Druids and constructs/summons

[mysticalkas]

Ok, so the summons for Sylvan creatures for lvl 8 is a Unicorn...This is a very odd summons and one that would not happen especially for a male player...I was wondering some thoughts on this situation. Another question is constructs, what is the view on them and druids using them...There is a lot of reasons to use them IC wise, but then again with the trapped spirit and all there are reasons to not use them...If possible I would like to see what others feel in regards to these two specific situations. Perhaps the summons should be changed to something else? Thanks for your time and patience on this. I am just not sure how to proceed or what to think.

[Vulpix89]

It's a matter of personal preference and flavor I guess.

In my opinion there's a good amount of choice for druidic summons since there's the standard animals and the custom "improved" ones. The Sylvan summons feel like they're more suited for an elven or human druid. I might consider constructs with a gnomish/dwarven druid. There's maybe a case to be made for a Talonaite druid using undead summons.. would have to check the lore on that.

[EDM Entori]

Constructs can be seen as a natural enemy to druids, depending on point of view.

fr wiki has this to say:

druids value the pristine wilderness, accepting its cruelty and ugliness along with its wonder and beauty, but harboring a deep hate for that which twists or violates the laws of the natural world, such as aberrations or undead. As such, while druids rarely act selfishly, they are nonetheless as likely to be good or evil.

so citing that, and that druids are not able to use "metal" armaments. Aberrations for the record are creatures of magical nature, yet twisted. Ettercap, Owl Bear, and beholders all count as aberration.

also remember that druids value nature above all things.


So, a construct is a act of taking what is ornate, mundane and non magical, and giving it movement through typically arcane means. of course your "summoning" these mechanical beings so druids can't get around that part. BUT druids value nature, they cannot use weapons of metal or armor, instead they use natural materials such as iron wood. So these constructs, are typically, from a druids eyes, creatures given life via magic, not nature. They are not an elemental, which is the hall-mark of nature, a creature of the elements. They are constructed to do a bidding. So I would think that most druids, especially druids weary of arcane magic, would not use the constructs summon options, especially given they are sold by an arcane vendor. also they would not polymorph into such either.

[Vulpix89]

I'm curious on how it is explained that druids use sickles, daggers, scimitars and spears all of which have metal components?

[sheisdeadly]

Aug 20, 2014 23:55:27 GMT -5 Vulpix89 said:

I'm curious on how it is explained that druids use sickles, daggers, scimitars and spears all of which have metal components?

I agree I too wonder this? Good question.

[Fenix]

Aug 21, 2014 0:43:31 GMT -5 sheisdeadly said:

Aug 20, 2014 23:55:27 GMT -5 Vulpix89 said:

I'm curious on how it is explained that druids use sickles, daggers, scimitars and spears all of which have metal components?

I agree I too wonder this? Good question.

Druids are restricted from using ARMOR that is metal, not armaments. If the object offers protective benefit of a sort, such as a helmet, a chest piece, or guantlets/bracers, the druid cannot use it without sacrificing their divine abilities for 24 hours. However, they are permitted to use metallic blades and weapons.

[Fenix]

Aug 20, 2014 23:42:22 GMT -5 EDM Entori said:

Constructs can be seen as a natural enemy to druids, depending on point of view.

fr wiki has this to say:

druids value the pristine wilderness, accepting its cruelty and ugliness along with its wonder and beauty, but harboring a deep hate for that which twists or violates the laws of the natural world, such as aberrations or undead. As such, while druids rarely act selfishly, they are nonetheless as likely to be good or evil.

so citing that, and that druids are not able to use "metal" armaments. Aberrations for the record are creatures of magical nature, yet twisted. Ettercap, Owl Bear, and beholders all count as aberration.

also remember that druids value nature above all things.


So, a construct is a act of taking what is ornate, mundane and non magical, and giving it movement through typically arcane means. of course your "summoning" these mechanical beings so druids can't get around that part. BUT druids value nature, they cannot use weapons of metal or armor, instead they use natural materials such as iron wood. So these constructs, are typically, from a druids eyes, creatures given life via magic, not nature. They are not an elemental, which is the hall-mark of nature, a creature of the elements. They are constructed to do a bidding. So I would think that most druids, especially druids weary of arcane magic, would not use the constructs summon options, especially given they are sold by an arcane vendor. also they would not polymorph into such either.

