Fenix
~
Sleepless Golem, aka Kenny
If you read this, send me a love note.
Posts: 2,183
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Post by Fenix on Feb 27, 2017 22:52:35 GMT -5
seriously, it goes from explaining going agaisnt the law from gambling to human sacrifice. thats a huge gap. Do you actually read a single post anybody writes, or do you just print it out, eat it, and write whatever you *chickenwing* out as a result? <3, Fk Face |
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Post by appleseedy on Feb 28, 2017 8:42:11 GMT -5
as far as i'm concerned go ahead and decide what lws you want to follow, break laws if you want to, whatever, its your character. Long as you follow the server rules its fine.
If you make a mistake, for example declaring war on the Malarite church -is- an error in judgement you can expect to fall for making. Torm has a history of making mistakes like attacking other religions so watch out. Declaring war on the high hunt and Malarites that take part in these hunts is a lawful action in Cormyr. But its the same with any judgement call you make, you get it wrong you can and should fall if your going up against the laws of the land.
Vigilantes, superheroes etc are/were uniformly Chaotic Good
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Post by Southpaw on Feb 28, 2017 14:45:57 GMT -5
following the wrong laws, simple enough. ill ask again...does my paladin have the right to distinguish between a good or bad law, one who should be followed and the other whom should not? simple stuff really. and yet everyone is telling me they have given me the answer, yet not... Whether you "can" or not depends on who you ask. So, if you ask ... The law: "No one can disobey me. I'm the law." Rulers: "I make the law. No one disobeys me. I only make good laws. Obey the law." Goodness: "You have to distinguish between good and bad laws. Only good ones are to be followed." Paladin's code: "Do what is good. Listen to goodness. Obey laws that are good or neutral, but don't follow evil ones." Good aligned deities: "Be a paladin. Listen to goodness. Do what is good. Obey good laws, don't obey bad ones." So there's conflict. If the law is good, everyone and everything that's good says to obey it. If it's evil, rulers will say to obey, the law will say to obey, PDK's will probably say to obey, but the paladin's code and deity say don't obey. You get different answers depending on which IC source you are asking the question. It's possible to be in a position where you could be put in jail for breaking the law, but fall as a paladin if you obey it. In Cormyr, probably not that often. But it's theoretically possible. |
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Post by marredwolf on Feb 28, 2017 19:17:07 GMT -5
from frc.wikia.com/wiki/Paladin again "...a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority," "A paladin respects the laws of other Lawful Good cultures and will not seek to impose his own values on their citizens." you accept these rules as truths but in fact they contradict each other. because...immediatly following that statement the next sentence reads: "However, a paladin will not honor a law that runs contrary to his alignment." the question is simple. who gets to decide whether that law runs contrary to his alignment? the paladin himself. both paladins and pdks (it is their -first- rule) if a law is wrong you don't follow it. who gets to decide that the law is wrong? again, the character himself. its a simple point, clearly spelled out. done. |
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 28, 2017 19:26:34 GMT -5
Yes all true. No one has denied this. I pointed out that Cormyr itself has no law forcing a paladin to be evil.
The allowence of other faiths to have churches and pray is an act of mercy. Those that go outside the law to do heinous acts are outside the law so im not sure what it is you thinking your character should be breaking. Law wise.
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Post by malclave on Feb 28, 2017 20:59:04 GMT -5
from frc.wikia.com/wiki/Paladin again "...a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority," "A paladin respects the laws of other Lawful Good cultures and will not seek to impose his own values on their citizens." you accept these rules as truths but in fact they contradict each other. because...immediatly following that statement the next sentence reads: "However, a paladin will not honor a law that runs contrary to his alignment." the question is simple. who gets to decide whether that law runs contrary to his alignment? the paladin himself. both paladins and pdks (it is their -first- rule) if a law is wrong you don't follow it. who gets to decide that the law is wrong? again, the character himself. its a simple point, clearly spelled out. done. "However, a paladin will not honor a law that runs contrary to his alignment." The authority (rulers, social structure, etc.) can still be respected while an individual law is not obeyed. I'm confused about how the line about not imposing values on another LG culture is supposed to contradict that statement, so I'm only specifically addressing the line about respecting authority. "who gets to decide that the law is wrong? again, the character himself." True. But the *player* doesn't get to decide that the character's actions are Lawful Good in the context of the campaign, or that no ramifications can come of them. |
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Post by appleseedy on Mar 1, 2017 3:45:15 GMT -5
from frc.wikia.com/wiki/Paladin again "...a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority," "A paladin respects the laws of other Lawful Good cultures and will not seek to impose his own values on their citizens." you accept these rules as truths but in fact they contradict each other. because...immediatly following that statement the next sentence reads: "However, a paladin will not honor a law that runs contrary to his alignment." the question is simple. who gets to decide whether that law runs contrary to his alignment? the paladin himself. both paladins and pdks (it is their -first- rule) if a law is wrong you don't follow it. who gets to decide that the law is wrong? again, the character himself. its a simple point, clearly spelled out. done. stop asking for permission. if you want to ask a specific question about, for example, declaring war on the Malarite church ask. If you have an example from the Cormyrian laws that runs contrary to your alignment lets hear it. I cant find any. I mean the penalty for attacking cats seems high but, meh history and you shouldn't be offended by being asked not to harm cats. PDK are a special class on FRC that require your PC to have been knighted, speaking out against the law wont get you knighted. |
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Post by marredwolf on Mar 1, 2017 5:15:47 GMT -5
the contradiction was that the first sentence says to obey authority, while the next sentence says that you dont have to (if you pc believes the law is wrong).
