Time to get out of Greatgaunt!

[TermaForever]

So...this is a dead horse. But unlike most dead horses, I think this one has a legitimate chance of coming back to life and racing again if we hit it enough.

Certain recent events (most of which I was not actually part of) have led me to feel that its time to try once again to get the high levels characters out of Greatgaunt. The place really needs to be an incubator for new characters and players, not an arena for epics to show off as it so often becomes.

Not first off, this is not a charge against said characters. As others have aid, EVERYONE is in Greatgaunt. Where else are you going to go for RP and to find adventure? Well that's kind of the crux of the self-perpetuating circle of pain, isn't it? Its like the old joke "No one goes to that restaurant anymore: its too crowded"

So basically I'd like to open this thread as both a plea to players to get out of town and a suggestion/discussion thread to find ways to make it happen.

Now please, I have no authority here, but lets keep this civil. I've seen the way threads on here can decay and I don't want that to happen here. If you have nothing constructive to say, don't say it.

Now, to start, some ideas I have.

Now, there are already a lot of nice areas out there that are far nicer than GG. So we know that's not going to help. I think it boils down to (as I said) everyone is there so everyone goes there.

Now we could be extreme and implement a scripted rule to keep players over GG volunteer level out. I don't want to see more rules but if that's what it takes...

Less draconian is a two fold approach I thought of.

1) DMs need to stop giving event attention to GG, outside the Volunteers and maybe the occasional goat with a cloak fetish. People go to GG because they figure that's where stuff will happen and DMs go there because that's where players are. Someone has to flinch first and there are far fewer DMs than players to have to convince. . To be fair I think some effort toward this has been made already. Lets keep it up.

2) Players congregate in the same place because they need their crews to adventure and RP and there aren't any good ways to do that shy of OOC tells which are frowned on/ outright forbidden. I would propose then an IC way of long distance communication, since I'm pretty sure FR has magical means of going that. Obviously I'm not suggesting giving PC wizards free reign to use tells - it was brought up once and shot down for good reason. However, I could see NPC 'vendors' who would sell this service - maybe 100 gold for a message or something, that would be sent to a particular individual somehow. This individual wouldn't be able to respond of course, unless they are next to one of these vendors themselves, but it would allow an IC way of notifying a characters that "Hey. I'm bored. Lets go kill a Lich" without having to all hang out in the same spot all the time.

Anyway those are my starting thoughts. FRC is rebuilding now, so lets take advantage of the new beginning and make a change for the better. Lets get out of Greatgaunt!

[Razgriz]

Meh, I just visit Greatgaunt with my high level character because it is the best place to sell things like adamantine armor or +1 stat gear to lowbies since they have few gold to spend with caravans.

Also this town is the best for recruiting new members for guilds and I have seen DMs mentioning that any guild should pay attention to GG vols musters.

But now that I think of it, all of my pvps have been in Greatgaunt and is somewhat silly. At this point the guards and the Red Ravens would banish my character because he always ends fighting for his life there.

[soulfien]

Feb 5, 2013 20:07:31 GMT -5 Razgriz said:

Meh, I just visit Greatgaunt with my high level character because it is the best place to sell things like adamantine armor or +1 stat gear to lowbies since they have few gold to spend with caravans.

This.... so much this.... +1 gear should be sold in Greatgaunt.

Unfortunately, I see so many people selling gear for 20,000 or more. In Greatgaunt... where newbies roll..... Think the average lvl 5 PC has enough to buy your rings and armour that you're selling for 18,000 each?

Suzail needs an open market room- or more correctly, players need to find a spot and establish it as such

Dungeons:
Dungeons around Greatgaunt have been given a boost in difficulty level. A lvl 12 can easily find challenges around that town- hell, a party of level 12's could find challenges there. Goblin fort, gnoll cave, orc cave, labyrinth, etc... and even the Darkwood forest and GG is the main hub for the Tun and the Underdark.