But at the same time, I would like to put in, one could argue that arcane magic is in fact a -part- of nature, and the natural world. Magic flows through all things, and can create or destroy from there. Druids also have the potential to enchant and give life to things through their own spell effects, as you will see through a variety of PNP spells. Now, taking that into account, a druid could in theory create the husk of the stone giant with a bunch of loose rocks, and request an elemental's aid to empower the being.


Much of the druidic oaths center more about the tireless and wasteful destruction of the lands and corruption of nature, rather than small ornate trinkets and such. If you built a city or undead or a city of undead, that would be against the druid's ways. But perhaps building something that properly utilized the bounties of the land in a manner that did not wastefully destroy the environment would be more acceptable, which is why druids often get along well with elves. Elves build their homes within the trees, or their structures adapting to the environment. They use magic to often shape such creations, just as magic once shaped the lands and influences life on the daily.


I do not feel a druid would be against constructs, but for them either. I am in the belief that they would exist in a middle ground, seeing them as being able to do both good and bad depending on the creator's intent.

Not gonna go into the shifter mindset for this one. That is...so much more...

[maeglhachel]

Aug 21, 2014 1:05:27 GMT -5 Fenix said:

But at the same time, I would like to put in, one could argue that arcane magic is in fact a -part- of nature, and the natural world. Magic flows through all things, and can create or destroy from there.
...
I do not feel a druid would be against constructs, but for them either. I am in the belief that they would exist in a middle ground, seeing them as being able to do both good and bad depending on the creator's intent.

I'd totally agree that magic is part of nature in FR. (Tari wholeheartedly takes that view, too.)
Without having thought this through, for druids and constructs, I still feel this is kinda like how IRL genes are part of nature but cloning people might still be crossing a line for somebody who believes things should work according to nature's plan.

[mysticalkas]

Here is a list of animals I feel might be swaped out for the Unicorn summons, what are your thoughts on this as well. I spoke with DM Penguin, so I am trying to come up with a replacement.

1. Dragonne

2. Girallon

3. Griffon

4. Golden Protector Celestial Half-Dragon Lammasu

5. Treant

6. Wyvern

I do thank everyone for their thoughts so far, I am trying to understand and get a better frame of mind concerning constructs. I am not able to cast lvl 9 yet so I dont know what that summons is lol.

[maeglhachel]

Don't want to keep better summons from coming your way, just ...
When I read you were getting unicorns I seriously thought about bringing Julie back. She's always wanted to become a Beloved of Valarian ... now she wouldn't even need a DM to ride a unicorn
Guess, what I'm saying is: I wouldn't mind keeping the unicorn as an option ... don't mind me too much, though


Oh, and when I think of the Steelfields ... wyverns? ... watch what you're asking for ... you'll never be able to click on anything, again, with one of the big ones around you.

[FlyingMidget]

Aug 21, 2014 1:05:27 GMT -5 Fenix said:

But at the same time, I would like to put in, one could argue that arcane magic is in fact a -part- of nature, and the natural world. Magic flows through all things, and can create or destroy from there. Druids also have the potential to enchant and give life to things through their own spell effects, as you will see through a variety of PNP spells. Now, taking that into account, a druid could in theory create the husk of the stone giant with a bunch of loose rocks, and request an elemental's aid to empower the being.

This I actually heavily disagree on.  A druid might not become outright hostile to somebody making use of a golem, depending on their own oaths, beliefs and personality.  However the creation of a golem while construction, it isn't just animated through arcane magic, golems are animated through the binding and enslaving of an earth elemental within the construct against it's will and that is something most druids would be very much against, being that elementals are essentially the spirits of the natural world. 

The issue with metal armour and druids is that being surrounded by such, as it never had life is considered unnatural and interferes with their ability to commune with the land.  Weapons and tools don't have that issue as they aren't surrounding the druid.  The only druids that I am aware of that can wear metal armour, helmet, shield are druids of Mielikki who allows her druids to wear anything that her rangers would.  That being shields, helmets and medium armour made of metal, otherwise you need to seek out something else such as iron wood or dragon hide armour if you wish something heavier.

FM.

[mysticalkas]

I guess the summon Unicorn would be good for females, but they are magical creatures that are rarely ever seen and even less so if you are a male. The suggestions are just what I looked at around midnight...I am dropping ideas that seemed right at that time lol...tired time but they looked like something possible to use to replace the unicorn...does anyone know what the lvl 9 sylvan summons is???

