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Post by DOT on Aug 20, 2015 14:58:11 GMT -5
OR . . . whatever other idea of reward we can think of. Something that might be really neat, but won't necessarily fit every character, would be to have a random loot item connected to that character's history created and added to the loot tables. These could be mainly flavor items and "sellables" but potentially also flavorful equipment (of reasonable power). That actually sounds really really neat. 1 because its pervasive in frc, 2 its pretty easy to implement. |
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Post by iangallowglas on Aug 20, 2015 16:11:38 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings about this. Some of me says cool, but part of me says not so cool.
My concern is this: If this occurs, it should only be for actively played characters. I wouldn't want characters that haven't been played for years, coming out of the vault to be played for 6 months, and then getting their names permanently memorialized. I feel that only current RP should be considered for the memorials and a character should need to be played actively for at least a year to be considered for memorialization.
I also wonder who (specifically is this a DM team vote, or does an individual DM make this decision?) and what (DM team vote, poll of the masses?) RP determines a memorial is warranted. If this did occur, I think their should be a DM application process to make sure the DM team as a whole reviews the RP involved. I also think a thread should be made by the DM team detailing what RP was done to warrant the memorialization for the character. I think the thread would be part of the memorialization process. I think for the notorious RP, this would be easier to accomplish, since the character would likely be executed as a requirement, but for the good characters, this would be more difficult.
I will always bring up the the fact that at various times on FRC, we've had periods of favoritism by DMs for certain players. At times it was rampant even. I think that has mostly gone by the wayside now, but I think we would be foolish in saying that it doesn't occur at all anymore. I honestly don't know how you implement this without the perception of some kind of bias.
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Post by iangallowglas on Aug 20, 2015 16:18:36 GMT -5
The "become a permanent mini-boss" idea is a marvelous alternative for a more evil-inclined character whose only legacy they want continued on FRC is one of being the villain. Perhaps a mass murderer who is executed wants their vengeful spirit to haunt the place of their death or capture, and act as a villainous NPC/enemy henceforth? This is similar to the "be made an NPC" idea, but more centered towards villainous characters, and I love it. Or good ones who could appear as ghosts who help the living adventurers. For example, the prominent fallen Hullack Wardens could get an NPC Hullack Elven Ghost with a special description and the name of the character it is supposed to represent. I'm pretty sure a couple characters already have permanent markers. There is a memorial for a warden in the Hullack elf settlement, and for a bad guy near the Snowfalcon shop. Not that this isn't a cool idea. I'd like to see Seamus evntually turned into a Brass Dragon NPC on the server. oooo or maybe a ghost Brass Dragon  |
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Post by Syd's Blue Sky on Aug 20, 2015 16:56:01 GMT -5
~~IF~~ permadeath was a real issue, I think it might be cool for the bad guys to have a sort of "Wall of infamy" which listed out all the things they got away with before they were caught and killed. Good upstanding citizens would pass and shake their head at the record which elevates the worst to the worst in infamy, but bad guys would reference it as street cred. "Ya'll 'member that Aris guy? Look at all 'e did before 'day finally got 'em. That guy was the /real deal/ dawg" ...or something. You might get more people looking to play street thugs instead of of the many, many evil masterminds we already got. Legit laughed out loud at this.  That's a pretty good idea for the more infamous inclined that would perma. That would fall under getting a tombstone/monument/plaque reward I would think. I heard that Aris guy was pretty fond of The James burgers. Makes him a decent fellow in my book. |
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Post by Syd's Blue Sky on Aug 20, 2015 17:01:53 GMT -5
Something that might be really neat, but won't necessarily fit every character, would be to have a random loot item connected to that character's history created and added to the loot tables. These could be mainly flavor items and "sellables" but potentially also flavorful equipment (of reasonable power). That actually sounds really really neat. 1 because its pervasive in frc, 2 its pretty easy to implement. This is something that's been kicking around from way back. I even remember some builder/DM asking for people to submit ideas? I could be remembering wrong, and forum minigame is hard... It's something we can do DM side. We can recreate an item and drop it into the loot distribution tables for, say... the duration of a single reset. It could represent a single crate of these items being commissioned by blah blah blah because some famous adventurer used it. Crate gets jacked in transit by bandits and distributed through the black market, landing in... the stonelands! It's the same essential backstory that like one in every five items already has, just with FRC names and not random NwN/FR names. |
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Post by Southpaw on Aug 20, 2015 18:56:39 GMT -5
Something that might be really neat, but won't necessarily fit every character, would be to have a random loot item connected to that character's history created and added to the loot tables. These could be mainly flavor items and "sellables" but potentially also flavorful equipment (of reasonable power). Oh oh! I see what you're saying. Like if I were to permadeath Mynian one of the loot drops added could be "Copperhand's Custom Clothing". It would be cloth armor, maybe with a +1 to persuade. Would this idea stand separate from the "get a tombstone, etc." reward? Maybe so because it would be very different from a placable being added? Or among the possible books people find in loot with various stories, there could be books that tell the stories of significant PC's that have passed on. |
