Druids and constructs/summons

[Razgriz]

GG and certain village already offer nice non metal armors for druids in their lower levels. Dragon scale armor is really easy to find and it even comes in different colors. It is all about exploring the module and asking other characters where to buy non metal armor.

As for who can use what and why, I blame the strange multiclassing combiantions that some of us are able to come up with. Multiclassing to gain different abilities is fun and legit, as long as the character stays true to the disadvantages and restrictions of each of the classes.

The moment it stops beign about that, it becomes about power and mechanical optimization. There is nothing wrong in playing a druid/fighter that is clad in fullplate, though it starts to seem strange if the armor beign used is made of metal.

On a related note, there is a certain store with really cool items, such as the mace of disruption. However, the catch is that this store could or could not be furthering the business of grave robbers. Due to that, I suppose some characters would not want to purchase any those items. I could be wrong, but to me it seems that the intent of this store is to see if a character can resist the temptation of buying a powerful gear or also if they can successfully justify it with roleplay somehow.

[Fluffy the Mad]

Apr 25, 2016 13:00:55 GMT -5 mandene said:

]Although the book uses the word "than most deities", I haven't seen that any of the other deities on this list is lenient, though I admit I don't remember the ethos of ALL of them, especially the Mulhorandi ones . Maybe someone else than just Fluffy the Mad feels like looking this up.

I actually screenshotted that passage from the FRCS, but decided not to post it. I'll go through the list in a bit and double-check them if my search function works okay, and if Munroe doesn't end up beating me to the punch. If I finish it I'll edit this post.

[Orchid]

Speaking as someone who was quite literally raised on tabletop D&D and with 28 years of it under my proverbial belt, this whole Druids and metal thing is in my opinion a huge steaming pile of dung. If you want to have a metal using druid, follow Milekki otherwise you accept the ethos other deities have, or you don't play a Druid. This has nothing to do with NWN limitations or convenience, the moment you make concessions for mechanical reasons you are in point of fact meta-gaming and you should feel bad. As far as constructs and Druids, I would say it's a very murky topic, some Druids sure would run screaming from the hills about how terrible it is, others not so much maybe, it also depends on how pragmatic your character is I'd wager. Constructs have a variety of benefits over non-constructs in terms of resistances and sturdiness that one could argue makes it a better defender of the forests since it's unburdened by need of sleep or nourishment and thus can guard more effectively. I just don't feel there is any blanket answer and that it should be addressed by character in their own way. If you as a player feel strongly enough about the topic stands to reason you could decide on a mindset for it for your character to have on your own.

[mysticalkas]

Apr 25, 2016 11:34:51 GMT -5 Penguin said:

This has turned into a fascinating discussion that has evolved from the ethics of druids using constructs to multiple ideas about RP vs player convenience.

To clear a couple points. FRC is a server that has always depended on players holding themselves to a high standard of RP in order to create an immersive server where stories can be be played out in a forgotten realms setting. The entire point of creating a character on this server is to involve yourself in a story of a person of their alignments, classes, races, skill sets, and all other facets that go into making them. It is not to scrape for powergaming meta knowledge tweaks to increase the convenience of the player. The DM staff when they log on come here to spend time creating stories, spicing events, solving problems for players, and in general making the server an enjoyable place to be. We do not log on to nit pick every tiny little detail or police the players unless an egregious situation arises. This does not however mean that we are condoning utilizing facets and loopholes of the NWN engine for players to tweak out and convenience their players. Are we going to come around and carefully study every character with a spyglass and critique their RP? No. We have neither the time nor the patience for that, especially if we want to enhance the server. These sorts of standards we rely on players to hold themselves to so we do not have to. Every character that comes into the server first passes the wizard's questions, and are given a reminder that this is an RP server. They are asked to keep their character IC at all times. Not when its convenient, not only when they know a DM is watching them.f

I am all for discussions on character beliefs and actions, but when I see players start talking about "No DM really cares" it frustrates me, because I promise if the entire DM team decided to start showing how much they care about character accuracy, many players will become angry and feel unjustly targeted. The DM teams does care. We care so much for our players to have fun and enjoy FRC that we choose to not be the nit picking frustration inducing team that our little hearts occasionally want us to be.

So when you find yourself being addressed by a DM in game about some matter, large or small, please remember that the DM is choosing to show they care about you by taking time from creating adventures, making items, dropping XP. they are trying to help you enhance your RP, or give suggestions about how you could improve your or other players experiences on the server. They are not "laying down the hammer." The hammer only comes for griefers, or blatant abusers of the engine for server.

