RP Discussion: Healing

[Lady Frost]

So I tried to make this thread last night and I deleted it at the very end so today I'm trying again!

Alright, so I hope I don't hurt any feelings with this thread, but this is something I've come to have strong feelings about and I'd like to hear what others have to saw about it. Again, I'm stating my opinion on it for the sake of discussion and perhaps enlightenment for others that find my points beneficial to their RP.

To begin, I think of two different types of healing in NWN. There is 'battle type' healing and 'RP type' healing. 'Battle type' healing is when you use 5 healing potions while regenerations tick and you fill the gaps with mass heals and 20 healing kits during a battle with a demilich. 'RP type' healing is when your group walks up on a defeated party; you mourn the dead before offering a healing kit or two to the wounded then continuing on your way. (Something much more akin to a novel or lore.) My conflict is when RP situations include 'battle type' healing. When a story includes something along the lines of "gives free healing to everyone and casts 5 raise deads" it seems unrealistic to me.

I think part of this comes from what we consider HP and what the actual healing spells in battle are doing. Many consider NWN hitpoints to be "the ability to properly fight" and healing kits/spells are actually "spells to renew and prolong the ability to properly fight". When you get to zero you are no longer able to defend yourself and fall victim to the other party. To think of some of this healing in terms of RP is overwhelming almost. In RP, to think that once a day (or even more in some cases!), a cleric could gather up as many people as could stand within 5 feet of them and cast mass heal to perfectly heal all of them is unrealistic to me. However, this discussion of how to view HP is actually a bit sidetracked...

The point I wish to make is on the offering of excessive amounts of healing in RP situations (and the cost associated with it). The following is from the FRCS, and while I feel I've posted it before, I couldn't find it. Here it is again.

-----------------------------------
HEALING

Temples and shrines to some number of deities stand in virtually every thorp and hamlet of Faerun. Most of these are under the supervision of a low-to mid-level cleric of the appropriate deity. Frequently, these parish priests and shrine-keepers possess healing abilities unavailable to low-level adventurers.

The degree to which a local cleric may make her healing spells available to adventurers in the town varies greatly with the tenets of her faith, the demands of the town, and her own best judgment. Clerics obviously prefer to aid fellow followers of their patron deity, and if healing resources are limited, the faithful will be aided before people devoted to other gods. Naturally, the followers of deities antithetical to the cleric’s own deity are extremely unlikely to be helped in any circumstances.

Same Patron Deity:
If the character or characters requiring healing follow the same patron deity as the local cleric, they stand the best chance of receiving help.

Characters of the same faith brought before the cleric in a dying state (hit points between 0 and -10) will be stabilized, often without any expectation of compensation. Any person who is not dying is not likely to find free healing. After all, people heal with time, and most clerics prefer to retain their spell power rather than give it away.

Adventurers can purchase routine healing spells at the normal prices for purchasing spellcasting. Some clerics may be moved to heal a follower of the same faith at no cost, but only if it is clearly an immediate need of the faith to get the injured person back into top form as soon as possible.

Disease, level loss, blindness, or other conditions besides hit point loss are more complicated. The adventurer may be healed at no cost if he has served his faith well. Otherwise, he might be healed in exchange for a special donation (20% to 50% of the normal spellcasting cost) or a special service for the temple.

Raising or resurrecting the dead is never undertaken lightly. In general, the friends of a dead character should expect to pay the normal spell casting cost. In some very rare instances, a dead character might be raised by clerics of his own faith regardless of whether he or his comrades can meet the spell casting cost. This only happens when the deceased has been an exemplary servant of the faith, and the cleric in question has cause to believe that it is absolutely imperative to the faith to restore the dead character to life. Even then, the raised character might be charged with a geas/quest to serve the faith in a specific task to justify the effort and expense of his resurrection.

Allied Patron Deity:
A local cleric devoted to a deity allied to the adventurer’s patron deity, or a local cleric who simply wishes to support like minded adventurers who advanced his own cause by advancing theirs, is the next best thing to a cleric of a hero’s own faith. Again, characters of allied faith who arrive in a dying state will be stabilized, often without any expectation of compensation. Adventurers can purchase routine healing spells at the normal prices for purchasing spellcasting. Some allied clerics may heal an adventurer at a reduced cost (20% to 50% of the normal spellcasting cost), but only if it is clearly advantageous to get the adventurer back on his feet fast.

The adventurer may be healed of disease or other conditions for the normal spellcasting cost. Again, if it is clearly a good idea for the local cleric to aid the adventurer, he might be healed in exchange for a special donation (20% to 50% of the normal spellcasting cost) or a special service for the temple.

Neutral Patron Deity:
If the local cleric’s patron deity is not particularly friendly or hostile to the patron deities of the adventurers, the decision to aid them or not is much more mercenary and situational. Any good-aligned cleric is likely to stabilize a dying character brought before her unless that character is clearly an agent of evil. Other than that, any healing spells are available at the normal spellcasting costs, but only if the neutral cleric has reason to believe that aiding the adventurer in question won’t cause any harm or risk to followers of the cleric’s faith.
-----------------------------------

As shown above, even among those of the same faith, healing is not always free and unlimited. There are costs associated with healing. Just because our PC's can cast 2000 HP worth of healing every rest doesn't mean that should equate to the thought that it's free (or the expectation that others should give it for free). As I find it to be now, commonly, people treat those that ask for payment for healing as rude or unfriendly. I think free healing should be the exception, not the rule. As an example, (And this is meant only as an example, please do not take offense; you are welcome to RP as you like.) in the thread Border Hostilities: Immersea (Open RP) there are two examples of what I would think to be excessive gratitude of offered healing for an RP situation.

