Customizing Paladins

[Manshin]

Here is a RP suggestion to make the paladin class more interesting to play by adding a bit of variety between the differant religeons. It would add logical sense and realism to the class by altering the "Code of Conduct" for a few of the god's paladin orders. To me, the one-size-fits-all model in the players handbook doesn't work, and isn't even supported by FR source. I will start with three examples to get the ball rolling:

Helm: Code of Conduct: A paladin of Helm must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authroity, though Helm's law is above all. She never abandone's her post, and acts with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth). Law and order are paramount, as is the oath of the watchman who protects her charge with her life. Never hear evil, nor work with, or benifit from it. It will seek to corrupt you and must be crushed swiftly and wholly. Be ever vigilant and make certain no crime goes unpunished with hard, yet fair justice. Never allow softness or mercy to interfier with the law, for when vigilance fails, choas reigns. Only small children may be shown lieniency for their minor infractions until such time as they are old enough to know better.

Association: A cleric of Helm may never travel with or accept aid from any known agent of evil. However she will not abandone her post or charge if evil is introduced into the group or position, though she may try to drive the evil out or destroy it whenever possible.

Multiclassing: Freely as fighters, clerics, didvine champions, arcane devotees, and Purple Dragon Knights

Ilmater: Code of Conduct(specifically Knights of the Golden Cup): A paladin of Ilmater must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authroity, though Ilmater's law is above all. She must act with compassion, mercy, and honesty (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, nor administering cruel methods of justice), help and heal all who are in need, no matter who they are. Knowing that Ilmater suffers all hurts, always seek to rehibiliate evil first, guiding it toward atonement, and use violence only when all else fails, or when faced with extreme cruelty or absolute evil. Protecting the weak and downtrodden are Paramount, to do so superceeds all other laws. Be prepared to sacrifice your life to defend the weak and end suffering.

Association: A paladin of Ilmater may only associate with or accomany evil in order to protect the innocent and weak from certain death or suffering, or when accompanying a healer of Ilmater in her work. A paladin of ilmater will accept aide from evil for the direct benifit of the poor, sick, or starving, provided there are no binding agreements and donations are given freely.

Multiclass: Freely as clerics, divine champions, divine disciples, and heirophants.

Kelemvor: Code of Conduct: A paladin of Kelemvor must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authroity, though Kelemvor's law is above all. She must act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), and safeguard the sanctity of death. Suffer no undead to exist. Destroying the undead and bringing those who condone or create such abombanations to justice is paramount. Let no person who defiles the sanctity of the grave for any reason, be it necromancy or tomb robbing go unpunished for his crimes.

Association: A paladin of Kelemvor will never knowingly associate with or recieve aide from anyone who creates or condones the exisitance of undead for any reason. She will ally with or accept the help of evil only when she deems it absolutley neccesary to accomplish the destruction of undead, which is the greatest force of evil.

Multiclass: Paladins of Kelemvor cannot multiclass freely. Once a second class is taken, they may never take another paladin level.

Other gods that would need their own are Azuth, Chauntea, Lathander (maybe), Sune, and possibly Yondalla. Tyr and Torm are pretty "by the book." Though one has a lean toward defense, and the other, offense.

Just my thoughts.

[Razgriz]

I got some for Tyr and Torm. The two gods do have some other important points of note.


Torm: Paladins of the True God defend the weak, defeat evil, and uphold the high moral standards required for servants of a god who serves bright and righteous Tyr.

Clerics and paladins of Torm swear themselves to the Penance of Duty, a guide of responsibilities and obligations outlined by the Loyal Fury himself after discovering the rife corruption within the church during the Time of Troubles.

- High moral standards: Must take at least one sacred vow.

- Swear themselves to the Penance of Duty (Debts of Derelictions & Destruction) Really work hard in these aspects.

They may multiclass freely with one other class.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tyr: Paladins of the Just God are front-line warriors in the battle against evil and untruth, and often lead military and adventuring groups to further their cause.

In civilized lands, Tyrrans (inevitably called “tyrants” by their legion detractors) tend to become legal experts, advising rulers, judges, or powerful merchants on the intricacies of the law and arguing cases before magistrates. They view the latter as charity, donating their (sometimes lavish) “speaking fees” to the church.