[Penguin]

I will just say that wyverns and treants can already be summoned.

[DM Grizwald]

Aug 21, 2014 8:05:09 GMT -5 FlyingMidget said:

Aug 21, 2014 1:05:27 GMT -5 Fenix said:

But at the same time, I would like to put in, one could argue that arcane magic is in fact a -part- of nature, and the natural world. Magic flows through all things, and can create or destroy from there. Druids also have the potential to enchant and give life to things through their own spell effects, as you will see through a variety of PNP spells. Now, taking that into account, a druid could in theory create the husk of the stone giant with a bunch of loose rocks, and request an elemental's aid to empower the being.

This I actually heavily disagree on.  A druid might not become outright hostile to somebody making use of a golem, depending on their own oaths, beliefs and personality.  However the creation of a golem while construction, it isn't just animated through arcane magic, golems are animated through the binding and enslaving of an earth elemental within the construct against it's will and that is something most druids would be very much against, being that elementals are essentially the spirits of the natural world. 

The issue with metal armour and druids is that being surrounded by such, as it never had life is considered unnatural and interferes with their ability to commune with the land.  Weapons and tools don't have that issue as they aren't surrounding the druid.  The only druids that I am aware of that can wear metal armour, helmet, shield are druids of Mielikki who allows her druids to wear anything that her rangers would.  That being shields, helmets and medium armour made of metal, otherwise you need to seek out something else such as iron wood or dragon hide armour if you wish something heavier.

FM.

Had I seen this post earlier I might have chimed in with my thoughts, but this pretty much sums it up. Well said FM. Constructs should be seen as a violation of the natural world in my opinion.

I have always played it that way and even had some amazing rp come from it. I'm looking at you Entori.

[mysticalkas]

Well give me some credit here, I am working on it lol. Finding a replacement for the Unicorn is difficult because there are not so many to choose from, at least what I could find. If anyone has suggestions I would greatly appreciate it. The construct I get the point everyone is trying to make...Perhaps a ruling and post should be made about it so new players and people who do not play nature characters to be able to read. I just wanted to get some clarification on the matter since it was all a bit iffy. So lets find a summons to replace a Unicorn...Ancient Gold Dragon sounds good to me!!!!!!!!!!

[maeglhachel]

Gorgon ... and suddenly stone2flesh gets used a lot more

[Vulpix89]

First of all, I preface this by saying that balance is just a word someone made up. The ultimate enlightened approach is to realize that all life is pointless and it ultimately wouldn't matter if everything was destroyed, that is likely the ultimate end for life anyway, as the universe is slowly dieing out.

BUT from a druids perspective, they want to preserve nature in its current state (with trees and animals ect). Nature (as a druid perceives it) in our world is being destroyed and changed by humans and civilization. FR however, has -even more- threats to "nature". This is why we need druids, to help protect and maintain that ideal of nature in a world where in reality it would be ravaged. The bottom line is that "nature" wouldn't be able to survive in a world full of kingdoms, fire balls, countless goblins and orcs, dragons and such. They are all destructive creatures who expand and grow in size and power all of the time.

The reason druids exist is because nature (as I see it, animals and plants) are at a massive disadvantage in FR because there's too much out there ready to damage it. The civilizations aren't very aware or responsible with how they treat nature and also there are countless monsters and destructive magics in FR. So that's why nature needs protectors like druids and dryads and fairies. Druids are not here to protect massive magical creatures like dragons. Any druid who feels the need to protect dragons is missing the point because a dragon doesn't need protecting. Nature in itself is balanced, what isn't a balanced part of nature is a massive winged beast who can talk, breath fire and has an evil, uncaring temperament.

Green Dragon:
Personality
They are mean-tempered, cruel, and rude. These dragons love intrigue and secrets. They delight in stalking their enemies and listening in for any information they can gather before moving to attack. Green dragons enjoy consuming elves and fey creatures – especially pixies.

In the game it's all fine because everything respawns all the time but in reality I could see a massive unbalance of the world if these creatures weren't kept in check or at least not actively -helped-. It's silly for a druid to be all bestest friends with a dragon because "Hey, they're part of the balance of the world!" because in reality the druids very presence on the world is to KEEP the balance DESPITE these massive destructive beasts. So the next time I see a druid gets all puppy eyed at a baby dragon egg, perhaps the best thing to do is to not go too far out of your way to protect it. Some times in nature letting the baby crocodile die is in the best interests of the overall balance of the world and in the case of dragons a druid should be doing their best to keep them in check.


