|
|
Post by marredwolf on Feb 22, 2017 15:43:10 GMT -5
trying to get my stuff together so im in compliance. some questions:
the source (dungeons.wikia.com) says that a paladin must "act with honor...not using poison"
honor is a term that i find hard to define. the wiki spells out examples. is this universal honor or can you have your own code of honor. what is honor anyway? if i can save a life by giving up my honor, is that an evil act? a personal sacrifice to save others is a wrong act?
can a paladin get away with using poison if he/she repents in some way afterwards or everyday?
this is under the code of conduct for a paladin whihc says:
"...she ever willingly commits an evil act." will then fail as a paladin.
why i stated earlier that intention was more important than methods. does "willingly commits an evil act" mean that i can unwillingly do the same and get away with it? (again, the road to hell" my will was to do good, but instead i did evil, my methods sucked). also (looking at that 'evil thread') what is an evil act? is it written down somewhere or is it up to the dm? im sure some are quite clear, but others are not.
is losing some honor an evil act or important enough to make a paladin fall?
if i wanted to fight an enemy but if i raised my sword and called him out to fight, i would be obliterated. Would I then be allowed to persue more subversive methods in order to win? you can have your honor but you would be dead/fail/others dead, or you can simply play it smart and find a way to win. would i even have that choice available to me?
|
|
Fenix
~
Sleepless Golem, aka Kenny
If you read this, send me a love note.
Posts: 2,183
|
Post by Fenix on Feb 22, 2017 15:57:02 GMT -5
trying to get my stuff together so im in compliance. some questions: the source (dungeons.wikia.com) says that a paladin must "act with honor...not using poison" honor is a term that i find hard to define. the wiki spells out examples. is this universal honor or can you have your own code of honor. what is honor anyway? if i can save a life by giving up my honor, is that an evil act? a personal sacrifice to save others is a wrong act? can a paladin get away with using poison if he/she repents in some way afterwards or everyday? this is under the code of conduct for a paladin whihc says: "...she ever willingly commits an evil act." will then fail as a paladin. why i stated earlier that intention was more important than methods. does "willingly commits an evil act" mean that i can unwillingly do the same and get away with it? (again, the road to hell" my will was to do good, but instead i did evil, my methods sucked). also (looking at that 'evil thread') what is an evil act? is it written down somewhere or is it up to the dm? im sure some are quite clear, but others are not. is losing some honor an evil act or important enough to make a paladin fall? if i wanted to fight an enemy but if i raised my sword and called him out to fight, i would be obliterated. Would I then be allowed to persue more subversive methods in order to win? you can have your honor but you would be dead/fail/others dead, or you can simply play it smart and find a way to win. would i even have that choice available to me? Definition of honor 1 a : good name or public esteem : reputation b : a showing of usually merited respect : recognition <pay honor to our founder> 2 : privilege <had the honor of joining the captain for dinner> 3 : a person of superior standing —now used especially as a title for a holder of high office <if Your Honor please> 4 : one whose worth brings respect or fame : credit <an honor to the profession> 5 : the center point of the upper half of an armorial escutcheon 6 : an evidence or symbol of distinction: such as a : an exalted title or rank b (1) : badge, decoration (2) : a ceremonial rite or observance <buried with full military honors> c : an award in a contest or field of competition d archaic : a gesture of deference : bow e honors plural (1) : an academic distinction conferred on a superior student (2) : a course of study for superior students supplementing or replacing a regular course 7 : chastity, purity <fought fiercely for her honor and her life — Barton Black> 8 a : a keen sense of ethical conduct : integrity <a man of honor> b : one's word given as a guarantee of performance <on my honor, I will be there> 9 honors plural : social courtesies or civilities extended by a host <asked her to do the honors> 10 a (1) : an ace, king, queen, jack, or ten especially of the trump suit in bridge (2) : the scoring value of honors held in bridge —usually used in plural b : the privilege of playing first from the tee in golf Youre not going to get away with using poison every day. Its dishonorable, and evil. You would be willingly committing an evil act everyday, and there fore not a paladin. I imagine once your god may let it go. After youve dine it eight times this week hes probably going to tell you to get bent, as would any cleric. Yknow why assassins are evil? The lack of moral ambiguity to commit the evil acts they do, often involving poison, as per the class description. Intention doesnt supercede methods. If i intended to stop a shopkeeper from being extorted by killing the bandits and their every friend, or extorting them, did i save the shopkeep or just become the same thing? Id be acting evil, even though my "intention" was to protect someone. Dnd keeps it pretty cut and dry clear. Not really ambiguous |