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Aug 21, 2015 13:08:11 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings about this. Some of me says cool, but part of me says not so cool. My concern is this: If this occurs, it should only be for actively played characters. I wouldn't want characters that haven't been played for years, coming out of the vault to be played for 6 months, and then getting their names permanently memorialized. I feel that only current RP should be considered for the memorials and a character should need to be played actively for at least a year to be considered for memorialization. I also wonder who (specifically is this a DM team vote, or does an individual DM make this decision?) and what (DM team vote, poll of the masses?) RP determines a memorial is warranted. If this did occur, I think their should be a DM application process to make sure the DM team as a whole reviews the RP involved. I also think a thread should be made by the DM team detailing what RP was done to warrant the memorialization for the character. I think the thread would be part of the memorialization process. I think for the notorious RP, this would be easier to accomplish, since the character would likely be executed as a requirement, but for the good characters, this would be more difficult. I will always bring up the the fact that at various times on FRC, we've had periods of favoritism by DMs for certain players. At times it was rampant even. I think that has mostly gone by the wayside now, but I think we would be foolish in saying that it doesn't occur at all anymore. I honestly don't know how you implement this without the perception of some kind of bias. To these first two stipulations we can always add that the character needs to have been played on a constant and consistent basis over a certain amount of time (I'm talking a year or more). Emphasize that substantial roleplay needs to happen and that the decision will not be made by just one DM. I don't see this as only one DM making the call, especially if the reward they want is to have something placed in the mod. That would be something the crew would have to review. They would have to look at things like how much of an impact has the character had on the player base and the roleplay. Is the character generally known by other PCs? Does this character's name get mentioned even when they are not online? What roleplay lead up to this character's moment of death and is it appropriate to flag it as a Permadeath Potential? I'd say avoid any sort of application process because sometimes the opportunity to permadeath can't be as pre-meditated. Sometimes the opportunity is going to come up strictly out of the blue. By then the crew is going to be looking at the situation anyway and making a decision. As the decision can't be made right away, all the player has to do at the moment of death is keep the character in the fugue until the crew can respond with it's decision. To add, the death can't just be ... "Oh, I died to these orcs because I was in this dungeon on my own so I'm going to contact a DM and say I'm permadeathing here." or "My character has been jailed six times for pickpocketing so I'll have him commit murder this last time and ask for a Permadeath perk." or "I haven't played this character in ages. Guess I should just kill them off and get a perk from it. No body knows who she is anyway." Like I said, it needs to be substantial. It should be more ... "I got my final revenge on that damn cleric and his woman. Though I got caught I can go to my execution with the knowledge that I've instilled fear into them and their friends. I've had the last laugh and my god will be pleased." OR "If someone doesn't stand here and give the dwarf time to collapse this tunnel then the Hullack and even beyond will be beset by this Drow invasion. I will do it. I will stand here and defend that which I hold dear, even if it means my life. Helm, give me strength!" OR "I knew knowing this information was going to be the death of me. At least I passed it on to the people that needed to know. Eveningstar will be saved from the shadows that plague it. Sorry, friends, I can go to my death satisfied with this. When you find my body at the bottom of this ravine with the dagger in my back, you'll know why." Again, substantial, and worthy of a perk by making death more meaningful. |
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Post by TheRedMage on Aug 23, 2015 10:11:45 GMT -5
I don't really understand or have seen before permadeath being rewarded or compensated like this. Generally a dm or player chooses to permadeath a character, because that characters story finished or came to an unfortunate end. It's just responsible story telling and role play to know when and how to accept consequences and permadeath. It should be rare, but it should always be a possibility.
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Post by Extropy on Aug 24, 2015 0:32:35 GMT -5
<obligatory perma death rule reference>The server doesn't force perma death as the rules are written. Rules can change, but I doubt that one will. All comments below are my views not a ruling by the team.</>
I agree that low levels are formative times & wouldn't want to see someone start a new character in the 'teens'. Six is probably a good point, but some older players who haven't played the new-ish 1-6 dungeons might not mind a few days of doing that anyway. And it's not that substantial of thing to start at 6 right? A higher level character could be a guest character ... but we give this out anyway if one is needed for a quest, you don't need to perma death someone to get one.
I like the idea of loot that references a dead/retired character - this has the potential to add quite a bit of flavor as long as it is actually rare to find. We should probably have more loot that references past events (silver shields/etc) to get people to talk about them ..
Starting with some unique item is an interesting idea. The item guidelines are pretty firm, so it couldn't be better than what other characters could get anyway ... but getting it at a low level would be different. It has the potential to mess up balance and make it way to easy to start, depending on the item. More likely is an item with history and interesting unique effects that can be upgraded as time goes along.
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Post by ladyphoenix on Aug 24, 2015 7:54:53 GMT -5
Lots of arguments but call me a cynic but this is what bothers me.