So play on FRC, keep it IC, and make stories the bards will sing long after we are all dust and ashes.

I understand where you are coming from, And you said it in a nut shell that the DM team "expects" there players here to not metagame and stay withing the restrictions that the "LORE" of the lands state. It is also understandable that honest mistakes happen, as I have said, I have made many but I am learning as are others. I feel that clarification on a number of things would be helpful to those of the community here and would welcome the DM's involvement should they see something and question anything about my characters. Unlike a good many that play, I have to take everything one step at a time, create a character, play it so I get feedback from players/DM/Forums...ect. It is the best way I learn and understand what I am doing right or wrong. So thanks to everyone who has done this in the past and will continue to do so in the future.

*elfy hugs*

[mysticalkas]

Apr 25, 2016 15:40:07 GMT -5 Orchid said:

Speaking as someone who was quite literally raised on tabletop D&D and with 28 years of it under my proverbial belt, this whole Druids and metal thing is in my opinion a huge steaming pile of dung. If you want to have a metal using druid, follow Milekki otherwise you accept the ethos other deities have, or you don't play a Druid. This has nothing to do with NWN limitations or convenience, the moment you make concessions for mechanical reasons you are in point of fact meta-gaming and you should feel bad. As far as constructs and Druids, I would say it's a very murky topic, some Druids sure would run screaming from the hills about how terrible it is, others not so much maybe, it also depends on how pragmatic your character is I'd wager. Constructs have a variety of benefits over non-constructs in terms of resistances and sturdiness that one could argue makes it a better defender of the forests since it's unburdened by need of sleep or nourishment and thus can guard more effectively. I just don't feel there is any blanket answer and that it should be addressed by character in their own way. If you as a player feel strongly enough about the topic stands to reason you could decide on a mindset for it for your character to have on your own.

*face palm* 

Where were you before I sold my book! 

This would have been a really great approach to use, but the way constructs are brought about, here in FRC Lore, is by "forcing" them to. Slavery in other words, so my character would still not do it. 

Which of course, brings up a question. Is this common knowledge that all "characters" know. I would assume that mages would know they are forced to be there. Depending on race/alignment/ ....ect....would they still chose to use them or not? 

On this note, if it is actually *approved* by the FRC setting (LORE), and the DM agree that Elementals are forced into the construct how would this actually start to work out? Oh the joys of hashing things out. I really am curious about this now, thought just kinda popped in my head...sorry!

*elfy hugs*

[Munroe]

I want to restate this, because apparently some people have missed it or elected to ignore it where it relates to their characters on FRC. It is apparently a bigger problem than previously realized.

DRUIDS ON FRC SHOULD NOT BE WEARING METAL ARMOR UNLESS IT FALLS UNDER MIELIKKI'S EXCEPTION.
This restriction still includes druids that have gained additional armor proficiency from other sources (such as races, classes, or feats).

Medium and heavy armors should be assumed to be metal unless they say otherwise. Light armors, helmets, and shields can be assumed to be non-metal unless they specify otherwise (whether in item name, item description, or listed material property). Adamantine helms, for instance, would be inappropriate for druids, as would adamantine shields.

Apr 18, 2009 15:54:44 GMT -5 Munroe said:

Druids only suffer a penalty for wearing metal armor, not for using weapons that do not appear on the druid weapons list.

If a druid is proficient with other weapons, the druid may use them.

Druids on FRC do not gain the One Thousand Faces class feature from D&D.

Unless a helm specifies in its name or description the type of material it is made from, you can roleplay it however.

Adamantine helms, for example, should always be treated as containing adamantine. (That means adamantine helms crafted to look like hoods should still be rp'd as having metal in them as well.)

Apr 22, 2009 20:30:31 GMT -5 Munroe said:

Apr 18, 2009 17:19:01 GMT -5 EDM Neo said:

Thanks for the response. Good to know about the weapons, too bad about no thousand faces, but I can live with that.

Does the ruling about helms extend to armors? For example, roleplaying that a breastplate was made of bone or ironwood instead of metal.

No, it doesn't extend to armors. A medium or heavy armor should be considered metal unless it specifies otherwise. If it says it is made of bone or dragon scales, or ironwood or something along those lines, then it isn't metal but medium or heavy armors should be treated as if their default material is metal.

Light armors may be considered non-metal unless they specify otherwise, even studded leather armor, as the studs could be made of something other than metal. Note that in NWN, chainshirts are medium armor, not light armor.