|
|
|
Post by Fluffy the Mad on Feb 22, 2017 16:03:00 GMT -5
trying to get my stuff together so im in compliance. some questions: the source (dungeons.wikia.com) says that a paladin must "act with honor...not using poison" honor is a term that i find hard to define. the wiki spells out examples. is this universal honor or can you have your own code of honor. what is honor anyway? if i can save a life by giving up my honor, is that an evil act? a personal sacrifice to save others is a wrong act? Wikis are not always a good source, as they're open to anonymous editing. If a paladin violates the code of their deity- or their own where they intersect- they run a high risk of falling. Doing the wrong thing for the right reasons can still lead to a paladin falling. Some paladins can live with that choice, and some cannot. can a paladin get away with using poison if he/she repents in some way afterwards or everyday? Not really. Repenting for one instance of an act is acceptable; everyone makes mistakes. Doing it again and again proves that one has no feelings or want for actual repentance and would lead to a paladin falling. You couldn't murder someone, say 'sorry, let me make up for it,' and then do it again and again. No deity would let that fly. why i stated earlier that intention was more important than methods. does "willingly commits an evil act" mean that i can unwillingly do the same and get away with it? (again, the road to hell" my will was to do good, but instead i did evil, my methods sucked). also (looking at that 'evil thread') what is an evil act? is it written down somewhere or is it up to the dm? im sure some are quite clear, but others are not. is losing some honor an evil act or important enough to make a paladin fall? if i wanted to fight an enemy but if i raised my sword and called him out to fight, i would be obliterated. Would I then be allowed to persue more subversive methods in order to win? you can have your honor but you would be dead/fail/others dead, or you can simply play it smart and find a way to win. would i even have that choice available to me? Good intentions mean nothing when one consistently commits evil acts. Even one or two of any severity are enough to make a paladin fall- they are held to higher standards than any other class. Evil acts are similar to those listed in the other thread, if you have some specific situation ask a DM as it comes up. 'Losing honor' is different to 'violating the paladin's codes.' An internal sense of honor cannot be lost or harmed by outside sources. The code are set in stone for most paladins and their deities. Violating those leads to falling. Paladins cannot always 'play it smart' within the limitations their god's or their personal codes might allow. 'Playing smart' might be assassinating a tyrant in his bed. But if that violates any of the paladin's precepts, they will fall. They may feel that to be worth the price in the end, but the consequences are clear. |
|
|
|
Post by Viridian Knight on Feb 22, 2017 16:52:36 GMT -5
To further expand on what Fluffy the Mad said in regards to the questions asked by marredwolf (I agree with what fluffy said btw). If you do not have proper source material (actual books or PDFs of them) and are unsure about something I'd highly recommend asking a DM, if they cannot answer try another DM, or better yet to a forum search of the DM Q&A forum it is filled with amazingly detailed posts filled with information by the DM team answered over the years and particularly by Munroe which are ever so informative. Giving up ones honour might not be an evil act by itself, it would however be a chaotic act, be that just straight chaotic, or chaotic with good or evil leans based upon the intentions and results of giving such up. Not something a paladin would just do, especially when they are required to remain "lawful" "good" rather then just being "good" Continuing I think of the willingly commits an evil act to mean they have to decide to do such regardless of their reasons and intentions of doing such and damned be the consequences. If they're tricked into doing something without