Cyricist PVP dies, makes bane pvp. Later he dies and gets new character for mask pvp and then he dies and we get a new cyricist pvp.
There are players that have effectively just retired one character to make a new character that is all about PVP because because they have history and standing punishments against their character (life time bane from GG), called out as evil cyricist if seen in town without disguise.....
This just seems like increasing the bad.
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Post by FORSETIS on Aug 24, 2015 11:03:57 GMT -5
Lots of arguments but call me a cynic but this is what bothers me. Cyricist PVP dies, makes bane pvp. Later he dies and gets new character for mask pvp and then he dies and we get a new cyricist pvp. If someone makes a character for mask "all about pvp" then they probably dont know alot about the game. And we have another problem on our hands. |
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Aug 24, 2015 11:09:24 GMT -5
I don't really understand or have seen before permadeath being rewarded or compensated like this. Generally a dm or player chooses to permadeath a character, because that characters story finished or came to an unfortunate end. It's just responsible story telling and role play to know when and how to accept consequences and permadeath. It should be rare, but it should always be a possibility. As DM Extropy had pointed out, DMs are not allowed to tell a player to permadeath their character. Only the player has that choice. But here's the thing: In the 10+ year history of FRC I believe we have had all of 1 solid permadeath happen. Fairly certain there have been others that went with little fanfair, but considering the sheer number of characters we've had played here there should have been far more moments of this happening. And even some of those who have said they've decided to permadeath their characters have gone back on that choice and accessed the character again because it still sits in their vault. They flim flam and degrade any of the roleplay that's happened just by returning. It ends up being irresponsible storytelling. As for rewards, when a character permadeaths, how is a DM or crew supposed to give kudos to that aside from leaving a post on the forums? You can't give the player RP XP because what would be the point of that for a dead character? Sure, if it's all done responsibly then a good deal of RP should come of it. That's great, that's fantastic, but how does the player who made the decision feel any sort of satisfaction from it? If they're that good of a roleplayer who simply wants to tell a good story and nothing else, then great, but not all are like that. By offering this Permadeath Potential we open up a few other doorways and hopefully resolve one particular issue that I'll mention in a moment . . . Lots of arguments but call me a cynic but this is what bothers me. Cyricist PVP dies, makes bane pvp. Later he dies and gets new character for mask pvp and then he dies and we get a new cyricist pvp. There are players that have effectively just retired one character to make a new character that is all about PVP because because they have history and standing punishments against their character (life time bane from GG), called out as evil cyricist if seen in town without disguise..... This just seems like increasing the bad. You are being a cynic. One, you're assuming that the DM crew is going to allow someone to lather, rinse, repeat like that. As I've stated multiple times now, the death needs to have some sort of meaning. There has to be substantial roleplay backing the choice to permadeath. Please read that again, substantial. They will not just be able to decide to kill off their PC during a PvP encounter just because they want to make a new one. Two, part of this idea behind this Permadeath Potential is to give a sense of resolution for the Character vs. Character (PvP) circle jerk. There are multiple threads right now that keep pointing out that IC criminal punishments are ineffective and ineffectual, giving those on the "good guys" side of the fence a sense of dissatisfaction both IC and OOC. By allowing those on the "bad guys" side to permadeath their character you get the one thing that's being begged for. Resolution. The big bad evil PC that's been giving the goodies trouble is GONE. They are no more and everyone involved can RP that death happening. There will be no "return". The baddie's buddies are not going to find their body or some remains somewhere to resurrect them. The evil is dead and the goodies can either crow about it or say they've learned something from it while the baddies sulk their sorrows in skull goblets filled with blood or plan to find a way to fill in the new power void. This isn't an ultimate solution to the issue, but it's part of the way to solve some of the issue. And who knows? Maybe the player of that follower of Cyric that permadeaths creates a character completely opposite and ends up playing one of the most stalwart defenders of the realms. Question is, would you roleplay with them? |
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Post by Grozer on Aug 24, 2015 11:29:22 GMT -5
Lots of arguments but call me a cynic but this is what bothers me. Cyricist PVP dies, makes bane pvp. Later he dies and gets new character for mask pvp and then he dies and we get a new cyricist pvp. There are players that have effectively just retired one character to make a new character that is all about PVP because because they have history and standing punishments against their character (life time bane from GG), called out as evil cyricist if seen in town without disguise..... This just seems like increasing the bad. Oh you mean like the number of players that continue roll up paladin after paladin using different names and maybe a different god and then continue to hunt evil? Apologies to the DM team for my aggressive, sarcasm but hey it gets a little old when evil PCs constantly get assumed to be bad players as well. |
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Post by ladyphoenix on Aug 24, 2015 12:00:32 GMT -5
Multiple paladins over and over is as bad as multiple pvp killers but I don't know any of the former off hand (alts of the paladins I know are far from paladin) but I know several of the second sort. (I proudly pvp, I will continue to pvp, you can't stop me from PVP, rinse and repeat).
