Permadeath Potential in Regards To IC Character Punishments

[ShadowCatJen]

Edit 8/25. Scroll down for rewrite.

Now before you fly off the handle at the title of this, please read through the idea before you hit reply.

Let me preface this with the most important part which I will be repeating.

This suggestion for permadeath is only if the player of the punished character is willing to have their character be permadeathed.

The idea is simple.

Your character (who must be at minimum a level 10) commits enough severe crimes to warrant their arrest and execution. When your character is executed then they are permadeathed. The character is taken out of the vault, never to return. You create a new character who starts at level 10 with starting gold to reflect. This character may NOT have any connections with your previous character. They are new to the area and know nothing of what went on before.

This permadeath potential can also be extended to more than just criminal character punishments.

There would be multiple stipulations.

1) The scenario must be fully roleplayed out in game. A player may not simply just hit level 10 and start PvPing people with the notion of getting a new level 10 character out of it. If no substantial roleplay has been witnessed by any player or DM by this character then the permadeath potential will be denied.

2) A player may not simply ask to have a character permadeathed without in game roleplay to back the IC death. Writing a log, story, or journal on the forums will not count. The roleplay must be done fully in game and must have substantial roleplay to back it. Otherwise the permadeath potential will be denied.

3) There are no take backs and you may not remake the permadeathed character. They are dead and gone and no amount of "legitimate" roleplay reasons for them coming back will make your character an exception. You as the player have made the choice to permadeath them and it will be adhered to. A player will be given one RL week to reconsider the choice before permadeath is initiated.

4) A player may not force another one to make the permadeath choice. A DM may not force a player to make the permadeath choice. It is strictly up to the player themselves if they wish this to happen.

5) The new character created may not be made in order to retaliate against anyone that your previous character was enemies with. The new character is a fresh start, treat it as such.

6) To avoid the real life sensitivity of the matter, a player may not have their character commit suicide as a means to have the permadeath potential kick in. While striving for realism in RP is fine, this would be treating too lightly a serious and triggering matter for some. (It would be triggering for me, I know that for certain.)


This can open up a door to several things.

A sense of closure with particular characters while not ending or ignoring the player's efforts by rewarding the choice with a new level 10 character.

A sense of impact in regards to death and what it can mean to other characters who "live on".

DMs can possibly run quests with "Permadeath Potential". It would still be the player's choice, but a DM can craft quests to cater to the possibility. It can give the chance for epic style deaths where a character sacrifices all in order to do what needs be done.

It will give bards something to sing about. (Kidding/not kidding )


Granted, there would probably few who would choose to do this, but leaving the potential open while giving the player some reward for their time invested I think would help improve the RP.

So, thoughts? Holes in the idea? Ways to improve it?

Update based on input:

First, a reminder of FRC's general Permadeath rule:

"There is NO forced permadeath on FRC. No DM, player, or character can force your character to accept permadeath if you do not wish it. Permadeath can only occur with the player of the character's consent."


Permadeath Potential Feature

When the opportunity presents itself a player may choose to permanently kill (aka permadeath) their character. Permadeathing the character means that they may not be resurrected, recreated, or played ever again. The character will be removed from the server vault to prevent any temptations and to keep the integrity of the story.

Examples of opportunities:

- committing a crime that constitutes execution as a punishment
- dying in a Character vs. Character combat situation (aka PvP)
- dying during a DM run quest that holds Permadeath Potential

While any character at any level can simply choose to permadeath, the Permadeath Potential Feature gives characters with sufficient In Character reputation a reward perk for killing off their PC. The reward will be based on In Character factors, player's choice, and DM review. Only one reward may be given.

Examples of rewards:

- a placable (sp?) with the characters name on it (tombstone, plaque, monument, permanently posted wrap sheet, etc.)
- an item placed in the treasure tables connected to the character (Arrows of *, Shard of *'s Sword, Fingerbone of *, etc.)
- an NPC conversation that includes the character's name
- a shambling undead hostile creature or a ghostly/celestial creature made in the character's likeness (this will not be an open door to have the character resurrected)

What is sufficient In Character reputation?

Sufficient In Character reputation is the reputation that the character has achieved during their time on FRC.

