock you up and throw away the key, for your threats against Nobles, Common Folk, Innocents, Practitioners of various faiths, Adventurers and the Law itself in an attempt to spread fear and discord among Cormyr's populace.

Me: Lets leave the npc reactions to the DMs, i think they like that sort of thing. Repeat after me...I AM JUST A PLAYER. good job!

Veridian Knight
*Covering up the signed by message*
Hiding behind a false name? oh, it most certainly couldn't be a paladin (ladedalaluli...)

Me: a rogue paladin to be more specific. meaning i emply certain rogue elements into my character. sorry it doesnt fit in with all your dreams but you dont get to tell people what they should be doing or not. again...DMs will chime in if needed, no?




Keep this in mind at all times: Paladins are Zealots. I play a Zealot. look up the word then write that down somewhere so you can remember.


ill leave the rest up to whatever the hell the dms want to say or do, but please...enough from you.



if this post gets deleted or locked for some reason, please let me know the reason so i can correct it and repost it for future generations. And please..PLEASE! next time you decide to give me a warning in the forums, tell me what i did wrong to deserve it. who punishes people and then not tell them why they are being punished? hilarious...

Posting only to voice what is inevitably going to be said in 10 more posts from people:

This kind of post should really be taken up in PM with the player and the DM, perhaps a Player Advocate! This seems more like transgression between a few people, and well....not really the place for that here.


Also, if you were warned on the Forum, it is likely clear why. if it is not clear, simply ask a DM. As someone with a 75% warning level, I can promise you that they will tell you -exactly- why.


Also, some useful Paladin Tidbits:

Paladin Orders
The "Paladin Code"
Paladin Essentials
How To Talk Kindly To People
How To Treat People With Respect

[Viridian Knight]

I'd like to remind folks that this is currently listed as a DM Q&A and Fenix (and myself) shouldn't have posted here, though I do agree with what Fenix posted.

As this paints myself in semi-bad light from certain perspectives and I feel the need to defend myself to protect my name within this community that can see and read this thread, which I really shouldn't have to do. (The dm's will just have to forgive me this time around as I was sorta dragged into defending myself)

So with that all said, I'd like to include the disclaimer that the quotes of myself are taken out of context and were in no way an attempt at role play policing anybody and merely an IC reply to threats directed at the guild my character is involved with. I'd also like to include that my character didn't believe it could be Wurek because of the very reasons listed in the reply expecting the fact that someone one was framing him for one reason or another.

The thread in question was locked after accusations of meta gaming were thrown about as well as OOC insults, the issues involved play a very great deal into the reasons behind my extended hiatus from the server but I continue to count myself as a member of this community with intentions of returning in the future and continue to lurk and chat with friends I've made here on occasion.

VK.

PS, I don't like being referred to as "A nutjob coming at you with my RP Police".

[Razgriz]

PA Merc reportin' in!

*And invading DM: Q&A once more*...

(Sorry, it is for a good cause! And this thread should be moved to another section of the forums anyways).

Guys,

A Terrible Username
Viridian Knight
marredwolf

I think this entire situation was a simple misunderstanding caused by a specific word used by Wurek on that in-character thread/post.

The first time I read that, it -did- strike me as unbecoming for a paladin, but the key Im quite sure is the context. Unfortunately, Marred could not/did not explain what he meant with that word. However, after re-reading his post, I believe that Wurek's intentions are or were somewhat different at the time.

The four of us can discuss it in PM if you like.

[Extropy]

DM Q&A isn't meant to be used in this fashion, so I am moving this thread. Just in case it's not clear, when you call out other players, it isn't fair to do so in a forum where they cannot (or should not) respond.

marredwolf, if you still want a DM response to some of this, please post just the question for the DM in another thread without the rest of it. Talking to the other players as merc suggests is likely to be more fruitful though!

[StabbingNirvana]

Not sure what all the other mumbo jumbo is all about but here's my advice as a guy who played a paladin for years.

1) Do what you think is the proper thing to do under your character's code, beliefs, and story. There are always going to be detractors both IC and OOC.

2) Paladins aren't saints, gods, or infallible. They're going to make mistakes sometimes somewhere along the way. It's ok. It happens.

3) Paladins, like any other class, have a vast range in which they could be played. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

With that, your best bet is acquainting yourself with sources on chivalry and the dogma of your character's faith. Then from there, trying to be as righteous as possible while maintaining a clean reputation amongst the good aligned folk. The evil aligned, and arguably even the neutral aligned, don't really matter.

[Aoi]

Now that it is not a DM Q&A thread anymore, i feel i can explain some things from my sight  (This is not a complaint) :

1) I'm not angry or annoyed ooc, i just find it's just a little shame, that RP going on before seemed suddenly to be ignored. Ignoring RP in my eyes is not proper nor very nice.