I know that of my characters, I have 1 LG (champion of Torm), 1 ng (Mystran farm girl) and 3 cg (robin hood vigilante mentality, thumb in nose of the LEs for 1, wizard for second and archer for 3rd. Archer has mostly just done GG quests to level 5, never really rped her and not sure of a personality for her which is why she hasn't been played in about a year). Rinse and repeat is rarely fun to me. Then again, PVP is not fun to me.
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Post by FORSETIS on Aug 24, 2015 13:10:57 GMT -5
3 cg (robin hood vigilante mentality, thumb in nose of the LEs. Then again, PVP is not fun to me. These two sentences confuse me. |
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Post by Southpaw on Aug 24, 2015 13:29:45 GMT -5
To the concerns about one player "knowing too much" about what's going on, the idea here is that what ever is done would be a reward for good role playing. It's not meant to be a cash-in for reaching X amount of gold and/or XP. You'd have to impress people with what a good player you are that contributes to the fun and excitement of the game for other people. I don't see too many people who metagame at the expense of others reaching that mark. If anything, anyone who's shooting for what ever rewards would be handed out should be deterred from doing those things by the prospect of being rewarded for playing well.
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Post by Grozer on Aug 24, 2015 13:41:29 GMT -5
...3 cg (robin hood vigilante mentality, thumb in nose of the LEs for 1, wizard for second and archer for 3rd. Archer has mostly just done GG quests to level 5, never really rped her and not sure of a personality for her which is why she hasn't been played in about a year). Rinse and repeat is rarely fun to me. Then again, PVP is not fun to me. Robin Hood vigilantes and not enjoying PvP do not go well together. My advise is if you don't like PvP and prefer to avoid it then you might want to avoid instigating by hunting, investigating or instigating evil PCs/NPCs in any format. Probably a lot easier to avoid situations you dislike in that way. |
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Post by ... on Aug 24, 2015 14:37:28 GMT -5
Multiple paladins over and over is as bad as multiple pvp killers but I don't know any of the former off hand (alts of the paladins I know are far from paladin) but I know several of the second sort. (I proudly pvp, I will continue to pvp, you can't stop me from PVP, rinse and repeat). I know that of my characters, I have 1 LG (champion of Torm), 1 ng (Mystran farm girl) and 3 cg (robin hood vigilante mentality, thumb in nose of the LEs for 1, wizard for second and archer for 3rd. Archer has mostly just done GG quests to level 5, never really rped her and not sure of a personality for her which is why she hasn't been played in about a year). Rinse and repeat is rarely fun to me. Then again, PVP is not fun to me. Tsh. One CE Cyricist. One TN Gnome Wizardess. One LN Dwarven Defender. One LN Champion of Red Knight. One NG Hin of Sheela. One LG Paladin of Lathander. That's not counting alts below lvl 10 and other server characters though. <3 |
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Aug 24, 2015 15:16:01 GMT -5
Before we turn this into a "who's got more alts" competition let me ask this instead:
How many people here have alts above level 15?
My thought is that a level 10 requirement might be too low to allow to take a Permadeath Potential. What if we switch it up that the lowest a PC can be is level 15?
At 15 you're more established as a character, you've been around the block a little bit, you've got a sense of the character. You've probably made some connections so your character being dead is going to matter to more than just a few.
. . . or do we push it all the way up and say you have to be level 20?
My hesitation with this is that you have some well established PCs who aren't level 20 who -- in a roleplay sense -- should easily qualify for a perk and could come to the end of their roleplay life way earlier.
In hindsight 10 seems to soon so . . . 15? 20?