I'd like to know what others think?

[Fluffy the Mad]

If you mean my own entry in that thread, it is fully in-character for a Selunite to offer excessively cheap or free healing. Selunites do this regularly as they wander and rarely ask more than a meal or a bed for the night in return for doing their normal healing. Every bit of source I've seen on Selune mentions this, it's surprising that Selune does not officially have the healing domain in her portfolio. However, you have a point- not everyone does such for cheap or freely.

[Razgriz]

here are two examples of what I would think to be excessive gratitude of offered healing for an RP situation.
---------------
Uhm well hehe the dead NPC squires are from the Triadic guild, thats why Holance paid the price. He could just have hired new ones though....

And well, asking them after the raise to pay is not exactly paladin-like. If the squires die in battle, once again my character will pay.

Also: The raises were given after the battle, not during it.

[Kelitayu]

I definitely agree that there's a difference between roleplay and combat situations. I've always found it a little odd how you can use healing kits during the middle of a fight, but I just suspend my belief. I mean, if my friend is about to die I'm going to try my best to keep him alive, regardless. Fun overrides realism in this case.

How ever when it comes to more serious roleplaying situations I think we should respect the gravity of the situation. I once witnessed a druid drinking some poison. Now, it's true that druids are immune to poison but it still didn't sit right with me that the druid was doing it just as a party trick. It did break immersion a bit imo.

Now, for my character Maganda. She has mental issues which are an integral part of her story and character.

"Greater restoration also dispels all magical effects penalizing the character's abilities, cures all temporary ability damage, and restores all points permanently drained from all ability scores. It also removes all forms of **INSANITY*, confusion, and similar mental effects. Greater restoration does not restore levels or Constitution points lost due to death."

So, I have worried before that one day she might be "cured" by some high level cleric.. obviously the characters/players intentions would be good but I don't like the idea that a roleplaying concept I've worked at for months could be undone by just casting a simple spell. I know this isn't entirely the point you were making but it's perhaps something else to consider.

What about if my character is suffering from a fever.. maybe it's something worth roleplaying out. However most of the time I imagine players would just hand over a lesser restoration potion and that's the end of it.. I'm healthy again.

Then, if I'm roleplaying my character shivering because she's in the frozen mountains. You could just cast endure elements, sorted.. but maybe some time's it's worth exploring these situations. They can create immersion and make things interesting. Some times it might be worth laying off the spells a bit for the sake of exploring something different.

I don't have strong opinions on this, I just think it might remove some otherwise interesting role play situations with how easily things can be solved with simple spells.

[Fluffy the Mad]

Oct 21, 2013 19:59:42 GMT -5 Kelitayu said:

I definitely agree that there's a difference between roleplay and combat situations. I've always found it a little odd how you can use healing kits during the middle of a fight, but I just suspend my belief. I mean, if my friend is about to die I'm going to try my best to keep him alive, regardless. Fun overrides realism in this case.

How ever when it comes to more serious roleplaying situations I think we should respect the gravity of the situation. I once witnessed a druid drinking some poison. Now, it's true that druids are immune to poison but it still didn't sit right with me that the druid was doing it just as a party trick. It did break immersion a bit imo.

Now, for my character Maganda. She has mental issues which are an integral part of her story and character.

"Greater restoration also dispels all magical effects penalizing the character's abilities, cures all temporary ability damage, and restores all points permanently drained from all ability scores. It also removes all forms of **INSANITY*, confusion, and similar mental effects. Greater restoration does not restore levels or Constitution points lost due to death."

So, I have worried before that one day she might be "cured" by some high level cleric.. obviously the characters/players intentions would be good but I don't like the idea that a roleplaying concept I've worked at for months could be undone by just casting a simple spell. I know this isn't entirely the point you were making but it's perhaps something else to consider.

What about if my character is suffering from a fever.. maybe it's something worth roleplaying out. However most of the time I imagine players would just hand over a lesser restoration potion and that's the end of it.. I'm healthy again.

Then, if I'm roleplaying my character shivering because she's in the frozen mountains. You could just cast endure elements, sorted.. but maybe some time's it's worth exploring these situations. They can create immersion and make things interesting. Some times it might be worth laying off the spells a bit for the sake of exploring something different.

I don't have strong opinions on this, I just think it might remove some otherwise interesting role play situations with how easily things can be solved with simple spells.

A note on greater restoration- it affects all magical afflictions, if memory serves. Natural states aren't affected in the same way, or Selunites wouldn't have the work they do in caring for the more unstable members of Faerun's populace.

[Ascension]

Oct 21, 2013 20:56:47 GMT -5 Fluffy the Mad said:

Oct 21, 2013 19:59:42 GMT -5 Kelitayu said:

I definitely agree that there's a difference between roleplay and combat situations. I've always found it a little odd how you can use healing kits during the middle of a fight, but I just suspend my belief. I mean, if my friend is about to die I'm going to try my best to keep him alive, regardless. Fun overrides realism in this case.

How ever when it comes to more serious roleplaying situations I think we should respect the gravity of the situation. I once witnessed a druid drinking some poison. Now, it's true that druids are immune to poison but it still didn't sit right with me that the druid was doing it just as a party trick. It did break immersion a bit imo.

Now, for my character Maganda. She has mental issues which are an integral part of her story and character.

"Greater restoration also dispels all magical effects penalizing the character's abilities, cures all temporary ability damage, and restores all points permanently drained from all ability scores. It also removes all forms of **INSANITY*, confusion, and similar mental effects. Greater restoration does not restore levels or Constitution points lost due to death."