im not asking for permission. im asking this to clarify for me what the rules actually are and mean, which courses of action i can pursue. more to the point what does the first law of a pdk, and the oath of a paladin, means when it mentions that the paladin does not have to follow and can go actively against a law that he -hiumself- deems as wrong.
i tried to do this via a DM Q%A but i was rerouted. now im here trying to be polite to the fk face bullies who have followed me around in the past, with this unwelcomed obsession with me.
at this point i would like some courageous DM with a solid knowledge of the rules to step in and explain this so i can stop all this typing. then ill shut up.
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Post by FlyingMidget on Mar 1, 2017 5:35:25 GMT -5
I'd honestly say chill out, people have tried to help you, time and time again and you come across as condescending each and every time they answer your questions or outright ignore what they have taken the time to try and explain to you time and time again, prior to telling them to cut the bull *chickenwing* and answer your questions that you've asked rather impolitely while demanding that they answer them because you asked them, even though they had previously tried to explain things to you.
If you're unable to determine the answer to your questions from everything that so many people have tried time and time again to explain and constantly turn to insults, I'd suggest you open a private message with one of the DM team that you believe to be knowledgeable about the lore and rules associated with Forgotten Realms for their advice because you seem unwilling to read what anyone here has replied with so far.
This reply has been based solely on the contents of this thread,
FlyingMidget.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 6:06:45 GMT -5
Please dont mind me asking, but it's in the interest of trying to help you. Are you a native English speaker? If not, maybe there's someone else around who speaks your language who can try to answer your questions because there's apparently a great deal of unfortunate misunderstanding with the answers given to your questions so far.
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Post by malclave on Mar 1, 2017 8:03:58 GMT -5
the contradiction was that the first sentence says to obey authority, while the next sentence says that you dont have to (if you pc believes the law is wrong). That's not how I read it. I see the first sentences as generalities, and the one you say is contradictory as specific. Respecting authorities is acknowledging their right to temporal power; respecting the laws of a LG nation is respecting the body of laws as a whole. If a paladin believes that a specific law is actually Chaotic or Evil, though (and not just that it is "wrong"), then he will not follow that law. The form this disobedience takes would depend on specific circumstances and the paladin involved. |
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Post by Animayhem on Mar 1, 2017 10:43:19 GMT -5
I am aware this is an individual"s thread. Would it be possible to have maybe the actual rules for playing a paladin here extracted and summarized. Then have the questions of the original poster listed and the official responses put uner it maybe in the DM Q and A?
Seems many valid points here but a bit Chaotic.
Submitted respectfully.