Factors can include:

- length of time playing the character and consistency in which the character is played
- character's involvement with other PCs and how much of an influence they are to the player base
- level of participation in DM quests or server events (player run or otherwise)
- strength of reputation and image they've made during the character's time online

These and other factors will be reviewed by the DM crew (possibly voiced on by the Player Advocates?). During this review period, the character in question will remain "dead" in the Fugue until it's decided if the permadeath is worthy of it being rewarded. If the reward is denied then the player may choose to not permadeath their character and continue play. Continuing will need to be overseen by a DM in order to retain In Character and Story integrity.

When the character has sufficient reputation then the discussion can move to which reward will be given. During this time the character will still remain in the vault and "dead" in the Fugue on the offhand chance that the building crew needs to see the character for looks and/or description. When the building crew is ready to have the reward placed into the next update, then the character is removed from the vault.

Reasons for this Feature

- to give a more finite sense of death (In Character Roleplay) in a game that allows for respawns (OOC Game Mechanics)
- to allow for resolutions in Character vs. Character situations and avoid the PvP circle jerk
- to encourage more roleplay and character development for the player base post-death
- to reward a player's resolve in permadeathing a known character and recognizing the time and effort placed into the character
- to give more weight to the In Character criminal justice system in Cormyr, allowing for more permanent executions
- to aid, encourage, and support roleplay involving permanent death and the storytelling involved with it

[Rane]

I like it. I would make a couple of changes though.

1 being this.. Instead of just those who commit heinous acts, we include those on the other side who die under some solid rp.

Not only do evil
Guys come back after executions, but good guys come back after perfectly timed and placed ambushes with no witnesses.

I think if this proposal goes both ways then both sides would be a lot happier.

[erratic1]

This was something floating around years ago, I agreed with it then and I still think this is a good idea now.

Someone spending ages on a character then willingly perma-kills them off for a well-told story? Why shouldn't they be rewarded in some way?

[ShadowCatJen]

Aug 19, 2015 14:07:06 GMT -5 Rane said:

I like it. I would make a couple of changes though.

1 being this.. Instead of just those who commit heinous acts, we include those on the other side who die under some solid rp.

Not only do evil
Guys come back after executions, but
I think if this proposal goes both ways then both sides would be a lot happier.

"This permadeath potential can also be extended to more than just criminal character punishments."

Absolutely goes both ways. This would be extended to all characters regardless of alignment. It is not an "evil's only" choice.

There are a ton of reasons why a character might die and if it's backed by solid meaningful roleplay then the impact will be that much greater for all involved. Everything from vengeance kills to rival characters dueling it out for the last time. It can all be included.

Edit to add: But it still would be up to the "dead" players choice to use the permadeath potential. A good guy may still come back after perfectly timed and placed ambushes with no witnesses if the player doesn't wish to be permadeathed. Other players can't choose that for them or try to pressure them into that choice "because roleplay happened". Again, read stipulation 4.

[Razgriz]

Well I don't know. Each time I create a character I want to start as level 1 in most cases. Those first levels are fun, not to mention that a level 10 char is going to miss the GG vols, unless Callen allows this character to take the oath. Thus starting as 10 after permadeath makes no difference for me personally.

[ShadowCatJen]

Aug 19, 2015 14:24:46 GMT -5 Razgriz said:

Well I don't know. Each time I create a character I want to start as level 1 in most cases. Those first levels are fun, not to mention that a level 10 char is going to miss the GG vols, unless Callen allows this character to take the oath. Thus starting as 10 after permadeath makes no difference for me personally.

Then what would you suggest as an alternative to starting a new character at level 10? Do you have an alternative reward in mind?

What I have above certainly isn't set in stone and the new character can simply be one reward out of several choices.

[Lady Frost]

Similarly, I've supported an idea like this for a long time. I proposed something similar in the Player Advocate boards back when I was a PA.

Part of my reward was immortalizing the PC somehow (like a statue for the PC that sacrificed themselves for something) and/or allowing them to reach some unattainable goal (like allowing a necromancer to retire to Lichdom or a Royal Corps member to retire into a high ranking Purple Dragon Position).

[fisheyes]

This is pretty much what we had on my server, except we did not have any rewards for the next character, and that didn't stop people from perma-killing their characters. Sometimes on their own accord, sometimes through DMed 'opportunities'. It was always up to the player to decide if their character died, and most of the deaths were of the "DMed Permanent Potential Quest" type. When characters approached an action that could, or would most certainly, lead to permanent death, I would usually tell them that "this will permanently end your character, are you sure?" On average, there was about one chance for a heroic death per large scale plot, usually at the end. A couple of deaths happened 'mid season', but most were heroic sacrifices.