In some cases, Tyrrans act as agents of vengeance for those who have been wronged and who cannot afford or are no longer around to defend themselves. In such cases, when the law is so broken down as to become meaningless, clerics of Tyr act openly to defy evil or corrupt forces, martyring themselves if such becomes necessary.


- Always Lead groups of good and lawful adventurers of different faiths to further Tyr's cause. (A new paladin of Tyr that comes to Cormyr could try to become a sergeat of the GG vols as a start)

- Be experts in the Cormyrean law (In this case)

- Be agents of vengeance if the law is corrupted or meaningless.

They may multiclass freely as clerics, fighters, and divine champions.

[Fleur de la chevalerie]

Another sect for Ilmater:

The Companions of Noble Heart is a religious sect within the faith of Ilmater. It's mostly made up of paladins, but contains divine champions and fighters who worship Ilmater as well.
The Companions of Noble Heart take it as their prerogative to seek out and destroy the cruel, people who torture and enjoy the suffering of others. The companions are very aggressive in seeking out their chosen adversaries. They especially dislike the Church of Loviatar, and once they have slain all evil-doers within a church of Loviatar, the Companions will destroy the church's foundations right down to the ground.

The Companions of Noble Heart are friendly with their counterpart sect; the Order of the Golden Cup.

Members: Paladins, Divine Champions
Alignment : Lawful-good
Relationships: Allegiances- Order of the Golden Cup
Enemies- The cruel, torturers, and Church of Loviatar

Paladins of this order can multiclass freely as divine champions and fighters.

[Pedantry INC]

I'm just going to nudge lightly, but when 'customizing' paladins, one must keep in mind the paladins code, which includes not willingly associating with evil. Associating with evil willingly and knowingly results in a paladin falling from grace and losing their divine given gifts. The ends do not justify the means if the means are of ill intent. I'm not going to cite source, the book of exalted deeds is a good place to start though if you really want to get into it.

There are a few excellent lore sources for paladins on the forums already, such as:

Glandash's Paladin Thread:
frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=lore&action=display&thread=10295

Ancient Empathy's Paladin Essentials:
frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=lore&action=display&thread=10295

Spirit of a Pheonix's Sacred Vows:
frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=lore&action=display&thread=16276


As well as of course, the basic list of paladin orders:
frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=lore&action=display&thread=1804


Edit: (instead of posting again - this will be my last and only "response" on this thread)

Rather than arguing with anyone that goes off about how the paladin code is restrictive and doesn't make sense, I'll simply state that I'm not here to argue. Source is source, there are those people that believe in adhering to source, for what it is, in respect for setting, and work with that source in game and in character to make things fun. If people want to go outside of that because of whatever reasons they have, so be it, that's between them and the DM, should a DM take notice of any behavior that is in violation of the paladin code. I'm not a DM, so my voice ultimately is merely a footnote in the grand scheme of things.

As a side note you might notice that I've named myself Pedantic willingly, suggesting that I have an interest in adhering to rules and regulations by the written word, and may be nit picky. Please be aware that I don't have an interest in trying to force anyone to follow the rules as written in source, I simply notate that the source is there. I will play how I play regardless, and enjoy rping with everyone even if they aren't as strict to stick to source and setting as I am.

Good luck and have fun, even if you think for some reason that I don't think you should

[Manshin]

Pedantry, you'll note I dwelled heavily on that aspect in my examples above.

The "Can't work with evil" is the whole purpose I felt certain Gods needed a "Paladin Code" for their particular paladins.

Take Knights of the Golden Cup. They are assigned to Ilmateri healers who work in slum sanctuaries, healing bums, theives and all sorts of wretches of society. In order for a KotGC to fullfill his duty to a Healer of Ilmater, he MUST work along side evil. There is no other way he can fullfill his function. Because Ilmateri Sanctuaries are almost always working with theif guilds in order to be able to survive long enough to do their job. Slum Sanctuaries offer free healing to local crime bosses so that they will be left alone. Ilmateri Healers take donations from all sorts of people, even nier-do-well folk trying to give a "nice" image out. The existing Paladin code would force KotGC to abandon their Healer for doing her normal duties. Thefore this class of Paladin requires a code of conduct in order to exist. Because if not, the source concerning the KotGC would be a contradiction.