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Post by Hellwalker on Aug 24, 2015 15:20:01 GMT -5
I don't really understand or have seen before permadeath being rewarded or compensated like this. Generally a dm or player chooses to permadeath a character, because that characters story finished or came to an unfortunate end. It's just responsible story telling and role play to know when and how to accept consequences and permadeath. It should be rare, but it should always be a possibility. As DM Extropy had pointed out, DMs are not allowed to tell a player to permadeath their character. Only the player has that choice. But here's the thing: In the 10+ year history of FRC I believe we have had all of 1 solid permadeath happen. Fairly certain there have been others that went with little fanfair, but considering the sheer number of characters we've had played here there should have been far more moments of this happening. And even some of those who have said they've decided to permadeath their characters have gone back on that choice and accessed the character again because it still sits in their vault. They flim flam and degrade any of the roleplay that's happened just by returning. It ends up being irresponsible storytelling. As for rewards, when a character permadeaths, how is a DM or crew supposed to give kudos to that aside from leaving a post on the forums? You can't give the player RP XP because what would be the point of that for a dead character? Sure, if it's all done responsibly then a good deal of RP should come of it. That's great, that's fantastic, but how does the player who made the decision feel any sort of satisfaction from it? If they're that good of a roleplayer who simply wants to tell a good story and nothing else, then great, but not all are like that. By offering this Permadeath Potential we open up a few other doorways and hopefully resolve one particular issue that I'll mention in a moment . . . Solid points that mirror my own thoughts on the matter. I've a few things to add: The likely reason permadeath has never truly been "a thing" on FRC is due to the community policy that has sprung up, largely due to the server rule stating no one but the player has the right to permakill his/her character, no matter what happens IC or OOC. The effect, as it stands today, is that permadeath is nearly taboo, or at the very least nearly unheard of; it doesn't happen here and it shouldn't happen here, because it never has and people have the freedom to choose for themselves what to do with their own character, and that is the server policy. All of this is fine, mind you, and a lot of people feel it's for the best, but my point, if you zoom out and look at this from a larger perspective, is that a deep-seated behavior found in the community of a game (the game in this case being FRC, not NWN at large as FRC differs in countless fundamental ways) can almost always be traced back to a design philosophy or decision by the developer(s) of the game. In many ways, you get the kind of community that the game's mechanics (in this example primarily the server rules) encourage - especially over longer periods of time, as the types of players who enjoy the established mechanics stick around and influence others while players who dislike the way things are done gradually diminish. and FRC, for better or worse, has never encouraged permadeath as a noble ideal of roleplay that should be encouraged or rewarded for the sake of world & plot continuity. I've already discussed in a previous post what I believe implementing this system, or feature if you will, could do for FRC, and above all, roleplay on FRC. The thing is... the server policy, and indeed the underlying design philosophy that made permadeath (or the lack thereof) what it is today to this community need not be abolished to implement this feature; we'd merely be "course correcting" to steer away from the perceived negative behavior the community has noticed as a whole. For the same reason I've mentioned above however, I would desperately try to avoid strictly OOC rewards for such a system in favor of IC rewards that primarily offer roleplay value, because - again - you get the kind of behavior you encourage through the game's systems, and the goal is to encourage roleplay, isn't it? Offering a reward such as "free levelup to 6 on your next character", while certainly encouraging the behavior that solves the negative consequences of the "freedom of choice" towards permadeath (by giving incentive for players to permakill their characters after significant story deaths), also encourages players who simply want to level and advance their character mechanically as quickly and/or efficiently as possible (powergamers would be the controversial term for it). It wouldn't be the end of the world to implement such a reward option, but there are risks, however small or miniscule-seeming, to consider. This ended up being a bit more rambling than I first intended, and I'm a little bit too tired to think clearly at the moment, but hopefully the points come through regardless. If you only take away one thing from all this however, it ought to be this: You get the kind of community and behavior that your game's mechanics encourage and support. |
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Aug 24, 2015 15:37:45 GMT -5
BTW what about faithess? Should they all be considered as permadeath chars, as there is no deity to bring them back to life? Or do i get it wrong? Yeah, you kind of got that wrong. Dead will be dead regardless if they call to a god or not. Permadeath is permanent. The only thing that will effect is where their soul will end up in the afterlife. The faithless . . . *shivers* yeah, not going to talk about that. Of course heroes won't always die heroically. The one permadeath I can mention, an elf named Vind, died on his own to drow blades. There was no great battle, he didn't sacrifice himself in a heroic manner. The drow just got the better of him and he died his last death to them. The impact that death had, however, resonated through the entire In Character community. Vind was a well established character and PCs reacted in a myriad of ways, from celebratory all the way to heartrending. Not certain what you mean by this? Promote what exactly? It wouldn't be a popular idea, no. Forcing a player to play an alignment they might not want to isn't fair . . . not to mention, what if the PC is True Neutral? What is the opposite of that? So there's already a problem with that idea. |
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Aug 24, 2015 16:02:10 GMT -5
