Interacting with your rivals

[Lady Frost]

First, this is in the Roleplay Idea, Suggestions and Discussion board. So post accordingly and if you get my thread locked I'm going to PM you and not be nice.


Aris posted something in a locked thread that I can't respond to and I wanted to comment on it. Since I need to start a new thread about it I'm going to tailor the thread around other people posting their experiences and preferences, as well. Unfortunately I can't quote Aris' post because his grammar makes me twitch so I'll paraphrase: (actually I just rechecked and miraculously, the first part is okay. Also, it's Tormtar not Tormite.)

If aris saw a group of Tormites in the woods alone he is a banite. I would slaughter them reguardless of lvl. WHY? He is a Banite Banites hate tormites RP reason enough. ...

So, the point of the thread, as said in the title: How do you handle general interaction with your rivals; be it a single hated enemy or a whole opposing organization?

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My response:

I typically try to create and keep high tension. I want other people to feel it.

Loviatar and Ilmater strongly oppose each other but Zoe hasn't even physically attacked one for a very long time. Why? Because being caught killing an Ilmateri is about the worst thing you can do if you want to ever RP with more than 5 people again. Plus it ends the conflict. I'd rather debate back and forth (as publicly as possible) about how her faith is "this" and their faith is "that". Plus people find it interesting how one can openly demean the Ilmateri faith and not sound crazy. It allows the tension to build, it allows the conflict to continue, I can build an adversary, and it gives them a reason to not be afraid as a player of more encounters. I could certainly be within my rights to kill them but I typically reserve killing for when I want a specific conflict to end.

Which leads me to dealing with specific PC's. Simple. I don't try to kill them because I don't want the conflict to end. Would I kill them if necessary (or try, at least)? Sure, no doubt about it. But when both players have a mutual understanding for building tension between the two with the focus not being on killing each other, it's much more enjoyable (at least is it for me). Zoe and Entori are a good example. I don't think they've ever had a physical encounter but there is always tension between the two. I'm positive they'd each kill one another if an appropriate reason occurred but it's much more enjoyable (for me anyways) building tension and walking the swords edge with stern, passive aggressive conversation/warnings.

Zoe and Seamus were another good example. Tension but never PvP. They even found each other on the same end of a bigger conflict and managed some unexpected, agreeable (in my opinion) conversation. And it happened because we weren't focused on ending the conflict, but building on it.

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So, I leave you with a few examples of how I've gone about dealing with opposition. I'd love to hear from others, especially Manshin and Grozer, about how you go about conducting yourselves around your rivals. This isn't an anti-PvP thread. If you deal with rivals through PvP, I'd welcome you to tell us why you do it and why you prefer it.

[soulfien]

This isn't directed at anyone in particular....

In WoW, people attack players of the opposing faction simply for being in that faction. Hoard vs. Alliance and they do it without any regard for levels.

This... isn't.... WoW.

It took a very long time for Wynter to get banned for slaughtering any and all elven PC's for simply being elven. She would at least OOC raise them afterwards and she was very polite in tells, but that can easily ruin someone's day- especially without OOC raises.

Common courtesy is required here. You can't "gank" lowbies whenever you wish for whatever reason. Doing so just gives the offender the reputation of being afraid of a real PvP challenge. Or being a griefer.

If you're strong enough to slay ancient dragons, your goals should be loftier than killing anyone who doesn't like you. Oh, and killing people who don't like you isn't a good way to make people stop disliking you.

If a worshipper of Bane kills Tormites because they're Tormites, then the Banite should fully expect ALL good aligned PC's to gank him for simply being a Banite. And THEN it's nothing but chaos because it will be endless bloodshed until the Banite's player quits in disgust. Why? Because EVERYONE good aligned hates Bane! So it's endless PvP.

Point is- If people aren't killing your evil PC left and right everytime you turn around, it's because they're being nice- Worshipping Bane is illegal in Cormyr (last I checked). Evil people should show lowbies the same courtesy.

[Deleted]

For the sake of keeping this thread open, I think the OP was meant to invite primarily commentary on what people *do* do, not what they don't do or don't want others to do. Positivity is a good thing.

[soulfien]

Very well

If my PC doesn't like someone, they avoid them- when paths do cross, words are exchanged, but little more. If there's a reason for killing them above and beyond not liking them, then we may fight.

I don't PvP often.

[Lady Frost]

Feb 7, 2013 19:05:35 GMT -5 @soulfien said:

This isn't directed at anyone in particular....

