Druids and constructs/summons

[Fenix]

A nice discussion on the subject of golems and their powering. My personal take away from it though is mostly explained in this quote

had always thought that it was some sort of pure elemental force, without thoughts, desires, etc as opposed to the MM "Earth Elemental". Granted, I am not exactly an expert on elementals, but I had always kind of figured that "Elemental" was a pretty wide ranging term - something that perhaps extended beyond the simple entry in the MM.
I was having thoughts a while back about a similar subject, and I do not want to threadjack this subject (its a good one TS) but I was wondering why exactly the force needs to be an EARTH Elemental. It was the center of one of the many queries that I will probably never submit. Why cant you power your golem with alternative sources: Fire, water, air, bio-diesel, etc.?

paizo.com/threads/rzs2gzf7?Morals-and-Golems



And to build on to the elementals being super holy because the elements are super holy to druids, how entirely do we explain weapon enchantments that give elements to blades? Ive seen people roleplay it as binding a very minor elemental using the gems as a catalyst. Others just explain it as "well, magic." Sourcebooks are not set in stone, simply guidelines. Id say its entirely reasonable to figure that constructs could be powered by things other than elemental spirits, or could even have been powered by a spirit that was bargained with.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

Apr 23, 2016 6:11:39 GMT -5 Templar said:

Apr 23, 2016 0:39:17 GMT -5 Syd's Blue Sky said:

Trying to talk to players about poor play and rule violations as a DM is as likely to land the DM in hot water as the player.

? Why ?

Because a lot of times the enforcement or RP standards (Especially when it comes to issues of of RP standards, which is what this thread is... sorta... kinda about I guess) causes severe backlash. People make threads, they complain, they stir up the pot. Even when they're 100% in the wrong, the message that the DMs are soulless tyrants gets shouted loud and clear from the street corner. Obviously the DM team can't just post logs and the like due to confidentiality standards, so... well, we just gotta sit back and sponge up the slings and arrows. Even when people are just making stuff up!

This is why you're not gonna see a lotta enforcement on things like druids rolling out with golems that require an elemental spirit bound into mindless servitude, or a druid having a helmet that says it's metal in the description. It's just not worth the hassle, and no DM wants to be that sorta bad guy. We're here to make sure the place stays fun. We're not those golems from that episode of the X-Files in the planned community that crawl out of the earth and kill you when your light bulb burns out.

Personally, I like to see people flex their imaginations a little to let their characters be their characters. Until the point it gets really severe (Druid in full body plate metal with a Mummy Dust summon?) it's not going to be something that I worry about much. That's just me, though.

[mysticalkas]

Apr 23, 2016 7:58:23 GMT -5 Syd's Blue Sky said:

Apr 23, 2016 6:11:39 GMT -5 Templar said:

? Why ?

Because a lot of times the enforcement or RP standards (Especially when it comes to issues of of RP standards, which is what this thread is... sorta... kinda about I guess) causes severe backlash. People make threads, they complain, they stir up the pot. Even when they're 100% in the wrong, the message that the DMs are soulless tyrants gets shouted loud and clear from the street corner. Obviously the DM team can't just post logs and the like due to confidentiality standards, so... well, we just gotta sit back and sponge up the slings and arrows. Even when people are just making stuff up!

This is why you're not gonna see a lotta enforcement on things like druids rolling out with golems that require an elemental spirit bound into mindless servitude, or a druid having a helmet that says it's metal in the description. It's just not worth the hassle, and no DM wants to be that sorta bad guy. We're here to make sure the place stays fun. We're not those golems from that episode of the X-Files in the planned community that crawl out of the earth and kill you when your light bulb burns out.

Personally, I like to see people flex their imaginations a little to let their characters be their characters. Until the point it gets really severe (Druid in full body plate metal with a Mummy Dust summon?) it's not going to be something that I worry about much. That's just me, though.

*elfy hugs* I understand, it's a Burger King environment *pats his back*

[perspicacity]

The 'unwilling' binding of the spirit of the elemental to create the golem pretty explicitly paints golem construction as (pulling a term from Fenix's link) an unsavory act. My initial reaction was to turn toward the 'nature' (pardon the pun) of sentience. The sentience of an elemental is, to my thinking, unknowable to the average human. Elementals simply 'are' rather than 'struggle to be', wrestling with existential questions and doubts. Does this excuse the unsavory nature of the act? Likely not, but I'd argue it modifies perspective.

The one thing I find most interesting in the wording is that its 'a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth', neatly stepping around the question of individual identity beyond the singularity of 'a spirit'. How does that modify perspective? Does taking the animus from a rightful vessel into another non-rightful vessel play a role in increasing the 'wrongness' of the action from the druid's perspective? Is it 'playing God' in the Gaia sense?

And what about boguns? Does the symbiotic relationship and limited free will pardon the druid who creates such a construct?