As DM Extropy had pointed out, DMs are not allowed to tell a player to permadeath their character. Only the player has that choice. But here's the thing: In the 10+ year history of FRC I believe we have had all of 1 solid permadeath happen. Fairly certain there have been others that went with little fanfair, but considering the sheer number of characters we've had played here there should have been far more moments of this happening. And even some of those who have said they've decided to permadeath their characters have gone back on that choice and accessed the character again because it still sits in their vault. They flim flam and degrade any of the roleplay that's happened just by returning. It ends up being irresponsible storytelling. As for rewards, when a character permadeaths, how is a DM or crew supposed to give kudos to that aside from leaving a post on the forums? You can't give the player RP XP because what would be the point of that for a dead character? Sure, if it's all done responsibly then a good deal of RP should come of it. That's great, that's fantastic, but how does the player who made the decision feel any sort of satisfaction from it? If they're that good of a roleplayer who simply wants to tell a good story and nothing else, then great, but not all are like that. By offering this Permadeath Potential we open up a few other doorways and hopefully resolve one particular issue that I'll mention in a moment . . . Solid points that mirror my own thoughts on the matter. I've a few things to add: The likely reason permadeath has never truly been "a thing" on FRC is due to the community policy that has sprung up, largely due to the server rule stating no one but the player has the right to permakill his/her character, no matter what happens IC or OOC. The effect, as it stands today, is that permadeath is nearly taboo, or at the very least nearly unheard of; it doesn't happen here and it shouldn't happen here, because it never has and people have the freedom to choose for themselves what to do with their own character, and that is the server policy. All of this is fine, mind you, and a lot of people feel it's for the best, but my point, if you zoom out and look at this from a larger perspective, is that a deep-seated behavior found in the community of a game (the game in this case being FRC, not NWN at large as FRC differs in countless fundamental ways) can almost always be traced back to a design philosophy or decision by the developer(s) of the game. In many ways, you get the kind of community that the game's mechanics (in this example primarily the server rules) encourage - especially over longer periods of time, as the types of players who enjoy the established mechanics stick around and influence others while players who dislike the way things are done gradually diminish. and FRC, for better or worse, has never encouraged permadeath as a noble ideal of roleplay that should be encouraged or rewarded for the sake of world & plot continuity. I've already discussed in a previous post what I believe implementing this system, or feature if you will, could do for FRC, and above all, roleplay on FRC. The thing is... the server policy, and indeed the underlying design philosophy that made permadeath (or the lack thereof) what it is today to this community need not be abolished to implement this feature; we'd merely be "course correcting" to steer away from the perceived negative behavior the community has noticed as a whole. For the same reason I've mentioned above however, I would desperately try to avoid strictly OOC rewards for such a system in favor of IC rewards that primarily offer roleplay value, because - again - you get the kind of behavior you encourage through the game's systems, and the goal is to encourage roleplay, isn't it? Offering a reward such as "free levelup to 6 on your next character", while certainly encouraging the behavior that solves the negative consequences of the "freedom of choice" towards permadeath (by giving incentive for players to permakill their characters after significant story deaths), also encourages players who simply want to level and advance their character mechanically as quickly and/or efficiently as possible (powergamers would be the controversial term for it). It wouldn't be the end of the world to implement such a reward option, but there are risks, however small or miniscule-seeming, to consider. This ended up being a bit more rambling than I first intended, and I'm a little bit too tired to think clearly at the moment, but hopefully the points come through regardless. If you only take away one thing from all this however, it ought to be this: You get the kind of community and behavior that your game's mechanics encourage and support.The last line, right there. That's it right there. I do also like the term "feature" in regards to this. It's not a ruling, it's not changing the current way things are worded, it's just adding something that can be supportive of the roleplay that goes on and tries to encourage a particular mentality. You are absolutely right on there being a stigma about permadeath on FRC. It's unfortunate, but the rule had to be made due to the rather ugly mentality a few players had on trying to force people to permadeath. It hasn't changed since then and shouldn't be changed. It seems that the main concern here does stem from a person being able to create a new character that's leveled up or has an uncommon item right out the gate. What if we strike that off as a perk. The player is likely going to make a new character anyway or just play one of their alts so maybe it's a moot reward. |
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Post by Razgriz on Aug 24, 2015 17:47:11 GMT -5
Before we turn this into a "who's got more alts" competition let me ask this instead: How many people here have alts above level 15? My thought is that a level 10 requirement might be too low to allow to take a Permadeath Potential. What if we switch it up that the lowest a PC can be is level 15? At 15 you're more established as a character, you've been around the block a little bit, you've got a sense of the character. You've probably made some connections so your character being dead is going to matter to more than just a few. . . . or do we push it all the way up and say you have to be level 20? My hesitation with this is that you have some well established PCs who aren't level 20 who -- in a roleplay sense -- should easily qualify for a perk and could come to the end of their roleplay life way earlier. In hindsight 10 seems to soon so . . . 15? 20? Some level 10 alts and one of level 14, so nope haha. But I think even lower levels should be allowed to recieve these RP perks of permadeath. Sometimes it is not about the level, or the time spent with the character, but it is about how that character went down and what meaningful effect it had on the module and the other characters. Eeven the GG vols deserve this reward. For example, it would be cool to see how Callen reacts when one(or more) did not survive a muster that went wrong. |
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Post by Lady Frost on Aug 24, 2015 18:18:44 GMT -5
The point, I think, was more intended to be focused on "longterm" and "RP powerful" PC's being willing to accept permadeath as a punishment for actions. Give them incentive to take their loss and start new. Killing off your level 4 that you've been playing for a month (even if it is an epic death) hardly fits either. Vind for example, didn't literally die an epic death; however, the tale and memory of it is easily one of the most remembered and RP impactful of the server (at least for the PC's that were around then).
I don't want to say these lower level deaths aren't important, but the point is to get the people that have been playing their PC's for years to be willing to let go. I know, for me, it would be a very hard thing to kill off Zodika. I've spent almost 8 years creating this story, and the OOC thought of it all being done is hard to swallow. There is no way I'm spending 8 more years building a story from scratch. For me, I'd want some consideration towards how my new PC can jump into my current storyline. An heir that slowly inherits Zodika's things, or something like that. I'm not just going to walk away from millions of gold in assets, the memories of her DM items, a guild, years of RP, and whatever else, to start at zero.
