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Post by marredwolf on Feb 27, 2017 19:02:58 GMT -5
i value politeness, and i thank those who value it as well. however, to quote a movie i like...
"...in order to find his equal an irishman is forced to talk to god. the almighty says dont change the subject just answer the *bleeping* question..."
the rules clearly states that a paladin (and the first rule of a pdk manual that my pc owns) allows that said person can distinguished between a law that is right or wrong. have i missread this?
does my paladin (and pdk apparently) have the liberty, or duty or whatever, to distinguish which laws he will enforce and which ones he can go agaisnt?
as i read it, and im not stupid (enough) it clearly states that the judgement of whether a law is right or wrong, should be followed or not, is up to this paladin (pdk). where is the evidence otherwise?
just to mention, my paladin is currently outside a temple asking those who pass by to pray for him. this is symbolic to make changes in the pc in order to be compliant with his god's dogma. the answers that i get from you guys here will shape him, but i cant use stuff that doesnt make sense. please answer the question above. previous attempts have failed.
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Feb 27, 2017 19:20:27 GMT -5
i value politeness, and i thank those who value it as well. however, to quote a movie i like... "...in order to find his equal an irishman is forced to talk to god. the almighty says dont change the subject just answer the *bleeping* question..." the rules clearly states that a paladin (and the first rule of a pdk manual that my pc owns) allows that said person can distinguished between a law that is right or wrong. have i missread this? does my paladin (and pdk apparently) have the liberty, or duty or whatever, to distinguish which laws he will enforce and which ones he can go agaisnt? as i read it, and im not stupid (enough) it clearly states that the judgement of whether a law is right or wrong, should be followed or not, is up to this paladin (pdk). where is the evidence otherwise? just to mention, my paladin is currently outside a temple asking those who pass by to pray for him. this is symbolic to make changes in the pc in order to be compliant with his god's dogma. the answers that i get from you guys here will shape him, but i cant use stuff that doesnt make sense. please answer the question above. We've answered this directly about four times now. No, your character is not a Purple Dragon Knight either. He has not been knighted to the best of my knowledge- most characters who have been in the past have been a part of the RCMH, which Wurek was rejected for. (I should know, my character Kori was both a part of the RCMH when he was rejected and has been knighted as a PDK of Cormyr) Your character has no legal standing to enforce or ignore/break any of Cormyr's laws. None of the paladins do unless they are a part of the RCMH, which is the only guild allowing law enforcement abilities in the name of Cormyr. The Inquisitors of Valkur's Roar had a (very) limited purview over the city of Valkur's Roar, but that is not Cormyr-wide nor do they speak for the Crown of Cormyr. I'm currently digging up a link from the DMs for you, I'll edit when I get it. Edit: Here's the link for you. This describes the only times at which a PC is allowed to enforce the law when they are not a part of the Cormyrian armed forces, namely the RCMH. These are announced on the forums in the same boards that the following link is located within. Click me! (Link)As many have said, again, your character can decide if he thinks laws are just or unjust. Any character can do so. But your paladin may be penalized if he's wrong in that judgement. |
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 27, 2017 19:21:16 GMT -5
Enforce yes. Go against yes, but not in the path of vigilante. A paladin must still remain lawful even when going against a law he sees as unjust. For to play at unjustices own game makes him no better than the evil he fights.
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Post by marredwolf on Feb 27, 2017 19:26:42 GMT -5
what you are saying is that the system, the governance, decides what is law. but it is clearly defined by the paladin's code (and weirdly enough) the pdks code that the individual decides whether the law is right or wrong. this is written down stuff, and i find it quite frustrating that you refuse to accept this very real stated position. "follow the law unless it is wrong.." or something to that affect, am i right? perhaps a fifth explanation might make more sense. is this not written in the book that taught you to be a RCMH?