There were however 'IC rewards' for your dead character. Typically after a heroic sacrifice, a character would get a tombstone, statue, or something else that *others* could remember them by, whatever seemed appropriate (obviously, the dwarf who closed the magma-proof door from the inside couldn't be buried, since his remains was... well, 'melted', but he did get a statue in the mine he owned). There was also a couple of characters who retired as NPCs.

I suppose a more 'OOC reward' we had was that most permanent deaths, if they played an important part of a larger plot and/or the character was famous (or became famous through their death), had their name recorded on the timeline we kept. It helped reminding people that what had happened in the past was important and would not be forgotten (yes, I've rambled about this before).

Edit:
However, I wouldn't mind having an OOC reward for your next character. But I'm not sure if I like it being restricted by any kind of level range. Maybe just, "you get 50% of your dead character's XP to your new character" to a maximum of X instead?

[ShadowCatJen]

So what we have now is ....

Restart a new character at 50% your last character's XP to a max of level 15 (10? 12? 13?). Starting gold equivalent.

Have your character immortalized in some way that serves as a permanent reminder of them. A tombstone, a monument, name mentioned in the server's history timeline. Perhaps for the more infamous sorts there can be a graveyard where they're buried, a tombstone marking it, and hostile undead spawn there with their character's names over them.

The issue with having them around as an NPC or having them retire (Lichdom, achieve full PDK status) is that it takes away from the death factor. What's the point of the permadeath if the character is still around afterwards. That doesn't work for this.

What about receiving a perk for one of the player's other established characters, provided they have one. I know quite a few run around with more than one PC. Maybe be given a unique item? Get run through a quest crafted specifically for that character? Hmm . . .

[Lady Frost]

Aug 19, 2015 15:35:07 GMT -5 ShadowCatJen said:

So what we have now is ....

Restart a new character at 50% your last character's XP to a max of level 15 (10? 12? 13?). Starting gold equivalent.

Have your character immortalized in some way that serves as a permanent reminder of them. A tombstone, a monument, name mentioned in the server's history timeline. Perhaps for the more infamous sorts there can be a graveyard where they're buried, a tombstone marking it, and hostile undead spawn there with their character's names over them.

The issue with having them around as an NPC or having them retire (Lichdom, achieve full PDK status) is that it takes away from the death factor. What's the point of the permadeath if the character is still around afterwards. That doesn't work for this.

What about receiving a perk for one of the player's other established characters, provided they have one. I know quite a few run around with more than one PC. Maybe be given a unique item? Get run through a quest crafted specifically for that character? Hmm . . .

What I had been going for wasn't as much focused on the death factor, but just getting people to be more willing to let go. The topic at the time was the massive level range gaps, and how to get more people to be willing to retire and start anew.

[fisheyes]

Also, I don't think suicide should be restricted from being rewarded. An example from my server was a fallen paladin who, once he realized what horrible deeds he had done, decided to end his life. It was a very sad, yet fitting end to his character and if there was a reward, he should have had it. I understand this is a sensitive subject, but I don't think we should completely shy away from subjects like this, but instead try to handle them in as mature a fashion as possible. And perhaps on a case by case basis. Though, it's not something we should encourage, we don't want to see characters killing themselves just so they can start a character at a higher level. Another example would be whatshisface the villain from Mass Effect 1, who you could persuade to kill himself, thus avoiding a boss battle. If that was on an RP server, he should have got an XP bonus on his next character.

I don't think players should get rewards to their other established characters for something another of your characters did.

The NPC retiring would probably be a choice separate from any permanent death situations, and not meant as a reward for perma death. If your characters gets permanently killed, your character shouldn't be immortalized as an NPC. But say, a PC decides to set up shop and then permanently becomes an NPC shopkeeper (who could of course be permanently killed in a DM plot...).

[Razgriz]

Aug 19, 2015 14:30:30 GMT -5 ShadowCatJen said:

Aug 19, 2015 14:24:46 GMT -5 Razgriz said:

Well I don't know. Each time I create a character I want to start as level 1 in most cases. Those first levels are fun, not to mention that a level 10 char is going to miss the GG vols, unless Callen allows this character to take the oath. Thus starting as 10 after permadeath makes no difference for me personally.

Then what would you suggest as an alternative to starting a new character at level 10? Do you have an alternative reward in mind?

What I have above certainly isn't set in stone and the new character can simply be one reward out of several choices.

Lets see...

I think the point is not if they want to be permakilled, but how they were perceieved (in character) by the rest of the server and NPCs when they were permakilled.