I think every player is different. I have a huge story that I don't want to give up. For me, I'd want to be able to keep going inside my story. For someone else, they want to completely start new with a different story. I think the rewards have to be open to interpretation from character to character and between DM's and Players on a case by case basis. Setting specific rules and parameters is going to be very hard as there will always be some exception that is deemed appropriate.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Aug 25, 2015 11:01:53 GMT -5
Not certain what you mean by this? Promote what exactly? Well, what makes hero a hero? - A deed. If a farmer Joe become an adventurer, then got reputation among other adventurers by creating maps for them, let's say and well, helped Nancy with protecting her farm few times, he's a hero, but for that closed circle of people. There's nothing for bards to create ballads of. About killing the thousands of enemies and dragons in a who-know-where dungeon, commoners would be: alright! *golf clap* But we didn't ask you for it and the former farmer Brad's score exceed your's in one. The same for anti-heroes and misadventurers: it should be something significant, proved(or based on superstitions) and widespread. Do you like it or not, Slate would be more of a hero for the Greatgaunt habitants, than, let's say, Mara Ironheart, although she's a known person too. :3 What makes a hero a hero . . . would constitute a whole other thread on its own, to be honest. I think what you're trying to get at is what Lady Frost is also mentioning. Is this character's reputation -- regardless of level -- worthy of a Permadeath Perk? What has this character done during their time on FRC? What reputation or image has this character put forth to the other characters and NPCs on the server? Getting a permadeath perk doesn't necessarily mean that the character is going to die a hero or die in infamy (i.e. something the bards can write about) nor does it mean they need to be someone the bards currently write about. They don't need to be "promoted" by anyone. What will matter more is how their reputation currently sits with the FRC community, Player Characters and DMs alike. Besides, who's to say that a local town hero can't get a tombstone placed in their honor just in that one town? They don't have to be known through all of Cormyr to constitute a perk. |
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Aug 25, 2015 12:47:05 GMT -5
Okay, time to rewrite and review. ---- First, a reminder of FRC's general Permadeath rule: "There is NO forced permadeath on FRC. No DM, player, or character can force your character to accept permadeath if you do not wish it. Permadeath can only occur with the player of the character's consent." Permadeath Potential FeatureWhen the opportunity presents itself a player may choose to permanently kill (aka permadeath) their character. Permadeathing the character means that they may not be resurrected, recreated, or played ever again. The character will be removed from the server vault to prevent any temptations and to keep the integrity of the story. Examples of opportunities: - committing a crime that constitutes execution as a punishment - dying in a Character vs. Character combat situation (aka PvP) - dying during a DM run quest that holds Permadeath Potential While any character at any level can simply choose to permadeath, the Permadeath Potential Feature gives characters with sufficient In Character reputation a reward perk for killing off their PC. The reward will be based on In Character factors, player's choice, and DM review. Only one reward may be given. Examples of rewards: - a placable (sp?) with the characters name on it (tombstone, plaque, monument, permanently posted wrap sheet, etc.) - an item placed in the treasure tables connected to the character (Arrows of *, Shard of *'s Sword, Fingerbone of *, etc.) - an NPC conversation that includes the character's name - a shambling undead hostile creature or a ghostly/celestial creature made in the character's likeness (this will not be an open door to have the character resurrected) What is sufficient In Character reputation?Sufficient In Character reputation is the reputation that the character has achieved during their time on FRC. Factors can include: - length of time playing the character and consistency in which the character is played - character's involvement with other PCs and how much of an influence they are to the player base - level of participation in DM quests or server events (player run or otherwise) - strength of reputation and image they've made during the character's time online These and other factors will be reviewed by the DM crew (possibly voiced on by the Player Advocates?). During this review period, the character in question will remain "dead" in the Fugue until it's decided if the permadeath is worthy of it being rewarded. If the reward is denied then the player may choose to not permadeath their character and continue play. Continuing will need to be overseen by a DM in order to retain In Character and Story integrity. When the character has sufficient reputation then the discussion can move to which reward will be given. During this time the character will still remain in the vault and "dead" in the Fugue on the offhand chance that the building crew needs to see the character for looks and/or description. When the building crew is ready to have the reward placed into the next update, then the character is removed from the vault. Reasons for this Feature- to give a more finite sense of death (In Character Roleplay) in a game that allows for respawns (OOC Game Mechanics) - to allow for resolutions in Character vs. Character situations and avoid the PvP circle jerk - to encourage more roleplay and character development for the player base post-death - to reward a player's resolve in permadeathing a known character and recognizing the time and effort placed into the character - to give more weight to the In Character criminal justice system in Cormyr, allowing for more permanent executions - to aid, encourage, and support roleplay involving permanent death and the storytelling involved with it ------ end So, I've taken out any mentions of level requirements, removed getting a leveled up character as a reward, and left deciding factors vague enough to be able to include as many different sorts of