their knowledge though that is different. An example of the former (overly generic and often used) is a paladin hellbent on getting information from someone involved in the kidnapping of children, possibly for some dark ritual or as game for his werewolf brothers to hunt and feast upon during the full moon. Now this fellow wasn't willing to give up any information and betray his comrades and the paladin was running out of time with no leads to follow, if he resorted to something like torture to acquire the information he needed to save the children that would be a decidedly evil act even if his intentions were good and he would instantly fall, some paladins might be alright with that happy that they saved some innocent children and falling was a tiny price to pay for such, but even if they justify their actions to themselves they are no longer a paladin, as paladins do not waver like that, they do not accept committing acts of evil for good intentions an act of evil even for the greater good is still evil and taints the soul. An example of the later, if they release a great and evil demon from it's imprisonment upon the Material Plane, accidentally as they were tricked and truly did not realize the ramifications of their actions until it was too late. Then they might not fall as a paladin but they would likely have other consequences to deal with. Likely consequences could be any number of things, a deep depression regarding what they have done and deep regret for anything caused/harmed by the demons release, a loss of faith in himself, doubting their every actions, a loss of respect and perhaps being held accountable by clergy of their faith or that of law officials of the land. In this case, once is a mistake requiring atonement, if it continually happens though they or their god would likely lose faith in them and question why they should remain a paladin before eventually falling them if they do not get their act together. VK. |
|
|
|
Post by gathera on Feb 22, 2017 16:56:26 GMT -5
[/quote]FR allows for non-evil cleric followers to work in collaboration with evil cleric followers of the same faith.
Will there be conflict? Probably. Is the NonEvil likely threatened and oppressed ... ? Good chance. Numerous other possibilities.[/quote]
*winks* Absolutely so! It has been quite the bit of fun exploring exactly that statement
|
|
|
|
Post by Razgriz on Feb 22, 2017 19:09:06 GMT -5
Paladins:
- Most would rather die than to break their codes and oaths. Actually, most I would say die young, because of the high standards they have to adhere to.
- Those who break their oaths, probably live enough to see themselves becoming as bad if not worse than the evil they were fighting. Some remain evil, some manage to find redemption, die or find a new path in life.
- Those who reach old age are possibly among the "best" and/or the fortunate ones. If none of those options applies, then they could be those that never had to deal with a critical situation, where their lives and paladinhood were at risk and tested.
|
|
|
|
Post by hellscream123 on Feb 22, 2017 19:18:28 GMT -5
On the note of fighting agai5 a greater foe: A paladin and their honour defines that they're not here to win at any cost. They're here to win by doing the right thing reguardless if they will succeed or not.
Illmatyr is litteraly rhe god of matyrdom, a paladin of him would in turn happily sacrifice himself for the -chance- to stop evil. As would most other goodly faiths. Suicidal do or die missions are kinda par for the course of a paladin. They must walk the hardest road of purity in a land beset by evil.
There is no grand list of evil acts because lists can be broken loopholes found and exploited. Read the Book of Vile darkness its the evil sourcebook. If your character does ANYTHING remotely similar to it's suggestions and ideas. The action is evil. The same in reverse works for the book of exalted deeds the good book.
One of the biggest hiccups you're having is trying to play a morally flexible character in a morally black and white setting. As i said in the Evil are Peeps to thread. The forgotten realms has alignment and gods of these matters.it's not perfect and can lead to some strange occurences. But by being here its what we all must abide.
|
|
|
|
Post by marredwolf on Feb 24, 2017 20:00:00 GMT -5
from what i gather at this (very civil) discussion is that my paladin's honor is above (according to the paladin itself) the safety and lives of others. to die an honorable death seems to be the definitive answer. i can abide, but i have a hard time agreeing with it. it's a personal sacrifice, that your honor is lost in order to save someone. its incredibly selfish to do otherwise. and selfish is not what i picture a paladin to be. that being said, thanks for the answers.