2) Think about your own RP and Wureks letters about the RDDs. There were only two red RDDs in the battle against the red dragon. I could understand if he would  think those two or the red ones are dangerous for example. But blocking all RDDs away from the cities can destroy many players RP they hardly worked on before. Jugding all RRDs, even those who did nothing isn't fair, even for a paladin. That is why my character thinks, that is racist.

3)

Paladins are Zealots. I play a Zealot.

Strongly disagree. If you play a Zealot, that is your decision, but please don't wonder if people will not always give you positive reactions in RP. If your character is that way, it's alright.
But not all paladins are blind Zealots. How they are depends on the deity they serve, their orders, where they come from etc.. Expecting others to follow your opinion, is not alright.

4) I reacted in RP only until now because i hoped it would create RP. But sadly our answers to Wureks letters didn't get any reactions. So it's a bit of a shame to discuss that simply ooc. Who asks the RRDs in RP, who were or are really affected? I would simply ask you all, give it a chance for everyone involved to create RP around things instead of discussing it ooc and fighting.

5) First going in dungeons and on adventures with RDDs and then going against them, was simply what caused my characters reaction in RP. Keep in mind what you yourself have played in RP before and ask yourself if it makes sense to ignore that suddenly just to do something that objects itself.

6) I have no general advice how to be more Paladiny. Like many other classes they can be very different. I would simply ask you to think about the whole concept of your character:
Which deity does he serve and what does the dogma say?
Where does he come from and which experiences does he have?
How long has he been in Cormyr what can he still learn about Dragons and RDDs?

7) Sorry for the long list. This is not saying, your or anyones RP is bad. The people i played with as long as i am here, are all great players.
I just felt i should write this because it would be sad to miss RP or loose RP for unnecessary reasons.

I don't expect an answer or discussion. I don't want to fight with anyone here. Just please think about it and give RP a fair chance. That is all i would wish.

I'm done now. Just my 2 cents.

[Deleted]

Read a book with a paladin as a main protagonist?

[PhatDorf]

Before I start, I don't know Wurek super well. I know what I've read and seen, and I don't know -him-. It becomes very hard to judge someone or something when you don't understand their motives and thought processes. It doesn't make them wrong, but it doesn't make them right either. Forgotten Realms has some very clear lines on what counts as what in terms of alignment and actions. The intention of an action doesn't save it from being a crappy thing to do. I know from experience that a paladin can make a bunch of bad decisions under good intentions, and that can lead to them falling from grace

Regardless...!

Consider why the god picked YOU of all people to represent them in the world. If you're constantly doing a bad job of their creeds, the odds are that they made a bad decision in picking you. Beings with wisdom and intelligence beyond understanding, don't often make bad decisions, unless it's on a colossal scale and very significant.

I've played Dreshae for I think four years, and she sure as heck had rough patches, to this day some people don't really trust or like her, and that's totally fine. She does her job to the best of her ability, holds herself to high standards of what is important in her, and Torm's eyes, and does her very best to follow his dogma. She gets cynical, and disillusioned at times, but to me personally the core thing that makes up a paladin is the drive to keep improving and trying to make things better, and not giving up.
Paladins are as varied as any other class or race or people, Sunite paladins focus more on being cuddly teddybears (generally speaking) whereas Kelemvorites have a very serious and grim job that doesn't lend itself to being a social butterfly.

I believe Wurek is Tormish. So, the things Torm appreciates are Duty, Loyalty, and Obedience. It's up to you how that is done. How Wurek stays in Torm's good books.

I met Wurek, the other day in Eveningstar. He was rude, and it seemed to me OOCly that you just wanted to skip the RP to get to bashing orcs. My friend and I turned back, and let you go ahead. Stuff like that can breed bad perceptions of you, and cause more people to focus on what you're doing wrong, than right. That all being said - being an ass isn't unpaladiny, at all. Vel can be an ass. Dreshae can be an ass. You can bet that Edthin could be an ass. But there's a time, a place, and a reason for it. (and maybe I'm being too harsh, but I really like RP, and I don't run dungeons very often these days. We're different breeds of players.)

But, now, If I'm going to be blunt, i'm not surprised you're having this issue. You posted in DM Q&A before making the character asking how bad a paladin you can be, but still remain a paladin... That's sort of the wrong mindset to have if you wanted to be a successful and respected paladin down the road, without major work and changes put in. (Which is possible! )
( frc.proboards.com/thread/24212/dm-perfect-paladin )

While it's cool to argue that "if I'm doing it wrong the DM team will say something, get off my back", and in fairness, you're not totally wrong, and that should happen - ... they shouldn't HAVE to? It's a flimsy defense when we all know full well that the DM team isn't watching us 24/7 for every slip up, and for a paladin sometimes all it takes is 1 evil action to do an oopsie, and there you fell.