-------------------


The short version of this post is that I don't think druids should be allies with dragons, quite the opposite.

[Vulpix89]

More on topic. Why exactly is it so odd for a male character have a unicorn? Am I missing something?

EDIT - Okay, it says "Unicorns are attracted to innocence; particularly young maidens." But that implies natural attraction. When a minion is conjured it is brought to the aid of the summoner, surely regardless of gender (or age?). It doesn't really say that unicorns have a problem with males or old people, just that they are generally attracted towards "young maidens"? I don't see this as a problem.

[maeglhachel]

Aug 22, 2014 4:18:50 GMT -5 Vulpix89 said:

More on topic. Why exactly is it so odd for a male character have a unicorn? Am I missing something?

EDIT - Okay, it says "Unicorns are attracted to innocence; particularly young maidens." But that implies natural attraction. When a minion is conjured it is brought to the aid of the summoner, surely regardless of gender (or age?). It doesn't really say that unicorns have a problem with males or old people, just that they are generally attracted towards "young maidens"? I don't see this as a problem.

Yeah, the MM says something like:

Lone unicorns occasionally allow themselves to be tamed and ridden by good human or elven maidens of pure heart. Such a unicorn, if treated kindly, is the maiden’s loyal steed and protector for life, even accompanying her beyond its forest

That, too, might not mean guys couldn't summon them.
I suppose the idea is influenced heavily by the real-world unicorn legends where they would only show themselves to young, virgin women.

[Pedantry INC]

Aug 22, 2014 4:07:00 GMT -5 Vulpix89 said:

The short version of this post is that I don't think druids should be allies with dragons, quite the opposite.

I recommend you read up on the Druid Dragon, Gildenfire, whom is an Ancient Golden Dragon whom serves Mielikki and was taught by the Grand High Druid of the North.

forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Aerosclughpalar

[Vulpix89]

Aug 22, 2014 5:14:10 GMT -5 Pedantry INC said:

Aug 22, 2014 4:07:00 GMT -5 Vulpix89 said:

The short version of this post is that I don't think druids should be allies with dragons, quite the opposite.

I recommend you read up on the Druid Dragon, Gildenfire, whom is an Ancient Golden Dragon whom serves Mielikki and was taught by the Grand High Druid of the North.

forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Aerosclughpalar

That's a gold (good) dragon. Also, with intelligent creatures there will always be exceptions, but I was talking about the destructive majority of chromatic dragons.

[Fenix]

Aug 22, 2014 4:07:00 GMT -5 Vulpix89 said:

First of all, I preface this by saying that balance is just a word someone made up. The ultimate enlightened approach is to realize that all life is pointless and it ultimately wouldn't matter if everything was destroyed, that is likely the ultimate end for life anyway, as the universe is slowly dieing out.

BUT from a druids perspective, they want to preserve nature in its current state (with trees and animals ect). Nature (as a druid perceives it) in our world is being destroyed and changed by humans and civilization. FR however, has -even more- threats to "nature". This is why we need druids, to help protect and maintain that ideal of nature in a world where in reality it would be ravaged. The bottom line is that "nature" wouldn't be able to survive in a world full of kingdoms, fire balls, countless goblins and orcs, dragons and such. They are all destructive creatures who expand and grow in size and power all of the time.

The reason druids exist is because nature (as I see it, animals and plants) are at a massive disadvantage in FR because there's too much out there ready to damage it. The civilizations aren't very aware or responsible with how they treat nature and also there are countless monsters and destructive magics in FR. So that's why nature needs protectors like druids and dryads and fairies. Druids are not here to protect massive magical creatures like dragons. Any druid who feels the need to protect dragons is missing the point because a dragon doesn't need protecting. Nature in itself is balanced, what isn't a balanced part of nature is a massive winged beast who can talk, breath fire and has an evil, uncaring temperament.

Green Dragon:
Personality
They are mean-tempered, cruel, and rude. These dragons love intrigue and secrets. They delight in stalking their enemies and listening in for any information they can gather before moving to attack. Green dragons enjoy consuming elves and fey creatures – especially pixies.