Monuments and statues work good for heroes who helped the kingdom and Cormytes, perhaps for those redeemed villians too. However, they do not work that much for most villains who remained evil to the end.

An idea for the dead villains would be to have the NPCs children to have a dialogue with something like "Mommy says I cannot play here at nights because [*evil char name*] will come and take me away.

Or perhaps an NPC bard could tell the story of an infamous outlaw to those that wanted to listen to it. This one works for heroes as well.

In the Triad guildhouse we have a Hall of Heroes, which is a section of the castle dedicated to knights and their allies who fell in battle against evil or that are declared MIA after a mission. These are not tombs, but we keep their armor, weapon and or something symbolic to those characters when they lived.

Edit:
As for recieving bonus XP/levels for a new charatcer once you permakilled one, well I don't see the point really. Those can be gained anyway. I would suggest to grant them a customized RP item with a description and item properties that are betetr than what is found elsewhere, but that is not that strong either.

Maybe a +1 mage staff with spellcraft and lore on it or the officila robes/armor of the organization or order they belong to.

[goldenhearts]

Tend to like the idea, it could be as simple as five strikes and you're out after being executed. So the fifth execution is a perma-death one. Immortalizing players due to random perma-death thing, can sort of backfire. As it would down play the epic reputation feat, that seems to have little impact as it is on the server. I mean, why would someone be more famous because they bit the bullet and got themselves perma-killed?

Still, some good thoughts there. Was even thinking of retiring my cleric and getting her to sell stuff at a shrine, if that was at all possible. She'd just be another NPC, and in turn would be perma-death (in a sense) as I can never play her again.

[Hellwalker]

Aug 19, 2015 15:09:11 GMT -5 fisheyes said:

This is pretty much what we had on my server, except we did not have any rewards for the next character, and that didn't stop people from perma-killing their characters. Sometimes on their own accord, sometimes through DMed 'opportunities'. It was always up to the player to decide if their character died, and most of the deaths were of the "DMed Permanent Potential Quest" type. When characters approached an action that could, or would most certainly, lead to permanent death, I would usually tell them that "this will permanently end your character, are you sure?" On average, there was about one chance for a heroic death per large scale plot, usually at the end. A couple of deaths happened 'mid season', but most were heroic sacrifices.

There were however 'IC rewards' for your dead character. Typically after a heroic sacrifice, a character would get a tombstone, statue, or something else that *others* could remember them by, whatever seemed appropriate (obviously, the dwarf who closed the magma-proof door from the inside couldn't be buried, since his remains was... well, 'melted', but he did get a statue in the mine he owned). There was also a couple of characters who retired as NPCs.

I suppose a more 'OOC reward' we had was that most permanent deaths, if they played an important part of a larger plot and/or the character was famous (or became famous through their death), had their name recorded on the timeline we kept. It helped reminding people that what had happened in the past was important and would not be forgotten (yes, I've rambled about this before).

I've always liked this idea and I think it's strongly worth considering for FRC, but I do lean towards skepticism when it comes to the OOC "transfer some of the xp to your new character" reward, and I'll go into the reasons below:

I think it's important to remember that roleplay is the main attraction and focus of the server and why people enjoy it, so IC incentive and IC rewards are preferable right from the start. Whereas the "XP Inheritance" idea certainly encourages players to make sacrifices for the sake of the plot and to give credibility and continuity to the setting (in the form of, for example, letting their captured and executed character remain dead) the nature of this reward is ultimately OOC. This isn't necessarily taboo even on a RP server, but it does provide a certain element of dissonance in the policy of encouraging RP for RP's sake.

Conversely, giving players the option of somehow immortalizing their PC and the impact that PC had on the world around them at the time of death or retirement promotes RP through RP. How, you ask? It makes the world feel more alive since you can see that FRC has a history, and every time you see one of these mementos of past PCs and their influence on the world it'll give players a palpable sense of history and a sense that it is indeed possible to impact the world around you through the actions of your character(s). Furthermore, it encourages RP by making new generations of characters in turn ask questions about this history, and perhaps incite veteran characters to tell tales about these past events and the effect it had on the people involved. All of this translates to a more immersive world in which characters truly can leave a mark on the world without forcing enormous changes from the build or DM team (burning down Greatgaunt, anyone?), and it inspires new characters to further this cycle, which very clearly promotes and encourages solid RP that affects the people around you; and what better goal for an RP server?