one more thing that needs to be clarified...a paladin is supposed to distinguish between a 'right or wrong law' and thus decide whether to uphold it or denounce it. this very simple statement, imo, is making the paladin the law unto himself, a vigilante, the judge that rules above the law of the kingdom/place. it is the paladin's duty to define whether the law is wrong or not. have i misinterpreted this part of the paladin's code?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 20:17:45 GMT -5
Paladins are required by their oaths, strictures, and deities to not commit evil acts or they'd become fallen paladins. If there were, for exaggerated example, a law requiring you to kill any gnome within the land of that law, then a paladin cannot obey that law since it would require them to commit an evil act. So a paladin will simply disregard and disagree with the law. A paladin might also further feel obligated to try and have that law changed through lawful means: Educating the populace, petitioning lords/the ruling class, etc. Now, I say might there, because there might be other evils the Paladin is better equipped to deal with than spending time and resources to changing a law that he might not ever be able to bring to change.
There's an example of this for slavery somewhere on the forums, or maybe even a player handbook, I think.
|
|
|
|
Post by Fluffy the Mad on Feb 24, 2017 20:26:01 GMT -5
from what i gather at this (very civil) discussion is that my paladin's honor is above (according to the paladin itself) the safety and lives of others. to die an honorable death seems to be the definitive answer. i can abide, but i have a hard time agreeing with it. it's a personal sacrifice, that your honor is lost in order to save someone. its incredibly selfish to do otherwise. and selfish is not what i picture a paladin to be. that being said, thanks for the answers. one more thing that needs to be clarified...a paladin is supposed to distinguish between a 'right or wrong law' and thus decide whether to uphold it or denounce it. this very simple statement, imo, is making the paladin the law unto himself, a vigilante, the judge that rules above the law of the kingdom/place. it is the paladin's duty to define whether the law is wrong or not. have i misinterpreted this part of the paladin's code? This is not what was said at all. A paladin's code is that which they live by. If they feel that it is worth the price of breaking it (falling from their state as a paladin) then they may do so and live with the consequences. Their honor- by the more classic definition of internal honor- is only lost when they feel that they have acted contrary to their beliefs and moral standing. If a paladin is forced to break their moral standing for another, they've likely fallen already- best of intentions or not, if that code is broken the paladin will fall. The 'best' path for a paladin is to find a way to achieve their goals without having to break their paladin's or personal codes. 'Right and wrong' are not good terms to use in terms of law and paladins. 'Just' and 'Unjust' would be more accurate. A paladin can certainly be their own law, but they usually have it within their codes to endeavor to uphold just laws where possible- and most areas, Cormyr in particular, highly dislike vigilante activities. It is within a paladin's judgement to decide if they believe a law to be just or unjust. They can also work to change those laws peacefully, as most orders would advocate for within a generally-lawful and just land like Cormyr. A 'right' but 'unjust' law might be as follows: No half-orc shall murder another. While morally right to a paladin, they might feel it unjust as it targets half-orcs in particular. They might work with the kingdom they're in to change that law and have it expanded to something like No being shall murder another. That's kind of a bad example, but hopefully it gets the point across. |
|
|
|
Post by Southpaw on Feb 24, 2017 23:31:19 GMT -5
To Marredwolf:
I just want to toss out there that a paladin's code really shouldn't seem all that restrictive, IF your only goal is to do good and defeat evil. It's actually a pretty good description on how to be most effective in defeating it. What sets a paladin apart from other characters isn't that they tie their hands behind their backs to defeat evil with their code, which isn't the case. It's the fact that they know, factually and accurately, that pure goodness is most effective to defeat evil, and that they have enough faith in this factually accurate knowledge that they don't even consider doing evil to defeat evil, or for any other reason. But as for being restrictive, a paladin's code allows plenty of room to think, be creative, problem solve, buy time, negotiate, persuade, reason, bluff at times in certain ways, offer incentives, shake the proverbial apple tree ... there are so many, many, MANY good ways to approach almost any situation, the idea of paladins being limited in their options is absurd. If you can let go of evil deeds as a potential option and open your mind to every good deed that you can imagine, your paladin could become the most vibrant, alive, and effective character on the server.