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Feb 27, 2017 19:28:01 GMT -5
Enforce yes. Go against yes, but not in the path of vigilante. A paladin must still remain lawful even when going against a law he sees as unjust. For to play at unjustices own game makes him no better than the evil he fights. This is incorrect, please see my prior reply for a link and explanation. Enforcement is not a power granted to paladins or any other character except by DM oversight, or the Bounties/Warrants issued by DMs unless one is a part of the RCMH. what you are saying is that the system, the governance, decides what is law. but it is clearly defined by the paladin's code (and weirdly enough) the pdks code that the individual decides whether the law is right or wrong. this is written down stuff, and i find it quite frustrating that you refuse to accept this very real stated position. "follow the law unless it is wrong.." or something to that affect, am i right? perhaps a fifth explanation might make more sense. is this not written in the book that taught you to be a RCMH? The paladin's code does not define laws, it defines rules that a paladin must live by if they are to remain a paladin. The code of the Purple Dragon Knight is a guideline of loose 'rules' that signify the attributes a Purple Dragon Knight should portray. You're simply misunderstanding the break between the three bits of writing. They are separate bodies and do not interact directly. Summary: Laws of Cormyr: The laws that all characters and NPCs are subject to. Someone may choose to break them and face consequences as defined by those laws. These are anything from fines, to imprisonment, to execution. Paladin Code: The code a paladin lives by to remain in accordance with their deity's wishes. If a paladin breaks any of these rules, they will fall as a paladin or, at the least, receive a warning of some variety from their deity. Code of the Purple Dragon Knight: A code for those who are knighted by the Crown of Cormyr. This is a list of attributes and loose 'rules' that a Knight should show in their day-to-day activities and relationships with others. |
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Post by Viridian Knight on Feb 27, 2017 19:33:03 GMT -5
I think you should ask the question why would "my" paladin go against the laws, when the majority of paladins in Cormyr (PC's and represented as well as non-represented NPCs) appear fine with working within the law and their deity appears to accept such. Numerous responses have been given, you do not appear to care for the answer given and claim you value politeness before essentially telling people "dont change the subject just answer the *bleeping* question..." which is pretty funny when you consider people have answered such even though your questions aren't really the subject of this thread to begin with.
VK.
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Post by Fenix on Feb 27, 2017 19:38:32 GMT -5
I think you should ask the question why would "my" paladin go against the laws, when the majority of paladins in Cormyr (PC's and represented as well as non-represented NPCs) appear fine with working within the law and their deity appears to accept such. Numerous responses have been given, you do not appear to care for the answer given and claim you value politeness before essentially telling people "dont change the subject just answer the *bleeping* question..." which is pretty funny when you consider people have answered such even though your questions aren't really the subject of this thread to begin with. VK. Stop changing the subject. <3, Fk Face |
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Post by marredwolf on Feb 27, 2017 19:40:36 GMT -5
a guideline? and one that you seem to ignore? a rule that a paladin must live by but it does not define law? of course it doesnt, it is a disagreement between the paladin and those who make the laws (a wrong law in this example).
im not looking at what the kingdom and those in power think. i am not looking for something that ":is not a power granted to paladins", the paladin decides for himself, regardless of whether the powers that be, the governance, agree or not. to put it simply, im not looking for persmission, my paladin code gives me all the permission i need.
i dont need your laws to give me oversight, i can just decide that your laws are wrong. it is within my paladin's code to do so and it is within my right to decide whether your laws should be followed or not. you can call that anti-lawful but i can in turn call you unlawfull for the same thing.