Then, of course, in regard to the summoning books, if a golem, by definition, is permanently animated, what's the mechanic behind summoning such? Is it a temporary unwilling binding or the summoning of a previously created golem whose 'creator' has passed?

All very complicated, problematic and tangled. In short, ripe for role-play. I leave you with a poem on the matter by one of my favorite authors.

------------------------

The Golem
Jorge Luis Borges
Translated by James Honzik

If (as affirms the Greek in the Cratylus)
the name is archetype of the thing,
in the letters of “rose” is the rose,
and all the Nile flows through the word.

Made of consonants and vowels,
there is a terrible Name,
that in its essence encodes God’s all,
power, guarded in letters, in hidden syllables.

Adam and the stars knew it in the Garden.
It was corroded by sin (the Cabalists say),
time erased it, and generations
have forgotten.

The artifice and candor of man go on without end.
We know that there was a time in
which the people of God searched for the Name
through the ghetto’s midnight hours.

But not in that manner of those others
whose vague shades insinuate into vague history,
his memory is still green and lives,
Judá the Lion the rabbi of Prague.

In his thirst to know the knowledge of God
Judá permutated the alphabet through complex variations
and in the end
pronounced the name that is the Key

the Door, the Echo, the Guest, and the Palace,
over a mannequin shaped with awkward hands,
teaching it the arcane knowledge of
symbols, of Time and Space.

The simulacrum raised its sleepy eyelids,
saw forms and colors that it did not understand,
and confused by our babble
made fearful movements.

Gradually it was seen to be (as we are)
imprisoned in a reverberating net of
Before, Later, Yesterday, While, Now, Right, Left,
I, You, Those, Others.

The Cabalists who celebrated this mysterium,
this vast creature, named it Golem.
(Written about by Scholem,
in a learned passage of his volume.)

The rabbi explained the universe to him,
“This is my foot, this yours, and this the rope,”
but all that happened, after years,
was that the creature swept the synagogue badly.

Perhaps there was an error in the word
or in the articulation of the Sacred Name;
in spite of the highest esoteric arts
this apprentice of man did not learn to speak.

Its eyes uncanny,
less like man than dog and much less than dog but thing
following the rabbi through the doubtful
shadows of the stones of its confinement.

There was something
abnormal and coarse in the Golem,
at its step the rabbi’s cat fled in fear.
(That cat not from Scholem but of the blind seer)

It would ape the rabbi’s devotions,
raising its hands to the sky,
or bend over, stupidly smiling,
into hollow Eastern salaams.

The rabbi watched it tenderly but
with some horror. How (he said)
could I engender this laborious son?
Better to have done nothing, this is insanity.

Why did I give to the infinite
series a symbol more? To the coiled skein
on which the eternal thing is wound,
I gave another cause, another effect, another grief.

In this hour of anguish and vague light,
on the Golem our eyes have stopped.
Who will say the things to us that God felt,
at the sight of his rabbi in Prague?

Jorge Luis Borges – 1958

[Penguin]

Hmmmm. I have been inspired by this thread. I feel that with the options that FRC has implemented, there are non-metal armor options enough for druids that no druid should be walking around in plate armor, chain mail, or some such purely for mechanics purposes. It will take some effort, but druids can fully equip themselves save possibly a helmet, although as helmets and cloaks share the same AC modifier, a druid could use a hood with an AC cloak and still obtain the highest AC available to them.

I can always look into making a cursed ring of spell failure that I can disperse to druids running around in metal armor.... as I am always open to aiding those with polite requests.

[Fenix]

Apr 24, 2016 13:06:21 GMT -5 Penguin said:

Hmmmm. I have been inspired by this thread. I feel that with the options that FRC has implemented, there are non-metal armor options enough for druids that no druid should be walking around in plate armor, chain mail, or some such purely for mechanics purposes. It will take some effort, but druids can fully equip themselves save possibly a helmet, although as helmets and cloaks share the same AC modifier, a druid could use a hood with an AC cloak and still obtain the highest AC available to them.

I can always look into making a cursed ring of spell failure that I can disperse to druids running around in metal armor.... as I am always open to aiding those with polite requests.

Fun fact, ive actually had dms remove my equipment in past for wearing metal, which is why Fenix has much of the stuff he has, or i worked with dms to just edit some items before they were available (his helm). Id totally be for the cursed ring for the very same principle though, could be interesting to see people roleplay around it. Though it cant remove wildshape, so theres always that.

[Grimnir Gurnison]

There are also crafters available to make you wooden arms and armors. Though remember Gardrak is cheaper than Moriano! *runs away into a dwarf hole*

[Templar]

Apr 24, 2016 13:51:50 GMT -5 Grimnir Gurnison said:

There are also crafters available to make you wooden arms and armors. Though remember Gardrak is cheaper than Moriano! *runs away into a dwarf hole*

And by hole, he means comfort. much like, "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with thing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.