In the game it's all fine because everything respawns all the time but in reality I could see a massive unbalance of the world if these creatures weren't kept in check or at least not actively -helped-. It's silly for a druid to be all bestest friends with a dragon because "Hey, they're part of the balance of the world!" because in reality the druids very presence on the world is to KEEP the balance DESPITE these massive destructive beasts. So the next time I see a druid gets all puppy eyed at a baby dragon egg, perhaps the best thing to do is to not go too far out of your way to protect it. Some times in nature letting the baby crocodile die is in the best interests of the overall balance of the world and in the case of dragons a druid should be doing their best to keep them in check.


-------------------


The short version of this post is that I don't think druids should be allies with dragons, quite the opposite.

Along that same line of thinking, druids should be against all fey and sylvan creatures simply on the premise that they are magical creatures. Some would have destructive tendancies, such as pixies and faerie dragons, because they are natural pranksters and thieves. Pranks often involve pain caused and can cause fires etc. Some nymphs in folklore were known to capture and eat people.

Dragons are magical creatures, but they are also a natural race, one of the oldest in faerun. Should druids not hate elves? They are two legged ancient beings of magic that are deathless and have an amazing grasp of the arcane, which can be a destructive force itself. Should a druid not just slaughter an elven child to prevent its possible destruction?

Part of a druid keeping the balance of the world is knowing where it is best for adaptation, a course of the natural cycle, to take over entirely. Such is a thought most keep in mind when we have to consider cities. Druids can and very well could just eradicate all cities from the face of the earth, as they are things that destroy the natural order and balance. Humans and humanoid races destroy the forests to create their monuments, deforest the area to make lavish worthless trinkets, and hunt for sport rather than necessity. What does a dragon do in comparison? Occupy a cave and steal the possessions of humans. I dont see dragons going around to burn down forests for the hell of it. In fact, green dragons often live among them.

You also forget that many dragon variations, with gold being a great example, are allied with society. They protect over humanoid races, or learn about them.

Nature is all about balance and change. Part of a druids ultimate job is knowing that you cannot fiz every small detail, as nature is constantly changing, and so too is the world around it. Everything adapts to fit in, and can ultimately work in harmony when balance comes to be restored. Even civilization, as displayed by elven constructions and cities, can become a beautiful and non destructive part of nature.



Also, other good aligned metallic dragon colors you can recall are brass, bronze, copper, gold, silver, adamantite, mithral, cobalt, mercury, orium, and steel (whom are known to masquerade as humans to help and learn of their society). Compared to the chromatics of black, blue, green, white, red, brown, orange, purple, grey and this is withiut getting into the mixes of gem dragons and shadow dragons and such.


Really the only truly horrid dragons would likely be dracolich. Which are not naturally created to begin with.

[Vulpix89]

Aug 22, 2014 6:36:58 GMT -5 Fenix said:

Aug 22, 2014 4:07:00 GMT -5 Vulpix89 said:

First of all, I preface this by saying that balance is just a word someone made up. The ultimate enlightened approach is to realize that all life is pointless and it ultimately wouldn't matter if everything was destroyed, that is likely the ultimate end for life anyway, as the universe is slowly dieing out.

BUT from a druids perspective, they want to preserve nature in its current state (with trees and animals ect). Nature (as a druid perceives it) in our world is being destroyed and changed by humans and civilization. FR however, has -even more- threats to "nature". This is why we need druids, to help protect and maintain that ideal of nature in a world where in reality it would be ravaged. The bottom line is that "nature" wouldn't be able to survive in a world full of kingdoms, fire balls, countless goblins and orcs, dragons and such. They are all destructive creatures who expand and grow in size and power all of the time.

The reason druids exist is because nature (as I see it, animals and plants) are at a massive disadvantage in FR because there's too much out there ready to damage it. The civilizations aren't very aware or responsible with how they treat nature and also there are countless monsters and destructive magics in FR. So that's why nature needs protectors like druids and dryads and fairies. Druids are not here to protect massive magical creatures like dragons. Any druid who feels the need to protect dragons is missing the point because a dragon doesn't need protecting. Nature in itself is balanced, what isn't a balanced part of nature is a massive winged beast who can talk, breath fire and has an evil, uncaring temperament.

Green Dragon:
Personality
They are mean-tempered, cruel, and rude. These dragons love intrigue and secrets. They delight in stalking their enemies and listening in for any information they can gather before moving to attack. Green dragons enjoy consuming elves and fey creatures – especially pixies.