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Post by Fenix on Feb 27, 2017 19:43:44 GMT -5
a guideline? and one that you seem to ignore? a rule that a paladin must live by but it does not define law? of course it doesnt, it is a disagreement between the paladin and those who make the laws (a wrong law in this example). im not looking at what the kingdom and those in power think. i am not looking for something that ":is not a power granted to paladins", the paladin decides for himself, regardless of whether the powers that be, the governance, agree or not. to put it simply, im not looking for persmission, my paladin code gives me all the permission i need. i dont need your laws to give me oversight, i can just decide that your laws are wrong. it is within my paladin's code to do so and it is within my right to decide whether your laws should be followed or not. you can call that anti-lawful but i can in turn call you unlawfull for the same thing. I mean like, not following laws is the definition of unlawful. You can choose to do whatever you want. But that doesnt mean you're right for it. Or that your god will like you for it. |
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Feb 27, 2017 19:49:12 GMT -5
a guideline? and one that you seem to ignore? a rule that a paladin must live by but it does not define law? of course it doesnt, it is a disagreement between the paladin and those who make the laws (a wrong law in this example). im not looking at what the kingdom and those in power think. i am not looking for something that ":is not a power granted to paladins", the paladin decides for himself, regardless of whether the powers that be, the governance, agree or not. to put it simply, im not looking for persmission, my paladin code gives me all the permission i need. i dont need your laws to give me oversight, i can just decide that your laws are wrong. it is within my paladin's code to do so and it is within my right to decide whether your laws should be followed or not. you can call that anti-lawful but i can in turn call you unlawfull for the same thing. Purple Dragon Knights, again, are not paladins. Anyone may be knighted by the Crown of Cormyr for their service to the country. These are guidelines because they are under oath to follow the laws of the nation and protect Cormyr, but are not under oath to act any given way. If you mean the paladin's code, those are firm rules that a paladin must live by. If the paladin chooses to break these rules, they will fall. If they wish to break the Laws of Cormyr, then they may be punished in accordance with the law- and if they break a just law, even if they feel it unjust, they may violate their paladin's oaths and fall from grace as a paladin. If you want to go break laws, fine, do so. But I've been trying to say that a paladin's code and the nation's laws are different. Cormyr, however, is a very lawful nation with generally-just laws. If you make the wrong judgement call, you might fall as a paladin. And if you're caught breaking laws, saying 'I'm a paladin' won't save you from any consequences. Either from Cormyr or your deity. |
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Post by marredwolf on Feb 27, 2017 19:49:31 GMT -5
following the wrong laws, simple enough. ill ask again...does my paladin have the right to distinguish between a good or bad law, one who should be followed and the other whom should not? simple stuff really. and yet everyone is telling me they have given me the answer, yet not...
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Feb 27, 2017 19:52:44 GMT -5
following the wrong laws, simple enough. ill ask again...does my paladin have the right to distinguish between a good or bad law, one who should be followed and the other whom should not? simple stuff really. and yet everyone is telling me they have given me the answer, yet not... Okay, this is about as clear as I can make it, since I've said it about four times in proper English and with as much explanation as it warrants: Your paladin can choose to follow the laws or break them. That being said, you could fall for breaking the wrong law, whether or not you're caught in the act. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2017 20:07:28 GMT -5
Yes, a paladin can have his own - as all sentient creatures who nominally have free will - opinion on if a law is just or unjust. It is the actions taken on those opinions that will make or break the paladin. It's one of the many reasons to why paladins are one of the hardest classes to roleplay.
If you're looking for a black and white answer - a yes or a no - you might not ever find one.
I believe it is ultimately up to a paladins order and deity to decide if a law is just or unjust; a paladin should inherently know this as set by his orders strictures and the oaths the paladin takes. If a law is at odds with the paladins order then a paladin will work as lawfully as he still can within the confines of his order, but he wont be obligated to honor that law if it means breaking his alignment.
If a paladin takes it upon himself to decide outside of whats set by his order and deity what laws he should follow then he risks, as Fluffy and many others have said already, making a bad judgement that conflicts with his order, deity, and alignment and subsequently become at risk of falling. It comes down to Lawful vs Chaotic, Good vs Evil, and thats debatable forever and best left to the DMs to decide on.
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Post by marredwolf on Feb 27, 2017 20:08:20 GMT -5
anyone can do that.
does the rules/guidelines/oaths give a paladin an authority not given to other classes in determining whether a law is to be followed or not? this is clearly spelled out in the rules of frc about paladins, that ive read. it is in fact the first rule of the pdks, funny enough (yes, pdks are not paladins, i know, but your difficult method of an exchange of ideas is trying very hard to hide the fact that they share the same controversial rule)
lets try it again...
does my paladin have holy authority to decide whether a law is right or wrong, followed or against, within the paladin's (and pdks) code? if it is within his own religion, is he authorized to make such a distinction?