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Post by hellscream123 on Mar 1, 2017 20:30:10 GMT -5
*Ahem* The Paladin Codethere is a thread on it, in huge detail, it also links into the orders of a Paladins that one must follow on the server. |
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Post by marredwolf on Mar 1, 2017 21:50:04 GMT -5
no, English its not my first language. but my best language is math and logic (equations) I'd honestly say chill out, people have tried to help you, time and time again and you come across as condescending each and every time... you may be right, but I disagree, ive come accross many hurdles, without writing you a paper, is that the question has not been answered but rather diverted. i have rarely run accross people trying to help me out (in this server). straight up bullying, on record if i'd care to dig that far, but *bleep-itty-bleep* them. you may not be aware of this. i appreciate the effort, but you are unaware of what my experiences have been through the past. "Respecting authorities is acknowledging their right to temporal power; respecting the laws of a LG nation is respecting the body of laws as a whole." not true when it comes to paladins and pdks. they hold the unique position to deem said laws as unlawful, not to be enforced, but rather to even go as far as being against. I am aware this is an individual"s thread. Would it be possible to have maybe the actual rules for playing a paladin here extracted and summarized. Submitted respectfully. yes, that would be awesome. this would be a welcomed edition to this thread and the community as a whole. as to why the DMs have not responded is the troubling news. i am merely looking for an explanation of the paladin's rules. this is my main goal. If a paladin believes that a specific law is actually Chaotic or Evil, though (and not just that it is "wrong"), then he will not follow that law. The form this disobedience takes would depend on specific circumstances and the paladin involved. exactly my point. the paladin decides whether such law is chaotic or evil, as per the rules, not the pre-conceived notions. *Ahem* The Paladin Code there is a thread on it, in huge detail, it also links into the orders of a Paladins that one must follow on the server. if your sources allows a paladin to distinguish between a bad law (one which he does not believe in obeying) and one that is a good law. then you may be reading about what im writing, as that is my point. my question would be: does it address the paladin's code of defining whether to follow or to declare a law as unlawful. again, this is a priveledge for paladins (and strangely enough pdks). as far as all the written texts ive read. bring them up here please if you find something to the contrary. i like the politeness and will still try to answer questions in a nice way, but i inform you that your questions have already been answered. |
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Post by hellscream123 on Mar 1, 2017 22:02:29 GMT -5
no, English its not my first language. but my best language is math and logic (equations) I'd honestly say chill out, people have tried to help you, time and time again and you come across as condescending each and every time... you may be right, but I disagree, ive come accross many hurdles, without writing you a paper, is that the question has not been answered but rather diverted. i have rarely run accross people trying to help me out (in this server). straight up bullying, on record if i'd care to dig that far, but *bleep-itty-bleep* them. you may not be aware of this. i appreciate the effort, but you are unaware of what my experiences have been through the past. "Respecting authorities is acknowledging their right to temporal power; respecting the laws of a LG nation is respecting the body of laws as a whole." not true when it comes to paladins and pdks. they hold the unique position to deem said laws as unlawful, not to be enforced, but rather to even go as far as being against. I am aware this is an individual"s thread. Would it be possible to have maybe the actual rules for playing a paladin here extracted and summarized. Submitted respectfully. yes, that would be awesome. this would be a welcomed edition to this thread and the community as a whole. as to why the DMs have not responded is the troubling news. i am merely looking for an explanation of the paladin's rules. this is my main goal. If a paladin believes that a specific law is actually Chaotic or Evil, though (and not just that it is "wrong"), then he will not follow that law. The form this disobedience takes would depend on specific circumstances and the paladin involved. exactly my point. the paladin decides whether such law is chaotic or evil, as per the rules, not the pre-conceived notions. *Ahem* The Paladin Code there is a thread on it, in huge detail, it also links into the orders of a Paladins that one must follow on the server. if your sources allows a paladin to distinguish between a bad law (one which he does not believe in obeying) and one that is a good law. then you may be reading about what im writing, as that is my point. my question would be: does it address the paladin's code of defining whether to follow or to declare a law as unlawful. again, this is a priveledge for paladins (and strangely enough pdks). as far as all the written texts ive read. bring them up here please if you find something to the contrary. i like the politeness and will still try to answer questions in a nice way, but i inform you that your questions have already been answered. Yes. A paladin can decide if a law is lawful chaotic good or evil. HOWEVER: If for whatever reason the law they claim false is not so. Within the eyes of their divine law. They risk falling for going against said law. This is represented by the DMs. No one is saying you cannot decide. All that is said is that; any decision by any palidin reguarding obeyance of a law is a risk to their divine status. (Or in the case of pdk their knighthood) |
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Post by appleseedy on Mar 2, 2017 3:14:31 GMT -5
honestly this is getting silly, any PC can decide a law is good bad dumb silly whatever they or you or anyone playing here likes.
You gotta follow the server rules not the IC Laws, you gotta accept the IC consequences of your IC actions, stop wriggling and squirming. Your upset cause you don't agree with the IC consequences you received for what are at the end of the day the IC actions your character took.
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Post by smacrasmacrasmacra on Mar 2, 2017 6:48:16 GMT -5
#EXEGESIS
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Post by Animayhem on Mar 2, 2017 10:55:43 GMT -5
honestly this is getting silly, any PC can decide a law is good bad dumb silly whatever they or you or anyone playing here likes. You gotta follow the server rules not the IC Laws, you gotta accept the IC consequences of your IC actions, stop wriggling and squirming. Your upset cause you don't agree with the IC consequences you received for what are at the end of the day the IC actions your character took. Marister had an incident where he felt he acted within his code and alignment. Other characters involved felt he did as well, however the dm thought other wise, so knocked him down a few points in alignment. Was I upset yes. Did I feel that my rp and character were ignored? Yes. There were discussions as to why though I still disagreed, I said to myself, screw it its a game, its not real and I am liking how my character is progressing. Marister has since gotten some points back due to rp and dm observation.