So, I have worried before that one day she might be "cured" by some high level cleric.. obviously the characters/players intentions would be good but I don't like the idea that a roleplaying concept I've worked at for months could be undone by just casting a simple spell. I know this isn't entirely the point you were making but it's perhaps something else to consider.

What about if my character is suffering from a fever.. maybe it's something worth roleplaying out. However most of the time I imagine players would just hand over a lesser restoration potion and that's the end of it.. I'm healthy again.

Then, if I'm roleplaying my character shivering because she's in the frozen mountains. You could just cast endure elements, sorted.. but maybe some time's it's worth exploring these situations. They can create immersion and make things interesting. Some times it might be worth laying off the spells a bit for the sake of exploring something different.

I don't have strong opinions on this, I just think it might remove some otherwise interesting role play situations with how easily things can be solved with simple spells.

A note on greater restoration- it affects all magical afflictions, if memory serves. Natural states aren't affected in the same way, or Selunites wouldn't have the work they do in caring for the more unstable members of Faerun's populace.

I would state that this is done in a setting where not everyone gets a raise dead spell cast on them by the same right (material cost not including). But point being one of the things you kind of have to suspend your disbelief here on, in the actual setting world, most adventurers die, where I've only ever seen maybe 7 adventures here ever perma killed before level 10. Most individuals seen as having local "power" are usually ranging from level 6-13ish for a area like cormyr (if memory serves) and even in area where higher level stuff is common, the norm would still be 13-18ish (and that is pushing it). Does that happen here, no, should it, no I don't believe so. It is one of those matters you have to look at source, look at what really is in the game, and just make it work as best you can. Least that is how i usually have to run with it.

Moving up a post. As to the bit about healing kits, its actually came up a few times near me. Honestly I usually find other ways of rping it beyond just a simple healing kit. Evalor would go by materials to charge his wand of healing (which he had, as well as the UMD to use it), Alamor would uncork a healing potion and pour it on the person fighting (admitted he wasn't as good at this). I've even seen concepts of gnomes giving people shots filled with stuff, and ext, really its one of those things you kinda got to use your imagination on.

To the main poster, honest this that I've seen is usually a matter of there being different sources, for the same matter, if you look at the core game books, it cost gold, ect ect, only so much discount, ect ect. If you look at setting for players, completely different list of rules, if you look at the setting lore, its even farther away usually. Most the time I go by a rule for PCs of the PC understanding there faith, understands the setting and consequences, and then tries to do what they think is best, based upon there own personality, understanding, faith, and ideals of the faith. If Eldarel sees a elf hurt, or cursed, or whatever, chances are hes just going to do what he can to heal it. He is a cleric of Corellon and as such he would feel it is his responsibility to take care of the person in whatever way he thought was best at the time. That being said, often times others know this too, and even a few elves have suffered minor injuries and put up a hand knowing his nature to heal them would say that they would live and to save his spell's energy for another priest if need be, and thank him for showing concern. Anyways that is just my two cents.

[walkonair]

Oct 21, 2013 19:10:35 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

<snip>

Temples and shrines to some number of deities stand in virtually every thorp and hamlet of Faerun. Most of these are under the supervision of a low-to mid-level cleric of the appropriate deity. Frequently, these parish priests and shrine-keepers possess healing abilities unavailable to low-level adventurers.

<snip>

As shown above, even among those of the same faith, healing is not always free and unlimited. There are costs associated with healing. Just because our PC's can cast 2000 HP worth of healing every rest doesn't mean that should equate to the thought that it's free (or the expectation that others should give it for free). As I find it to be now, commonly, people treat those that ask for payment for healing as rude or unfriendly. I think free healing should be the exception, not the rule. As an example, (And this is meant only as an example, please do not take offense; you are welcome to RP as you like.) in the thread Border Hostilities: Immersea (Open RP) there are two examples of what I would think to be excessive gratitude of offered healing for an RP situation.

I'd like to know what others think?

My thoughts.


Healing in general:
- different people will RP it different ways; I like this
- battle healing is often harder to RP in full because we're in a text medium, and rounds don't always accommodate people's speed in typing (I'm slow!)
- it's enriching and immersive when healing is RP'd, I totally agree
- interactive in-depth healing RP is harder in a forum post when you're being polite and not dominating someone else's thread


Healing by FRC PCs:
- (Epic) PC adventurers may not equate to local clerics at local temples, whether it is skill, experience, and especially money
- some characters have a lot of money, and don't care about spending it to do good
- some characters are broke and can't, or are rich and don't care, so no freebie heals from them
- PCs I know IC who posted in that thread were IC as I have seen them RP'd on FRC for many months; I like this

- I frequently see PCs pay or offer to pay for significant healing by other PCs

• One of my PCs had it explained that this is the right thing to do, and I'm positive she can't be the only one who pays now
  
• Side note -- getting that lecture*cough*explanation was a fantastic RP interaction with a very exasperated cleric, and I loved it!

And personally, I have one PC who buys and uses raise and resurrection scrolls generously; I have another who doesn't, it's character based.

The former has used raise scrolls on PCs & NPCs alike, used a resurrection scroll on a gem we were RPing as a dead body (the player of said dead character was not there that day), and so on - you get the idea. She's not a cleric, it's not a "free" spell, she buys the scrolls and will continue to do so.  She would give more if she could, but there are server rules about giving stuff away.  I don't believe she trivialises healing.  I welcome interaction from other PCs who think she does -- lets discuss IC


So if people want to hand out free healing in their RP, I'm fine with that.
If Evil wants to raise puppies and butterflies from the dead, to 'sekkritly' sacrifice them later but not tell us, RP away.
If Good wants to raise evil because that's who Good is today, go right ahead.
If Cheap lies about having scrolls, awesome.
If your Cleric wants payment -- the RP can be fun and have long-lasting effects, ask away.
If someone yells about you asking for payment -- yell right back and bitch about them all over town, thumbs up.
If someone slaps a heal kit on you without asking, go right up their nose about invasion of space or yell assault that they came after you with sharp instruments/weapons, terrific!