|
|
|
|
Post by smacrasmacrasmacra on Feb 25, 2017 0:45:24 GMT -5
...If there were, for exaggerated example, a law requiring you to kill any gnome within the land of that law...  Y'all be doing this on purpose now. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2017 0:55:54 GMT -5
...If there were, for exaggerated example, a law requiring you to kill any gnome within the land of that law... Y'all be doing this on purpose now. I don't gnome what you're talking about. |
|
|
|
Post by marredwolf on Feb 25, 2017 19:48:50 GMT -5
[quote author=" Southpaw" source="/post/289729/thread" timestamp="1487997079"If you can let go of evil deeds as a potential option and open your mind to every good deed that you can imagine...[/quote] a very insightful post, and thanks for the continued politeness of this discussion. i am indeed trying to find potential options, but from what i gather this is not the way to go. perhaps im reading the room wrong. i find that in every instance of the term 'honor' being used throughout history, it relates to the (paladin) person trying to hold onto some form of personal recognition. this is a selfish thing in my opinion. tho widely accepted in most cultures it does not deviate from the idea of a personal moral victory. Not one that puts others ahead of himself. imo. with that being said, and that argument can go on for days, i feel that there is something more important to define a paladin's state of mind. the paladin code, together with the purple dragons own code, adhere to the idea that if the law is wrong it should not be followed. you must try to think on this... who decides the answer to that question? a paladin does not go around asking people what they think and then making a decision. it doesnt even involve praying to your god and asking for insight, tho this would be a wise decision, the decision ends up being left to the paladin himself. it is the very definition of a vigilante. my paladin gets to decide whether this or that law should be enforced or acted against. as far as the rules that ive read this is the case, the paladin decides. this should not be the case for purple dragons. these individuals should function like the US army, do your goddam job. That's a rule on the 'official' book of the purples that should be addressed, enforce the law instead of siding with a paladin's oath. it makes sense for a paladin tho, to distinguish between what -he- thinks is right and wrong. But still, it is the paladin's own decision that a law is enforced or even be actively agaisnt it. good thoughts tho, ill be selling my special 140k poison dagger and getting something more...honorable, i guess. sorry, i value victory over methods, perhaps thats why i cant play a good paladin, but must instead be satisfied with one that fumbles around alot. |
|
|
|
Post by hellscream123 on Feb 25, 2017 20:57:35 GMT -5
Food for thought:
You shouldn't look at hiistorical real life codes and cultural explanations of honour as the comparative for a fantasy game where in a god litteraly imbues you to power, and guides your path with their teachings. My reading of a paladins honor is a tie to their faith; honour thy lord and the principles they dictate. For a paladin is a paragon of their faith.
Victory will forever be hard won for those of good as they indeed cannot use the methods of the other side. Even if they were to use it "justly".
Challenge evil to stand and fight on your terms for when it cannot it must hide or offer its pride before a fall. Vigilante defines ignoring the law and acting outside agaisnt your perspective of the unjust, often yes a paladin will do this. But should strive to act within the confines of a just system.
Cormyr is a Good nation that tries very hard to offer fair hand and justice to all. Yes this is abuse able. But abusing the system back only proves evil and the unjust cannot be beaten. Only fought at their own game. This is the batman flaw; no matter what good he does he is the greatest part of the problem. Gotham never becomes lawful because batman keeps breaking the law to fit his vision a vision that has ultimately always ended in his destruction or vilification, and Bruce Wayne doesnt have an omnipotent God blessing and guiding his road.
You can be flawed but batman is no where near a paladin. He's an insane lawful monk.
A 2 cent thought.
|
|
Fenix
~
Sleepless Golem, aka Kenny
If you read this, send me a love note.