There is just as much to do for mid-high levels around the starting town as there is for low levels.

It's simply the way it's been made... or changed. A level 12 could easily solo the old goblin fort (with some very well thought out tactics) and now, it takes a party of mid levels to fully complete it- well, a party of lvl 8's could do it with enough raise dead scrolls and healing kits.

The orc cave proved way too difficult for 2 lvl 8's to make it through after the change- we merely cleared the first room before seeing that it went even further- we dared not try it as we'd already run too low on supplies.

Point is, people are going to hang around there because they buy their mid level gear at the Enclave, fight their battles in the immediate surroundings, and socialize with all of the other people there doing the same thing in the town that gets the most DM events.

Why leave? Saying "Leave Greatgaunt" doesn't work when there's every incentive to stay.

[TermaForever]

Maybe the incentive needs to be removed? I know that was the thought once.

Some of what the two of you pointed out (about recruiting and DM events) goes back to the whole self-perpetuating issue thing. Or maybe its not an issue and I'm just a cranky old man now

[Manshin]

It would seem more realistic if larger cities offered better merchants for both buying and selling. It requires a master smith to make full plate and most other sorts of plate armor. It would seem realistic to relocate all the good heavy armors to Suzail and other cities, as well as magical things.

The further from Great Gaunt, the better the gear?

Anyway, I dunno. I don't mind having a hub to find people at, I guess it doesn't particularly bother me that it's Great Gaunt. It would be nice if I could hang out in Suzail and actually see people now and then... but... maybe the next time there is a large group hanging out in Great Gaunt, everyone should say:

"Hey guys... lets all go stand around in Suzail instead of here."

Then they could start a merry march to Suzail and within a week or two, completely change the place where everyone goes to Suzail.

If it was an ideal place to sell stuff... im sure that would help.

[TermaForever]

I was actually just getting ready to say that maybe the real solution is to get the lowbies out of Greatgaunt and make somewhere like Suzail the start area.

[minion]

Feb 5, 2013 20:54:57 GMT -5 TermaForever said:

I was actually just getting ready to say that maybe the real solution is to get the lowbies out of Greatgaunt and make somewhere like Suzail the start area.

that very thing was seriously considered, if i remember correctly, but was deemed impractical (and that gets no argument from me, i know it would be hundreds and hundreds of hours to accomplish, at least, from people already working on improving the module in other ways).

this issue has gone 'round and 'round in exactly the same ways i'm seeing on this thread in at least a few other threads in the last 5 years, if not more threads and a longer period of time. there is no one fix, no simple fix, and it won't be done by the DMs alone, the builders alone, or probably even by the players alone (though a genuine and concerted effort by players usually helps for a while, until it inevitably peters out).

i'm agreed with Soulf that the recent changes to spawns and dungeons around GG haven't helped. lowbies have a harder time breaking out of the lvl-5-capped dungeons to explore the region around GG and mid-level PCs have less reason to get out to other regions of the module because there are still challenges within a stone's throw of GG. overall result: the only PCs that feel a genuine need to move on are higher level PCs, who still feel a pull to GG because that's where people are and therefore where stuff happens.

again, no one thing will fix this, and any build changes made wouldn't magically make the problem disappear entirely, but i agree that this is something that can be changed/fixed in a meaningful and durable fashion, so it's the easiest thing to address. this is where i would make my only useful recommendation: make areas near GG for low-level PCs again.

in support of my assertion that it isn't: take your party of a few 1st-2nd level PCs in any direction out of GG and you will find brutally lethal spawns within 2 screens. hell, in one direction, your 1st/2nd lvl PC can't leave the road on the 1st screen outside of town w/o severe risk and in another direction you can't even walk on the road 20 feet from the transition leading to town w/o risking death. lowbies are essentially trapped unless they band together in large groups (frequently not possible) or simply stick to the lowbie-only dungeons until they can muscle their way out of town (tacitly fostering repeating the same few dungeons a few times each).