Or to give the succinct version of the above:  RP as you like (from the OP); moreover have fun, interact, enjoy the game

[Pedantry INC]

My big issue with Healing is generally along the same lines of Kelitayu.

One habit we have as players is to forget that Divine Magic is limited. While ingame we can renew our spells once every 40 minutes... truthfully clerics only get their spells once a day.
NPCs don't often pass level 5 or so. There is something like 1 level 20 npc in a million. When people start throwing divine spells around left and right to heal everything... it seems to me that they're forgetting that they're vastly outnumbered. There will always be more sickness, pain, disease and injury than there are priest capable of healing it.

What happens when Niceguy Mcgee heals suzie and tommy, using up the last of his magic, to have Joes miserable parents beg for their son to be healed? What happens when the surrounding mob realizes the priest is out of spells and used them on someone else? What about my kid? Hey! Why are you favoring them? Why not me! You have magic left don't you! You're just holding out! Heal MY son! Heal MY child! Ensue mob rage riot. Niceguy Mcgee can easily end up trampled under the feet of the horde of people that decided he was jilting them - not because he was - but because terrified sick people saw a cure that they think they deserve just as much as the ones that got it, and panic thinking it's being withheld.

For in character healing (outside of battle), one thing I'm always quietly annoyed by is people healing my characters without ever getting permission. Healing kits (and spells) require you to touch a person. Some characters don't like being touched and might try to stop you, but the mechanics of NWN are too quick for that. If you just slap on a healing kit without rping offering to heal, you're essentially forcing them to accept the heal regardless of the characters attitude. Once you've gotten permission / acceptance from a character once, it's likely fine to assume you can go ahead next time, but that first heal can give huge insight into a character: showing a grateful nature, a suspicious nature, an accepting nature, or a prideful self supportive nature. I really really strongly recommend people rp before slapping on kits and spells!

[Defunct Fiddlesticks]

How life is for Henrik as an Ilmater-powered Triadic healer....

He offers healing, if someone says no then he doesn't give it to them.

If someone walks past him bleeding or near death and says "Don't worry, I will just sleep it off" he WILL roll his eyes and mutter "Sure, you go bleed all over Kale's sheets and I'll be around in the morning to raise you if you weren't lucky enough to survive the night."

He never accepts "payment", he will accept donations. He likes being given food and healing supplies. Or wood.

Depending on the situation, he uses mundane non-magical methods first, spells second. He has to pray six times a day to Ilmater, spells are exhausting, they require concentration.

If he's had a heavy day (like the day before yesterday when he raised a big party from the dead) then you won't see him for a couple of days because he will be "taking time out" to recover, he may not have died himself but he was running aroud keeping everyone on their feet and casting powerful spells so it's going to affect him. I have rped him passing out from exhaustion. He falls asleep in the bath/in his chair. If it's particularly bad he will take a Plea of Rest and do light duties for a tenday.

If he can teach YOU to endure/heal/look after yourself, he will. The RP that comes out of this is fun, it makes his life easier as he knows what he's taught someone will be used and take the pressure off his church and make people more independent.

Much of his attitude to healing stems from what his GOD dictates. That is the important thing to me about how I roleplay him, after all he's a servant of a god who charges his faith to "Help all who hurt, no matter who they are". I would love to be able to rp the "cost" of things materially, but I can't, he's under a vow of poverty so I rp the cost of things to him physically and mentally.

It will be different for every cleric.

Which leads me to the rp in Immersea...Holance bought six raise scrolls because Henrik wasn't around to help, Henrik was busy pulling other people out of a dangerous situation. Holance is Triadic, the six squires he helped are people he would have trained and known. As far as I am concerned, Holance reacted appropriately and true to his character.

This is what it comes down to, your character should react in an appropriate fashion for who THEY are and for whatever motives they have.

[Deleted]

One point I would like to make, which hopefully will not de-rail the thread in any way:

My main PC is a druid, but her main role among her adventuring friends is focused on acting as the healer. Most of them wear armour that covers most of their body, so when they start to get battered around in combat, my PC does not know if they are severely injured or not. I have noticed other characters in-game making remarks like "Oh, you are bleeding everywhere, let me patch you up..". While the sentiment is appreciated, how does one actually know if another character is bleeding, when they are completely covered by a suit of armour?

As pedantry mentioned, some characters do not like to be touched without their permission. To help players who play as healers understand the situation they are in better, an emote outlining the characters feelings towards their pain could give the healer an incentive to approach them then and offer assistance. I have to agree, I do not think it's acceptable to simply heal someone without knowing the condition they are in; there is no flavour in that kind of behaviour, and then the RP becomes lacking in any substance. My PC tends to announce that she is willing to give out healing, but only if she is asked for healing.

Just my two cents.

[Defunct Fiddlesticks]

Oct 22, 2013 9:37:59 GMT -5 @wrathofnature said:

One point I would like to make, which hopefully will not de-rail the thread in any way:

My main PC is a druid, but her main role among her adventuring friends is focused on acting as the healer. Most of them wear armour that covers most of their body, so when they start to get battered around in combat, my PC does not know if they are severely injured or not. I have noticed other characters in-game making remarks like "Oh, you are bleeding everywhere, let me patch you up..". While the sentiment is appreciated, how does one actually know if another character is bleeding, when they are completely covered by a suit of armour?