[Animayhem]

Personally I think it unfair to penalize so much. Maybe limit to light and medium armor. Rp is the thing as far as gear. Staying to the higher ends of the tenant faith more important.

Would the proposed restriction be for pure druid and multi-class.

[A Terrible Username]

Apr 24, 2016 18:40:13 GMT -5 Animayhem said:

Personally I think it unfair to penalize so much. Maybe limit to light and medium armor. Rp is the thing as far as gear. Staying to the higher ends of the tenant faith more important.

Would the proposed restriction be for pure druid and multi-class.

Honestly think they are way to lenient on druids here but that's my opinion. -shrug- There's plenty of armors (light to full plate) out there for druids that aren't metal. Helms probably lacking but there are some.

Doesn't matter if druid is multi classed or not. If you break oaths of a druid you lose being a druid.

[StabbingNirvana]

Is there really that big a difference between a set of full plate that has the material "ironwood" over a set of full plate that has no material in the description?

[Viridian Knight]

Yes. . . the standard way of making fullplate is with metal. Working wood into fullplate requires a very different skill set to achieve.

Seriously, This isn't even on topic anymore. If you've choosen to RP a druid character, you've choosen to RP the class with all it's boons and it's restrictions much the same as if you were to choose to RP a paladin, a monk or even a cleric.

I'd rather hope anyone choosing to RP a criminal takes the time to think about what they're playing and any restrictions or cons that may come with such in time.

Here's a question for Stabbing, is there really that big a difference between a paladin who lies often but isn't caught and that of a paladin that doesn't lie at all? It's all about RP, I'll give you a hint, the one lying? he shouldn't be a paladin.

There is equipment from all the various options from cloth to fullplate for a druid to use legally, they even have a number of druid only items and nifty DM items given to them for being a druid. By wanting to forgo a part of the traditions of the class and some of the things that make the class interesting and different, what's the point ?

Honestly I wish there was more equipment for druids available, particularly helmets, but I wish that for all classes as well. To me the servers equipment options are. . . I'll be wearing whatever everyone else does because there's so little variety without a DM gift(which in my experience are beyond rare). . . that said druids have a few interesting items made for them that nobody else can use (some of them can't even be used with UMD).

VK.

[blink]

My druid is literally wearing chainmail, but the armor outfit appearance resembles that of a leafy tunic. - This was before the addition of the newly brought about druid armors. I never felt the need to bother anyone about changing the armor name to something druidy. I don't play the character much anyhow.

[deadbeatbert]

There are plenty of options available in the natural world if strict limitations have to be enforced by the DMs.

I'm already using beetle scale that is available in game, and I am sure that Ankheg plate could be introduced easily if it isn't in the game already. (Still extremely new to Druids, and I've not seen it in thus far, but can't say for certain that it isn't.)

[Templar]

When available item choices are lacking you make due and rp the rest.

[StabbingNirvana]

Apr 24, 2016 20:05:27 GMT -5 Viridian Knight said:

Yes. . . the standard way of making fullplate is with metal. Working wood into fullplate requires a very different skill set to achieve.

Seriously, This isn't even on topic anymore. If you've choosen to RP a druid character, you've choosen to RP the class with all it's boons and it's restrictions much the same as if you were to choose to RP a paladin, a monk or even a cleric.

I'd rather hope anyone choosing to RP a criminal takes the time to think about what they're playing and any restrictions or cons that may come with such in time.

Here's a question for Stabbing, is there really that big a difference between a paladin who lies often but isn't caught and that of a paladin that doesn't lie at all? It's all about RP, I'll give you a hint, the one lying? he shouldn't be a paladin.

There is equipment from all the various options from cloth to fullplate for a druid to use legally, they even have a number of druid only items and nifty DM items given to them for being a druid. By wanting to forgo a part of the traditions of the class and some of the things that make the class interesting and different, what's the point ?

Honestly I wish there was more equipment for druids available, particularly helmets, but I wish that for all classes as well. To me the servers equipment options are. . . I'll be wearing whatever everyone else does because there's so little variety without a DM gift(which in my experience are beyond rare). . . that said druids have a few interesting items made for them that nobody else can use (some of them can't even be used with UMD).

VK.

I don't think this is an equal comparison to make. Paladins lying isn't equal to druids wearing fullplate, which they can on the technicality that it's not metal.

I'm all for sticking to restrictions but eventually there's a time to realize that the a particular set of dragon scale or turtle shell full plate isn't the armor that floats your boat. Is there really a big deal with a druid wearing Irongreave's Fullplate which gives +3 and 5% dmg resistance or the druid wearing Leafy Fullplate which gives +3 5% dmg resistance. I wouldn't want to be limited to wearing two or three sets of armor when investing in the heavy armor feat. Instead of having a shop selling renamed/reskinned items of the same items purchaseable elsewhere to make us all feel better about druids wearing heavy armors, let the player decide the material of the item. Saves time and hassle.