In WoW, people attack players of the opposing faction simply for being in that faction. Hoard vs. Alliance and they do it without any regard for levels.

This... isn't.... WoW.

It took a very long time for Wynter to get banned for slaughtering any and all elven PC's for simply being elven. She would at least OOC raise them afterwards and she was very polite in tells, but that can easily ruin someone's day- especially without OOC raises.

Common courtesy is required here. You can't "gank" lowbies whenever you wish for whatever reason. Doing so just gives the offender the reputation of being afraid of a real PvP challenge. Or being a griefer.

If you're strong enough to slay ancient dragons, your goals should be loftier than killing anyone who doesn't like you. Oh, and killing people who don't like you isn't a good way to make people stop disliking you.

If a worshipper of Bane kills Tormites because they're Tormites, then the Banite should fully expect ALL good aligned PC's to gank him for simply being a Banite. And THEN it's nothing but chaos because it will be endless bloodshed until the Banite's player quits in disgust. Why? Because EVERYONE good aligned hates Bane! So it's endless PvP.

Point is- If people aren't killing your evil PC left and right everytime you turn around, it's because they're being nice- Worshipping Bane is illegal in Cormyr (last I checked). Evil people should show lowbies the same courtesy.

And for the sake of clarity... *eyes Soulfien for his poor choice of deities in this sensitive time*

Bane could be replaced with Cyric, Shar, Gargauth, devils, demons, etc... Even legal or non-evil religions. Creating a situation where -everyone- will hate you is just a mess, for everyone.

[Manshin]

When it came to Manshin vs. Ranan, its important to realize we were both pretty worried about each other. Either of us could easily kill the other, depending on who got the drop. So you had some mutual respect.

Both of us took dying "very" seriously, and so that weighed in on making sure we didn't come to blows save for the rarest of circumstances. I am, and I believe grozer is as well, in the camp who will perma-kill their PCs if the reason is there. Therefore we would sabre rattle each other on "neutral" ground, but would avoid one another "most" of the time when bumping into one another was going to cause a show down.

Part of this is, our emnity was tons of fun. We started out as best buds and ended up as bitter enemies. Why end it by scrubing FRC of our nemisis?

I remember when Ranan was in the Isinhold jail about to be executed, Manshin offered to smuggle him in some nightlock poison to give him a quick painless death so that he didn't have to face a humiliating public execution out of respect for a worthy enemy. Later, Ranan returned the favor when he captured Manshin and wouldn't let his minion torture him. Instead he offered Manshin a quick death.

Really good conflicts have background. They have more too it than "you're good and im evil." A complex relationship between PCs is vital for developing this kind of story. That's why playing a subtle evil character who makes friends and lays low often makes for the best sorts of villians in the end... because the issue is never black and white.

That said: We did still fight. Once, Ranan and his son got wasted while out in a dungeon, and his boy sent his animal companion out looking for the closest adventurer in hopes of getting help. It turned out, by freakish chance to be Manshin walking down the road. No one else was around for miles.

Manshin followed the wolf or owl or whatever it was to see who needed help, and there was Ranan laying at death's door with his son. Manshin said: "It must be yule time eh? Someone forgot to put a bow on your head." I got to interogate them for a bit, then when they tried to make a get-away, Manshin diced them into sushi. Poor Ranan was out of spells.

Another time, Manshin sneaked into Redmist and assassinated Veshal, but as I was leaving, his little level 11 mage girl comes up in time to see Veshal dead. As I was emoting about putting a sword to her neck, she casts hold person on Manshin, then goes and gets some pals who proceed to beat Manshin down and tosses him into a cell where Ranan promptly incenerated him and then turned him into a diabolical shadow-monster slave.

So... moral of the story. Create relationships with people "Before" becoming enemies. It will make the whole thing way more fun.

edit: Second only people who take death seriously can hope to get anything out of conflict. There is so little point in killing someone who is just going to respawn and see you in town 5 minutes later. When Mobius crushed that 1st level dwarf, what came of it? He was raised within 1 second of dying, and on his feet talking trash again as if NOTHING happened. Though it did help define Mobius as a character, and that is a positive take, there was certainly no consequences. Its just killing PCs who don't take death seriously does not provide for conflict resolution. So doing it to "teach them a lesson" is pointless.