Shields and helmets can be treated as other materials unless they specify that they're metal in their names or descriptions. Most shields would be wooden with metal on them rather than being solid metal anyway, because if they were solid metal, they would be too heavy to lift.

Edit: Yes, D&D has both wooden and steel shields so both are possible and I'm not saying all shields have to be wooden. Just saying you can assume they are unless their name or description says otherwise. If you prefer steel, you can assume that instead, but if you're a druid, you'll want the wooden variety.

I would encourage crafting a shield so it doesn't look explicitly metal (ie shiny and metallic) if it's supposed to be wooden, but that's just a recommendation for an experience of immersion.

These details about the limitation on materials are far less painful now than they were seven years ago, when those DM Q&A posts were made. Druids have many more options now for non-metal armor than they did at the time.

---

If your druid is not currently within regulations, please see about getting the character within regulations or risk repercussions for violation of druidic oaths.

[mandene]

To kick the dead horse the last time, here's 2 of my last 2 cp:s

Metal acts for druids like Magic Faraday Cage (click the picture to enlarge):




2nd cp:

The Player's Handbook from 1978 (Yep, I have the pdf!) states this simple reason for the anti-metal rule:

The more powerful druidic spells, as well as their wider range of weaponry, make up for the fact that druids are unable to use any armor or shields other than leather armor and wooden shields (metallic armor spoils their magical powers).

From mechanical point of view, this was basically the way to balance the class, which through years has been circumvented by inventing armors of similar quality made of other materials. Possibly why this has been disappearing as a requirement through following editions. Druidic spells were more powerful than clerical, though clerics in the same book were instead "balanced" by their weaponry (DM hint hint hint):

All are likewise forbidden to use edged and/or pointed weapons which shed blood.

Though, honestly, having seen stats of the bludgeoning weapons, I don't think it makes that much difference >.>


And I'm going to look ups the Druids & Golems stuff!

[mandene]

Walls of Text Galore!


After having read about Golems, here's what I found out:

Golems, being constructs, aren't summons. They're treated like expensive magic items that take a lot of time (1 month up) to create and cost from 50k gp up. So they shouldn't be available as summons for druids - and for nobody else for that matter!

Instead, I strongly recommend that they are available to craft as magic items; either ones that have charges per day, or rechargable charges, or simply ones (similar to today) that affect what you summon  - thus making them kinda summons.



Crafting Golems

SPOILER: Click to show

Crafting a golem, as stated, is very complicated. Basically, it requires crafting the golem's body (which is expensive, complicated, and takes a lot of time), and casting load of spells at it. The spells are to give the golems their specific "power", and to force a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth into it, and it to servitude. The spirit is specified to be unwilling, and it is also said to be hostile towards everything on the Material Plane, especially towards the creator. It only obeys the said creator.

Is it Evil Act?

It's not!

SPOILER: Click to show

I haven't found anywhere that creating a golem is an evil act per se. In itself it's probably TN. The Earth Spirit's nature is said to have eluded all researchers.

1) The actual act of "enslaving" the Spirit, is in almost all cases done by using the geas/quest spell, which is an Enchantment (Compulsion) [Language-Dependent, Mind-Affecting] spell - which means that the one casting the spell should probably also know Terran. Enchantment/Mind Affecting, although questionable, isn't evil per se. But it sounds, that like the Enchantment school of magic itself, it might bring interesting IC philosophical discussions.

2) Creating the Flesh Golem isn't marked as evil either, though using a body of a dead person is questionable at best. heh, I missed that one of the spells that has to be cast, has evil descriptor in it. So this would make it an evilish act, and not just questionable.


3) In 2E, Azuth, the TN god of magic, had a priest kit called Golemmaster. It had no alignment requirement for that kit (outside of the priestly alignment requirement to follow that deity).

Many say that golemmasters are touched by a particular madness attributed to Azuth himself. Golemmasters see each golem's fabrication as an active prayer to Azuth, and they are perfectionists when fabricating golems.

4) Further More - creating of Clay Golems can only be done by divine magic, and in 1E the priest doing it had to be Lawful Good in Alignment.

Are Druids Against Golems?

Generally they aren't!

SPOILER: Click to show

I've found 2 quotes that point towards it.