I would however propose that some manner of simple DM review or application process for determining what this "memento" should be and if it makes sense for what the character has accomplished be taken under consideration, as otherwise we might see a great influx of people suddenly deciding to off their alts en masse just to get "something cool" and permanent in the game world, thus trivializing this boon and taking away the "specialness" and, indeed, the sense of "reward" that accompanies it. This commodification of the "death/retirement reward" would lessen the attraction of the feature and thus subvert the intended result of implementing the option in the first place. I'd emphasize the simple aspect of this process however as I'm sure no one - not the DMs or the players - enjoy the prospect of more "paperwork". Something as simple as a short paragraph submitted to the DM team by the player explaining what form of memento is proposed for the character who dies/retires and a summary/justification of the events leading up to this, explaining the impact the character have had in order to earn this memento of their passing into the history of FRC. Keep it simple, keep it short, and I believe something like this could work very well in order to promote an ever more living world that, through its very nature, promotes RP.

[Southpaw]

I like all these ideas. I think anything that increases options for players and DM's to do what makes sense to a given situation is a good thing. I agree there should be a level cap on the new character, and I think 15 is good, that or half the level of the departed PC. Also, to Merc's point, even if there were the option of bringing in a new character at level 15, no one would be forced to, but could always bring in a new one at level 1. But for players who might enjoy rolling in with, let's say, one strong villain after another to terrorize the server for a while and then let it go when it falls, then start a new one, not having to spend all that time building up from level 1 every time they cycle through with a new character might encourage a greater turnover rate among that portion of the server population and encourage that kind of role play.  That offers RP rewards for everyone involved in their plots, allies and enemies alike. If it enables and encourages people to be willing to let a plot-related character come to an end when the other side IC'ly wins and makes it easier to start the next one, then it's a boon all around.

[Pedantry INC]

The biggest boost I'd ever want to see is to level 6. That's when you're finished doing low level dungeons. I'd even say that starting at level 3 is a huge boon. I would never suggest anything higher. Low levels are some of the exceptional formative times for rp.

I am much more inclined to stand behind additions to the world that pay respects to lost pcs, or even npcs, and orginizations as doing so helps to bring the world to life. Arabel has had a number of these little mentions added recently and it makes the city feel like it has a bit more history. Of course not every character is going to get a mention, but I think it's fair that characters that have a wider impact or perish in a spectacularly dramatic sever plot. Even living characters can get these things. Sometimes it's just a matter of inquiring with the right parties.

I'm happy to support people that want to add something to the world to make their mark, a gravemarker along the road, or a tombstone in one of the many cemeteries, or a posthumous plaque in honor of some accomplishment they had in life. All that has to be done by them is to contact me, and to understand that ultimately the decision is made by dms if it's a very major addition in a central place. I will of course, only do these things for truly dead characters.

[ShadowCatJen]

Aug 19, 2015 15:53:47 GMT -5 fisheyes said:

Also, I don't think suicide should be restricted from being rewarded. An example from my server was a fallen paladin who, once he realized what horrible deeds he had done, decided to end his life. It was a very sad, yet fitting end to his character and if there was a reward, he should have had it. I understand this is a sensitive subject, but I don't think we should completely shy away from subjects like this, but instead try to handle them in as mature a fashion as possible.

That paladin should have strived to make up for his transgressions. The idea that the only way out for a fallen paladin is to take his own life glamorizes something that shouldn't be taken so lightly. Working at a redemption arc would have been more positive and shows that no matter how bad it gets there is always a way up and out of it. Suicide should never be "fitting". It isn't fitting in real life and it shouldn't be fitting in any genre be it game, movie, or literature.

And perhaps on a case by case basis. Though, it's not something we should encourage, we don't want to see characters killing themselves just so they can start a character at a higher level.

They wouldn't be able to start at a higher level, so there's no worry about that. What we don't want it people permadeathing their characters in a non-meaningful way and treat the situation flippantly.

[ShadowCatJen]

Aug 19, 2015 17:30:59 GMT -5 goldenhearts said:

Tend to like the idea, it could be as simple as five strikes and you're out after being executed. So the fifth execution is a perma-death one.

No, the Permadeath Potential is only supposed to be that. A potential. It is not a means to stop characters from committing crimes and have players stop short of committing that fifth crime to avoid forced permadeath. That is not the aim of this idea.