If someone doesn't like Abby, id much rather they kidnap her and concoct some horrible fate for her, or try to psycologically torture her in some way rather than just popping out, entering ridiculously easy PvP with an utterly helpless PC, then leaving without any role playing. Live or die, if the choose to kidnap her... or lure her into the wilds to kill her, or any other sort of interaction, it would create history and drama between Abby and her aggressor. Now when I see the guy who killed Abby and her noob pals in a dungeon, I have no RP with him at all. I, like the others have to pretend I don't know he killed me, and have nothing to talk about. Nothing came of it. Everyone he killed is alive now as if nothing happened... Indeed we don't even know we died from anything but a normal failed dungeon romp. The ONLY RP that came of it was in that I take death seriously and didn't respawn, thus prompting a group of people to come rescue Abby.

It may have done something for him. Perhaps he was hired, or it was an initiation into the cool club, or maybe he just wanted bragging rights or something, im not sure. Though Id like to have gotten something out of it too. I wish he had animated Abby, or dragged her off to ransom her, or something.

Thats why it helps to have a strong narrative between foes, and have a mutal agreement to make loosing the PvP that comes into a significant event that removes your PC from at least the current narrative, if not from the game for a while.

[arisnorman1]

Your rivals i love them i wish aris had more like he had on old vault.some times you can respect one another without pvp. But there are times when pvp is going to happen.




this little tid bit is for mercs pvp thing

pvp in town should be watched i agree. But when there is a threat in town and you get attacked? Neh PvP is allowed. even on the server it says logging in consents you to PvP. they cant ban pvp but if you wish to openly attack people in towns for insults. get a dm the right thing to do. but if your hand is forced in a town and you are attacked pvp away. I know for one dm or not i will kill anyone in PvP if i am attacked.

[Deleted]

To the OP:

There are a LOT of things I do in conflict with other PC's, most of them things I've learned from what led me to go off on someone for killing my character before, but some from the example of others. Here are some:

If I start the conflict, I usually try to give the other person a problem to solve, rather than trying to defeat them. This implies I mean for the other character to have a success in the encounter.

I let the other person set the pace of escalation towards forceful verbal confrontation, RP intrigue, and PVP violence, if I started the conflict.

I do my best to hold myself to a strict rule of making one emote, and then waiting for the other person's response, when things are tense. It puts me in a mindset to play with them and not against them at the OOC level.

I try to communicate the level of threat posed by my game mechanical actions to the other player, preferably by emote, if not then by tell, before clicking to attack. "Katessa throws one punch and then stops." *pause to read* *KD on target* *stop* On the other hand, on Prisoners of the Mist once, I sent tells to each individual player in a whole party who killed my character's friend in front of her face, saying, "Just a heads-up, Petra means to TPK your party if she finds you." Even then, when my character Petra found that party, with backup, the others managed to RP their way out of a fight, and I let it happen.

If I create the conflict, I try to create a problem for the other person to solve where they might use violence, but it's not necessary for me, and then brace myself. I will insistently work towards my PC's IC goal, but again, the other side sets the pace of escalation, usually. If I escalate, it's after giving more than one "out," trying several times to get them to take the out, with each out given.

If I have power to demonstrate, I'll often find a way to demonstrate that power on a target that isn't the PC I am trying to demonstrate it to. Casting an implosion at a boar in the woods makes the point just as well as imploding half a party of PC's. In fact, fear of that power might be that much stronger when it's pure and not mixed with OOC anger at getting imploded.

If someone attacks my character or another she cares about in PVP and I am there to fight when it happens, depending on the character, I probably do my level best to just kill them.

[Deleted]

Oh, I forgot this one:

Don't be afraid to "lose," at some level, OOC'ly on purpose. Some of the best memories I have of playing here and on PoTM have been times I let someone else get the better of my character, such that it didn't mean death for my PC. I had Erynne get caught for her slave master, Petra on PoTM get jumped for the rescue of an enemy's corpse, a character on PoTM get preyed on by a vampire, Erynne temporarily captured by Ronso, Erynne failing at disguising herself and getting chased by Roxanne out of the Suzail market, a rebel on PoTM get away Scott free with throwing a firebomb at Petra and then RP'ing as being his friend later, knowing OOC who it was, and on it goes. Heh, that rebel actually RP'ed being guilty about having thrown the firebomb at my character when she turned out to be SO good to him later, once he found out what an innocent and righteous person it was that he tried to kill. He never told her it was him, but as the player, we used to talk about how it was tormenting him that he tried to kill this person who was actually actively seeking justice for the same oppressed people he had tried to kill her over. You can get your revenge on people without "winning" against them at all.