1) Elves have researched Golems for ages. Lost Empires of Faerûn (3E) speaks of Olin Gisiae (plural of PRC called Olin Gisir) - elite elves´n mages that seek knowledge and use it to protect and serve the elven race:

Many of your fellow Olin Gisiae who do not travel learn the art of creating golems, shield guardians, and other loyal constructs that can serve as warriors while their masters stand back and rain down magical destruction on their foes.

2) Strengthen Stone druidic spell from Complete Druid's Handbook (2E) has this passage, that points towards druids actually casting buffs on golems:

If a character casts this spell on a stone golem or other animated stone being (like one created by animnte rock), the mature receives a -1 bonus to its Armor Class and adds a +1 bonus to its saving throws for the duration of the spell. Strengthen stone has no effect on earth elementals or galeb duhr

(-1 to Armor Class in 2E was the same as +1 is in 3E)

Although, if you play the kind of druid that mistrusts arcane spellcasters and clerics on principle, I don't see why you can't rp that YOUR druid is against it.

Can Druid Craft Golems?

I don't know... Possibly?

SPOILER: Click to show

The four golems I looked at, the Clay Golem is the one that can be made by "divine spellcasters".

In 1E specifically, LG clerics are mentioned as the class making them.

2E mentions Priests, without alignment restrictions - and both clerics, druids, and specialty priests are considered priests. So in 2E it would be possible.

3E & 3.5E mention using Resurrection. If you need to cast it yourself - druids can't do it. But if scrolls are OK, then theoretically druids can create them.

At least druid could do the actual manual labor, if not the actual enchantment.

Golems Wall of Text (Quotes): 

SPOILER: Click to show

I'm only going to use the examples of Clay, Flesh, Iron & Stone golems

Monster Manual 3.5e & (3.0 is pretty much same)

Golems are magically created automatons of great power. Constructing one involves the employment of mighty magic and elemental forces.

The animating force for a golem is a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth. The process of creating the golem binds the unwilling spirit to the artificial body and subjects it to the will of the golem's creator.

[...]

Construction
The cost to create given for each golem includes the cost of the physical body and all the materials and spell components that are consumed or become a permanent part of the golem. Creating a golem is essentially similar to creating any sort of magic item 8see page 282 of the Dungeon Master's Guide). However, a golem's body includes costly material components that may require some extra preparation. The golem's crator can assemble the body or hire someone else to do the job. The builder must have the appropriate skill, which varies with the golem variety.

Completing the golem's creation drains the appropriate XP from the creator and requires casting any spells on the final day. The creator must cast the spells personally, but they can come from outside sources, such as scrolls.

The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item (caster level, prerequisite feats and spells, market price, cost to create) are given in summary form at the end of each golems' description, in the same format used in Chater 7 of the Dungeon Master's Guide.

Note The market price of an advanced golem (a golem with more Hit Dice than the typical golem described in each entry) is increased by 5,000 gp for each additional Hit Die, and increased by an additional 50,000 gp if the golem's size increases. The XP cost for creating an advanced golem is equal to 1/25 the advanced golem's market price minus the cost of the of the special materials required.

Clay Golem - Construction
A clay golem’s body must be sculpted from a single block of clay weighing at least 1,000 pounds, treated with rare oils and powders worth 1,500 gp. Creating the body requires a DC 15 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 15 Craft (pottery) check.

CL 11th; Craft Construct (see page 303), animate objects, commune, resurrection, caster must be at least 11th level; Price 40,000 gp; Cost 21,500 gp + 1,540 XP.

Flesh Golem - Construction
The pieces of a flesh golem must come from normal human corpses that have not decayed significantly. Assembly requires a minimum of six different bodies—one for each limb, the torso (including head), and the brain. In some cases, more bodies may be necessary. Special unguents and bindings worth 500 gp are also required. Note that creating a flesh golem requires casting a spell with the evil descriptor.

Assembling the body requires a DC 13 Craft (leatherworking) check or a DC 13 Heal check.

CL 8th; Craft Construct (see page 303), animate dead, bull’s strength, geas/Quest, limited wish, caster must be at least 8th level; Price 20,000 gp; Cost 10,500 gp + 780 XP.

Iron Golem - Construction
An iron golem’s body is sculpted from 5,000 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 10,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL 16th; Craft Construct (see page 303), cloudkill, geas/quest, limited wish, polymorph any object, caster must be at least 16th level; Price 150,000 gp; Cost 80,000 gp + 5,600 XP.

Stone Golem - Construction
A stone golem’s body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, such as granite, weighing at least 3,000 pounds. The stone must be of exceptional quality, and costs 5,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 17 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 17 Craft (stonemasonry) check.