Simliarly with a Paladin of Helm. Helmites strictly adhere to local law. And because one of the more sacrid duties of a Paladin of Helm is to serve as an honor guard over some precious thing, be it a person or object... what happens when someone else whom is evil is assigned to the task alongside the Helmite? A Paladin of Helm will absolutly never abandone his post, so thats why in my description, they have a caviat that says they don't work with evil, but neither will they abandone their post just because evil is introduced into it. They may seek to remove or destroy the evil, but when impossible, the sacrid duty of the guard comes first.

These are examples of why one size does not fit all Paladins. Every god has different ethics, and so not every god's paladin's would neccessarily have the same code of conduct.

Fleur de la chevalerie's example is probably not an order that requires a differant code of conduct, since there aren't any major differances in the code of conduct between a Companion of the Noble Heart, and a normal source Paladin. They smite evil. Sure they focus on Lovitar and sadists, but thats more something that would be a part of that paladin order's culture. The Code of Conduct need not be any differant.

You could argue my Kelemvor example is similar to Fluer's, save for the focus is on undead moreso than Lovitar. However sadism "is" evil in general. The faith of Kelemvor views the undead as something "beyond" evil. It is their most sacrid tennent to destroy undead above all else. Wheras Ilmater does not consider destroying Lovitar or her minions to be a major concern or even goal. He prefers to see suffering reduced, but takes no extreme measures to kill Lovitar. In other words, the mission isn't divine in the case of the CotNH. Its mortal. A paladin of Kelemvor's mission to destroy undead is very much "divine" in origin.

Obviously you aren't going to have fifty pages devoted to differant paladins and their gods in the source material, but these are things that we as a player base can come up with and decide for the love of an immersive and believable world.

Not only is it more logical and reasonable, its more fun.

[Fleur de la chevalerie]

Feb 11, 2013 20:25:20 GMT -5 Manshin said:

Fleur de la chevalerie's example is probably not an order that requires a differant code of conduct, since there aren't any major differances in the code of conduct between a Companion of the Noble Heart, and a normal source Paladin. They smite evil. Sure they focus on Lovitar and sadists, but thats more something that would be a part of that paladin order's culture. The Code of Conduct need not be any differant.

Obviously you aren't going to have fifty pages devoted to differant paladins and their gods in the source material, but these are things that we as a player base can come up with and decide for the love of an immersive and believable world.

Not only is it more logical and reasonable, its more fun.

Well I wrote that in the interest of completion, and I think it's always important to provide more ideas for character development. I was being pedantic, if you will

[Manshin]

It was great. Exactly what im looking for. I was just saying that the code of conduct isn't neccesarily differant than a nomral Paladins. Id love to see every god's paladins represented with their focuses and ethics. The code of conduct would however only deviate from source on very specialized paladins or for unusual gods.

[Razgriz]

Feb 18, 2013 22:44:29 GMT -5 Savoie Faire said:

There is no one answer to that. A follower of Cyric might assume everyone lies, and a follower of Torm may think very few lie. Again, the mass of peasantry do not conform to one single ideology, and therefore cannot be lumped into a single group.

As a trend, most paladin codes have an honesty clause in it, and some take it more seriously than others. The typical peasant may base his belief on the code of conduct with which he is most familiar.

I just wanted to quote Savoie Faire here....Maybe someone out there will find it useful (myself included)

I just think paladins don't lie, no not even small lies they just do their best and avoid doing it. They could make mistakes but they always work to correct them.

[Fleur de la chevalerie]

Mar 8, 2013 23:32:23 GMT -5 Razgriz said:

Feb 18, 2013 22:44:29 GMT -5 Savoie Faire said:

There is no one answer to that. A follower of Cyric might assume everyone lies, and a follower of Torm may think very few lie. Again, the mass of peasantry do not conform to one single ideology, and therefore cannot be lumped into a single group.

As a trend, most paladin codes have an honesty clause in it, and some take it more seriously than others. The typical peasant may base his belief on the code of conduct with which he is most familiar.

I just wanted to quote Savoie Faire here....Maybe someone out there will find it useful (me included)

I just think paladins don't lie, no not even small lies they just do their best and avoid doing it. They could make mistakes but they always work to correct them.

Spot on mate.