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Feb 27, 2017 20:22:11 GMT -5
anyone can do that. does the rules/guidelines/oaths give a paladin an authority not given to other classes in determining whether a law is to be followed or not? this is clearly spelled out in the rules of frc about paladins, that ive read. it is in fact the first rule of the pdks, funny enough (yes, pdks are not paladins, i know, but your difficult method of an exchange of ideas is trying very hard to hide the fact that they share the same controversial rule) lets try it again... does my paladin have holy authority to decide whether a law is right or wrong, followed or against, within the paladin's (and pdks) code? if it is within his own religion, is he authorized to make such a distinction? No. They have no extra authority beyond the moral high ground. If you want to quote some passages, we're all ears. PDKs have no more authority than any paladin unless they're part of the RCMH.He can decide if he wants to follow a law or not on a personal basis. If you need help judging whether or not a law is seen as just, you can either post a DM Q&A or ask one in-game. |
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Post by malclave on Feb 27, 2017 20:29:14 GMT -5
the rules clearly states that a paladin (and the first rule of a pdk manual that my pc owns) allows that said person can distinguished between a law that is right or wrong. have i missread this? does my paladin (and pdk apparently) have the liberty, or duty or whatever, to distinguish which laws he will enforce and which ones he can go agaisnt? as i read it, and im not stupid (enough) it clearly states that the judgement of whether a law is right or wrong, should be followed or not, is up to this paladin (pdk). where is the evidence otherwise? I think you're conflating the player and the character. A character gets to decide his actions. If he sees someone kicking a cat and decides to enforce that law by sticking a poisoned knife between the villain's ribs, he can do so. However, as players, we don't get to decide the game rules... the player doesn't get to define that action as Lawful Good when a DM brings in-character (law enforcement) and out-of-character (alignment change) consequences. Yes, the player can argue his case (perhaps successfully in a less ad absurdum example), but it's ultimately the DM's call. |
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 27, 2017 20:35:34 GMT -5
Claiming a law unjust however doesn't give the paladin rights to break it in their opposition. They can do speeches, conduct hearings and request audiences with local lords in an attempt to have the law changed for the better.
But if they break the law, that is CHAOTIC; even where the law is evil, breaking it is still Chaotic.
In the case of an Evil law the action of breaking it can be good, but is no longer Lawful as you are literally breaking a lawful code.
A paladin must by the definition of the class and the setting of the Forgotten Realms: Be Lawful and Good at the same time at all times.
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 27, 2017 20:40:02 GMT -5
malclave[/quote]I think you're conflating the player and the character. A character gets to decide his actions. If he sees someone kicking a cat and decides to enforce that law by sticking a poisoned knife between the villain's ribs, he can do so. [/quote] Normal knife: yes. Poison: no, no. This has been brought up before. Paladins in FR must use weapons of Chivalry: The medieval code of fair combat between knights, to defeat their villains in martial combat. Bows, axes, swords, pitchfork doesn't matter so long as the weapon isn't under handed or of evil origin. Poison in the forgotten realms, is flatly Evil. This is why the God of Poison and Plague, is evil, Chaotic Evil no less.