Also, wood could never be worked into a set of full plate, ever. EVER. EVER! Your bet would be putting on a barrel with suspenders then casting ironwood on it.

[Charon's Claw]

If you carve each piece out of a block of wood, like an ice sculpture, I bet you could do something interesting to make wooden full plate. Especially reinforced with a permanent magical enhancement. Overall though, if the items doesn't have a specific material in its description, I'm of a mind it's fair game to call it whatever material (within reason). >.>

*plays cheeky devil's advocate*

[appleseedy]

Apr 24, 2016 19:43:30 GMT -5 A Terrible Username said:

Apr 24, 2016 18:40:13 GMT -5 Animayhem said:

Honestly think they are way to lenient on druids here but that's my opinion. -shrug- There's plenty of armors (light to full plate) out there for druids that aren't metal. Helms probably lacking but there are some.

Doesn't matter if druid is multi classed or not. If you break oaths of a druid you lose being a druid.

i did research once about druid oaths, never found any source to say what they were and whether or not i could just make up my own, does anyone have a link for an actual standard druid oath that all druids have to take?

[mandene]

Apr 25, 2016 1:27:21 GMT -5 appleseedy said:

Apr 24, 2016 19:43:30 GMT -5 A Terrible Username said:

Honestly think they are way to lenient on druids here but that's my opinion. -shrug- There's plenty of armors (light to full plate) out there for druids that aren't metal. Helms probably lacking but there are some.

Doesn't matter if druid is multi classed or not. If you break oaths of a druid you lose being a druid.

i did research once about druid oaths, never found any source to say what they were and whether or not i could just make up my own, does anyone have a link for an actual standard druid oath that all druids have to take?

Mandene has this!


Found in The Complete Druid's Handbook: (2nd Edition)

Initiations. Worthy aspirants seeking to enter the druidic order must be initiated by an inner circle member. The initiation takes place at a moot or in a sacred grove on a holy day. The candidate, after being purified with holy water, takes the druidic oath: a promise to preserve the balance of the world, to follow the druidic ethos, to respect the freedom of other druids in and beyond the circle, to act as a guardian of Nature (or the deity that personifies Nature to the Order), and to live true to the druidic order and keep it secrets safe.

2nd Edition Player's Handbook speaks this of druidic Ethos:

As protectors of nature, druids are aloof from the complications of the temporal world. Their greatest continuation of the orderly and proper cycles of nature-birth, growth, death, and rebirth. Druids tend to view all things as cyclic and thus, the battles of good and evil are only the rising and falling tides of time. Only when the cycle and balance are disrupted does the druid become concerned. Given this view of things, the druid must be neutral in alignment.

Druids are charged with protecting wilderness – in particular trees, wild plants, wild animals, and crops. By association, they are also responsible for their followers and their animals. Druids recognize that all creatures (including humans) need food, shelter, and protection from harm. Hunting, farming, and cutting lumber for homes are logical and necessary parts of the natural cycle. However, druids do not tolerate unnecessary destruction or exploitation of nature for profit. Druids often prefer subtle and devious methods of revenge against those who defile nature. It is well known that druids are both very unforgiving and very patient.

Mistletoe is an important holy symbol to druids and it is a necessary part of some spells (those requiring a holy symbol). To be fully effective, the mistletoe must be gathered by the light of the full moon using a golden or silver sickle specially made for the purpose. Mistletoe gathered by other means halves the effectiveness of a given spell, if it causes damage or has an area of effect, and grants the target a +2 bonus to his saving throw if a saving throw is applicable.

Druids as a class do not dwell permanently in castles, cities, or towns. All druids prefer to live in sacred groves, where they build small sod, log, or stone cottages.

From the same book:

The need to see everyone's point of view, then judge which path best serves druidic interests.

Note that 2nd ed druids were ONLY allowed to be TN in alignment. Also not that sure about mistletoe being important in Forgotten Realms, where there isn't a world-encompassing druidic order -but man regionally/religiously oriented - and that each religion actually has it's own holy symbol, while D&D druids don't even have to follow a deity.

[mandene]

[Enter Rant]
Seriously, why is "RP" a scapegoat for people ignoring D&D rules for classes/races/religions making the Burger King (a.k.a "have it your way") environment? Making things up that doesn't follow rules isn't Role Play!

I mean,if I play a cleric of Lathander that goes around murdering people? Well, if I do, I sure as hell should have to play consequences by loosing connection to the deity! It's Role Play to pay the consequences for your actions - if you don't pay the consequences int's not Role Play.

I could play a lying paladin, or one on a killing spree, or friendly with the evils - since I'm sure few DMs would notice it. But does it make it OK? Is it role play to stay a paladin?

It's meta-getting away with stuff. It's one thing to get away with things, because your character is a smart criminal (though your deity would know!), another is because of meta stuff (like dms not noticing)!