[Manshin]

*raise dead*

I've seen a lot of Paladin bicker of late about how so and so isn't playing their pally right etc.. I figured I'd resurrect this thread I made as a RP suggestion box for all the weird paladins out there and all their crazy foreign gods. Maybe a little perspective to one another. I know that there is a one-size-fits-all Paladin Code, but I like my idea better. If you don't agree, you're a science denier.

[tingly]

Various characters have many reasons to potentially contest the purity of another PC's paladin status. I hope there isn't a lot of crossover between that and people bickering OOC about it.

[Southpaw]

If a given faith takes it upon itself to establish expectations of its members as the legitimate authority over that faith, a paladin would then be expected by the code to do what that legitimate authority expects. So I don't think there's any need to modify the code itself, just to perhaps establish what the legitimate authorities within a given faith would expect, and then apply the code to that expectation.

[Manshin]

Jan 25, 2019 17:44:02 GMT -5 Southpaw said:

If a given faith takes it upon itself to establish expectations of its members as the legitimate authority over that faith, a paladin would then be expected by the code to do what that legitimate authority expects. So I don't think there's any need to modify the code itself, just to perhaps establish what the legitimate authorities within a given faith would expect, and then apply the code to that expectation.

Right except as in the above instances I mentioned for Helm and Ilmater, sometimes the Paladin code would conflict directly with those religious expectations, and that doesn't make a lot of sense. A Paladin of Ilmater (order of the golden cup) is not going to be forbidden from working with/healing evil under the correct, Ilmater sanctioned circumstances, and a Paladin of Helm is not going to abandon his sacred post just because the guard assigned on the other side of the prince's door is evil. But in the overwhelming majority of faiths, I'm sure the standard code is fine and "additional" add-ons the legitimate church authority would heap on are really just for extra flavor.

[Southpaw]

Jan 26, 2019 20:33:34 GMT -5 Manshin said:

What a paladin isn't allowed to do is to make a habitual association with evil people as their close chums and regular associates.  But, doing good deeds to all has a tendency to lead wavering good people to strengthen their resolve, neutral people to make a decision in favor of good, and evil people to repentance and redemption.  If you manage to lead an evil person to redemption, it's a double win for "team good guy," because not only is there suddenly one more good person in the world, but there's also one less evil one, just the same as if you'd killed them.  A gain on both ends.  And that comes often enough, when it does, from doing good towards evil people as a mercy in spite of their evil, and not because you stiff armed them because you didn't approve of them.  The latter tends to put people off from good faiths and embitter them further.  So, if an Ilmateri paladin is making a habit of adventuring with an evil person and healing them every time they're injured from combat, that's too close an association, but the occasional act of healing in the service of Ilmater as an otherwise unexpected mercy is in line with the code.

[hellscream123]

I believe there are source relatwd articles in game books about fearun detailing the differences in paladin orders. But all tend to work onwards from the PHB code. Rather than internally alter it.


Best sources i can site are:

Champions Of Valor. By Wotc and
Faiths and Pantheons. By wotc though is mostly older 3.0 variants of FR

[abby]

I suppose the Knights of the Golden Cup are the best example. They are assigned to protect Sanctuaries of Ilmater in the bad places like Zhentil Keep, Mulmaster and Calimport. Usually in order to survive, the clergy has to be useful to not only the gangs in the slums but evil aligned city rulers as well. That means the clergy, in order to help the starving unwashed masses has to both heal and take material donations from team evil to do their job. The KotGC therefore will have to skirt awfully close to that Paladin’s Code (specifically the bit about associating with evil), even accepting direct aid from evil in order to safeguard the clergy. I doubt any DM would ever make an issue about it, but it does seem to violate the code or come close to that a custom code in their case is probably called for.

[malclave]

In cases like that, I would expect the clergy to be the ones dealing with the Zhents on a regular basis. The paladins would be there to support the clergy's mission. Unless they start socializing with the Zhents (or worse), I don't think the paladin's code is being compromised.

[hellscream123]

A paladin is a holy knight. Nit nessaserily a part of the clergy. But more a sponsored member of the church and dieties servant.as malclave said. A clergyman my serve for the betterment of the faith more freely than a coded knight.

It's like left and right hand of royalty. You don't send your blade for diplomacy or your chief pacifist against an invading mindless monster.

[abby]

Jan 26, 2019 23:17:45 GMT -5 hellscream123 said:

It's like left and right hand of royalty. You don't send your blade for diplomacy or your chief pacifist against an invading mindless monster.