[ID10Tango]

*Post deleted by request of OP*

[leaflord]

*deleted as requested* humble apoligizes just thought video was amusing is all

[Rane]

The time between my last pvp session, and this pvp session was HUGE, I dont usually pvp... AND WE CAN SEE WHY!

[Lady Frost]

Feb 7, 2013 21:30:15 GMT -5 ID10Tango said:

**post respectfully deleted**

Feb 7, 2013 22:11:38 GMT -5 leaflord said:

That was funny.KUdos

I think you both missed the point of the thread.

If you'd delete your posts and tell us how you handle your rivalries not how terrible you think everyone else handles them, we'd appreciate it.

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edit: Thank you, ID10Tango

[Extropy]

One of the more important concepts to grasp about PvP is that everyone has different expectations about how it goes down & that this is not wrong. Others players are not going to suddenly change their view of PvP to match yours.

This thread could help players to understand those different expectations if they would engage in it, rather than attempting to reinforce their current expectations & say why others are wrong to disagree with their expectations.

Does that mean that anyone has to change their method of PvP to make others happy? Not necessarily. The server rules clearly define what is acceptable for PvP. However, if players want to engage in PvP & have a positive community reaction to it, understanding what other players expect from PvP can't hurt!

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2013 8:15:46 GMT -5 Extropy said:

However, if players want to engage in PvP & have a positive community reaction to it, understanding what other players expect from PvP can't hurt!

Exactly the point of this and other threads!

[magiuss]

i'll try and sugarcoat this.. Forgotten realms is a realm of Choas death, destruction, mutilation, torture, because half the gods in this world are Evil and expect this of their followers.., playing in role play server Forgotten realms and saying Dont kill me because u can, is like joining a boxing match and telling your opponent Dont hit me.

i dont see anything wrong with a person playing their part as long as they follow the specific rules. and in no place is it said ''as far as i remember'' that a evil god follower whom feels like Torturing killing dismembering a person in here Because THAT is how his player is and he follows his players . and if he dose his crime good enough no one will be the wiser.. Sept for those people who can't see the diffrence between Ooc and IC

we all play this Alternate world to try and make it as real as possible.. atleast thats how it is for me.. My chars always have sword rdy to be drawn or spells up cause i expect to be attacked at any point at any time Cause This would in forgotten realms and this is what happens here.. at any point a person who fel like stabbing u Just to take what few coins u have on u is alright.. thats the world.. any stories every written by ''Wotsc'' this happens..

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2013 9:17:53 GMT -5 magiuss said:

i'll try and sugarcoat this.. Forgotten realms is a realm of Choas death, destruction, mutilation, torture, because half the gods in this world are Evil and expect this of their followers.., playing in role play server Forgotten realms and saying Dont kill me because u can, is like joining a boxing match and telling your opponent Dont hit me.

i dont see anything wrong with a person playing their part as long as they follow the specific rules. and in no place is it said ''as far as i remember'' that a evil god follower whom feels like Torturing killing dismembering a person in here Because THAT is how his player is and he follows his players . and if he dose his crime good enough no one will be the wiser.. Sept for those people who can't see the diffrence between Ooc and IC

we all play this Alternate world to try and make it as real as possible.. atleast thats how it is for me.. My chars always have sword rdy to be drawn or spells up cause i expect to be attacked at any point at any time Cause This would in forgotten realms and this is what happens here.. at any point a person who fel like stabbing u Just to take what few coins u have on u is alright.. thats the world.. any stories every written by ''Wotsc'' this happens..

You are correct, the Forgotten Realms is a dangerous place. However, there are IC dangers, and there are OOC dangers. There is IC evil, and there is OOC evil. Here are some examples of IC evil:

-Murdering someone.
-Stealing from the poor.
-Eating babies.
-Torture.
-Extortion.
-Intimidation for nefarious purposes.


Now here are some OOC "goods" (I'll focus on the positive):

-Giving someone a chance to role play their character.
-Making sure a player is ready to play their character and not hindered by OOC game mechanics.
-Respecting the OOC nature and influence of transition zones, and not letting them affect battle tactics.
-Choosing an RP option which makes the game fun for others, out of the range of what one's character might do.
-Using emotes to orient others to one's character's intentions and actions, so players are aware a PC running towards them is frenzied and looking murderous, and it wasn't a misclick that sent them running.


So compare these two scenes. I'll use my character Erynne as an example. In both scenes, Erynne is stalking a rival she plans to ambush in the Bramblewood Forest.