Immortalizing players due to random perma-death thing, can sort of backfire. As it would down play the epic reputation feat, that seems to have little impact as it is on the server. I mean, why would someone be more famous because they bit the bullet and got themselves perma-killed?

It wouldn't be random. As said there needs to be a good deal of roleplay that happens before hand. If there isn't then the DMs can certainly deny someone the benefits of a Permadeath Potential. If they come along, fast-level to 10 in under a month, and ask to perma and get benefits for it the DMs should give a solid "NO".

Still, some good thoughts there. Was even thinking of retiring my cleric and getting her to sell stuff at a shrine, if that was at all possible. She'd just be another NPC, and in turn would be perma-death (in a sense) as I can never play her again.

Think some confusion seems to be building here on the thread. Permadeath and retiring the character are two completely different things.

Permadeath Potential is ONLY for those who permadeath, NOT those who want to retire. Retiring a PC is a different sort of thing all together and needs to not be confused or mixed with this idea.

[ShadowCatJen]

So the general concerns I see are . . .

A worry of people permadeathing their characters just to be immortalized on FRC when they may not deserve it. Then being allowed to start a new character with benefits that they may try to do the same with.

I think the solution for this is easy.

Have it that the player can only choose ONE benefit. They can have:

A new character starting at 50% of the XP that the permadeathed character had (to a max of level 15).

OR

Have their character immortalized in some way on the server. Which way it is done to be chosen by the DM/Building crew.

OR

Start a new character with a unique item not available. This item may not be given away to another PC.

OR

. . . whatever other idea of reward we can think of.

Also I would like to state again for us to not get confused on the difference between permadeath and retirement.

Permadeath means permanently dead. There will be no NPC placed in the mod. The character is gone. Period. It will get pulled from your vault. You may not remake them, you may not resurrect them. They will not be used in a DM plot. They will never make a reappearance in any way shape or form. Gone means GONE.

Retiring a character is something the DMs don't even have to get involved in. It doesn't require any reward. It doesn't require the character to be pulled from your vault. They are still alive. You as a player are simply deciding to no longer play them. You can make up any story you want about where they are and where they'll settle down at. The DM/Building crew would be at no obligation to make an NPC or immortalize your character. It wouldn't be necessary because the character still belongs to the player even after retirement.

It also means the player can bring them OUT of retirement if they feel the need to. It would be completely up to them.

The main function of the Permadeath Potential is to give a much greater finite feel of death as it pertains to roleplay. Retiring a character isn't death, that's just a happy ending. In order to encourage people to take this path when the opportunity presents itself, players should be rewarded for the effort and the sacrifice. FRC is not a permadeath server, but it does have room to give allowances for it.

Not everyone is going to want to do this, because most who invest a decent amount of time in a character they like playing will not want to stop playing that character. Those who do choose it can leave a lasting impression just from the in character death alone and this would be without any DM reward. The potential for that amount of roleplay to come about for one character's final death can be immortalized in more than just a named placable or an NPC conversation.

. . . it's just we need to dangle a carrot to get anyone to really do it.

[DOT]

Aug 20, 2015 9:05:16 GMT -5 Pedantry INC said:

The biggest boost I'd ever want to see is to level 6. That's when you're finished doing low level dungeons. I'd even say that starting at level 3 is a huge boon. I would never suggest anything higher. Low levels are some of the exceptional formative times for rp.

I am much more inclined to stand behind additions to the world that pay respects to lost pcs, or even npcs, and orginizations as doing so helps to bring the world to life. Arabel has had a number of these little mentions added recently and it makes the city feel like it has a bit more history. Of course not every character is going to get a mention, but I think it's fair that characters that have a wider impact or perish in a spectacularly dramatic sever plot. Even living characters can get these things. Sometimes it's just a matter of inquiring with the right parties.

I'm happy to support people that want to add something to the world to make their mark, a gravemarker along the road, or a tombstone in one of the many cemeteries, or a posthumous plaque in honor of some accomplishment they had in life. All that has to be done by them is to contact me, and to understand that ultimately the decision is made by dms if it's a very major addition in a central place. I will of course, only do these things for truly dead characters.

I would agree in this regard, especially that the "reward" is having your character's story being added to the setting in some way… be it via a gravestone, rumors, old documents (easter eggs) found elsewhere… that sort of thing.

[appleseedy]

Perma death is already an option, you just need not to leave the ooc death area I would encourage people who have died in meaningful pvp to do it I would also encourage them to apply for in game modifications to the server if appropriate. I don't quite know why we need server rulings about it?