[/End Rant]

[mysticalkas]

Aug 20, 2014 21:33:12 GMT -5 mysticalkas said:

Ok, so the summons for Sylvan creatures for lvl 8 is a Unicorn...This is a very odd summons and one that would not happen especially for a male player...I was wondering some thoughts on this situation. Another question is constructs, what is the view on them and druids using them...There is a lot of reasons to use them IC wise, but then again with the trapped spirit and all there are reasons to not use them...If possible I would like to see what others feel in regards to these two specific situations. Perhaps the summons should be changed to something else? Thanks for your time and patience on this. I am just not sure how to proceed or what to think.

After reading everything I decided it best to not use the construct. I try to see things in the perspective of my character (s), Lore has a lot to do with how I play. I try to see how "living" in Cormyr would actually be for my character, do I make mistakes? Sure lots of them, but I try to adapt as I learn...Ie....Amilith used to summon the Dire Spider, before I learned that spiders are considered spies of Lloth, so..no more summoning spider....That simple, Construct was the same, but what stuck out is throughout the whole conversation one topic remained..the part of "against their will".

Yes, there is Full plate armor out there for Druids....Dragon scale and so forth...My issues at this moment is, one....would Awa'eth really wear it due to where it come from, how it's going to impact his movement through the forests, ect..... STILL NOT DECIDED THIS.....but I am leaning to no.  

Now then, since I am covering stuff that got side tracked from my original post, Yes I have seen tons of people who go against rules just to make it easy for themselves in whatever. You see things that contradict Lore to the extremes here, and everyone gets by with it cause the DM's do not "care" supposedly. But I think that if a DM stepped in and started docking XP or shifting alignments due to our "characters" actions, everyone would start a crap storm about it and pull justifications out their butts. Suffice to say, there is not justification of LORE to support said actions. But dang it all....lets pull something out to make it work for me so I can do whatever I want!

[deadbeatbert]

Apr 25, 2016 8:43:03 GMT -5 mysticalkas said:

Aug 20, 2014 21:33:12 GMT -5 mysticalkas said:

Ok, so the summons for Sylvan creatures for lvl 8 is a Unicorn...This is a very odd summons and one that would not happen especially for a male player...I was wondering some thoughts on this situation. Another question is constructs, what is the view on them and druids using them...There is a lot of reasons to use them IC wise, but then again with the trapped spirit and all there are reasons to not use them...If possible I would like to see what others feel in regards to these two specific situations. Perhaps the summons should be changed to something else? Thanks for your time and patience on this. I am just not sure how to proceed or what to think.

After reading everything I decided it best to not use the construct. I try to see things in the perspective of my character (s), Lore has a lot to do with how I play. I try to see how "living" in Cormyr would actually be for my character, do I make mistakes? Sure lots of them, but I try to adapt as I learn...Ie....Amilith used to summon the Dire Spider, before I learned that spiders are considered spies of Lloth, so..no more summoning spider....That simple, Construct was the same, but what stuck out is throughout the whole conversation one topic remained..the part of "against their will".

Yes, there is Full plate armor out there for Druids....Dragon scale and so forth...My issues at this moment is, one....would Awa'eth really wear it due to where it come from, how it's going to impact his movement through the forests, ect..... STILL NOT DECIDED THIS.....but I am leaning to no.  

Now then, since I am covering stuff that got side tracked from my original post, Yes I have seen tons of people who go against rules just to make it easy for themselves in whatever. You see things that contradict Lore to the extremes here, and everyone gets by with it cause the DM's do not "care" supposedly. But I think that if a DM stepped in and started docking XP or shifting alignments due to our "characters" actions, everyone would start a crap storm about it and pull justifications out their butts. Suffice to say, there is not justification of LORE to support said actions. But dang it all....lets pull something out to make it work for me so I can do whatever I want!

Learning as I go is huge part of Dai's growth.

A friend of his summoned an Iron Golem and someone asked Dai if he was okay with this. It was a very interesting situation.

Well, Dai had never seen one before, nor did he know what it was. It was magic and it belonged to a mage. According to his own isolated opinion that's the mage's business, not Dai's.

Would my Druid summon a construct? Well, he's have to learn what one was first, not just skimming, but proper learning. But if he could grasp it, then no. If he didn't understand what was happening to make the construct come to him like an animal? There's another question.

Then again he only has 10 int. He has average intelligence, so how much could he actually comprehend? Assuming his Lore only covers what he knows about nature and has seen for himself that won't be much help. Would Dai be annoyed at a mage if he knew the abstract laws of summoning constructs? I simply don't know. But then he is wise. The action of the mage isn't affecting his forest and the consequences of the mage's actions are governed by the mage's deity, not his own and the standards of behaviour they are held to are entirely different, so it can't be for him to judge on matters arcane.

So for me, when playing Dai under the current circumstances, it comes down to this -

Let the Druid deal with matters of nature and the mage deal with matters arcane. It's not his job to enforce any of his beliefs on anyone else but to live by a code set by himself based on what he knows about his Gods, which isn't everything automatically just because he is a Druid and I know a lot about the arcane. Doesn't mean he can't be taught, though!