If you're playing the character with enough awareness of what they are doing, with a good enough knowledge on what is wrong and right for a paladin to be doing, you should be able to police yourself, and in general, taking more responsibility for their own PCs actions, rather than passing the buck on to a DM to come and confirm what you almost certainly knew was a dumb decision.
This is why in my humble lil view that paladins should be application based. No, not because Wurek specifically - But because it requires more of the player than most other classes. It requires responsibility, and people who shirk that ruin the setting for others. There ARE bad paladins I don't care to name currently, and they make Dreshae very unfulfilling to play as, when I consider how serious I took any mistakes she made, and how hard I worked to get back something which some people just don't seem to care about in the first place.

[Aoi]

Dec 9, 2016 3:02:31 GMT -5 Warlord said:

Read a book with a paladin as a main protagonist?

Good idea, brings me to another tip.

Read the "Book of exalted deeds". It's a DnD sourcebook about what it means to be good. It also offers some good explanations how to play good characters in general and great interpretations of the good alignments.
So it's also essential for the RP of paladins and other divine touched characters, as i find.

[Deleted]

I'd like to interject just one thing here. Not a comment on being a Paladin but a comment on some of the attitudes expressed here.

It's very simple.

"Let people have fun as long as it isn't at the expense of others."

As long as Wurek isn't actively interfering with others roleplay in a negative way (and to my knowledge he hasn't) then let him play how he wants and you play how you want and let the DMs decide if there is an issue.

I'm really tired of seeing players telling other players how to roleplay. If you don't like it, don't associate with it. Simple.

[Calliope]

I disagree with a lot of what I'm hearing about paladins in this thread XD.

Paladins do -not- have a vast range. Fact is they're limited to only -one- of the nine alignments, they're heavily restricted in regards to multi-classing, and they're completely bound by the dogma of their faith. Paladins don't have to be cookie-cutter characters, no, but they're actually in a very narrow range with regards to play-style options when compared to almost any other class.

Lawful good characters emphasize honor and compassion. They speak the truth and keep their word. They fight evil without mercy and protect the innocent without hesitation.

Paladins are held to the highest standards and IMO should never be rude and should never be.. "an ass"... It's completely unnecessary. Google defines rude as "offensively impolite or ill-mannered.
synonyms: ill-mannered, bad-mannered, impolite, discourteous, uncivil, ill-behaved, unmannerly..."
Paladins often have to do hard things that may offend others but they should -never- be impolite or ill-mannered about it.

A lawful good paladin is the epitome of righteousness. They should be honest, true, benevolent, virtuous, and should do good in all things. And If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, they should seek after it.

<3
-Calliope

[Aoi]

I don't see someone who doesn't want anyone else to have fun. We just want to keep our fun up as much as the player of Wurek wants for himself. I just see tips here or people telling their thoughts, or trying to help, doesn't mean he has to follow that. It is still his thing.

Everyone can have fun as long as others don't loose it.

Don't read something in the posts noone was written literally.

[appleseedy]

i remember chatting to a fellow (on another server) about why i thought he shouldn't run naked through town with weapons drawn. he told me if i wanted to RP that was fine he want stopping me... extreme example but yeah, he was preventing RP. He didn't agree and couldn't understand why it was an issue.

I like the idea that clerics and paladins need applications. Simply because their RP is so difficult. Having said that there not so we have to police ourselves... is that so much to ask?

For myself i'm very ware of the dogma of my deity and try to express it in my play. OK i do love a bit of mindless hack and slash.

[Razgriz]

I wish Divine Champion (CoT in FRC) was the base class and Paladin the prestige one, with application and meaningful RP to support taking the class. Those who demonstrate that they can be the most devout and honorable, amongst an already reduced list of devout and honorable faithful, should be the limited ones that are granted paladinhood. The main difference between Divine Champions and Paladins is not that one class has defensive feats and the other bonus martial ones, or that elves apparently suck as paladins. Making that change now would be probably unfair though and maybe even a moot point. To put it simply, it would not solve much.

The difference I believe is that a champion choses to serve, even if they are not exactly fit for the role. As for paladins, they are one step beyond champions. Paladins not only choose to serve, but they are -chosen- and trusted by their deities, and maybe even their entire faith and the allied ones to do the most good with the least amount of harm. Deviate but a little from what is expected, and you can be sure that someone somehwere will start to preceive your paladin's actions as questionable.