In the game it's all fine because everything respawns all the time but in reality I could see a massive unbalance of the world if these creatures weren't kept in check or at least not actively -helped-. It's silly for a druid to be all bestest friends with a dragon because "Hey, they're part of the balance of the world!" because in reality the druids very presence on the world is to KEEP the balance DESPITE these massive destructive beasts. So the next time I see a druid gets all puppy eyed at a baby dragon egg, perhaps the best thing to do is to not go too far out of your way to protect it. Some times in nature letting the baby crocodile die is in the best interests of the overall balance of the world and in the case of dragons a druid should be doing their best to keep them in check.


-------------------


The short version of this post is that I don't think druids should be allies with dragons, quite the opposite.

Along that same line of thinking, druids should be against all fey and sylvan creatures simply on the premise that they are magical creatures. Some would have destructive tendancies, such as pixies and faerie dragons, because they are natural pranksters and thieves. Pranks often involve pain caused and can cause fires etc. Some nymphs in folklore were known to capture and eat people.

Dragons are magical creatures, but they are also a natural race, one of the oldest in faerun. Should druids not hate elves? They are two legged ancient beings of magic that are deathless and have an amazing grasp of the arcane, which can be a destructive force itself. Should a druid not just slaughter an elven child to prevent its possible destruction?

Part of a druid keeping the balance of the world is knowing where it is best for adaptation, a course of the natural cycle, to take over entirely. Such is a thought most keep in mind when we have to consider cities. Druids can and very well could just eradicate all cities from the face of the earth, as they are things that destroy the natural order and balance. Humans and humanoid races destroy the forests to create their monuments, deforest the area to make lavish worthless trinkets, and hunt for sport rather than necessity. What does a dragon do in comparison? Occupy a cave and steal the possessions of humans. I dont see dragons going around to burn down forests for the hell of it. In fact, green dragons often live among them.

You also forget that many dragon variations, with gold being a great example, are allied with society. They protect over humanoid races, or learn about them.

Nature is all about balance and change. Part of a druids ultimate job is knowing that you cannot fiz every small detail, as nature is constantly changing, and so too is the world around it. Everything adapts to fit in, and can ultimately work in harmony when balance comes to be restored. Even civilization, as displayed by elven constructions and cities, can become a beautiful and non destructive part of nature.



Also, other good aligned metallic dragon colors you can recall are brass, bronze, copper, gold, silver, adamantite, mithral, cobalt, mercury, orium, and steel (whom are known to masquerade as humans to help and learn of their society). Compared to the chromatics of black, blue, green, white, red, brown, orange, purple, grey and this is withiut getting into the mixes of gem dragons and shadow dragons and such.


Really the only truly horrid dragons would likely be dracolich. Which are not naturally created to begin with.

You're putting a lot of words into my mouth there.. I guess just, reread what I said? I don't know how you got the idea that I thought a druid would want to wipe anything out, I said they need to keep the balance. How do you keep the balance? By helping the loosing side. As I said, I think that in reality nature (plants and animals) have a big disadvantage in this setting where there are marauding orcs and magical dragons and that's why we have druids, to help protect it and keep the balance by ensuring that nature isn't overtaken. I'm talking about chromatic dragons, of course and I know that an intelligent good aligned creature like a gold dragon is more likely to have an understanding and respect for the balance. However, I'm sorry but green dragons are greedy, selfish and destructive by their very nature. Selfish means you want ALL the pie. That's not a creature that cares about keeping the balance so they shouldn't be allies of druids. A druid shouldn't be going out of her way to help them and she should even be trying to keep their numbers in check. You know why? Because green dragons are powerful predators, such good predators that they would upset the balance of nature if something didn't stop them. Overall the scales would be tipped in the dragons favor so they need to be kept in check.

This applies to all species of monster who are reckless, destructive, selfish, too numerous and powerful, things like orcs. As I said, in a game world it doesn't matter because if the designer wants there to be wolves in a forest, there will be. But in reality you can't tell me that green dragons wouldn't dominate the forest and ultimately destroy it if they weren't kept in check. If dragons are so desperately in need of protection then sure, I'd say druids could help them.. but really?