I would support the idea of bonus Xp from border registration to get PCs to lvl 2 or 3

[Southpaw]

Aug 20, 2015 11:47:57 GMT -5 appleseedy said:

Perma death is already an option, you just need not to leave the ooc death area I would encourage people who have died in meaningful pvp to do it I would also encourage them to apply for in game modifications to the server if appropriate. I don't quite know why we need server rulings about it?

I would support the idea of bonus Xp from border registration to get PCs to lvl 2 or 3

Knowing explicitly what options are available to a player encourages people to utilize them.  Not knowing tamps this down. I think that's pretty simple.

[Hellwalker]

Aug 20, 2015 11:39:27 GMT -5 ShadowCatJen said:

OR

. . . whatever other idea of reward we can think of.

Something that might be really neat, but won't necessarily fit every character, would be to have a random loot item connected to that character's history created and added to the loot tables. These could be mainly flavor items and "sellables" but potentially also flavorful equipment (of reasonable power).

[ShadowCatJen]

Aug 20, 2015 12:17:58 GMT -5 Hellwalker said:

Aug 20, 2015 11:39:27 GMT -5 ShadowCatJen said:

OR

. . . whatever other idea of reward we can think of.

Something that might be really neat, but won't necessarily fit every character, would be to have a random loot item connected to that character's history created and added to the loot tables. These could be mainly flavor items and "sellables" but potentially also flavorful equipment (of reasonable power).

Oh oh! I see what you're saying.

Like if I were to permadeath Mynian one of the loot drops added could be "Copperhand's Custom Clothing". It would be cloth armor, maybe with a +1 to persuade.

Would this idea stand separate from the "get a tombstone, etc." reward? Maybe so because it would be very different from a placable being added?

[Hellwalker]

Aug 20, 2015 12:32:02 GMT -5 ShadowCatJen said:

Aug 20, 2015 12:17:58 GMT -5 Hellwalker said:

Something that might be really neat, but won't necessarily fit every character, would be to have a random loot item connected to that character's history created and added to the loot tables. These could be mainly flavor items and "sellables" but potentially also flavorful equipment (of reasonable power).

Oh oh! I see what you're saying.

Like if I were to permadeath Mynian one of the loot drops added could be "Copperhand's Custom Clothing". It would be cloth armor, maybe with a +1 to persuade.

Would this idea stand separate from the "get a tombstone, etc." reward? Maybe so because it would be very different from a placable being added?

Correct! It would be either or; so you either get a "memento" in the form of a placeable or other minor addition to the gameworld itself, OR a custom item based on the dead/retired character added as random loot.

Generally it might be a good idea to make these items "duplicable" so that it'll make sense that several "copies" may be found, so no "Character X's Super Unique One-of-a-Kind Sword They Had When They Died", but if, say, your character was a renowned weaponsmith you could add something like "Character X-Forged Warhammer", or perhaps if your character was a cleric, why not a personalized (and since their death transcribed) prayer book reciting their teachings/beliefs. The ideas are literally endless, but hopefully the jist of it is clear.

[heartofsilver]

~~IF~~ permadeath was a real issue, I think it might be cool for the bad guys to have a sort of "Wall of infamy" which listed out all the things they got away with before they were caught and killed. Good upstanding citizens would pass and shake their head at the record which elevates the worst to the worst in infamy, but bad guys would reference it as street cred. "Ya'll 'member that Aris guy? Look at all 'e did before 'day finally got 'em. That guy was the /real deal/ dawg" ...or something.


You might get more people looking to play street thugs instead of of the many, many evil masterminds we already got.

[ShadowCatJen]

Aug 20, 2015 13:14:38 GMT -5 heartofsilver said:

~~IF~~ permadeath was a real issue, I think it might be cool for the bad guys to have a sort of "Wall of infamy" which listed out all the things they got away with before they were caught and killed. Good upstanding citizens would pass and shake their head at the record which elevates the worst to the worst in infamy, but bad guys would reference it as street cred. "Ya'll 'member that Aris guy? Look at all 'e did before 'day finally got 'em. That guy was the /real deal/ dawg" ...or something.


You might get more people looking to play street thugs instead of of the many, many evil masterminds we already got.

Legit laughed out loud at this.

That's a pretty good idea for the more infamous inclined that would perma. That would fall under getting a tombstone/monument/plaque reward I would think.