If armor is struck hard enough it will buckle, bend and break, metal rips, sharp weapons pierce it, leather can be shredded by metal, honestly if people aren't going to rp injuries and bleeding then it just makes no sense at all. You have eyes, you're going to spot if someone's clothing is covered in blood, you're not going to say "I guess he spilled the tomato sauce".

[The Tallest Dwarf]

Oct 22, 2013 10:06:06 GMT -5 Defunct Fiddlesticks said:

Oct 22, 2013 9:37:59 GMT -5 @wrathofnature said:

One point I would like to make, which hopefully will not de-rail the thread in any way:

My main PC is a druid, but her main role among her adventuring friends is focused on acting as the healer. Most of them wear armour that covers most of their body, so when they start to get battered around in combat, my PC does not know if they are severely injured or not. I have noticed other characters in-game making remarks like "Oh, you are bleeding everywhere, let me patch you up..". While the sentiment is appreciated, how does one actually know if another character is bleeding, when they are completely covered by a suit of armour?

If armor is struck hard enough it will buckle, bend and break, metal rips, sharp weapons pierce it, leather can be shredded by metal, honestly if people aren't going to rp injuries and bleeding then it just makes no sense at all. You have eyes, you're going to spot if someone's clothing is covered in blood, you're not going to say "I guess he spilled the tomato sauce".

Historically a lot of wounds sustained by armor-wearers in battle were as much a result of armor piercing flesh as the weapons themselves. For example, a mace or warhammer was deadly because it crushed metal plate into the person, breaking bones and causing concussions, not necessarily because they were able to penetrate the armor. With different types of mail, while the cutting edge of a sword or axe might not break the chains, scale, etc it often forced them into the flesh, causing infection. Not to mention of course piercing thrusts or delivering blows to vulnerable joints and less protected parts.

When Torgar uses a kit on someone in battle (usually the aftermath), I rp that he's binding visible wounds or otherwise applying poultices and bandages after removing some mangled armor.

[iangallowglas]

I tend to agree that overall there is too much free healing, but I also agree that depending on the character and situation it can make perfect sense.

As a brief example, my cleric Cole Reyer doesn't give free healing. He doesn't care whether the adventurer walking into town bleeds to death or lives, unless he knows that person has the best interests of nature in mind or is aiding Cole in obtaining his personal goals. He is however, from Greatgaunt, and will go out of his way to help those that live in the village. So if a villager is hurt or dies, Cole will do what he can to help, if it's just some adventurer; let them rot for all he cares.....especially City Folk.


So I think that Zodika has a point and we should all be looking at our characters motivations as to whether we give healing, and not just do it because we as players think it's a nice jesture. I think we have all done this at one point or another, myself included.

[Defunct Fiddlesticks]

Oct 22, 2013 10:43:55 GMT -5 The Tallest Dwarf said:

Historically a lot of wounds sustained by armor-wearers in battle were as much a result of armor piercing flesh as the weapons themselves. For example, a mace or warhammer was deadly because it crushed metal plate into the person, breaking bones and causing concussions, not necessarily because they were able to penetrate the armor. With different types of mail, while the cutting edge of a sword or axe might not break the chains, scale, etc it often forced them into the flesh, causing infection. Not to mention of course piercing thrusts or delivering blows to vulnerable joints and less protected parts.

When Torgar uses a kit on someone in battle (usually the aftermath), I rp that he's binding visible wounds or otherwise applying poultices and bandages after removing some mangled armor.

Yes, it is basically like being in a car, if you hit something sharp or heavy it will dent, crushing you or the object will pierce the metal or rupture it. I used to rp with someone who wore armor who emoted beating the dents out of his armor and patching it up in a forge which I thought was cool, after every battle.

[Lady Frost]

Speaking to the point of hitpoints and the "condition" messages under your name. As I mentioned in my first post, not everyone views hitpoints and this message the same way. Just because it says 'badly wounded' or 'near death' doesn't mean they are bleeding, or even have visible wounds. For one, psionic magics and many spells, don't cause physical wounds. Two, some people don't treat hitpoints as 'wounding' but 'the ability to continue to defend ones self' (which makes more sense to me anyhow in terms how healing kits and healing spells in combat function). To them, losing hitpoints represents fatigue, and other combat inefficiencies as much as actual wounds. So, the person walking into town with 'near death' may only be suffering from so much fatigue that they simply would be unable to defend themselves after suffering another blow (or whatever else); physical wounds have nothing to do with it in this case and rest really is all they need. What I do agree with is that 'near death' is a serious condition, and whether it is fatigue or wounds or something else, ignoring 'near death' to go sell or stand in town and talk is poor form (in my opinion). 'Near death' should be seeking recovery in whatever form that should be.

[iangallowglas]

When it comes to wounds, I tend to consider most as a combination of fatigue and minor wounds and bruising that hurt and make the character sore. If my character gets critted, then I consider that an actual wound that needs attention. In general, I heal my character after being wounded and don't walk around in a dungeon, or especially in town, with a condition modifier worse than barely injured. I think that when your character is injured or worse, regardless of how you consider the hit point damage, the character would be hurting in one way or another and would want to remedy the situation as soon as possible.

[The Tallest Dwarf]

Oct 22, 2013 11:45:29 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

Speaking to the point of hitpoints and the "condition" messages under your name. As I mentioned in my first post, not everyone views hitpoints and this message the same way. Just because it says 'badly wounded' or 'near death' doesn't mean they are bleeding, or even have visible wounds. For one, psionic magics and many spells, don't cause physical wounds. Two, some people don't treat hitpoints as 'wounding' but 'the ability to continue to defend ones self' (which makes more sense to me anyhow in terms how healing kits and healing spells in combat function). To them, losing hitpoints represents fatigue, and other combat inefficiencies as much as actual wounds. So, the person walking into town with 'near death' may only be suffering from so much fatigue that they simply would be unable to defend themselves after suffering another blow (or whatever else); physical wounds have nothing to do with it in this case and rest really is all they need. What I do agree with is that 'near death' is a serious condition, and whether it is fatigue or wounds or something else, ignoring 'near death' to go sell or stand in town and talk is poor form (in my opinion). 'Near death' should be seeking recovery in whatever form that should be.