Posts: 2,183
|
Post by Fenix on Feb 26, 2017 1:40:23 GMT -5
[quote author=" Southpaw" source="/post/289729/thread" timestamp="1487997079"If you can let go of evil deeds as a potential option and open your mind to every good deed that you can imagine... a very insightful post, and thanks for the continued politeness of this discussion. i am indeed trying to find potential options, but from what i gather this is not the way to go. perhaps im reading the room wrong. i find that in every instance of the term 'honor' being used throughout history, it relates to the (paladin) person trying to hold onto some form of personal recognition. this is a selfish thing in my opinion. tho widely accepted in most cultures it does not deviate from the idea of a personal moral victory. Not one that puts others ahead of himself. imo. with that being said, and that argument can go on for days, i feel that there is something more important to define a paladin's state of mind. the paladin code, together with the purple dragons own code, adhere to the idea that if the law is wrong it should not be followed. you must try to think on this... who decides the answer to that question? a paladin does not go around asking people what they think and then making a decision. it doesnt even involve praying to your god and asking for insight, tho this would be a wise decision, the decision ends up being left to the paladin himself. it is the very definition of a vigilante. my paladin gets to decide whether this or that law should be enforced or acted against. as far as the rules that ive read this is the case, the paladin decides. this should not be the case for purple dragons. these individuals should function like the US army, do your goddam job. That's a rule on the 'official' book of the purples that should be addressed, enforce the law instead of siding with a paladin's oath. it makes sense for a paladin tho, to distinguish between what -he- thinks is right and wrong. But still, it is the paladin's own decision that a law is enforced or even be actively agaisnt it. good thoughts tho, ill be selling my special 140k poison dagger and getting something more...honorable, i guess. sorry, i value victory over methods, perhaps thats why i cant play a good paladin, but must instead be satisfied with one that fumbles around alot.[/quote] Perhaps invest in a pillow for the fall. |
|
|
|
Post by StabbingNirvana on Feb 26, 2017 8:57:49 GMT -5
Perhaps invest in a pillow for the fall. Of all the people on the server, the player of Fenix the "druid", should not be making this comment. |
|
|
|
Post by marredwolf on Feb 26, 2017 19:40:19 GMT -5
Food for thought: You shouldn't look at hiistorical real life codes and cultural explanations of honour as the comparative for a fantasy game where in a god litteraly imbues you to power, and guides your path with their teachings. i feel it important at this point to inform you that im a christian and that such a statement is exactly what i believe in irl. i dont mean to pick on you, but the other post is a waste of time. if fk face ever makes a valid argument ill respond with pleasure. my points stand without opposition. im the vigilante, i get to decide if the law is right or wrong. and this is also true for purple d knights. this point in particular has not been addressed correctly. am i misreading the oaths and duties of a paladin and pdk? rule number 1 no? i get to decide if the law is right or wrong, right? |
|
|
|
Post by Fluffy the Mad on Feb 26, 2017 20:34:25 GMT -5
i feel it important at this point to inform you that im a christian and that such a statement is exactly what i believe in irl. i dont mean to pick on you, but the other post is a waste of time. if fk face ever makes a valid argument ill respond with pleasure. my points stand without opposition. im the vigilante, i get to decide if the law is right or wrong. and this is also true for purple d knights. this point in particular has not been addressed correctly. am i misreading the oaths and duties of a paladin and pdk? rule number 1 no? i get to decide if the law is right or wrong, right? Several people have replied to you on those points. No, your paladin does not get to judge if a law is right or wrong. That implies that they have some ability to dismiss or accept laws on a broad basis for others. They can certainly decide if they think laws are just or unjust, and attempt to either work within the laws of the land or ignore them- but within a generally lawful land, the paladin's deity may decide that they're not upholding the standards of a paladin and strip them of the granted powers if they ignore, belittle, or break just laws. Likewise, if a paladin follows a clearly unjust law they might be judged by their own deity as well. If you have any particular example we can discuss that. As for Purple Dragon Knights, they are not paladins. They hold oaths to Cormyr and the Crown, not to any particular deity, dogma, or other being or power besides the King and currently the Steel Regent, Alusair Obarskyr.. They are lawfully obligated to uphold the laws of Cormyr, just or unjust. Like a paladin, they can try to influence those laws from within the governmental body, but they cannot simply ignore them without legal repercussions, up to and including execution. |
|
|
|