[Animayhem]

In this source it mentions that druids in "general" would not use armor or metal in shields. It does not say can not or should not.

3e Druids:

forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Druids


"When it came to martial ability, all druids were proficient to some degree in the use of light or medium armor.... with the notable exception that druids would not use armor or shields forged from metal."

From same source an example of a god that accepts druids. No where does it say penalty for any armor use.

forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Silvanus

So if a player as an rp reason for lets say wearing chainmail then I say go for it. I would worry more about if the druid is following the tenants of their god and their alignment.

Deadbeat has it in a nutshell:

"Let the Druid deal with matters of nature and the mage deal with matters arcane. It's not his job to enforce any of his beliefs on anyone else but to live by a code set by himself based on what he knows about his Gods, which isn't everything automatically just because he is a Druid. "

[mandene]

Apr 25, 2016 10:28:09 GMT -5 Animayhem said:

In this source it mentions that druids in "general" would not use armor or metal in shields. It does not say can not or should not.

3e Druids:

forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Druids


"When it came to martial ability, all druids were proficient to some degree in the use of light or medium armor.... with the notable exception that druids would not use armor or shields forged from metal."

From same source an example of a god that accepts druids. No where does it say penalty for any armor use.

forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Silvanus

So if a player as an rp reason for lets say wearing chainmail then I say go for it. I would worry more about if the druid is following the tenants of their god and their alignment.

Deadbeat has it in a nutshell:

"Let the Druid deal with matters of nature and the mage deal with matters arcane. It's not his job to enforce any of his beliefs on anyone else but to live by a code set by himself based on what he knows about his Gods, which isn't everything automatically just because he is a Druid. "

The reason that Silvanus doesn't mention it, is because it's a standard. Why would WotC mension it for every single deity that has druids, that this deity forces the druid to not use metal armor.

In contrast note though Mielikki (who I already mentioned as THE exception to the rule), that specifically mentions that she doesn't enforce not having to wear metal armor.

forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mielikki

Generally, druids of Mielikki took on the abilities of rangers and unlike other druids, who were not allowed to wear metal armor, could use all kinds of armor usable by rangers.

Note that this specific passage on the wiki says they don't have citation, but I can assure you it comes straight from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting  and the Faiths & Pantheons (both 3E).

[A Terrible Username]

Apr 25, 2016 10:28:09 GMT -5 Animayhem said:

In this source it mentions that druids in "general" would not use armor or metal in shields. It does not say can not or should not.

3e Druids:

forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Druids


"When it came to martial ability, all druids were proficient to some degree in the use of light or medium armor.... with the notable exception that druids would not use armor or shields forged from metal."

From same source an example of a god that accepts druids. No where does it say penalty for any armor use.

forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Silvanus

So if a player as an rp reason for lets say wearing chainmail then I say go for it. I would worry more about if the druid is following the tenants of their god and their alignment.

Deadbeat has it in a nutshell:

"Let the Druid deal with matters of nature and the mage deal with matters arcane. It's not his job to enforce any of his beliefs on anyone else but to live by a code set by himself based on what he knows about his Gods, which isn't everything automatically just because he is a Druid. "

If you want to go by just wiki here:
"The clergy of Mielikki included clerics, druids (Forestarms) and rangers (Needles).[4] Generally, druids of Mielikki took on the abilities of rangers and unlike other druids, who were not allowed to wear metal armor, could use all kinds of armor usable by rangers."
forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mielikki

[Viridian Knight]

Apr 25, 2016 10:28:09 GMT -5 Animayhem said:

In this source it mentions that druids in "general" would not use armor or metal in shields. It does not say can not or should not.

3e Druids:

forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Druids


"When it came to martial ability, all druids were proficient to some degree in the use of light or medium armor.... with the notable exception that druids would not use armor or shields forged from metal."

From same source an example of a god that accepts druids. No where does it say penalty for any armor use.

forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Silvanus

So if a player as an rp reason for lets say wearing chainmail then I say go for it. I would worry more about if the druid is following the tenants of their god and their alignment.

Deadbeat has it in a nutshell:

"Let the Druid deal with matters of nature and the mage deal with matters arcane. It's not his job to enforce any of his beliefs on anyone else but to live by a code set by himself based on what he knows about his Gods, which isn't everything automatically just because he is a Druid. "

There has been actual source quoted in this thread earlier about the reasons for such alongside the actual rule, including DM Q&A's regarding it. . . . forgottenrealms wikia is not source, it's a wiki, contributed by many people and for the most part converted to 4th and I believe in the works of being converted to 5th edition.   I'd actually consider forgottenrealms wikia and dandwiki as being some of the worst places to quote as source material.

Sadly alot of fluff lore wasn't converted to 3.x and the 2nd edition fluff while expansive there was alot left to the imagination.   