No but if you send your chief diplomat pacifist where there happen to be invading mindless monsters to do diplomacy, then you’d better send your blade with her and he better be able to work with her or you’ll have one less pacifist diplomat.

Some gods may not need their paladins to protect their clergy and so the code of conduct is fine as is. Some, such as the Ilmateri are different and the clergy and paladins work together frequently, even having entire paladin orders dedicated to protecting the pacifist clergy. It’s almosr how the Rashimi send their witches and berserkers out as a team, only it’s probably small groups of healers protected by their paladin guardians. Super cool RP angle.

[hellscream123]

Sure. But it doesn't make the actions of the clergy. The actions of the paladin. To refer back to healing bad guysTM: the paladin may disagree. But through joint faith and deferment of peers (a paladin will bow to the actions and descissions of higher ranked peers) will let it pass. Even before the need for an amendum via their specific order. Which are again. More additive than editing.


Fully agree on the hands work together though.

[Razgriz]

Jan 26, 2019 20:33:34 GMT -5 Manshin said:

Jan 25, 2019 17:44:02 GMT -5 Southpaw said:

If a given faith takes it upon itself to establish expectations of its members as the legitimate authority over that faith, a paladin would then be expected by the code to do what that legitimate authority expects. So I don't think there's any need to modify the code itself, just to perhaps establish what the legitimate authorities within a given faith would expect, and then apply the code to that expectation.

Right except as in the above instances I mentioned for Helm and Ilmater, sometimes the Paladin code would conflict directly with those religious expectations, and that doesn't make a lot of sense. A Paladin of Ilmater (order of the golden cup) is not going to be forbidden from working with/healing evil under the correct, Ilmater sanctioned circumstances, and a Paladin of Helm is not going to abandon his sacred post just because the guard assigned on the other side of the prince's door is evil. But in the overwhelming majority of faiths, I'm sure the standard code is fine and "additional" add-ons the legitimate church authority would heap on are really just for extra flavor.

Jan 26, 2019 20:47:32 GMT -5 Southpaw said:

Jan 26, 2019 20:33:34 GMT -5 Manshin said:

What a paladin isn't allowed to do is to make a habitual association with evil people as their close chums and regular associates.  But, doing good deeds to all has a tendency to lead wavering good people to strengthen their resolve, neutral people to make a decision in favor of good, and evil people to repentance and redemption.  If you manage to lead an evil person to redemption, it's a double win for "team good guy," because not only is there suddenly one more good person in the world, but there's also one less evil one, just the same as if you'd killed them.  A gain on both ends.  And that comes often enough, when it does, from doing good towards evil people as a mercy in spite of their evil, and not because you stiff armed them because you didn't approve of them.  The latter tends to put people off from good faiths and embitter them further.  So, if an Ilmateri paladin is making a habit of adventuring with an evil person and healing them every time they're injured from combat, that's too close an association, but the occasional act of healing in the service of Ilmater as an otherwise unexpected mercy is in line with the code.

There are no specific expectations or "excpetions to the rule" for paladins of a given faith. The code is universal and it is more likely that the deity would understand the limitations the paladins have with it, than to smite them for not being adequate and complete faithful.

I think the paladin code -always- takes precedence over whatever the dogma and expectations of the deity are.

- If the Helmite serves as guard for the evil lord, knowing well the lord is doing evil, then that paladin should stop or his paladinhood could be at risk.

- As for healing evils, the Ilmateri can help them, but openly healing them while adventuring, and if he knows they are doing evil or are evil, puts the paladinhood at risk too.


Edit: In other words, the paladin code never bends to suit the needs of a specific faith that sponsors paladins


And this is a difference with Divine Champions. Divine champions adhere to the code of their deity, without the added restrictions of having the paladin code.

This is mostly why I don't like to play characters with both the paladin and the divine champion class.

[abby]

Wait... who exactly is in charge? The code, or the God? Why would the Paladin Code never bend to the will of the deity to whom the Paladin serves and gets his powers from? Shouldn't it be the Gods who determine the Code of Conduct of THEIR Paladins?

Are you saying there is some larger power-source that all Paladins get their powers from, and that they must obey even over their own God? This is a little confusing to me. It could be Paladin's don't get their powers from the Gods, but rather from some elemental spirit of good?