Scene one:

(toggle target hostile)
(F1) to enter stealth mode and follow target north from Greatgaunt
"Erynne [tell]: *A twig snaps behind you.*" (wait for the other to make a response)
(follow the target north into the area outside the gnoll cave)
"Erynne [tell]: *You catch a flicker of movement out of the corner of your eye.*" (wait for the other to make a response)
(follow target into the gnoll cave)
"Erynne [tell]: *The light in the cave entrance dims and flickers for a moment.*" (wait for other to make a response)
Target: Who's there? *glances around*
(shift/F2 and click on target for a knockdown attempt, continue with battle)


Scene two:

(F1) to enter stealth mode and follow target north from Greatgaunt
(follow target into the gnoll cave)
(toggle target hostile, two seconds later, shift/F2 and click on target for a knockdown)


Which of the two scenes would you rather be playing the target in? How would you be feeling if Erynne killed your character in one scene vs. the other? How much fear and creepiness would you be feeling in one scene vs. the other?

If it were me, I would far rather play the target in the first scene. I would at least feel the other person played fair in the first scene if my character died, and feel at least partially jumped by the other player, OOC'ly, in the second scene. I would feel absolutely NO fear in the second scene, because I have no idea anything is coming and no anticipation before the attack. If I did feel fear from scene two, it would be of the other player, not their character. In the first scene, I would feel the tension building up as this unseen assailant who I know OOC'ly is there, but can't metagame who it is, approaches ... somewhere ... and I don't know exactly where they are. Even if I won the fight in the second scene, I'd feel the player had acted like a jerk. And in the first scene, I'd have a chance to decide just how much risk I'm comfortable taking, knowing OOC'ly who is stalking my character out of a range of possible responses to what is going on, all legal within rules about metagaming.

So ... to sum up, I would find the first scene to be simultaneously more fun to play through, more fair to play in, and also more scary. I say this from experience at having been the target in such scenes. Heck, I've been scared when someone made the emotes in tells without ever getting around to attack!

[magiuss]

of course i would pick number 1. cause i like it that way. im just saying that it is within their right [as long as they follow the rules] to do it the other way aswell.

I my self before i enter a pvp or long term pvp with someone write's them a tell to lay out some ground rules that we both can agree on... but i wouldn't be offendet by anyone playing the other way.. for one i always offer that any fight that occur will be made a occ raise dead given they agree that that char is not played the next couple of days.. but this is not stated is a nessecery thing to do. and untill the Dm's decide to change the rules of engagement on these fights both ways are accepted.

it all comes down to the person being killed if he/she can seperate his/her ooc feeling with the fact that the act was legal. cause that's the main resons for these posts happning on the Forums

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2013 10:13:51 GMT -5 magiuss said:

of course i would pick number 1. cause i like it that way. im just saying that it is within their right [as long as they follow the rules] to do it the other way aswell.

I my self before i enter a pvp or long term pvp with someone write's them a tell to lay out some ground rules that we both can agree on... but i wouldn't be offendet by anyone playing the other way.. for one i always offer that any fight that occur will be made a occ raise dead given they agree that that char is not played the next couple of days.. but this is not stated is a nessecery thing to do. and untill the Dm's decide to change the rules of engagement on these fights both ways are accepted.

it all comes down to the person being killed if he/she can seperate his/her ooc feeling with the fact that the act was legal. cause that's the main resons for these posts happning on the Forums

Magius, what you're saying is all true. And by the rules, you are right. But this thread isn't about what the rules call for, or the fact that people have some level of obligation to be okay with the fact people do things they don't always like as long as it's within the rules. This thread is for those who have an interest in going above and beyond what the rules call for and aim for making an enjoyable scene for the other, instead of relying on the rules to protect them from interpersonal fallout and risking relational damage with other players.

[magiuss]

fair enough point taken. hope u can get through with your message then

i was simply pointing out to the other who rage over the other people whom dont do it like you and me.

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2013 10:24:54 GMT -5 magiuss said:

fair enough point taken. hope u can get through with your message then

i was simply pointing out to the other who rage over the other people whom dont do it like you and me.

I do understand. The only reason I kinda press the point is to keep the thread on topic, because I think the specific thrust of this thread is a very valuable discussion to be had, and isn't talked about in a focused way often enough. People say, "Consider the other person," and, "Role play the encounter," but the question could be asked, "What does that mean, exactly?" Well, here it is.

[Grozer]

Yeah everything Manshin said is pretty right on.

So I will apologize up front as I know my post is going to be long but having played a villian on FRC for many, many years I have developed thoughts around doing so. When I first came to FRC I played a CG elven ranger... yes I know it's difficult to believe but I did. What can I say, I was ignorant.