I don't get why people are so hung up on the fact druids can't wear metal armour/shield/helmet, they have been given alternatives, good alternatives in alot of cases they're also the best of that particular item type that isn't DM made or a guild item.  These are traditional oaths, the only exception noted anywhere is literally for followers of Mielikki.  It's not rocket science, if you want to RP a class that comes with restrictions, you are also choosing to RP those restrictions.  

If I was to make a cleric of  Ilmater and proceeded to go around torturing folk that didn't agree with my character I would want a DM to remove my spell casting because I wasn't sticking to the class and dogma of the god in question.    A druid's traditional oaths are a part of the druid class, ditch them and you're removing part of what makes the class different, this thread isn't even about lobbying for a rule change to remove the restriction I don't even know how it got onto such.

if I was to make a paladin that broke all their oaths, their code I would want to fall.

I could go on, but I don't want to.  This is already a rule and has been as long as I've played here and far before that as far as I'm aware.  This is actual source material and a restriction of playing the class much like how paladins, clerics and even monks have their own restrictions.

VK.

[Fluffy the Mad]

Just so we have an actual quote on the Mielikki stuff...

From Faiths and Pantheons page 48:

'Her druids may use armor and weapons allowed to rangers and not be in violation of their sacred oaths.'

Silvanus and Chanteau have no similar mention, but I have yet to check all of the possible druidic deities.

Edit: Adding in the druidic proficiencies from the 3.5 Player's Handbook while I'm rooting through this stuff.

'The armor of a druid is restricted by traditional oaths to the items noted in Weapon and Armor Proficiency (Below). All other armor is prohibited. Through a druid could learn to wear full plate, putting it on would violate her oath and suppress her druidic powers.

Druids avoid carrying much worked metal with them because it interferes with the pure and primal nature they attempt to embody.'

A note on the proficiency list below says this:

'A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.'

All of this means, in my opinion, that there really are oaths restricting druids to those proficiencies. Even if a druid were to gain the requisite feats through multiclassing, the only deity allowing some change so far is Mielikki. Even they only gain (by the PHB, not NWN) simple, martial, shield, and light armor proficiency. Any druid that wishes to remain a regularly-casting druid needs to stick to the sadly pathetic list of druid weapons and non-metal armors.

I haven't found anything really additional or contradictory in my other books, including the FRCS and Masters of the Wild.

[mandene]

Apr 25, 2016 10:57:23 GMT -5 Viridian Knight said:

Apr 25, 2016 10:28:09 GMT -5 Animayhem said:

In this source it mentions that druids in "general" would not use armor or metal in shields. It does not say can not or should not.

3e Druids:

forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Druids


"When it came to martial ability, all druids were proficient to some degree in the use of light or medium armor.... with the notable exception that druids would not use armor or shields forged from metal."

From same source an example of a god that accepts druids. No where does it say penalty for any armor use.

forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Silvanus

So if a player as an rp reason for lets say wearing chainmail then I say go for it. I would worry more about if the druid is following the tenants of their god and their alignment.

Deadbeat has it in a nutshell:

There has been actual source quoted in this thread earlier about the reasons for such alongside the actual rule, including DM Q&A's regarding it. . . . forgottenrealms wikia is not source, it's a wiki, contributed by many people and for the most part converted to 4th and I believe in the works of being converted to 5th edition.   I'd actually consider forgottenrealms wikia and dandwiki as being some of the worst places to quote as source material.

Sadly alot of fluff lore wasn't converted to 3.x and the 2nd edition fluff while expansive there was alot left to the imagination.   

I don't get why people are so hung up on the fact druids can't wear metal armour/shield/helmet, they have been given alternatives, good alternatives in alot of cases they're also the best of that particular item type that isn't DM made or a guild item.  These are traditional oaths, the only exception noted anywhere is literally for followers of Mielikki.  It's not rocket science, if you want to RP a class that comes with restrictions, you are also choosing to RP those restrictions.  

If I was to make a cleric of  Ilmater and proceeded to go around torturing folk that didn't agree with my character I would want a DM to remove my spell casting because I wasn't sticking to the class and dogma of the god in question.    A druid's traditional oaths are a part of the druid class, ditch them and you're removing part of what makes the class different, this thread isn't even about lobbying for a rule change to remove the restriction I don't even know how it got onto such.

if I was to make a paladin that broke all their oaths, their code I would want to fall.

I could go on, but I don't want to.  This is already a rule and has been as long as I've played here and far before that as far as I'm aware.  This is actual source material and a restriction of playing the class much like how paladins, clerics and even monks have their own restrictions.

VK.

Out of curiosity I looked on the Interwebs for possible reasoning behind the rule (there are a few interesting out there). I found there though(If I remember correctly)that 4E Removed it as a rule and only used a fluff wording, that druids just "won't" wear metal, without actual consequences if they did. And 5e removes it alltogether. Though they also remove srcane spell failure, so wizards in full plate will be there. Instead magic is remade for better game balance....

so basically the wiki isn't going to be useful....