If you have a God whose highest edict is: "Heal all who suffer, no matter who they are," then how is the Paladin supposed to do that, while also following a code that says: "Never give aid to evil?" at the same time? He's got to break one or the other.... does he break the commandment of his God who GIVES him his paladin powers, or does he break the generic Paladin Code because its in the players handbook?

Does the Paladin of Helm leave his sacred post because his fellow guard is evil and he doesn't have the ability to fire him or smite him, or does he fulfill the law of his God and stay to his post no matter what?

I guess my point is this: If a God's commandment to those who worship him is different than the Paladin's Code, and the Paladin cannot follow both without breaking one or the other, than that particular God's Paladin Code should be different.... even if there's only one written down in the Player's Handbook. You can make the argument that there are no Gods whose commandments contradict the Paladin's Code, though I disagree. The command to heal all who suffer, no matter who they are is a direct violation of the Paladin's Code as far as I can tell, and I have no idea why Ilmater would sponsor Paladins if they couldn't follow his Commandments because of a code that he doesn't agree with. I expect he'd write his own code, as would most other Gods.

That of course, is the point of this thread.

Sure. But it doesn't make the actions of the clergy. The actions of the paladin. To refer back to healing bad guysTM: the paladin may disagree. But through joint faith and deferment of peers (a paladin will bow to the actions and descissions of higher ranked peers) will let it pass. Even before the need for an amendum via their specific order. Which are again. More additive than editing.

Yes but Ilmater's highest edict is to heal all who suffer, no matter who they are. So the Paladin of Ilmater cannot follow both his code, and the command of his God. This direct contradiction is exactly why there is more to this issue than additive editing. This is a direct contradiction between the code and the God; hence the need for a unique Code specific to the God of HIS OWN Paladins.

The only argument I can really see being valid against this is if you make the case, as per 2nd edition, that Paladin's need not serve a specific deity, and are really more of a crusader in services to a general idea of "Goodness" in which case they really aren't getting their powers from any specific God. I don't personally think that idea works in Forgotten Realms though, and I think that tailoring Paladin Codes to their deities makes far more sense from both an RP and source stance, to a fun to RP and flavor stance. Its simply cooler to have unique Paladins tailored to each deity instead of one-size-fits-all. That's a little boring.

[Razgriz]

This is another good thread to read
frc.proboards.com/thread/26872/universal-paladinhood-god-sworn

Jan 28, 2019 2:11:57 GMT -5 abby said:

Wait... who exactly is in charge? The code, or the God? Why would the Paladin Code never bend to the will of the deity to whom the Paladin serves and gets his powers from? Shouldn't it be the Gods who determine the Code of Conduct of THEIR Paladins?

Are you saying there is some larger power-source that all Paladins get their powers from, and that they must obey even over their own God? This is a little confusing to me. It could be Paladin's don't get their powers from the Gods, but rather from some elemental spirit of good?

May 10, 2013 19:38:12 GMT -5 Munroe said:

I would say it would go:

1.) Paladin oaths.
2.) Personal oaths.
3.) Deity's dogma.

A person can follow a diety's dogma, even a lawful good deity's dogma, without being a paladin, but a person cannot be a paladin without following the paladin oaths.

A paladin can fall from paladinhood without breaking their deity's dogma, and without changing faiths, if they break the paladin's Code of Conduct.

I placed personal oaths above deity's dogma as well, because to a paladin any oaths undertaken should be as binding as his paladin oath, since his paladin oath includes restrictions against deception. A paladin shouldn't be taking any personal oaths that are in conflict with his paladin oaths, and should honor those oaths he undertakes.

In Forgotten Realms, a paladin's deity must be LG, LN, or NG, or Sune, who is the CG exception to the alignment restriction rule. Regardless of whether the paladin's deity is LG, LN, or NG, or Sune, the paladin always must be LG. That means that at times the paladinhood itself may clash with the deity's dogma or alignment. In such cases, the paladin's LG alignment and paladin code of conduct must be given preference over the deity's dogma or alignment.

If a deity is sponsoring paladins, such a deity must accept that the paladin's Code of Conduct is going to take precedence over the individual deity's dogma or outlook.