play styles possible. This takes out the lather, rinse, repeat worry. Takes out worries of players doing it just to get an "undeserved" item placed in the mod. Makes it possible for a high reputation/low level character to potentially get the perk and doesn't ignore any alignment. In regards to the DMs deciding if the character has sufficient reputation, would it help if the Player Advocates were able to chime in? They wouldn't put in a vote, just speak of their own observations of the character. Ultimately the DMs would still be the ones to decide, but some outside observation might help to make a more informed decision. Also, in deciding a reward, it should be up to the player's preference, but I don't think it would be bad if the player were to ask the whole community for ideas. Again, last decision will be made by the DM/Building crew, but getting input from more than just the player might be fun. Might even add more reward ideas to the list. How's this all sound so far? P.S. I'll be editing the OP to include the above. |
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Post by Hellwalker on Aug 25, 2015 14:25:13 GMT -5
a shambling undead hostile creature or a ghostly/celestial creature made in the character's likeness (this will not be an open door to have the character resurrected) Minor nitpick, but I'd phrase this somewhere along the lines of: "an NPC enemy based on the character such as a shambling undead hostile creature or a ghostly/celestial creature made in the character's likeness (this will not be an open door to have the character resurrected)" Also, in deciding a reward, it should be up to the player's preference, but I don't think it would be bad if the player were to ask the whole community for ideas. Again, last decision will be made by the DM/Building crew, but getting input from more than just the player might be fun. Might even add more reward ideas to the list. I think this would often be a good idea for the affected player to do, but ultimately it's the player who is submitting the reward and permadeath "case" for review, so they should have every liberty to submit whatever suggested option (and interpretation of that option as befits their character) that they think fits best. If that particular idea is denied for some reason DMs could always suggest an alternative that they feel better represent the IC events that lead up to the character's permadeath and the "legacy" they leave behind. There will likely be room for discussion in most of these cases; as long as it's kept to friendly idea generation instead of devolving into player entitlement I think it'll work fine. As with many other things, use of this feature is a privilege, not a right. If a player feels their character's permanent death or retirement should/could have an effect on FRC's history they can always just ask the community or the DMs what reward they think would be fitting. Aside from the above I think this looks good as a draft of the feature. The only thing really missing would be to provide instructions for how a PC would go about making use of (ie, submitting one of their characters for) the permadeath reward, but that's largely up to the DMs - if they decide to implement it. Your draft contains solid guidelines for what qualifies a character to apply for it; only the logistics of the how to remains... As I suggested in a previous post, however, and as is hinted at in the draft above, it could work as follows: 1) The player owning the affected character submits an application to a DM of choice, including name of PC, account name of player, a brief description of the events that led up to their death/retirement, and a brief description of why a memento of this character would be a suitable addition to FRC's history, as well as a suggestion for the reward out of the available options. Optionally, the player can also include a list of names of other PCs primarily engaged in the plot/RP created by the affected character (for ease of review). 2) The DM Team then discusses the case. If needed they can approach/discuss with involved players. 3) A ruling is made. Either it's denied, the DM team suggests a different reward option they find more fitting (and with the player's agreement, approve), or it's approved. 4) If approved, the request is sent to the Build Team to implement, at which point the character is removed from the player's vault. PS: Step-by-step instructions are always helpful!  |
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Post by Rane on Aug 25, 2015 16:11:54 GMT -5
Lots of arguments but call me a cynic but this is what bothers me. Cyricist PVP dies, makes bane pvp. Later he dies and gets new character for mask pvp and then he dies and we get a new cyricist pvp. If someone makes a character for mask "all about pvp" then they probably dont know alot about the game. And we have another problem on our hands. Same goes for bane |
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Post by DOT on Aug 25, 2015 21:07:40 GMT -5
This thread does not need to go the way of goods/bads digging.
It's about rewarding roleplay that ends in a very appropriate way if done properly.
Chooo chooo, aaaaaall aboard!
To review, death can be an appropriate end to a good story.
-so far we have come up with three ways of rewarding death, new character with xp, items in treasure table referencing character.... aaand I forget what the last one was (place placeable in server?).
Personally, I'm still going for the treasure table one. |
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Post by DOT on Aug 25, 2015 21:13:08 GMT -5
Permadeath Potential FeatureWhen the opportunity presents itself a player may choose to permanently kill (aka permadeath) their character. Permadeathing the character means that they may not be resurrected, recreated, or played ever again. The character will be removed from the server vault to prevent any temptations and to keep the integrity of the story. Just a random thought. What if, rather than be removed from the server vault, couldn't the character be given an token that cant be traded/dropped so they auto spawn in the fugue plane and are unable to use the portal?
All honesty, I doubt this can be properly implemented for other rp, maybe its just something that can be elaborated in the far future. makes that IC fugue area more interesting... even though one's dead
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