[Penguin]

This has turned into a fascinating discussion that has evolved from the ethics of druids using constructs to multiple ideas about RP vs player convenience.

To clear a couple points. FRC is a server that has always depended on players holding themselves to a high standard of RP in order to create an immersive server where stories can be be played out in a forgotten realms setting. The entire point of creating a character on this server is to involve yourself in a story of a person of their alignments, classes, races, skill sets, and all other facets that go into making them. It is not to scrape for powergaming meta knowledge tweaks to increase the convenience of the player. The DM staff when they log on come here to spend time creating stories, spicing events, solving problems for players, and in general making the server an enjoyable place to be. We do not log on to nit pick every tiny little detail or police the players unless an egregious situation arises. This does not however mean that we are condoning utilizing facets and loopholes of the NWN engine for players to tweak out and convenience their players. Are we going to come around and carefully study every character with a spyglass and critique their RP? No. We have neither the time nor the patience for that, especially if we want to enhance the server. These sorts of standards we rely on players to hold themselves to so we do not have to. Every character that comes into the server first passes the wizard's questions, and are given a reminder that this is an RP server. They are asked to keep their character IC at all times. Not when its convenient, not only when they know a DM is watching them.f

I am all for discussions on character beliefs and actions, but when I see players start talking about "No DM really cares" it frustrates me, because I promise if the entire DM team decided to start showing how much they care about character accuracy, many players will become angry and feel unjustly targeted. The DM teams does care. We care so much for our players to have fun and enjoy FRC that we choose to not be the nit picking frustration inducing team that our little hearts occasionally want us to be.

So when you find yourself being addressed by a DM in game about some matter, large or small, please remember that the DM is choosing to show they care about you by taking time from creating adventures, making items, dropping XP. they are trying to help you enhance your RP, or give suggestions about how you could improve your or other players experiences on the server. They are not "laying down the hammer." The hammer only comes for griefers, or blatant abusers of the engine for server.

So play on FRC, keep it IC, and make stories the bards will sing long after we are all dust and ashes.

[mandene]

Apr 25, 2016 11:20:37 GMT -5 Fluffy the Mad said:

[...]
All of this means, in my opinion, that there really are oaths restricting druids to those proficiencies. Even if a druid were to gain the requisite feats through multiclassing, the only deity allowing some change so far is Mielikki. Even they only gain (by the PHB, not NWN) simple, martial, shield, and light armor proficiency. Any druid that wishes to remain a regularly-casting druid needs to stick to the sadly pathetic list of druid weapons and non-metal armors.

I haven't found anything really additional or contradictory in my other books, including the FRCS and Masters of the Wild.
[...]

It is possible that this rule, together with priest only being able to use bludgeoning weapons, except for the one favored by his deity (a rule no longer used in 3E),was an rp "(dis)advantage" for the classes, to balance their perceived "overpowerfulness". It's much easier to see a difference between a paladin, a cleric, and a druid by the flavor in what they wear and how they behave. The paladin with his sword and shiny armor, the priest with his bludgeoning weapon, and the druid with his wild-looks - like armaments used of bone/stone/leather what has you, especially since they don't want to be confused with the clerics. 2E was much more into disadvantages and advantages being in the role-play spectrum rather than purely mechanical ones. And as Viridian Knight already stated, much of that "fluff" has been lost, or assumed to be already known by the players.

[Edit]

To remove some of the confusion wether Silvanus allows/disallows metal (and Mielikki being an exception), here's what Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3E) says about Druids.

Like clerics, the druids of Faerûn receive their spells from a particular patron deity, always a deity of nature or animals. However, druids do not necessarily see a clear division between nature and the divine forces that run through nature. While many people think only of forests when they think fo druids, druids care also for the mountains, deserts, lakes, and even the swamps of Faerûn.

Nature deities include Chauntea, Eldath, Gwaeron Windstrom, Lurue, Malar, Mielikki, Nobanion, Shallia, Silvanus, Talos, Ubtao, Ulutiu, Umberlee, Anhur, Isis, Osiris, Sebek, Set, Thard Harr, Aedrie Faenya, Angharrradh, Deep Sashelas, Rilifane Rallathil, Baervan Wildwanderer, Segojan Earthcaller, and Sheela Peryroyl.

Mielikki, who is famous for the number of druid/rangers who worship her, has more lenient spiritual oaths than most deities that druids worship in the Realms. Druids of Mielikki can use any of the standard armor or weapons that rangers normally use (all simple and martial weapons, all light and medium armor, and all shields) without violating their spiritual oaths.

Although the book uses the word "than most deities", I haven't seen that any of the other deities on this list is lenient, though I admit I don't remember the ethos of ALL of them, especially the Mulhorandi ones . Maybe someone else than just Fluffy the Mad feels like looking this up.