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Post by Razgriz on Feb 27, 2017 20:43:49 GMT -5
A paladin must by the definition of the class and the setting of the Forgotten Realms: Be Lawful and Good at the same time at all times. This has been said before, but if the law is unjust and evil, the paladin can and -should- actually break it. Striving to uphold tyranny and corruption is worse than becoming a rebel. Upholding unjust laws is evil and in this case, good takes precedence over law. The paladin does not break any code if he becomes a rebel in situations where the law is corrupted. Paladins are lawful because their oaths and because they upold just law, not because they uphold any law at any time. We however are not playing in FRC Thay or FRC Zhentil Keep. Thus, Cormyr's laws are taken as just in most circumstances. Wurek is tormish, so if he feels like a law in Cormyr is not what it should be, he should look for ways to improve it or alernatives for it as well. Breaking it will have consequences though. If the law he broke is just, then he risks falling from grace. If the law he broke is unjust, then only the authorities will have problems with him. |
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 27, 2017 20:48:51 GMT -5
A paladin must by the definition of the class and the setting of the Forgotten Realms: Be Lawful and Good at the same time at all times. This has been said before, but if the law is unjust and evil, the paladin can and -should- actually break it. Striving to uphold tyranny and corruption is worse than becoming a rebel. Upholding unjust laws is evil and in this case, good takes precedence over law. The paladin does not break any code if he becomes a rebel in situations where the law is corrupted. Paladins are lawful because their oaths and because they upold just law, not because they uphold any law at any time. We however are not playing in FRC Thay or FRC Zhentil Keep. Thus, Cormyr's laws are taken as just in most circumstances. Wurek is tormish, so if he feels like a law in Cormyr is not what it should be, he should look for ways to improve it or alernatives for it as well. Breaking it will have consequences though. If the law he broke is just, then he risks flling. If the law he broke is unjust, then only the authorities will have problems with him. I did speak about evil laws and the core of their actions in doing so: Claiming a law unjust however doesn't give the paladin rights to break it in their opposition. They can do speeches, conduct hearings and request audiences with local lords in an attempt to have the law changed for the better. But if they break the law, that is CHAOTIC; even where the law is evil, breaking it is still Chaotic. In the case of an Evil law the action of breaking it can be good, but is no longer Lawful as you are literally breaking a lawful code. While the above is an extreme simplification of Law and Chaos in FR I didn't say he had to uphold an Evil law, but suggest working against it without breaking it, to me that is Both lawful and Good. Remaining in the law while attempting to remove evil . |
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Post by marredwolf on Feb 27, 2017 20:49:45 GMT -5
From: frc.wikia.com/wiki/Paladin"...However, a paladin will not honor a law that runs contrary to his alignment. A government may believe that unregulated gambling provides a harmless diversion, but a paladin may determine that the policy has resulted in devastating poverty and despair. In the paladin's mind, the government is guilty of a lawless act by promoting an exploitative and destructive enterprise. In response, the paladin may encourage citizens to refrain from gambling, or he may work to change the law. Particularly abhorrent practices, such as slavery and torture {the high hunt}, may force the paladin to take direct action. It doesn't matter if these practices are culturally acceptable or sanctioned by well-meaning officials. The paladin's sense of justice compels him to intervene and alleviate as much suffering as he can. Note, though, that time constraints, inadequate resources, and other commitments may limit his involvement. While a paladin might wish for a cultural revolution in a society that tolerates cannibalism, he may have to content himself with rescuing a few victims before circumstances force him to leave the area Occasionally, edicts from different sources may conflict. For instance, a paladin's church might issue an edict that clashes with an edict from his government. In most cases, religious edicts take priority over edicts from other sources. In all cases, a paladin's strictures and core principles have priority over strictures issued by any social institution. Though most paladins adhere to all of the virtues described below, exceptions are possible." |
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 27, 2017 20:52:40 GMT -5