[malclave]

Jan 28, 2019 2:11:57 GMT -5 abby said:

If you have a God whose highest edict is: "Heal all who suffer, no matter who they are," then how is the Paladin supposed to do that, while also following a code that says: "Never give aid to evil?" at the same time? He's got to break one or the other.... does he break the commandment of his God who GIVES him his paladin powers, or does he break the generic Paladin Code because its in the players handbook?

Does the Paladin of Helm leave his sacred post because his fellow guard is evil and he doesn't have the ability to fire him or smite him, or does he fulfill the law of his God and stay to his post no matter what?

My takes:

Healing evil characters would only be a problem if they were actively committing evil or if the Paladin had reason to believe they would go right out and commit evil. Maybe if they kept returning to the Paladin for healing and he realizes they're taking advantage of him to aid their evil. And even then, the Paladin might use more mundane methods of healing (preferably one involving extended bed rest) to limit their opportunities for doing evil.

The Paladin would stay at his post, especially because he would probably not trust the evil guard, who might well be an assassin.  if he's just concerned with the "associating with evil" part of the Code, he might just try to have things rearranged so they don't have duty together in the future. If that's not possible, he might go so far as to quit his job if circumstances permit.

[StabbingNirvana]

The generic paladin for the PHB is set to the Greyhawk setting for 3rd edition I believe.

Now I don't own the books but as far as I know paladins in the Forgotten Realms setting have to be tied to a god. Actually, every character would have to be tied to a god because otherwise they'd be pretty silly characters due to the nature of the setting and how the gods are actual fact and will eat your soul when you die.

That said, there isn't a right answer to the above questions. Paladins have contradicting codes all over the place and have to determine which action best fits the puzzle at the time.

In regards to Abby's questions specifically, my paladin who served the Triad (which includes Ilmater!) wouldn't act medic for a perceived evil character. That means anyone he has information on that according to his own belief (NOT the other character's player sheet) is evil. If he doesn't know them, their is the benefit of doubt or Detect Evil for NPCs. To be fair though, he also wouldn't offer aid of any sort to people who might be good or neutral in alignment if they're always hanging around evils either. He would offer a quick, merficul death though if he saw them flailing in agony on a battleground.

About the paladin of Helm, I'd say he'd serve his duty alongside the evil guard and ensure he doesn't do anything evil in his presence. I

'Course, everyone is going to bicker about how paladins act because everyone interprets and defines things like honor, goodness, lawfulness and pretty much every other keyword associated with paladins differently. Players don't particularly have the pleasure of going through paladin training or having education and dogmas based on centuries worth of tradition banged into their heads by a paladin order through a squiring period.

[tingly]

Presumably, any god that would have a serious problem with a paladin putting their code above their god-related duties has the simple option of not sponsoring paladins. And indeed, most gods don't.

[Southpaw]

I think part of the problem is that people are making the paladin code out to be more restrictive than it actually is. It basically amounts to, "A paladin has to always do what is morally and ethically right, without fail," and the part that is strict is just the two very specific words, "Without fail." The code is no more restrictive than a normal lawful good alignment, they just don't get to take liberties at it.

I think what makes this seem a little trickier is that we're trying to balance discernment between right and wrong actions vs. the alignment equivalent of racism where a person treats people differently according to the alignment on their stat sheet. The first is good, but the second is morally wrong, and not just for paladins, but for anyone. I'd say Velisario is right not to heal adventurers hanging out in the Greatgaunt square where his healing might enable them to go act on an assassination contract they've been sitting on until they heal up for all he knows. But he also shouldn't help an otherwise neutral or good aligned person who's having an off moment and is asking him to heal them so they can run off and do something evil. Also, if a more small time criminal is in prison for lesser crimes and contracts dysentery from the squalid conditions, the disease is a level of suffering that is beyond the legal sentence of time in prison and morally doesn't fit the crime, so it would be evil to neglect a person to suffer the disease if you can cure it. So it's what will come of the help or healing that matters, and not the alignment of the other person.  The code even says it, requiring paladins to help, with the alignment descriptors applied to actions that come from it and not the subject person.

[Razgriz]

Jan 28, 2019 5:14:27 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

The generic paladin for the PHB is set to the Greyhawk setting for 3rd edition I believe.

Now I don't own the books but as far as I know paladins in the Forgotten Realms setting have to be tied to a god. Actually, every character would have to be tied to a god because otherwise they'd be pretty silly characters due to the nature of the setting and how the gods are actual fact and will eat your soul when you die.