At that time there was big time villain named Raven Rift and I had been on the other end of the Cyric's mass slaughter a few times, all because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I also noticed that while quite a few people liked having such an awesome, super powerful villian, (and Raven was super powerful, his player knew how to build and this was back in the day when very few item properties were banned or scaled back, so you can imagine the type of gear he might have had)... anyway as I was saying, even though there were non-evil PC players that supported his methods, there were equally if not more that were just plain upset at some of his tactics/RP/methods which almost always resulted in PCs dying and more importantly resulted in players being pissed off, upset or just plain angry. Sound familar?

Personally I decided at that point to create a different kind of villain. First he was going to be a Banite - there were none on the server at the time. Secondly I purposely developed him with a character flaw that would allow the possibility, albeit ever so slight and nearly impossible, that he could be saved or brought back into the light. This would allow other PCs to choose how they interacted with him and also provide a deeply buried compassion which I would use to avoid certain "fights" if necessary. Third, I started out knowing he would never truly win. I think this is soooo very important.

I also decided he would do things in a more discrete manner and keep things hidden. Of course some of that was because he was the ONLY Banite on the server, so having someone watch his back was out of the question! LOL Ultimately I wanted to create a villain that other players would LOVE to hate. Important to keep in mind here YOU WILL NEVER MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY no matter what you do but I think for the most part I achieved what I set out to do. And for those reasons its why I still this day enjoy playing Ranan even though honestly there was days that it was so uttering not-fun and frustrating to play him.

More to the point here I think whats important is the goal or aim of developing rival relationship(s). As Manshin said death from PvP is so finite. It suspends immersion to die/respawn over and over again so it really didn't add to the fun factor for me. Personally I am horrible at PC builds, I couldn't tell you the stats of Ranan off the top of my head or what his base attacks is, blah blah blah and I admit I am borderline at best in PvP. Anything I have learned about building and "having the right gear" is from of the great players here which I have had to the opportunity to play alongside. So my goal was to do other things to stir up conflict and avoid PvP if possible. Of course as Ranan gained a following I had them do the dirty work.

I started Ranan and made him fit in and in fact that is how Manshin and Ranan became best of friends in character. It also helped that I thought the player of Manshin was a pretty ok guy. I like to think we became pretty good friends and in fact I was in Seattle once for work. We hung out and had beers. He is alright even if he let me pay.

Manshin is the one that outted Ranan after 15 levels of hiding heh. Granted back then half of FRC didnt even exist, no Hullack, at least half the dungeon crawls that exist today werent available. So to get to level 15 literally took a super long time I think close to 2 years RL? Whatever the point is Ranan's secrets were still secrets except to a very few that had learned the truth along the way and that was a long time for Manshin and Ranan to develop and friends before the story changed.

Manshin and Ranan developed into a great rivalry because they were friends first. Heh not patting our back... ok maybe I am... but it was a really good story and allowed for significant character development. Ranan had other rivals as well none as well developed as Manshin but most built on the same ideas about it being more than PvP. Sharita was one, classic LG paladin of Mystra vs a Banite Priest. I really enjoyed "running" into her in public where Ranan could taunt her lack of ability to smite Ranan unless she wanted to break the law. Some great exchanges. Kelric to a certain extent. Hehe the stoic knight who had to watch Ranan ogle and plant veiled threats against his love and future wife.

All the rivalry that Ranan has had which made the game so much fun was focused on a great "chess match" not on PvP. Mind you there was plenty of conflict, Manshin was superb about trying to goad and push Ranan's buttons so he might lash out publicly!

What do I mean about the chess match, well we always had IC plots going on as well as a few major ones by DMs... and we were constantly trying to upend each other. Manshin was always trying to see what Ranan was up to and stop him or foil his plans. Manshin wasn't the brightest at it LOL but then he got help from Hoot... damnit!

Likewise Ranan has his loyalists constantly spying watching the factions of good looking for opportunity to crush their hopes by stealing something they wanted, etc.

It was common for Ranan to be insulted in public, especially by Manshin and most of the time it did not come to blows. Look this is by no means a judgement of anyone's style of play, it is merely a preference. Most times the exchange would happen and people nearby would be on edge as if a war was going to explode but we both knew that wasnt the end game. We knew at the right point to back away from the edge and "leave it for another day" which allowed some great tension to build.