Beign a paladin should never be easy; it should take at least some degree of serious dedication to truly get part of it right. This is why I do not like playing paladins as alt characters or also playing more than one at the time, even if I tried some years ago. It just does not work for me and in a way, it can also be stressful when you know you are doing what you can, but niether the setting nor the characters seem to care or notice the effort. I have been there and probably most of the paladin players experienced that as well. Instead of simply disregarding not caring about it, some of us still try to this day to improve whatever needs to be improved about our paladin characters. Some do better than others of course, but even the smallest of actions is important.

Sometimes, these small actions are what truly matters. The details that few would care to do or even think about are the difference. Even if your paladin has saved the world from a fiendish invasion, he still would receive odd looks if he refused to help a random NPC who needs assistance with some task, even if it is a mundane one.

The moment a paladin considers himself or herself better, then this is when a lesson in humility is probably required. That is not to say tht paladins do not feel proud of what they do daily, but the way they go about it is to let their actions speak for them, instead of giving someone a list with their deeds to prove that they are worthy, and with the right to do what they please in the name of the gods.

I have tried to advocate for higher standards when it comes to paladins (mine included of course!), but what the DMs had to say about that matter was that FRC is open to a vast range of skill and styles, so a standard for paladins is not needed. They think that those paladins who make at least an effort, are the ones that will collect the rewards. By rewards I do not mean a glowing sword of holiness, a castle, experience or attention. The rewards of playing a truly good and lawful paladin that would be considred and example are elsewhere. I would say that beign allowed to play a paladin, without even needing to wait for level 10 is a reward on its own. It is up to the player of those paladins what to do with it. It is not about crossing over a list of things that your paladin does or does not so that he/she is considred a good one. After all these years, I think it is more about striving to accomplish more than it is asked or expected of you.

I know some stopped playing their paladin in part because it all seems to be "game over" (Not you, PhatDorf!). Well, turns out that it is not game over yet. Some would say that there nothing much more to do, but if there is not, then look for another impossible or very dificult goal for your paladin to achieve. If you cannot find such an objective, then perhaps take a break of the character and return with more energy later. Retiring is also another path if their story seems to be over. Still, always keep your paladins aiming for the approval of their deity and never take for granted that they already have it.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

[Syd's Blue Sky]

marredwolf

From my experience, the DM team is not going to concern itself with the RP quality of people with low RP quality. You consistently come off as rude, arrogant, selfish and flat out irrational on this forum with nearly every word you type.

When I was a DM I attempted to work with you heavily on exactly these issues you seem to like to bring up, but you threw it all back in my face PM after PM. When we spoke you leveled a litany of obtuse accusations at me as a person, me as a DM and me as a player. You went to great lengths to insult me for bending over backwards trying to help you.

I think you play one of the worst paladins in the history of FRC who would be made to fall in a heartbeat if anyone could be bothered to deal with the inevitable shitposting frenzy it would elicit. Threads like this just put on display exactly how irrelevant your paladin is and make it fairly clear that you don't need to fall for it to be obvious to all involved parties that you are doing it wrong.

Since you seem to be asking.

[hellscream123]

A note id like to make is that we're not talking about the simple d&d brand paladin. We're talking about paladins in the forgotten realms. A long running well established and documented world with its own rules and structures based upon d&d.
My suggestion for determining what such means to you.

Google forgotten realm paladin characters out of the lore. Or grab the books their in for a read as previously suggested! Because everying in FRC is based on the lore and strucutres presented in such things.

This has been a my two cents production. Pleasr hold hands as you tap dance so we can emjoy one anothers palm sweat.

[PhatDorf]

Paladins do -not- have a vast range. Fact is they're limited to only -one- of the nine alignments, they're heavily restricted in regards to multi-classing, and they're completely bound by the dogma of their faith. Paladins don't have to be cookie-cutter characters, no, but they're actually in a very narrow range with regards to play-style options when compared to almost any other class.

There are a lot of ways to roleplay a single alignment. I don't like D&D's alignment system that much because of this very reason. As it turns out, people are more complicated and have more sides than, what, 9 variants. Jesus Christ that would be a boring world to live in. Yes, they are heavily restricted, and those restrictions make a paladin more enjoyable to play imo, as with any character who has things they should not, and can not do. Not everyone being a superhero who doesn't give a toss. Flaws are fun! But I digress - Paladins can be roleplayed in a lot of ways. And that is why I listed examples from two almost polar opposite faiths. The Kelemvorites who are very grim and serious typically, versus the much more social and pleasant-to-be-around paladin of Sune. Love and Death. Pretty diferent types of paladin, bro. Paladins hold true to the core aspects of their class, they're honest, true, and should try and be an example for people to follow. They're the gods chosen warriors, who believe HOW something is done, is as important as WHY. Now, I don't really like repeating myself, hey, funny that I don't often join in these discussions. But tl;dr - yes there are many many ways to RP a paladins alignment, while sticking to their core essentials. And sometimes paladins have dogmas that conflict. If that isn't more than 1 way to play an alignment and class, wat?