That said, there isn't a right answer to the above questions. Paladins have contradicting codes all over the place and have to determine which action best fits the puzzle at the time.

In regards to Abby's questions specifically, my paladin who served the Triad (which includes Ilmater!) wouldn't act medic for a perceived evil character. That means anyone he has information on that according to his own belief (NOT the other character's player sheet) is evil. If he doesn't know them, their is the benefit of doubt or Detect Evil for NPCs. To be fair though, he also wouldn't offer aid of any sort to people who might be good or neutral in alignment if they're always hanging around evils either. He would offer a quick, merficul death though if he saw them flailing in agony on a battleground.

About the paladin of Helm, I'd say he'd serve his duty alongside the evil guard and ensure he doesn't do anything evil in his presence. I

'Course, everyone is going to bicker about how paladins act because everyone interprets and defines things like honor, goodness, lawfulness and pretty much every other keyword associated with paladins differently. Players don't particularly have the pleasure of going through paladin training or having education and dogmas based on centuries worth of tradition banged into their heads by a paladin order through a squiring period.

I did ask once, because it was not that clear for me etiher back then... And this the answer I got.

frc.proboards.com/thread/24483/paladins-forgotten-realms

Jul 29, 2015 0:45:33 GMT -5 Munroe said:

Even Forgotten Realms paladins share and must follow the standard D&D paladin Code of Conduct, and it still trumps the dogmas of individual faiths to which a paladin may belong. Paladins in the Forgotten Realms do have relaxed multi-classing restrictions by assorted orders, but regardless of what other classes they have, they're only paladins if they follow the Code of Conduct. The Paladin Code of Conduct is still universal to all paladins in the Forgotten Realms. If anything a paladin must occasionally deal with the fact that their faith is at odds with the Code, but it is the Code that makes them paladins. Even a paladin of Sune, who is Chaotic Good and yet still has paladins by some great cosmic exception, must be a Lawful Good paladin and follow the paladin's Code of Conduct. When the Code of Conduct puts the paladin at odds with their own faith, a paladin follows the code, but tries to be sympathetic to his god's dogma in doing so. Paladins serve gods who have paladins, which includes LN and NG gods. Not all of those gods are going to agree with strict adherence to the Paladin's Code of Conduct all the time, but their paladins are still expected to follow the code even if it puts them in opposition to widely held positions of their faith.

[StabbingNirvana]

The standard paladin code is basically don't lie, do good, no subterfuge, no hanging out with evils. It's pretty bare bones.

The contradicting parts start with the specifics. Healing goes under "do good" so does not healing every person passing by you count as evil? Is misremembering lying? Is flanking an enemy dishonorable combat? Is banter with an evil person considered association?

More detailed, Torm's Penance of Duty (in particular the Debt of Dereliction) demands the Tormtar to use every available resource to ending the cultists of Cyric and Bane. Would it be particularly dishonorable to blockade all the resources from their stronghold essentially starving them out til they surrender or would the paladins have to request mutually agreed upon combat? Engaging in full on combat will lead to bloodshed of the people you're sworn to battle alongside and protect. Starving the place will eventually cause non combatants to suffer. It's not quite as black and white as it seems when you look at the bigger picture. The paladin code is somehow being violated.

Either way, someone is gonna say the paladins are bloodthirsty savages with no regard for human life and that they broke the paladinly codes. I just heard this type of comment recently in GG. Sometimes you just gotta roll your eyes.

[Deleted]

I too think that the paladin's and other oath driven classes could use a little room to stretch in regards to their god. Obviously alignment needs be respected so no chaotic actions and such for paladins but... I mean otherwise all paladin's are the same. Doesn't matter your god. The gods are basically at that point a coat of paint to throw on your armor. Same with druids. If your god really has no bearing on the way you do things then whats the point exactly?

That paladin over there wields a sword and the other one wields an axe. That one smiles and that one is kind of sad at the moment." But their gods (The thing that is suppose to define them as holy warriors) really are as much part of their rp at that point as clothes. Cause they will always react the same way if staying inside their generic paladin oaths as every other paladin everywhere. I realize very well that rp can help to make two paladins "seem" different but without some kind of bigger difference (dealing with their faith because they are favored warriors of their god)it is making it really all taste exactly the same.

Kind of sounds lame *shrugs*