I regards to belief, Marister came uncertain as he felt the force of two dieties. However it was explained ooc why duality could not exist here. Again I was a bit upset but I decided to go for it. It was not easy and I rped it as such when I made my decision. It has worked out well.
Yes to some degree we play according to our moral standards and beliefs. However we must always remember that this is fantasy, there are ways to be true to your beliefs but still have fun.
If I may suggest you take a break from playing your paladin and maybe play another class where you can get a more general perspective of the laws.
Or you could have your paladin talk ic to other paladins, even if not your faith to get ideas on may how they averted their crisis. They may not reply but at least worth a try.
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Post by marredwolf on Mar 2, 2017 20:02:34 GMT -5
Your upset cause you don't agree with the IC consequences you received for what are at the end of the day the IC actions your character took. i have received -NO- consequences for my IC actions. as of the last time i checked. this is a game, it would take more than this to move me. what i dont abide in any way are bullies. and ive no reservations in scorching a thread over it. Wurek is currently praying outside the house of healing as i try and sort out this discussion about the paladin's code or following laws or whatnot. So when i do play again ill be in compliance. |
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Post by hellscream123 on Mar 2, 2017 20:43:21 GMT -5
Your upset cause you don't agree with the IC consequences you received for what are at the end of the day the IC actions your character took. i have received -NO- consequences for my IC actions. as of the last time i checked. this is a game, it would take more than this to move me. what i dont abide in any way are bullies. and ive no reservations in scorching a thread over it. Wurek is currently praying outside the house of healing as i try and sort out this discussion about the paladin's code or following laws or whatnot. So when i do play again ill be in compliance. What question do you have left then? |
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Post by Razgriz on Mar 2, 2017 20:48:37 GMT -5
Your upset cause you don't agree with the IC consequences you received for what are at the end of the day the IC actions your character took. i have received -NO- consequences for my IC actions. as of the last time i checked. this is a game, it would take more than this to move me. what i dont abide in any way are bullies. and ive no reservations in scorching a thread over it. Wurek is currently praying outside the house of healing as i try and sort out this discussion about the paladin's code or following laws or whatnot. So when i do play again ill be in compliance. I do not know what occurred between you and the DM(s) who watched Wurek's actions the most. Depending how that went, then maybe that could be why nothing has "happened" to him -yet-. Still, you came to this thread trying to justify Wurek's actions, when none of us was even mentioning him before you did. When others did not agree with your reasoning, you now want to dedrail and scorch the thread? Honestly, you should have left your paladin out of the discussion and asked in general anything that you needed clarified. |
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Post by Extropy on Mar 2, 2017 22:25:18 GMT -5
I separated this thread from the main post because I want both threads to be able to go forward as (separate) meaningful discussions.
I find it's much easier for this to occur if the threads of conversation are in separate forum threads. If you have an issue with this, please pm me directly.
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Post by marredwolf on Mar 3, 2017 19:42:25 GMT -5
"-yet-" it would be very interesting if that occurred. as a matter of fact i was trying to make it more significant so it becomes a rp instance instead of a bleep in the system. however, i dont see the dms being very interested in this enough to fulfill your wish, and mine. (side note: i did receive an alignment shift) When others did not agree with your reasoning, you now want to dedrail and scorch the thread? not 'when you disagree with' but if you're bullying someone. you twist words like you really want to win. the bullies from this thread have gone silent, so no, im not trying to derail the thread, but like i said i -will- do it if i see it happening.. Still, you came to this thread trying to justify Wurek's actions... the new title for this thread is much better than the last one. i "came to this thread" to discuss the paladin class, the code to be specific, as it relates to laws. of course im talking about Wurek because he's the paladin that i play. does that allow me to post on this thread in accordance with your divine reasoning? the paladin code has a major flaw that needs to be explained in better detail. besides the use of poison (is that enough to fail?) ive no need, at this moment to justify Wurek's actions... let the gods decide. the dms were there and they can answer that question already. |
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Fenix
~
Sleepless Golem, aka Kenny
If you read this, send me a love note.