Paladins are held to the highest standards and IMO should never be rude and should never be.. "an ass"... It's completely unnecessary. Google defines rude as "offensively impolite or ill-mannered.
synonyms: ill-mannered, bad-mannered, impolite, discourteous, uncivil, ill-behaved, unmannerly..."
Paladins often have to do hard things that may offend others but they should -never- be impolite or ill-mannered about it.

Google may define it like that, but I think of someones rear end when I say it.
Have you heard the saying "Lawful good doesn't mean lawful nice" that, in essence is what I was saying. Not "be an obnoxious pernicus, whee!" but that paladins have a job to do, and are very often faced with people who don't LIKE them doing it, paladins aren't always going to me mr.popular and on FRC which is pretty heavily chaotically leaning among the playerbase, it's sometimes even harder to make the unpopular decisions. Edthin was a straight shooter who wanted to complete his tasks, and didn't care to stop and argue with every single person in the world who disagreed with him, he argued with a lot of them, and he believed in what he was doing. He didn't start cussing and stomping his feet like a grumpy toddler. I think we have different ideas of what being an ass is. Dreshae has had to arrest people, and I oocly feel awful doing it. Even for little things - I sure define that as being an ass. But it was her JOB to be "that person", sometimes. A paladin has to be very critical, and let nothing slip by. The smallest crack in your defenses, a duty shirked, etc, and you've 'done it wrong.'
I know of multiple players who have had their paladins "oops" something, and have spent a few days, or longer, dealing with it. Even little things.
You could almost argue being a paladin makes you inherently fastidious.

While I say all of that, I always tried to have Dreshae be actually very friendly, and open for people to engage with... but she was an ass if you walked over her flowers outside the temple in your fullplate. (That means she told you off, over a little thing!)

[smacrasmacrasmacra]

Just ask yourself, "What Would Christopher Reeve's Superman Do?" Usually sorts any and all paladin code issues right there.

As a simple example, I've dropped out of school to take care of a poor invalid in my neighborhood on a 24/7 basis for a year and a half, pro-bono, and I'm nowhere nearly selfless and compassionate enough to consider myself a paladin. They're in the odd sense of having the hardest road but the simplest decision process, in that they already know they'll take the choice that is the best, regardless of how hard it is for them. Their difficulty lies in determining that choice given their situations. So...just do what Kal El from the Donner Superman films would do...can't go wrong.

[Deleted]

Dec 9, 2016 9:23:38 GMT -5 hellscream123 said:

A note id like to make is that we're not talking about the simple d&d brand paladin. We're talking about paladins in the forgotten realms. A long running well established and documented world with its own rules and structures based upon d&d.
My suggestion for determining what such means to you.

Google forgotten realm paladin characters out of the lore. Or grab the books their in for a read as previously suggested! Because everying in FRC is based on the lore and strucutres presented in such things.

This has been a my two cents production. Pleasr hold hands as you tap dance so we can emjoy one anothers palm sweat.

We might have to start a 52 page thread on how to read, however

[marredwolf]

Dec 9, 2016 3:25:54 GMT -5 PhatDorf said:

You posted in DM Q&A before making the character asking how bad a paladin you can be, but still remain a paladin... That's sort of the wrong mindset to have if you wanted to be a successful and respected paladin down the road

yes. the concept started before i made the character. i was looking to build a flawed paladin and to play one, and i did just that. with some DM or player advice. well didnt get much of that.


creasus?
dont know why you would think i was rude. in all honesty i thought i was intruding on your rp, which is why i made my interraction brief.


the two letters that i wrote were intended to create roleplay, not necessarily for me. i meant to cause IC conflict and bring out some real questions. it was not meant for anything else. it was just for kicks.

Syds:
you have apparently created a very distorted view of me. and that is what im trying to say here, underneath the issue, that there is trully an OOC hatred of me from a (former?)) DM, and quite some players as well. you yourself told me i was "chasing phantoms" in thinking people were out to get me. dude, you were one all along! its a little disturbing too, i mean...you were basically the only DM giving me the time of day, and i really appreciated that from you. why would i antagonize you? hell, you almost seemed like a friend. but now that your true feelings are known i can see both your faces. so...now its getting clearer. this is an OOC thing agaisnt me. in my current PMs this is a matter of contention. peeps dont agrree that this is OOC, but you just proved that for me. thanks.