CL 14th; Craft Construct (see page 303), antimagic field, geas/quest, symbol of stunning, caster must be at least 14th level; Price 90,000 gp; Cost 50,000 gp + 3,400 XP.

Tome & Blood (3E):

Building a golem:
The construction and animation of a golem takes two months and costs quite a bit of money. Creating a golem requires an arcane lab (see Chapter 4: Tools of the Trade). You must make the golem’s body (or have it made) and purchase additional materials for the project, as shown below.

Building a golem requires laboring for at least 8 hours each day. When not working on the golem, you must rest and can perform no other activities except eating, sleeping, or talking. If personally constructing the golem’s body, you can perform the building and rituals together. If you miss a day of rituals, the process fails and must be started again. Money spent is lost, but the manual is not consumed. The golem’s body can be reused, as can the laboratory.

Golem	Construction Skills	Body Cost	Total Cost*
Flesh	Craft (leatherworking) or Heal (DC 13)	500 gp	50,000 gp
Clay	Craft (sculpting or masonry) (DC 15)	1,500 gp	**60,000 gp
Stone	Craft (sculpting or masonry) (DC 17)	1,000 gp	80,000 gp
Iron	Craft (armorsmithing or weaponsmithing (DC 20)	1,500 gp	100,000 gp

* Includes the cost of the body.
** Also includes 30,000 gp for vestments, which can be reused.

Monstrous Compendium 2E:

Golems are magically created automatons of great power. The construction of one involves mighty magic and elemental forces.

Background: Golems predate any known literature about their creation. The wizard who discovered the process, if indeed there was only one, is unknown. Some of the rediscoverers have written their secrets in various arcane manuals, enchanted to aid the reader in construction. It is thought that the first golem created was a flesh golem, possibly an accident of some great wizard experimenting with reanimating human bodies. Flesh golems are easier to make than any other sort because they are made of organic material that once lived. Later, the process was generalized to suit certain earthen materials, which produce much stronger golems.

Theory: Golems are all made from elemental material. So far, the great wizards have only discovered haw to use various earthen materials, such as clay, stone. iron, and even glass, to make golems. The exceptions, such as the flesh golem, use organic materials as components. The animating force of the golem is an elemental spirit from the elemental plane of Earth. Since the spirit is not a natural part of the body, it is not affected by most spells or even by most weapons (see individual descriptions). The process of creating the golem binds the unwilling spirit to the artificial body, and enslaves it to the will of the golem's creator. The nature of this spirit is unknown, and has so far eluded the grasp of all researchers. What is known is that it is hostile to all Prime Material plane life forms, especially toward the spell caster that bound it to the golem.

Carving or assembling the golem's physical body is an exacting task. Most spell casters end up hiring skilled labor to do it for them, such as a stone mason or dwarf for stone golems,e tc. if the maker has no experience working in that material, the construction time is doubled. The standard spells for creating golems specify the size fo the creature. Anything bigger or smaller will nto work, although some have investigated spells for other sizes of golems, with limited success.

The costs listed include the base physical body and the unusual materials and spell components that are consumed or become a permanent part of the golem. The rituals used to animate the golem require as much as a full uninterrupted month to complete (included in the time below), though some variants such as the necrophidius and scarecrow reduce that time by employing shortcuts. In all cases the spells used can come from devices, such as wands or scrolls. If a magical tome is used to make the golem, no spells are needed, and the level of the spell caster can be significantly lower.

Type of Golem	Creator	Construction Time	GP Cost
Clay	P17	1 month	65,000
Flesh	W14	2 months	50,000
Iron	W18	4 months	100,000
Stone	W16	3 months	80,000

Flesh Golems
The pieces of the golem must be sewn together from the dead bodies of normal humans that have not decayed significantly. A minimum of 6 different bodies must be used, one for each limb, m e for the torso (with head), and a different one for the brain. In Some cases, more bodies may be necessary to form a complete golem. The spells needed are wish. polymorph any object, geas, protection from normal missiles, and strength.

Clay Golems
Only a lawful good priest can create a day golem. The body is sculpted from a single block of clay weighing at least 1000 pounds, which takes about a month. The vestments, which cost 30,000 gp. are the only materials that are not consumed and can be reused, reducing the total cost after the first golem. The spells used are resurrection, animate object, commune, prayer, and bless.