One thing I do see missing presently is when these public insults occur, is I think people doing the insulting and probably being a little to bold in their efforts. Manshin, Sharita, Kelric, many of Ranan's rivals probably knew OOC they could best him if necessary but in the RP you could see the sense of cautiousness. They wouldn't dare brazenly poke the "bear" over and over, pushing into a corner and then act surprised when the claws and teeth came out. Ranan as well. I knew OOCly many times I had the advantage but the RP was careful and cautious, Ranan respected his rivals, while he didn't fear the law or his enemies (Banite's only fear one thing ), there is definitely something to be said for taking calculated actions only when it was guaranteed for success. This allowed me OOCly to justify holding back often and yet Ranan has many, many PvP battles.

It also helped that Manshin's player and I agreed with an OOC concept if we ever did come to fight, essentially we took some time out of the game, played an alt and gave the victor some room to maneuver. If this battle was the result of some plot DM or player initiated, the loser would take some time away from playing their main, 5-7 days?, but also more importantly they would stop their efforts to subvert the winner's current plans. So there were real consequences. Personally I don't see dying as real consequences since many times someone will resurrect you or you can respawn.

So I think I have said everything that was a on my mind... apologies again for the ramble and I hope it helps the conversation.

One closing note, I have played on FRC since 2004 and these type of events, discussions, disagreements are not new. So honestly we just need to have a perspective and put yourself in the other guys shoes before suggesting there is a better way to do things.

[Lady Frost]

Feb 8, 2013 10:00:17 GMT -5 @sharauvyn said:

...
And in the first scene, I'd have a chance to decide just how much risk I'm comfortable taking, knowing OOC'ly who is stalking my character out of a range of possible responses to what is going on, all legal within rules about metagaming.
...

Would you explain this a bit more? I think I'm confused what you mean because I would read this as metagaming.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

I have one PvP rule - Don't PvP unless all parties involved are aware and fine with it!

Exceptions being the most extreme of circumstances, the like of which I can remember occurring twice back when James ans Garum were around level 6. We were being hunted down by "The Bumblebee Cult." after some surly comments made in the common room of The Griffon... This was pre-invasion of Isinhold by the dracolich.

Yeah, I'm a sissy. Deal with it! I don't like to throw my weight around, and I don't like to crap on another player's day.

BTW - ID10Tango's video was totally hilarious and not off topic one bit. I see good and evil prancing around, posturing like fools but never actually coming to blows. Just like the video... but that's just me.

[Lady Frost]

Thanks Manshin, Grozer.

Now, as Magiuss has said, and I agree with, nobody has to change the way they go about their business. If you like how you play and it isn't along the lines of what people are talking about, nobody is saying change; that wasn't the goal of the thread or the right of those who posted. However, I firmly believe that because players are so willing to go to "combat PvP" (as opposed to RP PvP) ((And again, I'm not saying you are wrong)) it's kept a lot of large scale plots from unfolding. DM's don't want a server conflict where everyone is just going to combat PvP each other every day. The forums would be a nightmare. If everyone took what was said here to heart and focused on how to create a real, live tension with their enemy/adversary without killing each other ever chance we could (though it will happen at times, it just has to) ((and this is besides and bigger than the recent events)) I think we'd start to see more DM assistance with the large scale, faction vs faction plots that have greatly died off in the last 4 years. And to be honest, (and I know Entori is right behind me) -that- is exciting to think about.

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2013 16:22:19 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

Feb 8, 2013 10:00:17 GMT -5 @sharauvyn said:

...
And in the first scene, I'd have a chance to decide just how much risk I'm comfortable taking, knowing OOC'ly who is stalking my character out of a range of possible responses to what is going on, all legal within rules about metagaming.
...

Would you explain this a bit more? I think I'm confused what you mean because I would read this as metagaming.

Okay. It's about sharing some information with the other player so they can participate in helping to shape the scene. If someone has no IC information to go on, they can only passively receive the ambush until it starts. But if I use tells to give something to respond to, and the player knows we're toggled hostile, they can take IC actions meant to react to potential threat. If you get the IC idea someone is following you, you can react like you would if you know someone is following you. What would you do? You might pick up your pace. Close a door behind you and lurk at it, waiting to jump them. Leave a trap for them to walk over and alert you to where they are. Take a true seeing potion. If you don't IC'ly know you are being tailed, you would be metagaming. But after the tell-emotes I described, you HAVE the IC information to start taking defensive measures. A braver player can just go on and hope for the best. A paranoid player can down 3000 lions worth of potions every time they hear a twig snap in the woods. But if you share a little IC information, the other player can participate in the scene before they are actually attacked, at some level, and they don't feel as forced by metagaming rules to just sit there and get whacked in a round or two, knowing the end of the scene from the beginning.