Post by erratic1 on Feb 26, 2017 21:06:42 GMT -5
Food for thought: You shouldn't look at hiistorical real life codes and cultural explanations of honour as the comparative for a fantasy game where in a god litteraly imbues you to power, and guides your path with their teachings. i feel it important at this point to inform you that im a christian and that such a statement is exactly what i believe in irl. i dont mean to pick on you, but the other post is a waste of time. if fk face ever makes a valid argument ill respond with pleasure. my points stand without opposition. im the vigilante, i get to decide if the law is right or wrong. and this is also true for purple d knights. this point in particular has not been addressed correctly. am i misreading the oaths and duties of a paladin and pdk? rule number 1 no? i get to decide if the law is right or wrong, right? This is pure sophistry and trying to twist and turn how the rules state something must be because you dislike the outcome isn't going to change the outcome save for in your own mind. Multiple people have told you numerous times exactly how a Paladin is, and -has- to be. If you can't accept that then you need to make this character concept another class, simple. Just to be clear, however, this is -not- an attempt to mock your beliefs- that doesn't even come into this at all. |
|
Fenix
~
Sleepless Golem, aka Kenny
If you read this, send me a love note.
Posts: 2,183
|
Post by Fenix on Feb 26, 2017 21:09:02 GMT -5
Food for thought: You shouldn't look at hiistorical real life codes and cultural explanations of honour as the comparative for a fantasy game where in a god litteraly imbues you to power, and guides your path with their teachings. i feel it important at this point to inform you that im a christian and that such a statement is exactly what i believe in irl. i dont mean to pick on you, but the other post is a waste of time. if fk face ever makes a valid argument ill respond with pleasure. my points stand without opposition. im the vigilante, i get to decide if the law is right or wrong. and this is also true for purple d knights. this point in particular has not been addressed correctly. am i misreading the oaths and duties of a paladin and pdk? rule number 1 no? i get to decide if the law is right or wrong, right? A PDK is anything but a paladin. They are the literal law of Cormyr, obligated and sworn to uphold the laws, values, and commands of the Cormyrian crown, regardless of personal belief or obligation. Just or unjust. <3, Fk Face |
|
|
|
Post by smacrasmacrasmacra on Feb 26, 2017 21:14:06 GMT -5
marredwolf , maybe paladin isn't for your character. Have you looked at Champion of Torm Divine Champion? Same Paladin taste--just one calorie! You can hang a good bit of that code out the window and make less restricted choices.
|
|
|
|
Post by hellscream123 on Feb 26, 2017 22:25:19 GMT -5
Food for thought: You shouldn't look at hiistorical real life codes and cultural explanations of honour as the comparative for a fantasy game where in a god litteraly imbues you to power, and guides your path with their teachings. i feel it important at this point to inform you that im a christian and that such a statement is exactly what i believe in irl. And you can. But the scale of whats presented in say the bible. Versus the historical facts of the forgotten realms. The setting i repeat we all must abide to the laws of. God and Satan never came down to earth and had a sword fight in the litteral sense. Torm and Bane have on mutiple occasions; Toril is not earth. Its nations are not ours. They are similar in a few aesthetic aspects but then they veer off widely as according to their histories and the constructs of this world. Your paladin concept is fine in Greyhawk Ebberon. Ravenloft. Sigil. But sadly not Toril and the forgotten realms, here paladins have never; and show no allowence for, the thinking, actions and reasons of your character and still remain a paladin. Every paladin ever written in this setting has been a paragon absolute they have had flaws still, failures and deep reasons behind every action. But have remained true to what everyone here has explained. You are free to continue to do as you are. Nothing wrong with doing so, but the path your character walks has (in the past and in the examples of paladins written up) always lead to the paladins eventual fall from the grace of their divine lord. Because yes, its not the realm he answers to. It's their deity and if their deity wouldn't do the do, neither should have you. |
|
|
|
Post by Southpaw on Feb 27, 2017 0:07:17 GMT -5
Any given person cannot help but decide if they think the law is right or wrong and act accordingly. This is not paladin privilege, but a function of the fact that any person has free will, the law is not magical mind control, and the law is as fallible as the people who make it. Every person has a moral obligation to evaluate whether it is right or wrong to obey a given law, follow that which is right, and defy, forcibly if need be, that which is wrong. A paladin is not at some liberty that others don't have, but more keenly aware of the fact a person doesn't magically lose free will in the face of the law, and that those who follow the law into evil are just as evil as those who break it to do evil.