For the record I was merely addressing physical damage that one can see. There have been times I emote a status change being a reflection of combat fatigue as well as sustained injuries but in general if it's the midst of battle and someone is at badly wounded I am going to heal them, it's that simple.Same way if I am in need of healing I won't be bemoaning the aid when it's given.

If I see someone badly wounded/near death in a town then I usually wait for them to emote something before assuming, or I might send a friendly "//My pc has high wisdom/is a cleric and I was wondering if they would notice that you were wounded."

I've also never seen psionic damage on NWN, so is that just a hypothetical?

[Lady Frost]

Oct 22, 2013 12:06:13 GMT -5 The Tallest Dwarf said:

I've also never seen psionic damage on NWN, so is that just a hypothetical?

The Mind Flayers use psionic attacks. I avoid Beholders at pretty much all costs so I'm not sure all their abilities.

[Ascension]

In general if I see a character at -near death- or anything I assume, they look horrible, alright I assume there bleeding everywhere, but even if not they look like they just went for a long long trashing. If the player emotes *looks fine* or whatever, I usually pass it on and say nothing happened, but by and large if your near death, chances are even in the very specific case that a psionic just melted your mind a bit, your not going to be skipping around like you normally would, or really any normal person would.

[StabbingNirvana]

Being attacked by psionics will take its toll on a person's physical appearance as well. If the attack is particularly against another's mind they may appear drained, exhausted, or just as damn near death as anyone else. Blood may be dripping from the nose, the ears or even from one's eyes.

As far as I understand it though, psionics is the manipulation of force with one's mind and isn't just limited to emotional strikes to the brain, but physical strikes much like ordinary magic.

[The Tallest Dwarf]

Oct 22, 2013 13:55:55 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

Being attacked by psionics will take its toll on a person's physical appearance as well. If the attack is particularly against another's mind they may appear drained, exhausted, or just as damn near death as anyone else. Blood may be dripping from the nose, the ears or even from one's eyes.

As far as I understand it though, psionics is the manipulation of force with one's mind and isn't just limited to emotional strikes to the brain, but physical strikes much like ordinary magic.

I should have clarified my earlier statement; I didn't know we had psionics on FRC because I've never fought Cthulhu the illithids.I know on a basic level that illithids use psionics, but since most of their abilities are extremely similar to regular mind-affecting spells on an operational level I tend to treat them that way.


Yes to all the above; any mentally exhausting injury would change you. Think about people coming off of addictions, they look different and act differently but I think for the purposes of this thread the main thrust of debate is still about physical injuries since you can't slap a healing kit on a mental wound.

[Trollfiend]

Oct 21, 2013 19:42:45 GMT -5 Fluffy the Mad said:

If you mean my own entry in that thread, it is fully in-character for a Selunite to offer excessively cheap or free healing. Selunites do this regularly as they wander and rarely ask more than a meal or a bed for the night in return for doing their normal healing. Every bit of source I've seen on Selune mentions this, it's surprising that Selune does not officially have the healing domain in her portfolio. However, you have a point- not everyone does such for cheap or freely.

Yeah Selûne has always been my favorite deity. If I didn't hate 3.0 clerics so much, I'd play a cleric of Selûne.

2nd Edition Faiths and Avatar's Handbook states it's pretty much an order to her clerics and specialty priests and priestesses to not charge anymore than you absolutely have to (in regards to super costly magic with expensive reagents) for healing or helping. My epic priest in 2nd Ed. tabletop kept this going as he funded his own temple and never charged anyone for any kind of aid regardless of faith.

I'm glad to see another fan of the Moon Goddess

Oct 22, 2013 5:09:00 GMT -5 Pedantry INC said:

My big issue with Healing is generally along the same lines of Kelitayu.

One habit we have as players is to forget that Divine Magic is limited. While ingame we can renew our spells once every 40 minutes... truthfully clerics only get their spells once a day.

That 40 minutes is actually 4 hours of game time. Again, different than table-top. Also, most commoners only need common ointments. Commoners catch common diseases that are easily cured and if they are injured, a cure minor wounds will patch them up right away. Those come cheap. Any healer can do that and not think twice about the cost because it's negligible.


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NWN servers (and FRC is no exception) are different than table top. There is a huge difference between what commoners pay and what adventurers pay. No commoner is going to pay a hundred gold coins for a healing kit and no commoner is going to pay a a thousand gold for a restoration spell. In table-top healing spells are cheaper. The price gouging we see on the server is based purely on what we players bring in if we're really determined adventurers.

If a player on FRC slays a dragon, he's lucky to make it out of there with a couple thousand gold coins that will be gone the moment he replenishes his healing supplies. On a full day's hunt from morning to night with a level 18 mage, I managed to bring in 20,000 gold. I had to hit every place I could manage to solo and I was never able to do that again. The money was gone quickly, of course and it was another week before I could travel again as I'd run out of spots! I think his equipment alone cost him a total of 500,000 gold... or more.

Take inn rooms for instance... no commoner or farmer is paying 12 gold to stay one night in the Regal Griffon Inn. Those rooms aren't very nice.

My point is, we shouldn't compare the prices we pay with what commoners can afford because those are two different tables. Commoners don't pay our prices. They get much cheaper ones.