Other outrageous acts commited by Wurek:

Walking around the Thayan enclave in disugise, DM Syds, whom I didnt know he would show up, asked me what a paladin was doing there. then another dm showed up? maybe it was still Syds. I went to Bane's shrine posing as a Banite, looking to find the main temple of Bane in the kingdom (as some rumors suggested) Wurek was asked by the priestess there to kneel and pray to Bane. Wurek did in fact kneel before a shrine to Bane, but kept his mind clear, not betray himself nor his god. That was under DM interraction and the altar struck Wurek with some kind of darkness.

Wurek once broke into a noble's house and tried to subdue the guard, whom may or may not have been killed. He robbed the whole place to make it look like ... a robbery. In fact he was looking for evidence reguarding the high hunt cult, which he did find thanks to DM Syds, he supervised that act, i can easily provide the PMs if you want. At that time Syds did not warn or deter me in any way. but since he was a DM i can only assume that was good roleplay (tho apparently now im the worst)

oh! also, Wurek frequently uses poison.

Mr. DM? has wurek lost his paladinhood?

[Syd's Blue Sky]

Yes, Mr. Quixote. He has fallen.

People aren't out to get you. They just don't want to deal with you because you're an ass.

I should know. I tried. You were.

[Fluffy the Mad]

Dec 9, 2016 12:16:36 GMT -5 marredwolf said:

[q
Other outrageous acts commited by Wurek:

Walking around the Thayan enclave in disugise, DM Syds, whom I didnt know he would show up, asked me what a paladin was doing there. then another dm showed up? maybe it was still Syds. I went to Bane's shrine posing as a Banite, looking to find the main temple of Bane in the kingdom (as some rumors suggested) Wurek was asked by the priestess there to kneel and pray to Bane. Wurek did in fact kneel before a shrine to Bane, but kept his mind clear, not betray himself nor his god. That was under DM interraction and the altar struck Wurek with some kind of darkness.

Wurek once broke into a noble's house and tried to subdue the guard, whom may or may not have been killed. He robbed the whole place to make it look like ... a robbery. In fact he was looking for evidence reguarding the high hunt cult, which he did find thanks to DM Syds, he supervised that act, i can easily provide the PMs if you want. At that time Syds did not warn or deter me in any way. but since he was a DM i can only assume that was good roleplay (tho apparently now im the worst)

oh! also, Wurek frequently uses poison.

Mr. DM? has wurek lost his paladinhood?

I was intending to stay out of this one, but you really just listed examples of why he 'should' fall. Paladins aren't morally loose. The ends do -not- justify the means. Committing crimes to prove other crimes is more a CG act than it is LG. (And not just things that are skirting bad laws- theft and murder are universally against paladin codes) Other paladins on the server have fallen for far less. It doesn't matter if you aren't caught in it, such acts are between a character and their deity.

[Fenix]

Dec 9, 2016 12:36:19 GMT -5 Fluffy the Mad said:

Dec 9, 2016 12:16:36 GMT -5 marredwolf said:

[q
Other outrageous acts commited by Wurek:

Walking around the Thayan enclave in disugise, DM Syds, whom I didnt know he would show up, asked me what a paladin was doing there. then another dm showed up? maybe it was still Syds. I went to Bane's shrine posing as a Banite, looking to find the main temple of Bane in the kingdom (as some rumors suggested) Wurek was asked by the priestess there to kneel and pray to Bane. Wurek did in fact kneel before a shrine to Bane, but kept his mind clear, not betray himself nor his god. That was under DM interraction and the altar struck Wurek with some kind of darkness.

Wurek once broke into a noble's house and tried to subdue the guard, whom may or may not have been killed. He robbed the whole place to make it look like ... a robbery. In fact he was looking for evidence reguarding the high hunt cult, which he did find thanks to DM Syds, he supervised that act, i can easily provide the PMs if you want. At that time Syds did not warn or deter me in any way. but since he was a DM i can only assume that was good roleplay (tho apparently now im the worst)

oh! also, Wurek frequently uses poison.

Mr. DM? has wurek lost his paladinhood?

I was intending to stay out of this one, but you really just listed examples of why he 'should' fall. Paladins aren't morally loose. The ends do -not- justify the means. Committing crimes to prove other crimes is more a CG act than it is LG. (And not just things that are skirting bad laws- theft and murder are universally against paladin codes) Other paladins on the server have fallen for far less. It doesn't matter if you aren't caught in it, such acts are between a character and their deity.