The problem comes in if a paladin is looking for opportunities to break the law as opposed to reflecting a lawful alignment by doing their level best to work within it. It seems to me that *that* is the point Marredwolf's paladin goes astray. If you want to play a paladin in that position, I might suggest asking a DM to help create a scenario that forces that issue, because in Cormyr's LG/LN environment, forcing it yourself kind of shows.
|
|
|
|
Post by malclave on Feb 27, 2017 2:22:00 GMT -5
Another question regarding "universal" paladins...
Are there any restrictions on missile weapons?
I created a halfling paladin, and he has a bow. So far, all he's used it against has been mindless undead, and as far as "honor" goes the rabbit he's hunting for dinner is more worthy of melee combat than zombies are. However, bows are not common in the archetype and can be seen by some as un-knightly.
As a paladin of Arvoreen he prefers the short sword, but still switches to a mace against skeletons. Are missile weapons just another tool that can be used if the situation calls for it, or something to be avoided?
|
|
|
|
Post by Razgriz on Feb 27, 2017 8:52:45 GMT -5
Another question regarding "universal" paladins... Are there any restrictions on missile weapons? I created a halfling paladin, and he has a bow. So far, all he's used it against has been mindless undead, and as far as "honor" goes the rabbit he's hunting for dinner is more worthy of melee combat than zombies are. However, bows are not common in the archetype and can be seen by some as un-knightly. As a paladin of Arvoreen he prefers the short sword, but still switches to a mace against skeletons. Are missile weapons just another tool that can be used if the situation calls for it, or something to be avoided? Bows are fine. Some paladins prefer throwing axes and darts though. |
|
|
|
Post by PhatDorf on Feb 27, 2017 9:09:25 GMT -5
I prefer just throwing small children and hin, to be honest. Extra flailing damage. The weapon doesn't make the paladin, how you use it usually does. Weapons carry connotations, but they're not really that big of a deal  My paladin uses a greatsword, because that's what fits her backstory and character. If I had a paladin who used to be a lumberjack, I'd use an axe. He would sleep all night, and work all day. |
|
|
|
Post by appleseedy on Feb 27, 2017 11:43:17 GMT -5
i kinda think that you should play your paladin however you think best. I also think you should accept a DM decision to have your paladin fall (if they so wished to do that) i think the RP surrounding a return to grace if your character wished to discover what makes a paladin a paladin would be fun
|
|
|
|
Post by malclave on Feb 27, 2017 14:42:38 GMT -5
I prefer just throwing small children and hin, to be honest. Extra flailing damage. I can't believe you would do that. It's just unconscionable. Everyone knows that small children and hin are too squishy to do any real damage. And what special effect are you going to get from throwing a hin? A chance that the target is affected by Pick Pockets. There's a reason that dwarves, with their horned helmets and axes sticking out everywhere, are the missiles of choice. On a more serious note, though, thanks for the responses. I've been in enough tabletop games to know that Paladin restrictions can vary, and I've seen missile weapons be a no-no in more than one. |
|
|
|
Post by Embra on Feb 27, 2017 15:32:11 GMT -5
I prefer just throwing small children and hin, to be honest. Extra flailing damage. I prefer the flailing gnomes personally, some models can explode on contact. |
|