I will also say this. As the player who might be metagamed against (not as the one who might do it), if I'm attacking, then my personal goal is not to have the most airtight, totally perfectly IC scene with zero metagaming, at all, that I can. It's to have a player on the other side who is looking forward to the next time we play conflict, and saying, "Yes! Awesome!" the next time I toggle them hostile, instead of feeling like, "Oh no, here we go again. Gotta put up with what they do, because I don't want to metagame." If the other person metagames against me, and their character escapes, but they had that adrenaline rush and are excited about the next time I try to attack them, then the scene was a success, to me. And the chances are, they might relax a little more next time, take a little more chance, and realize that maybe 1500 lions worth of potions might be a little more in character than 3000 in response to a twig snapping, in the middle of the woods of all places.

Does that make any more sense?

[Lady Frost]

I understand. I mistook:

...knowing OOC'ly who is stalking my character...

as "seeing who is typing the message and deciding if you were capable of fighting them."

[leaflord]

I hope I can do this so that former poster does not take this as aimed at them in bad way not meant to be whatsoever...that be said I shall continue

If your said character is nervous and drinking 3000 coin potions cause there paranoid there is a reason why. He said something to a necromancer, called out a banite ,basically told someone see you around in bad way, ect.. . Would you not being killed in woods somewhere make you paranoid as character and maybe think he walking in the woods and something happened well that never happen to me again, next time i will be ready!

As for pvp one thing people do not get is what side you come from. What hell does that mean? Simple there is a victim and there is the attacker. When you get killed in simple swift blow every victim is like what the hell had no chance, this exact same thing the attacker is thinking right before the attack...is the spell going to work, have they seen me, are there friends around, is that witness there .hells this went totally sideways. There always be at times mess of people in wrong place wrong time and levels do not matter why? cause first off metagaming second nobody on Frc as of now knows. Are times goes perfect sure finger death , wail , timestop , hand spell , knockdown and strikes, sneak attack all work but not always. Get killed pick yourself up dust yourself off and learn from the experience. Hey maybe as mage I should have been more buffed before i walked outside the inn? Have been on both ends yes, was it enjoyable on both ends yes and no both have different feelings. Was it exciting the killer or the victim answer is yes. Why? My character was that important to someone to go to the trouble not just killing me but there alot time to track , hunt and find the right timing to get someone. As the killer I acknowledge that character good or bad means something to me and my character. If really boths you and get tells and the what was that for and why and everything else, take a moment collect yourself and think wow i mean something in the community this was outta the norm and thanks glad you noticed me again good or bad.

LeafLord

[leaflord]

Love dm extropy's post,ranan and manshin it is the basic ingredients for what i call a server pie. Put best stuff in get the best stuff out.

I love to see a poll based on......

1. i like to log in go back to the same dungeon for 10th time

2. I like to log in stand in town and look tough and mean and log out

3. I just played two months straight went from level 13 to level 15 nobody noticed.

4. I logged in some epic villian just brought down this crazy paladin from his horse and then started to duel and villian stunned him with light and well i could not just stand there ran at the guy he fodded in 2 seconds but paladin spell wore off him and he sent the villian packing in shame. He raised me and said i did good and that ever needed anything he owed me big time. hells i can not wait to log on tomorrow I am so part of this server!!! Only level 4 yeah.

the poll really that hard? anyone says this cant happen is crazy happens all the time just have to let it come and roll with it.

Leaflord

[Munroe]

Feb 7, 2013 19:05:35 GMT -5 @soulfien said:

It took a very long time for Wynter to get banned for slaughtering any and all elven PC's for simply being elven. She would at least OOC raise them afterwards and she was very polite in tells, but that can easily ruin someone's day- especially without OOC raises.

To the best of my knowledge, Wynter is not banned. The character hasn't been around on the new vault, but the player may simply be waiting for the return of the old vault before playing again, or may have moved on from NWN.

In general, unless a player brings up their ban publicly, the DM staff does not announce who has been banned publicly. Just because someone hasn't been around doesn't mean they're banned.

I can say though that so far as I know (and I did check the DM forums before replying), Wynter is not banned.

I've heard you mention someone being banned before that wasn't banned. Please don't make assumptions.

That having all been said, it is public knowledge that Raven Rift is banned from FRC as he elected to bring up his ban on the forums after he was banned.