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A note on "Bleeding"

Please don't ever RP my PC's wounds as if you know where he's been or what he's been fighting. You don't know if he's covered in blood or if his armor's been cut by blades. You have no idea if he's fought a giant with a club, a stag beetle with a horn, a tiny mouse with a death attack bite that's so deadly it can do near 50 points (yes, it exists on this server) or anything else. If my PC walks into town injured and you want to know how he looks, ask me in a TELL. I'll let YOU know.

Case in point- Bleeding is easy to stop. Bleeding is a surface wound only. If my PC was gouged by a 1.5 meter spear and had 3 organs pierced and is now suffering from internal bleeding or a collapsed lung, you cannot possibly know about it because by the time you see him, he's already patched the surface wound and is no longer bleeding through his skin. Or maybe it was a blunt giant's club that causes bruising that can't be seen through his armour.

I roll my eyes and ignore anyone who comments about how much he's bleeding all over the road, floor, or his own garments. It's immersion breaking for me and it's god-moding. Not a single PC in FRC has the ability to see that floating health above my druid's head and so none of them know if he's wounded or not unless the ask. No metagaming.

For sake of adding to the list of non-visible injuries, What about magic missile or Greater Missile Storm or instant death spells and a simple raise dead? In the case of the latter, there wouldn't be a single mark on the player character.

There's just absolutely no way to ever assume that the person is bleeding out.

[magiuss]

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NWN servers (and FRC is no exception) are different than table top. There is a huge difference between what commoners pay and what adventurers pay. No commoner is going to pay a hundred gold coins for a healing kit and no commoner is going to pay a a thousand gold for a restoration spell. In table-top healing spells are cheaper. The price gouging we see on the server is based purely on what we players bring in if we're really determined adventurers.

If a player on FRC slays a dragon, he's lucky to make it out of there with a couple thousand gold coins that will be gone the moment he replenishes his healing supplies. On a full day's hunt from morning to night with a level 18 mage, I managed to bring in 20,000 gold. I had to hit every place I could manage to solo and I was never able to do that again. The money was gone quickly, of course and it was another week before I could travel again as I'd run out of spots! I think his equipment alone cost him a total of 500,000 gold... or more.

Take inn rooms for instance... no commoner or farmer is paying 12 gold to stay one night in the Regal Griffon Inn. Those rooms aren't very nice.

My point is, we shouldn't compare the prices we pay with what commoners can afford because those are two different tables. Commoners don't pay our prices. They get much cheaper ..

I gotta ask of This was before or after the Nerf cause in the old days you Got over 50.000 for lvl 18-30 dugeons if you Were able to pull it off. But yes Price difference is insane from what would be in forgotten realms and what is nwn

[Lady Frost]

I agree that the prices are way different between cannon and NWN. However, they are different in a way that should be beneficial towards asking for gold.

In lore you might tithe a few coppers; tithing gold would be crazy for most. However, in NWN tithing a few gold is nothing. It shouldn't be uncommon for someone to ask for at the -least- 20 to 50 gold for healing. At the max there, that's only the cost of a healing kit. No temples in FRC give free healing or healing kits. In fact some charge hundreds of (up to a thousand) gold for spells. Even guild halls charge their members. But for some reason, everyone thinks PC's should give it for free. It doesn't seem logical to me.

[magiuss]

Oct 23, 2013 3:43:55 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

I agree that the prices are way different between cannon and NWN. However, they are different in a way that should be beneficial towards asking for gold.

In lore you might tithe a few coppers; tithing gold would be crazy for most. However, in NWN tithing a few gold is nothing. It shouldn't be uncommon for someone to ask for at the -least- 20 to 50 gold for healing. At the max there, that's only the cost of a healing kit. No temples in FRC give free healing or healing kits. In fact some charge hundreds of (up to a thousand) gold for spells. Even guild halls charge their members. But for some reason, everyone thinks PC's should give it for free. It doesn't seem logical to me.

I agree. Might be side stepping here But Ive seen People's ask money for wizards spells aswell make sence since ingrediens cost money aswell

[Defunct Fiddlesticks]

It's quite simple, if someone doesn't roleplay it, my healer has no reason to offer healing. But I have had instances where someone's been hurt, my healer has not offered healing because that person has not emoted they are hurt/bleeding or brushed it off. Then the person goes on to roleplay that they have passed out or suffered worse injuries and blamed MY character for not healing them.

My character is not incompetent or blind, he has eyes. Ilmateri train to recognize conditions by sight, they are meant to be among the best healers in the realms and if you're not going to rp being hurt then don't expect him to press the issue, I'll simply assume you don't want to be helped.

[Defunct Fiddlesticks]

Oct 23, 2013 3:43:55 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

I agree that the prices are way different between cannon and NWN. However, they are different in a way that should be beneficial towards asking for gold.

In lore you might tithe a few coppers; tithing gold would be crazy for most. However, in NWN tithing a few gold is nothing. It shouldn't be uncommon for someone to ask for at the -least- 20 to 50 gold for healing. At the max there, that's only the cost of a healing kit. No temples in FRC give free healing or healing kits. In fact some charge hundreds of (up to a thousand) gold for spells. Even guild halls charge their members. But for some reason, everyone thinks PC's should give it for free. It doesn't seem logical to me.

Henrik gives free healing and if someone asks if he will accept payment he tells them to tithe it to the House of Healing or they can make a non-coin donation. Some characters can't accept payment through religious(vow of poverty) or personal reasons, they may be hoping to look good politically or be doing it simply because they are unselfish.

While the House of Healing has a temple store and sells healing, my character does not. To quote an article "Ilmater has few soldiers and even fewer merchants".