Posts: 2,183
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Post by Fenix on Mar 3, 2017 19:51:50 GMT -5
When others did not agree with your reasoning, you now want to dedrail and scorch the thread? i never said i was going to do this to this thread, only to those where i find the blatant bullies pushing people around, you twist words like you really want to win. the bullies from this thread have gone silent, so no, i not trying to derail the thread, but like i said i -will- do it if i see it happening.. Still, you came to this thread trying to justify Wurek's actions... the new title for this thread is much better than the last one. i "came to this thread" to discuss the paladin class, the code to be specific, as it relates to laws. of course im talking about Wurek because he's the paladin that i play. does that allow me to post on this thread in accordance with your divine reasoning? the paladin code has a major flaw that needs to be explained in better detail. But they did. And because you don't agree, they're wrong. It was explained several times. But still, everyone else is wrong. Believe it or not, just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean they are wrong. When a majority of people tell you the same thing, they are not wrong because you don't agree. I don't think someone is wrong because -i- don't agree with them. Except you. I think you're wrong. <3, Fk Face. |
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Post by hellscream123 on Mar 3, 2017 21:50:48 GMT -5
The paladin oath isn't contradictory. There is an exemption clause that is designed to allow a paladin to try and overthrow tyranical or evil laws and kingdoms.
In this concept a law maker (whatever that may be) is no longer a "legitmate" authority to the paladin. As they are obviously evil.
Paladins reapect and uphold the laws of LAWFUL GOOD cultures like neverwinter or cormyr as they are legitimate and truely just rulers and kingdoms in the eyes of their orders and Gods.
When evil exploits a loophole the law is not evil because of what an evil soul was allowed to do by exploiting it. A law is evil of it allows evil blatantly and flatly.
I.E everyone can sacrifice first borns to lord Bane.
If the kingdom and the laws are not evil then a paladin shouldn't be breaking the law. They should work within and beside it to improve and strengthen the law.
Does this explain what you're seeing??
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Post by hellscream123 on Mar 4, 2017 4:03:14 GMT -5
A good read into the past that sadly doesn't effect us greatly until he speaks about the paladins we have here. Specifically 3.X ed pally. Atop of that various amounts of paladin "rules" that we've been discussing aren't from the players handbook. But from the sourcebooks of the forgotten realms. And FR is the default realm of 3.X Looking forward to part 4. I giggled about the various mechanical silliness attachted to older d&d. |
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Post by hellscream123 on Mar 4, 2017 17:24:37 GMT -5
That's an interesting take but its still not the paladins of the forgotten realms and 3.x you've described a zealotous murder hobo evil hunter that the church is somewhat aftaid of and thus points them at a battle.
The knightly orders of fearun are honourable institutions of teaching and faith. Mercy is often as important than justice. There's even the order of the merciful sword; which all about mercy over murder hobo.
The extentions of paladins alignments weren't ever defined to appear in Fearun to my kbowledge. Only the orders detailed in the Lore of the Realms Paladins Orders thread.
A paladin will always be at risk of falling for their actions. It is a core part of their class and why their actions most be so focused and defined against evil.
If they just murder hobod without remorse and never offeres mercy most of the goodly gods wpuld fail them on their knightly virtues test.
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Post by lucid on Mar 4, 2017 18:05:19 GMT -5
This is the most Lawful thread I've ever seen. I mean it's like the poster for everything wrong with the alignment. Chaos has some crazy but this is nuts.
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Post by hellscream123 on Mar 4, 2017 19:45:20 GMT -5
Only due to the writting of the setting we agree to. Other worlds have much more diverse and flexible paladins in terms of alignment, allowences and codes.
The forgotten realms however has the Orders of the paladin thread. Or pure class god sworn paladins. Orders gain specific rules of conduct. Godsworn use the base rules of conduct as described multiple times.
This will never be everyones version of fun or everyones wanting from a paladin. Bit to my understanding it's the class that we have. The mechanics of the class come with these rules here in FRC.
By no means do i think that forgotten realms does them well or is well written. But it's the rules we agree to by playing here. The rules here aren't guidlines. They're rules and its upon the Admins to change them if they wish.
Rule one is indeed have fun. But it infers fun from within the rest of the rules you agree to.
Personally I'd prefer paladins where able to have the same alingment steps of clerics. Thus altering their entire oath system put of the realm of Lawful Goodly stupid. But here they cant. They're lawful Good and must be whenever they're in a Goodly realm, like say: Cormyr.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 0:48:18 GMT -5
This is the most Lawful thread I've ever seen. I mean it's like the poster for everything wrong with the alignment. Chaos has some crazy but this is nuts. Every now and then Lucid I am reminded why you're *bleeping* awesome.  |
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