To couple that, just because a DM let you do it and walked you through it...does not in any way mean that it was an act of a Paladin. The DM's job is to watch and react with your Roleplay. Maybe Syds was at the time perhaps letting him perform all these acts in preparation to fall? Im sure your god would really think a great idea of murdering a noble's guard in his own home, robbing the manor for your own profit to prove evidence of Malar, and paying homage to the god of Tyranny and destruction.

In fact, Bane might love those, but...

[Fenix]

Dec 9, 2016 12:16:36 GMT -5 marredwolf said:

Dec 9, 2016 3:25:54 GMT -5 PhatDorf said:

You posted in DM Q&A before making the character asking how bad a paladin you can be, but still remain a paladin... That's sort of the wrong mindset to have if you wanted to be a successful and respected paladin down the road

yes. the concept started before i made the character. i was looking to build a flawed paladin and to play one, and i did just that. with some DM or player advice. well didnt get much of that.


creasus?
dont know why you would think i was rude. in all honesty i thought i was intruding on your rp, which is why i made my interraction brief.


the two letters that i wrote were intended to create roleplay, not necessarily for me. i meant to cause IC conflict and bring out some real questions. it was not meant for anything else. it was just for kicks.

Syds:
you have apparently created a very distorted view of me. and that is what im trying to say here, underneath the issue, that there is trully an OOC hatred of me from a (former?)) DM, and quite some players as well. you yourself told me i was "chasing phantoms" in thinking people were out to get me. dude, you were one all along! its a little disturbing too, i mean...you were basically the only DM giving me the time of day, and i really appreciated that from you. why would i antagonize you? hell, you almost seemed like a friend. but now that your true feelings are known i can see both your faces. so...now its getting clearer. this is an OOC thing agaisnt me. in my current PMs this is a matter of contention. peeps dont agrree that this is OOC, but you just proved that for me. thanks.


Other outrageous acts commited by Wurek:

Walking around the Thayan enclave in disugise, DM Syds, whom I didnt know he would show up, asked me what a paladin was doing there. then another dm showed up? maybe it was still Syds. I went to Bane's shrine posing as a Banite, looking to find the main temple of Bane in the kingdom (as some rumors suggested) Wurek was asked by the priestess there to kneel and pray to Bane. Wurek did in fact kneel before a shrine to Bane, but kept his mind clear, not betray himself nor his god. That was under DM interraction and the altar struck Wurek with some kind of darkness.

Wurek once broke into a noble's house and tried to subdue the guard, whom may or may not have been killed. He robbed the whole place to make it look like ... a robbery. In fact he was looking for evidence reguarding the high hunt cult, which he did find thanks to DM Syds, he supervised that act, i can easily provide the PMs if you want. At that time Syds did not warn or deter me in any way. but since he was a DM i can only assume that was good roleplay (tho apparently now im the worst)

oh! also, Wurek frequently uses poison.

Mr. DM? has wurek lost his paladinhood?

Also, and this is a rare occasion that never happens, I agree with Syds. You do come off as an ass IC and OOC. IC thats cool, whatever. Fenix is a jackass too. But you are actually one of the players I avoid. Because I recall rping with you, where Wurek will at times be some hyperintelligent being all the time, but then you act like you can't speak english if a DM shows up to call you out on something. A lot of people have pointed it out.

I recall Fenix making a joke at Wurek's expense, and you losing your *chickenwing* on me in tells for an hour and a half during and well after that roleplay ended and I stopped bothering to respond. Because he made a joke about paladins, like has been done for scores of actual paladins.

I posted in the thread you are now calling VK out on, six months ago, and recall you attacking me as a metagamer, a cheater, and attacking me personally in PMs and tells later on just because well, i didn't agree with you, or my character worked against yours.

Its possible to play a bad paladin. Look at Edthin Vidry. Waric is not a paladin. If you want your question answered, yes, you play probably one of the worst examples of a paladin i've seen played in all my years of roleplay across many settings and servers. While im not some exemplary roleplayer, and my character teeters on the edge of falling as a druid, because I play a bad druid, theres no question that Waric should fall as a paladin, and is not an example of anything a paladin is. Hell, until you posted I didn't even know he -was- one.

[Defunct Fiddlesticks]

I sent the following to a DM in September of 2015, I just went back through my messages to find it. I didn't know who ran the encounter but I am assuming that this wasn't shared or passed on to the dm that did.

Sept 22, 2015 10:18:38 GMT -5 dalihavidson said:

Hi there,

Wurek has found Henrik for help/guidance etc, I was told his encounter at the Banite shrine was DM run as was his subsequent mark. As no one is on right now I screenshotted Henrik appealing to Torm and the Triad in prayer alongside Wurek for guidance about this mark.