[Trollfiend]

Unless I'm playing an evil PC, I don't charge for healing spells or lesser restoration. I know Ilmaeter and Selûne would rather cast a free heal than see someone suffer in need and I have chosen to play all my good casters the same way.

It's the same with my mages and lore. When I'm on an evil wizard, I will charge money for identifying magical items for people. There's no way in hell my evil mages are doing that for free. People will pay for it too if there are no good mages around.

The way I see it, even though this server has its temples over-charging PC's for healing, I will continue to play my healers as I would in source. I have never ever charged for healing in a table-top session of D&D and I won't here unless I'm playing evil.

[Deleted]

I honestly think some of this issue has to do with the fact that game mechanical values just flow way too easily. What I mean is, both damage and healing in large numbers of hit points are so easy to come by that healing really IS cheap and easy. When you can go to the local healer and buy 30 healing kits in one stack, to the tune of over 1000 hp worth of healing represented in that one stack 2,000 if your heal skill is high), and never have the supply at the temple run out, healing is very cheap and easy. Likewise, when you have combatants (especially powerfully built and equipped PC's) that can turn out 225 hit points of damage in one critical hit, damage is also extremely cheap and easy to the point of RP meaninglessness. I mean ... if I am on a level 3 character with 30 hit points, is a 225 hp damage crit any more lethal than a hit for 41? No. Either way, my character is dead. In the context of FRC, 30 hp worth of healing actually IS the equivalent of handing out a Band-Aid, or perhaps it's like even less, like simply kissing the boo-boo and making it better. I never knew anyone in real life to refuse a person a Band-Aid.

If you want RP to flourish on things like this, then you need to tone down the nuclear arms race of the numerical parts of the game mechanics. It's really, really hard to offer all the bells and whistles that NWN has to offer in terms of class levels, gear available, and abilities, and also foster the kind of quality role playing that depends on limitation of resources. To me, FRC is kind of a Monty Haul server that turns around and shames you when you don't role play as if you're broke. I'm kinda like, "Uh ... can we make up our mind which way we want it?" I love the server, don't get me wrong. I say that as "constructive criticism." When I really want to see something different, I do it as DM in my own tabletop sessions. But, that is definitely how I would characterize FRC.

[Trollfiend]

It's not the server's fault, really. It's the bastardization of 3.X edition table top which was poorly modified from 2.0, into a Multi-User game.

I've written pages on what's wrong with the healing system and it's not the server's fault. Even without max gear, a well built PC can hack another PC to death in a heartbeat- or withstand a beating from another PC for quite some time. There will always be either impossible PvP encounters or effortless ones and I'm referring to PC's at the same level.

The problem lies in the healing kits being the only source of healing that meets the demands of the high powered warrior types.

In 2nd Edition, player characters rolled hit points through 9th level. Then, they not only stopped rolling, but they no longer added in their constitution bonuses.

In 3rd, at 9th level, you're just getting started. At 20th level, you're unstoppable and even higher, you're past godlike. When a warrior with a con modifier of 5 reaches level 30 on FRC (which has its hit point rolls set to an automatic maximum), he now has 450 hit points. It's VERY possible to build a druid on this server, give him dragon shape at level 30+, and have him reach 1,000 HP.

How in Zeus's butt hole do you heal that with even a Mass Heal spell? It would take a Greater Restoration spell.

Cure Critical wounds was increased from 4d8 + 1 per level up to 20 to 6d8 + 2 per level up to 40 which means at level 30, you can heal from 36 to 78 HP with the spell. A range of 42 hit points. That's much better than it used to be, but not quite good enough.

Heal heals 150 straight across (lowered from fully healing someone) and Mass Heal is at 250 (reduced from 300 after being reduced from fully healing) --At least this is what it states on the forums.

Some PC's actually need two Mass Heals to get to full hit points.

Back to comparisons:

A level 30 fighter with a con bonus of 5 on this server - 450 hit points, or 480 with the toughness feat.
A level 30 fighter with a con bonus of +4 (maximum value for fighter types - all other classes get +2 maximum) - A maximum of 117 + 63 = 170 HP

480 > 170

That's best case scenario for both classes.. Of course the comparison doesn't stop there... In 3rd, there's no limit to con. Say a PC has a base of 18 and maxes out the bonuses to +12 for a 30 Con. and Toughness: 630 hit points. Barbarians get even more. I once made a half-orc on this server who got 15 hit points per level. Do you know what that meant? It meant that at level 5, he had 75 hit points! He also critted for insane amounts! He would hack away at mummies unable to do any real damage with his mundane greataxe and then WHAM! he'd kill it with one crit.

Of course, no one's going to max out their Constitution like that, but you can see how the healing spells can fall short. In 2nd Edition, healing spells made sense and they actually had ways to heal all the way to full. Now, the only one that can do it is Greater Restoration. My fighter mage actually walked around with scrolls of GRest. just because they do so much for you.

Unless you're level drained, you can heal with a healing kit far far more than you can with a spell and do it faster and more safely. Remove healing kits and over half of the dungeons become unbeatable. It's the same reason Raise Dead scrolls can be used by any class- even a fighter who has never cast a magical spell in his entire life and is completely illiterate can use a scroll of Raise Dead. It's because it's how this game works. I played on a server that restricted those scrolls to Clerics only and everyone was respawning left and right and just flat out stopped adventuring until it was changed back.

This game is not source and source is not this game. Not when it comes down to mechanics. That's why healing kits heal so much- it's because they have to. If they didn't, parties would die. A healing skill trumps healing spells. Yes, non-magical healing is superior than all but the strongest of spells. It takes a Heal, Mass Heal, or GRest. to trump non-magical healing. RP that.