From: frc.wikia.com/wiki/Paladin"...However, a paladin will not honor a law that runs contrary to his alignment. A government may believe that unregulated gambling provides a harmless diversion, but a paladin may determine that the policy has resulted in devastating poverty and despair. In the paladin's mind, the government is guilty of a lawless act by promoting an exploitative and destructive enterprise. In response, the paladin may encourage citizens to refrain from gambling, or he may work to change the law. Particularly abhorrent practices, such as slavery and torture {the high hunt}, may force the paladin to take direct action. It doesn't matter if these practices are culturally acceptable or sanctioned by well-meaning officials. The paladin's sense of justice compels him to intervene and alleviate as much suffering as he can. Note, though, that time constraints, inadequate resources, and other commitments may limit his involvement. While a paladin might wish for a cultural revolution in a society that tolerates cannibalism, he may have to content himself with rescuing a few victims before circumstances force him to leave the area Occasionally, edicts from different sources may conflict. For instance, a paladin's church might issue an edict that clashes with an edict from his government. In most cases, religious edicts take priority over edicts from other sources. In all cases, a paladin's strictures and core principles have priority over strictures issued by any social institution. Though most paladins adhere to all of the virtues described below, exceptions are possible." The high hunt is not an "accepted" cultural act. But an evil illegal act by evil people. This is why we get to go down, cut them down and bring some peace to those souls harmed by it. The allowance of the faith is just that. Allowance of prayer, not making the High Hunt a legal and accepted act. Multiple Malarite characters in fact have claimed that those of the Hight Hunt quest and other Malar dungeons are blasphemers and deviants working against their lords wishes. Yes this is mostly to cover their ass but it's still the stance of the Church itself and accepted by the governing body of Cormyr that the majority of the church is not at fault for the actions of these evil souls. Yes this is partly evidence of corruption but there isn't a law in comryr letting people enslave and hunt the worlds most dangerous game: There are Evil People doing Evil outside the law. |
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Post by Razgriz on Feb 27, 2017 20:56:23 GMT -5
Yes, it is a chaotic action, but the paladin is breaking a law, not breaking his lawful code for -not- upholding said law.
Yes, he should look for means to change the unjust law without breaking it first, but if there is no other choice, then breaking it will not bring the wrath of his deity to him.
Edit: And yes, the High Hunt is not a legal practice in Cormyr at this time. The nobles who practice it are doing doing it in secrecy.
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 27, 2017 21:00:31 GMT -5
Yes, it is a chaotic action, but the paladin is breaking a law, not breaking his lawful code for nor upholding said law. Yes, he should look for means to change the unjust law without breaking it first, but if there is no other choice, then breaking it will not bring him the wrath of his deity. I read laws as lawful codes,my bad. Though I must agree in the case of a truly evil law it is unlikely to be lawful. As Lawful Evil tends to be about bending the allowance of the Law rather than cooking up flatly evil ones. in this example one could say the allowance of Malar's worship is what has lead to the actions of those whom partake in the high hunt against humanoids of the realm. However one should therefore attempt to repeal the law, rather than break a dozen others trying to prove that the actions of others are the fault of a church. One to me is Lawful, the latter is Chaotic, even if chaotic towards a good cause. Break too many windows and you've ruined a glass house. |
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Post by marredwolf on Feb 27, 2017 21:01:27 GMT -5
i get to decide what that is, not you. the dms of course, but not you. |
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Feb 27, 2017 21:04:15 GMT -5
i get to decide what that is, not you. the dms of course, but not you. That's... never been in question from anyone. It's also been said multiple times that if you have any particular law in mind or question to ask the DMs in-game or to post to the Q&A section. All the other questions here have spanned the gamut of what is acceptable for a paladin to do, which has been discussed heavily. |
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 27, 2017 21:05:38 GMT -5
in this you are correct, but in deciding what he believes is contrary you therefore must accept any and all consequence from such.
Poison is still a no, no and while you may blame the High Hunt upon a law, this means that -only- that law which allows it, can be "safely" broken.
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Post by marredwolf on Feb 27, 2017 21:07:48 GMT -5
seriously, it goes from explaining going agaisnt the law from gambling to human sacrifice. thats a huge gap.
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 27, 2017 21:10:06 GMT -5
seriously, it goes from explaining going agaisnt the law from gambling to human sacrifice. thats a huge gap. wouldn't that therefore suggest that only the most heinous and truly vicious of allowed evil within the law, should be broken? See it's suggestion against gambling is quite tame: preach against it and advise alternative. For human sacrifice and similar then and only then does it suggest that the law must be broken for the good of all |
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Post by blink on Feb 27, 2017 21:19:00 GMT -5
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