Leaving the reply/response to you as I can't obviously proceed or remove it unless I know what I'm dealing with an if I can.

regards,
Fiddles.

It's been over a year and I never got a reply.

Wurek at least did try to approach Torm.

Judging from this thread it's got worse since then. I didn't know what your plan for the character was? I assumed from our RP you wanted him to redeem himself and learn to be a good paladin but his behavior was really not LG and I gathered you wanted him to take a different path. That is the trouble with mixed signals, I guess.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

Since everything is being dragged out... and I know that a lotta people are actually interested in what exactly constitutes good conduct, LG, paladinsip, et cetera, I'll explain a few things. Marredwolf has waived his right to secrecy, it would appear, so the rest of it is my story to tell as the DM overseeing things.

Fluffy the Mad

Things are as he says with the robbery/murder.

In his defense the guard he killed was Evil, and the house he robbed belonged to an active member of the High Hunt Cult. Wurek was indeed acting on sound evidence that it was true before he took the gamble and entered the building, and after the act he did indeed emerge with another piece of very heavy evidence of misdeeds.

Killing an evil being isn't an evil act. He could very well have made a mistake and killed a Neutral or Good being with the best of intentions, thereby instantly falling. This, however, did not seem to be the case. I may have allowed him to use Detect Evil? I don't really remember. I remember that I meant to but don't seem to remember it coming to that. I think it was just a standard Evil NPC that spawns where it went down?

Marred is also exactly spot on with how he describes everything playing out in the enclave (Two DMs, btw). The result of the prayer in the shrine of Bane was a moderate Evil shift, as he described. The murder of the guard was entirely justified (if a gamble). The robbery was justified.

To the general point, here, there's a difference between "good RP" and "Good RP". Proper role-play of a paladin can indeed lead to a fall. Sometimes this is the best RP. Alternatively, RP of Good, capital G, the Alignment, on certain PCs can be as problematic as a paladin committing a deed of Evil (A CN or LN druid, for instance). The Alignment of the Role Play has no bearing on the quality of the Role Play.

What took place in the murder/robbery was good RP, necessarily not Good RP. It certainly wasn't Evil or Neutral. It was a paladin doing his job fighting against organized Evil protected by the laws of a land. I assure all interested parties it was handled very thoughtfully on my end from start to finish.

Sadly, due to a lack of play time overlap the story proved very difficult to move forward. I thought it was a delicious idea from the very beginning (stll do) with a great deal of potential. I regret not being able to see it through. It was deeply regrettable that it came to the OOC bickering that it did, because up until that point things had, as explained by VK and others here, I believe (I skimmed), stayed IC. I was very carefully monitoring the situation to see that it did, and I had/have no doubt whatsoever that it had indeed been IC the entire time until it was made OOC by marredwolf himself.

Defunct Fiddlesticks Unfortunately I wasn't the DM who got that PM. I actually replied/reply to PMs people sent/send me.

Fenix Cheers to that. Edthin is one of my favorite paladins ever for exactly the fact he was such a dubious and conflicted person but managed to ride that line exceptionally well from what I saw.

---

One point here is that FRC can be a confusing and frustrating experience. Communication is all too often a rare commodity. People are quick (often with legitimate reasoning) to point fingers without the full set of facts, and it can sometimes lead to misunderstandings. It's not generally policy to drag the details of things out into the light of day as has been done here, but this could prove cathartic. I'm only doing it now because marredwolf already has, and I think it might help people understand the situation to shed some light on the inner working of a small series of events.

I think revealing the inner workings is something that should be done more often for the sake of transparency. Sort of like making public the courtroom transcripts or tax records. Plenty of players don't really know what the hell goes on behind the scenes, and are understandably confused about the things that do/don't happen. It's normal for people to feel this way. In my opinion the DM Team generally does not place nearly enough value on transparency, preferring the veil of secrecy. It's often a very bad thing, and can create a lot of mystery and confusion, a feeling of Us versus Them, where the players are the sheep and the DMs the infallible godlike shepherds. It's not healthy for a community that already lacks the personal touch, by being strictly based on text and digital communication, to not only not attempt to make known the human element behind the machine, but to actively obscure it with ignored PMs and vague statements as the staff here very often does.

My two cents.




Everyone has been frustrated about things here at one time or another, likely very often rightly so. It's how these frustrations are handled that determines the value of the individual player to the community.

[Defunct Fiddlesticks]

Yep, I would have sent it to you if I had known it was you.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

Dec 9, 2016 13:48:16 GMT -5 Defunct Fiddlesticks said:

Yep, I would have sent it to you if I had known it was you.

Seems to be somewhat common! DM-DM communication is probably even worse than the DM-Player communication!

In further breaking news, the sky is blue.