Stone Golems
A stone golem's body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, such as granite, weighing at least 3000 pounds, which takes 2 months. The rituals to animate require another month. The materials and spell components alone cost 60,000 gold pieces and the spells used are wish, polymorph any object, geas, and slow.

Iron Golems
It takes 5000 pounds of iron, to build the body, which must be done by skilled iron smith. The spells used in the ritual are wish, polymorph any object, geas, and cloud kill. Construction of the body requires an ornate sword which is incorporated into the monster. A magical sword can be used, in which case there is a 50% chance that it is drained of magic when the golem is animated. The golem can only use those abilities of the sword that are automatic. Any property that requires a command word and any sentient ability of the sword is lost. If the sword is ever removed from the golem, it loses all of its magic.

1E AD&D Monster Manual:

Golems are magically created monsters. There are four different sorts, and each will be detailed separately. All but the flesh golem ore created from earthen components. The former is created from the remains of humans. The creation of a golem involves ultra-powerful spells and elemental forces.
[...]

Clay Golem
[...]
A clay golem can be created by a lawful good cleric of 17th or higher level (unless a magical tome is used, in which case a lower level cleric can create one). It requires a resurrection spell, an animate objects spell, a commune spell, a prayer spell, and a bless spell. The cleric must first fashion a man-shaped clay statue, and once this is sculpted the cleric must go through an uninterrupted ritual using the spells delineated. Materials to do the spell require an outlay of 20,000 gold pieces. Vestments for the ritual cost another 30,000 gold pieces, minimum.

Flesh Golem
[...]
A flesh golem can be created by means of a magical tome or by o high-level magic-user employing a wish spell, a polymorph any object, a geas, a protection from normal missiles and a strength spell. The latter case demands a level of magic-use of at least the 14th. The cost in materials is 1,000 gold pieces per hit point of the golem. It requires 1 month to fashion the creature.

Iron Golem
[...]
Construction of an iron golem, bipedal and manlike, requires a magical tome or a magic-user of 18th or higher level employing the following spells: wish, polymorph any object, geas, and cloud kill. The cost in materials is 1,000 gold pieces per hit point, and it requires 3 months construction time.

Stone Golem
[...]
Stone golems of man-like shape are constructed by means of a magical tome or a magic-user of 16th or higher level employing the following spells: wish, polymorph any object, geas, and slow. The cost in materials is 1,000 gold pieces per hit point. and it requires 2 months construction time.

For the Geas Spell:

www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm

[deadbeatbert]

Apr 26, 2016 7:20:13 GMT -5 mandene said:

-Golem Stuff!-

Thank you!

This isn't something I will actively push, but it settles a few questions I had but haven't as yet, had the time to delve into for my guy.

It'll make travelling with summoners a lot more reasonable and even possible to buff them from time to time (I don't currently have enough spells to do that, but you know, down the line.).

[mandene]

Apr 26, 2016 8:27:43 GMT -5 deadbeatbert said:

Apr 26, 2016 7:20:13 GMT -5 mandene said:

-Golem Stuff!-

Thank you!

This isn't something I will actively push, but it settles a few questions I had but haven't as yet, had the time to delve into for my guy.

It'll make travelling with summoners a lot more reasonable and even possible to buff them from time to time (I don't currently have enough spells to do that, but you know, down the line.).

You're welcome. It helps to have good pdf-collection, good search engine (I use AgentRansack), and Awesome Google Fu!
(and experience in quick data/knowledge collection).

[mysticalkas]

Apr 26, 2016 8:40:58 GMT -5 mandene said:

Apr 26, 2016 8:27:43 GMT -5 deadbeatbert said:

Thank you!

This isn't something I will actively push, but it settles a few questions I had but haven't as yet, had the time to delve into for my guy.

It'll make travelling with summoners a lot more reasonable and even possible to buff them from time to time (I don't currently have enough spells to do that, but you know, down the line.).

You're welcome. It helps to have good pdf-collection, good search engine (I use AgentRansack), and Awesome Google Fu!
(and experience in quick data/knowledge collection).

I could not agree more, but you know what helps the most! ........Haveing great people around who can make sense of all these books and tie them together......................... LIKE YOU!!!!!!! .

*elfy hugs*

[Munroe]

Apr 26, 2016 7:20:13 GMT -5 mandene said:

Walls of Text Galore!


After having read about Golems, here's what I found out:

Golems, being constructs, aren't summons. They're treated like expensive magic items that take a lot of time (1 month up) to create and cost from 50k gp up. So they shouldn't be available as summons for druids - and for nobody else for that matter!