Also, are orcs not a natural race? Druids aren't running around protecting orcs because they don't need protecting. They breed like wild fire and are everywhere. It's the same with dragons in that they are powerful to not need protecting. (If anything these two species need to be kept in check) Now, again.. the entire world is balanced through magic, nature and civilization. But Druids don't just have that one agenda. They want to keep their ideal version of how the world should be.. "nature" with animals and plants and forests. Why should (chromatic) dragons be included in that and not orcs? Because orcs disrupt the balance you say? Well, yes.. but so would dragons!

[Fenix]

Aug 22, 2014 7:23:08 GMT -5 Vulpix89 said:

Aug 22, 2014 6:36:58 GMT -5 Fenix said:

Along that same line of thinking, druids should be against all fey and sylvan creatures simply on the premise that they are magical creatures. Some would have destructive tendancies, such as pixies and faerie dragons, because they are natural pranksters and thieves. Pranks often involve pain caused and can cause fires etc. Some nymphs in folklore were known to capture and eat people.

Dragons are magical creatures, but they are also a natural race, one of the oldest in faerun. Should druids not hate elves? They are two legged ancient beings of magic that are deathless and have an amazing grasp of the arcane, which can be a destructive force itself. Should a druid not just slaughter an elven child to prevent its possible destruction?

Part of a druid keeping the balance of the world is knowing where it is best for adaptation, a course of the natural cycle, to take over entirely. Such is a thought most keep in mind when we have to consider cities. Druids can and very well could just eradicate all cities from the face of the earth, as they are things that destroy the natural order and balance. Humans and humanoid races destroy the forests to create their monuments, deforest the area to make lavish worthless trinkets, and hunt for sport rather than necessity. What does a dragon do in comparison? Occupy a cave and steal the possessions of humans. I dont see dragons going around to burn down forests for the hell of it. In fact, green dragons often live among them.

You also forget that many dragon variations, with gold being a great example, are allied with society. They protect over humanoid races, or learn about them.

Nature is all about balance and change. Part of a druids ultimate job is knowing that you cannot fiz every small detail, as nature is constantly changing, and so too is the world around it. Everything adapts to fit in, and can ultimately work in harmony when balance comes to be restored. Even civilization, as displayed by elven constructions and cities, can become a beautiful and non destructive part of nature.



Also, other good aligned metallic dragon colors you can recall are brass, bronze, copper, gold, silver, adamantite, mithral, cobalt, mercury, orium, and steel (whom are known to masquerade as humans to help and learn of their society). Compared to the chromatics of black, blue, green, white, red, brown, orange, purple, grey and this is withiut getting into the mixes of gem dragons and shadow dragons and such.


Really the only truly horrid dragons would likely be dracolich. Which are not naturally created to begin with.

You're putting a lot of words into my mouth there.. I guess just, reread what I said? I don't know how you got the idea that I thought a druid would want to wipe anything out, I said they need to keep the balance. How do you keep the balance? By helping the loosing side. As I said, I think that in reality nature (plants and animals) have a big disadvantage in this setting where there are marauding orcs and magical dragons and that's why we have druids, to help protect it and keep the balance by ensuring that nature isn't overtaken. I'm talking about chromatic dragons, of course and I know that an intelligent good aligned creature like a gold dragon is more likely to have an understanding and respect for the balance. However, I'm sorry but green dragons are greedy, selfish and destructive by their very nature. Selfish means you want ALL the pie. That's not a creature that cares about keeping the balance so they shouldn't be allies of druids. A druid shouldn't be going out of her way to help them and she should even be trying to keep their numbers in check. You know why? Because green dragons are powerful predators, such good predators that they would upset the balance of nature if something didn't stop them. Overall the scales would be tipped in the dragons favor so they need to be kept in check.

This applies to all species of monster who are reckless, destructive, selfish, too numerous and powerful, things like orcs. As I said, in a game world it doesn't matter because if the designer wants there to be wolves in a forest, there will be. But in reality you can't tell me that green dragons wouldn't dominate the forest and ultimately destroy it if they weren't kept in check. If dragons are so desperately in need of protection then sure, I'd say druids could help them.. but really?

Also, are orcs not a natural race? Druids aren't running around protecting orcs because they don't need protecting. They breed like wild fire and are everywhere. It's the same with dragons in that they are powerful to not need protecting. (If anything these two species need to be kept in check) Now, again.. the entire world is balanced through magic, nature and civilization. But Druids don't just have that one agenda. They want to keep their ideal version of how the world should be.. "nature" with animals and plants and forests. Why should (chromatic) dragons be included in that and not orcs? Because orcs disrupt the balance you say? Well, yes.. but so would dragons!