[fisheyes]

Aug 20, 2015 10:48:14 GMT -5 ShadowCatJen said:

Aug 19, 2015 15:53:47 GMT -5 fisheyes said:

Also, I don't think suicide should be restricted from being rewarded. An example from my server was a fallen paladin who, once he realized what horrible deeds he had done, decided to end his life. It was a very sad, yet fitting end to his character and if there was a reward, he should have had it. I understand this is a sensitive subject, but I don't think we should completely shy away from subjects like this, but instead try to handle them in as mature a fashion as possible.

That paladin should have strived to make up for his transgressions. The idea that the only way out for a fallen paladin is to take his own life glamorizes something that shouldn't be taken so lightly. Working at a redemption arc would have been more positive and shows that no matter how bad it gets there is always a way up and out of it. Suicide should never be "fitting". It isn't fitting in real life and it shouldn't be fitting in any genre be it game, movie, or literature.

And perhaps on a case by case basis. Though, it's not something we should encourage, we don't want to see characters killing themselves just so they can start a character at a higher level.

They wouldn't be able to start at a higher level, so there's no worry about that. What we don't want it people permadeathing their characters in a non-meaningful way and treat the situation flippantly.

I do not want to glamorize suicide and it should not be taken lightly. But it has been, and will continue to be, a prevalent part of all fiction (like Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet, Othello, etc.). It is controversial, and should always be used carefully, like all other sensitive subjects. It will of course always be subjective if it is handled with care or not (or as you say, never fitting). But it can be used to portray very strong emotions and create closure.

Concerning that particular fallen paladin... I suppose the circumstances were a bit unusual for a roleplay persistent world, since that event was one of the very last events before I shut down the server for good and it didn't happen during 'normal play'. It happened after the final events and The End as an 'Epilogue Event' where PCs got a chance to wrap things up. Some PCs travelled into the sunset, others got married, and one fallen paladin decided to kill himself. I guess he could have chosen to end on a happy note, but after what he had done over the past years, it seemed "fitting", as there just wasn't time to properly play out a redemption arc (there were opportunities for redemption during the final events, but he missed them, some for ooc time reasons). It was his choice, of course. There were other characters who played out redemption arcs, perhaps most notably a sorcerer who went from famous hero, to evil insane cannibal outlaw, and then to sort of redemption by sacrificing himself in the final event to rid the world of the ancient evil that had led to his own evil.


Anyway... I'm starting to lean more towards 'no XP rewards for new characters'. It's simplest that way. But I'm all for graves, statues, skeletons, paintings, items, whatever works as a logical consequence of the character's roleplay in life. Mynian's clothes as random loot could work since it can be assumed she makes lots of clothes, but I wouldn't want to see Milly's bone dagger on a random bandit corpse. Neither should someone who dies in an Underdark crypt get a tombstone in Greatgaunt unless his body could realistically be carried to the surface, but it would be neat if his equipment later turned up on an auction, or with an NPC villain, or a party of adventurers could meet his animated corpse (could even become a permanent mini-boss).

[Hellwalker]

Aug 20, 2015 13:35:14 GMT -5 fisheyes said:

. . . but it would be neat if his equipment later turned up on an auction, or with an NPC villain, or a party of adventurers could meet his animated corpse (could even become a permanent mini-boss).

The "become a permanent mini-boss" idea is a marvelous alternative for a more evil-inclined character whose only legacy they want continued on FRC is one of being the villain. Perhaps a mass murderer who is executed wants their vengeful spirit to haunt the place of their death or capture, and act as a villainous NPC/enemy henceforth? This is similar to the "be made an NPC" idea, but more centered towards villainous characters, and I love it.

[Razgriz]

Aug 20, 2015 13:43:53 GMT -5 Hellwalker said:

Aug 20, 2015 13:35:14 GMT -5 fisheyes said:

. . . but it would be neat if his equipment later turned up on an auction, or with an NPC villain, or a party of adventurers could meet his animated corpse (could even become a permanent mini-boss).

The "become a permanent mini-boss" idea is a marvelous alternative for a more evil-inclined character whose only legacy they want continued on FRC is one of being the villain. Perhaps a mass murderer who is executed wants their vengeful spirit to haunt the place of their death or capture, and act as a villainous NPC/enemy henceforth? This is similar to the "be made an NPC" idea, but more centered towards villainous characters, and I love it.

Or good ones who could appear as ghosts who help the living adventurers. For example, the prominent fallen Hullack Wardens could get an NPC Hullack Elven Ghost with a special description and the name of the character it is supposed to represent.