Instead, I strongly recommend that they are available to craft as magic items; either ones that have charges per day, or rechargable charges, or simply ones (similar to today) that affect what you summon  - thus making them kinda summons.

I don't understand your reasoning here. Golems are constructs and someone made them. That much is true. There's no specific reason I know that someone couldn't summon a construct though. Summon Monster spells summon extraplanar creatures, typically animals, elementals, or magical beasts; however, there's no reason I've seen that such a spell couldn't summon a construct that someone had built (presumably on another plane).

It's pretty likely that there are golems to be found in Dweomerheart, constructed by arcanists that live or study there. There are definitely constructs in Dweomerheart, as Mystra created the Inevitables (an extraplanar construct race) and they come from Dweomerheart. (They're not from Mechanus in FR 3e, and Mechanus isn't part of FR 3e's World Tree cosmology.) Dweomerheart functions as a city that is also an arcane university, and the plane is a major destination for those who would study magic. It makes sense that the study of golem construction would also be a part of that, and there would be golems there.

[mandene]

Apr 26, 2016 12:26:52 GMT -5 Munroe said:

Apr 26, 2016 7:20:13 GMT -5 mandene said:

Walls of Text Galore!


After having read about Golems, here's what I found out:

Golems, being constructs, aren't summons. They're treated like expensive magic items that take a lot of time (1 month up) to create and cost from 50k gp up. So they shouldn't be available as summons for druids - and for nobody else for that matter!

Instead, I strongly recommend that they are available to craft as magic items; either ones that have charges per day, or rechargable charges, or simply ones (similar to today) that affect what you summon  - thus making them kinda summons.

I don't understand your reasoning here. Golems are constructs and someone made them. That much is true. There's no specific reason I know that someone couldn't summon a construct though. Summon Monster spells summon extraplanar creatures, typically animals, elementals, or magical beasts; however, there's no reason I've seen that such a spell couldn't summon a construct that someone had built (presumably on another plane).

It's pretty likely that there are golems to be found in Dweomerheart, constructed by arcanists that live or study there. There are definitely constructs in Dweomerheart, as Mystra created the Inevitables (an extraplanar construct race) and they come from Dweomerheart. (They're not from Mechanus in FR 3e, and Mechanus isn't part of FR 3e's World Tree cosmology.) Dweomerheart functions as a city that is also an arcane university, and the plane is a major destination for those who would study magic. It makes sense that the study of golem construction would also be a part of that, and there would be golems there.

My biggest reasoning behind the suggestion is the difference I see in the scenarios and their experiences.

You have a mage who spends months if not years on studies of how to make a Golem. Then he spends months learning/finding  the spells, gathering the resources, buying/questing for the expensive spell components finding/founding a suitable laboratory, then either hiring suitable crafters, or spending months on crafting the body of the golem, then badgering it with spells hoping that the thing doesn't break and he has to start from scratch (or at least they don't fail)....

Contra...

Wave your arms and POOOF, there's the Golem.

Of course, you had to first learn the summon spell and find the right item that allows golem. But still, it's like Night and Day.

However you put it, this 2nd experience is really cheap in comparison to the ordeal  in the first one.



To speak against the part where it could be summoned, because it's already created - we have the simple argument that it seems to be so that it's only the golem's crafter that can command it.

But let's for the sake of the argument, say that we ignore it, or that it's easily circumvented, or that I'm wrongly interpreting the source... We're back to the first scenario. Imagine you're the golem's creator. You've spent years, sweat, tears, cash and what not into crafting it. Then when you're just about to command it... POOOF it disapears for hours, because some other mage wiggled his fingers, and it randomly chose your golem. And when it reappears, it's battered up and almost broke. I'm almost sure if that was a possibility, mages would take precaution against it happening to them.



There's of course the third option, where the planar golems somehow gain sentience/autonomy (like being granted it by deities). I don't know if it's possible or not. While doing my search I've seen that some gods use golems as their emissaries, and I haven't bothered to check out what it entails (and if it means they receive sentience/autonomy). It is theoretically possible, because I think Eberron (my knowledge is very limited) has a playable race that in the past were golems used for warfare.

And there's the 4th option, where there's a supply of masterles (like their masters being already dead) golems hanging around, unused and abandoned, and it's what we summon....


However... I still can't get past scenario no 1. And I would LOVE for it to be somehow incorporated into FRC. Not (just) to make it difficult and not cheapen the golem, but to have the wizard experience of crafting it... Adding to the feel of wizard being something more than just a spell machine...