This applies to all species of monster who are reckless, destructive, selfish, too numerous and powerful, things like orcs.


So you mean humans, right?

And orcs are in a matter different. Green dragons live in the forest. It is their natural habitat. They hunt humanoids for entertainment, but they only feed on animals as neceassary. Dragons are INTELLIGENT creatures. They may be evil, but you see a sparse few stories of green dragons just going out and destroying all land and creatutes entirely. If that were the case, they would have been hunted out a long time ago. By dragons and druids. Orcs however are creatures of eestruction through and through. They burn down the forests and hunt wastefully, just like most HUMANOID races, as I said. They are still protected often by druids, but are as often despised by them for the vile destruction they bring to the world.

[Vulpix89]

Nope I never said that. Humans are very diverse in how destructive they are, unlike orcs who fit a pattern of breeding and destruction.

Well it's impossible to see the effects, since we're in an artificially maintained environment. Kill that black bear on the south edge of the Bramblewood a thousand times and it'll be back the next time you enter the area.

I don't want to put words in your mouth but what you're saying here is.. A druid should help the green dragon species prosper because they are vulnerable and they need the help of a druid in order to keep their species strong and thus keep the natural world in balance?

In order to keep a balance you either need to help or hinder a species. So, why does a green dragon need to be helped?

Because there's a forest near where I live and I'm just thinking what would happen to its ecosystem if it had to support a giant, intelligent, selfish, greedy, acid breathing, magical, flying super predator. As I say, it may be able to support one or two but I certainly don't think the druids need to help this ultimate super predator in anyway, if anything their numbers need to be kept limited.

PS - Bowing out now because I don't know how many more ways I can word the same point. You will never listen anyway. xxx

[mysticalkas]

I was just asking for advice about constructs and the Unicorn summons...but hey love the discussion....but can ya'll at least give suggestions for the Unicorn summons to be changed...I would appreciate it all so much.

[marredwolf]

this would be a great IC conversation on the philosophy of druids. I used to play one that was more militant than the rest, i had fun with just that simple difference.


as for the other summons, id look into the same ideas that were being discussed for the shifter class.

as for the constructs, id suggest it be done IC and see what the dms think of it. maybe you get no spells for a week! maybe you find the dark side of the druids. maybe you find a way to make it work somehow with natural means.

[maeglhachel]

Aug 22, 2014 11:07:17 GMT -5 marredwolf said:

this would be a great IC conversation on the philosophy of druids. I used to play one that was more militant than the rest, i had fun with just that simple difference.

I totally second this, because I feel there is some room for interpretation, here. My druid of Mielikki e. g. always felt like balance didn't need to be defended against goodly creatures anywhere near half as much as against evil critters (which are often greedy, uncaring, destructive, etc.) ... other druids took a different view. A ranger friend of hers e. g. would not kill a hatchling red dragon and leave it in peace, but kill the adult red dragon when it was tipping the scales of balance. Quite some room for interpretation and good RP. And absolute truths are the domain of the gods .. uhh .. DMs.

[iangallowglas]

Here's some suggestions for sylvan summons of various levels:

Sylvan:

Aranae - MM1
Dinosaurs - MM1, 2, & 3
Gaurdinals - Avoral, Cervidal, Lupinal, Leonal - MM 1 & 2
Shambling Mound - MM1
Bogun - MM2
Felldrakes - MM2
Firbolg- MM2
Forest Giant - MM2
Spirit of the land - MM2
Battlebriar - MM3
Bearhound - MM3
Glastig w/ or w/o class levels - MM3
Ragewalker - MM3
Redcap - w/ or w/o class levels - MM3
Splinterwaif - w/ or w/o class levels - MM3
Thorn - w/ or w/o class levels - MM3
Topiary Gaurdians - MM3
Wood Woad - w/ or w/o class levels - MM3
Woodlings - MM3

I'm not sure if any of these creatures exist in the NWN templates (particularly the MM3 monsters), but I especially like the evil fey from the MM3 (The Ragewalker and Redcap).

[mysticalkas]

Awesome!!! I don't even know what over half of these are...where did you find them so I can read up on them...from a correct source of course.