[Animayhem]

I have played on a world where mages in addition to have to learn the summon spell had to have the correct quantity of metal bars.

There is also the god Gond who enables his followers to create golems and golems can be seen in any of his temples.

I do not know if Gond has representation here in FRC.

You have figurines which can summon creatures so I could see maybe an expensive one time use figurine to summon a golem.

So far I have seen only two instances of mages summoning golems one was a minotaur and the other just a basic.

[Munroe]

Apr 26, 2016 13:49:29 GMT -5 mandene said:

And when it reappears, it's battered up and almost broke. I'm almost sure if that was a possibility, mages would take precaution against it happening to them.

Summoned creatures, even those that die while summoned, are restored to their planes of origin unharmed. Called creatures, on the other hand, are actually brought into the plane and can die while called. Summoned creatures obey the commands of the character that summoned them, so, while a golem only serves its master or those its master assigns to command it, I would expect a summoned golem would treat the summoner as its master for the duration of the spell effect.

(In Expedition to Castle Ravenloft [the campaign adventure for D&D 3.5e], there's an example of a summoned creature that obeys commands it hates and would otherwise oppose. A vampire in the adventure summons a celestial dire lion. In the lion's listed tactics, it is mentioned that it must obey the character that summoned it, and its heart breaks with each wound it inflicts.)

Apr 26, 2016 13:49:29 GMT -5 mandene said:

And there's the 4th option, where there's a supply of masterles (like their masters being already dead) golems hanging around, unused and abandoned, and it's what we summon....

I lean more toward the "summoning masterless golems" take on it. Golems do not age and usually don't break except by damage dealt to them. So there are probably a lot of abandoned golems, either buried or mindlessly repeating assigned tasks forever. Some golem types, such as flesh golems and clay golems, also can go berserk. I look at summoning as even a berserk golem would function as a summoned creature under the summoner's command if it were summoned, because of how summoning works. Such a creature might still function as berserk if summoned though. I wouldn't want to be the guy that summoned the Tazmanian Devil into the fray, even if I could point it at my enemies.

[Animayhem]

Druids and Rangers take risks when they use empathy on wild creatures, especially dire bears and such as they can suddenly turn.

Flesh golems are interesting things, could be creatures abandoned by bored necromancers.

Though if I am not mistaken various forms of undead can be summoned by clerics and mages.

[blink]

Apr 26, 2016 15:55:35 GMT -5 Munroe said:

Summoned creatures, even those that die while summoned, are restored to their planes of origin unharmed. Called creatures, on the other hand, are actually brought into the plane and can die while called.

Very good bit of information. - I think there was a great deal of misunderstanding in this regard. Either that, or we've different ideas here at FRC.

[Templar]

the concept of abandoned golems is not feasible considering the number of golems used. anyone who is able to take the time to create such would simply make sure it can't be stolen away so easily. whither they are alive still or not. That and summoning only work on abandoned golems would not be possible because there wouldn't be a way to separate one who's creator is dead or not because the golem was built for a reason and for it to suddenly disappear from its spot would go against its core command.

Summoning golems in game, I see is simply those with the right item to focus their magic to summon beings of pure magic (or energy) in various different forms who then adopt the characteristics of that form, be it golum, undead, animal, insect, etc. wither they become into being when they are summoned or they are pulled from one of the infinite planes, it matters little in my mind.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

AFAIK in general information golem ownership can be transferred (temporarily or otherwise) by the owners issuing a specific command to the golem to follow the commands of another for a time.

If the owner dies as far as I remember the golems keep on keeping on with the last command, but since the owner no longer lives to transfer command to another individual the golem will never opt to follow another unless compelled in some way.

Seems to me the Summon issue falles to what Munroe said. They're bound by the language of how "Summon" works. I see no reason why they would need to be abandoned or not abandoned. Ownership of a golem confers no special immunity to Summonings to golems, though that's likely just because it's not talked about beyond the basic list of spell immunities... I've never seen any language about them being Summoned at all! It's an exploitable grey area, it would seem. Exploitable gray areas are my very favorite things.

The language of Summon is specific. It's not Creation, and it's not Calling. I think we're bound to follow that language and work from there.

There's plenty of room for imagination and creativity... but sometimes things really are written in stone!

TL;DR It's a Summon, so that means it's Summoned. Not Created, not Called and Cound. Further, I see no reason why you're any more likely to Summon away an abandoned golem than you are to Summon away a currently owned golem.