[Thrym]

Feb 5, 2013 20:54:57 GMT -5 TermaForever said:

I was actually just getting ready to say that maybe the real solution is to get the lowbies out of Greatgaunt and make somewhere like Suzail the start area.

Starting in Suzail? I pray that day will never come, even though I know there's been talk of it. Seriously. Just... imagine all the ridiculousness and sheer chaos going on in Greatgaunt happening in the capital of Cormyr. You couldn't even ICly argue against people telling you the crown is a bunch of incompetent hacks anymore if the Capital turned into Greatgaunt.

Well, you could. But you'd look like you were crazy and in denial or something.

[soulfien]

My many-step solution to clearing GG:

1. Get mid level stuff away from the town- this includes the Enclave... move the Enclave itself away from GG if need be

2. Nerf the dungeons around GG back to what they were. We don't need dungeons so difficult that mid level parties are grinding them for items, gold, and xp.

3. Move DM events away from GG. If no one shows, then have an event for picking up the pieces after you destroyed the city. Have commoners ask the heroes "Where were you!?! We needed you!"

4. Create high level areas that ONLY epic PC's can get to and make the areas far removed from GG- like on another plane- There are 4 elemental planes that have yet to be represented on FRC. I have tons of ideas on how to do this. Add in shops and items that are awesome but not game changing. Each one will have a city or gathering place of merchants and healing supplies as well as an inn. No need to go back to GG.

There's no end content in this game. This is what you need to do to entice people to move away from the starting area.

Just saying.

Keeping it how it is now will only continue the issue.

[Pedantry INC]

I sort of have to disagree about the dungeon challenge around GG drawing level 10+ characters. With a duo of level 10 characters we stopped going to those dungeons such as gnolls, orcs, goblin fort because we thought that the challenge was too small vrs the reward that is quite high and moved on to more difficult areas - VR Crypts, and even some of the areas in and around suzail, eveningstar, etc.

What brings me to greatgaunt, like merc, is trying to bring gear to low levels. However, I arrive, watch prominently epics(edit: higher levels, there aren't -that- many epics, i suppose, so that's bit of an exaggeration on my part) chat and such for a bit, then leave typically without selling anything. Now and then I go and wait it out in the merchant building, which i think is a good way to keep my higher levelness out of the way but also available to do what I want to do, provide a service for lower levels. Maybe myself and more player merchants can use the building consistently? I dunno of that will help.

Passing through to look for someone isn't so bad, but maybe it's lingering and numbers building that becomes the issue. I don't think it's that huge of a deal to send a fellow adventurer a tell within the first couple minutes of them logging on "hey, i'm in this area if you want to see if we can bump into each other for rp" - so long as you're not suggesting they ditch people they're already with or abandoning people you're rping with. Bringing people together seems like a good thing in my books, as a community we do want to rp together, I expect.

One thing I've seen pcs do is RP paying a courier/messenger to carry a letter - sure there are some practical issues but ultimately I think it's fair enough.

I definitely have something against seeing any DM events that include higher than level 10's going on in GG. There are so many much more appropriate places for dragons to visit, armies to ravage, etc. Big hats off to the GG Vol series though, which definitely fits the area.

[MTGPackFoils]

I love the OP (and LOVE the idea starting in Suzail. I mean hell we -just- got our charter so it makes sense to start there).

As far as getting people the hell out of GG I direct your attention here:

frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=regalgriffon&action=display&thread=19198

[TermaForever]

Nice. Also, thanks for keeping the conversation civil all, keep it up. ;D

I will say, in response to those who pointed out that many of the areas around Great Gaunt are now more midlevel:

1) I'm not suggesting getting everyone over level 5 out - more like over level 10, and its mostly a 'no loitering please' kind of thing.

2) I'd rather see balors dropped into Great Gaunt everyday than see midlevels with even fewer places to go again.

Another thought (or reason rather) directed toward themercenary and some of what he brought up: believe me I'm quite happy to see Holance around when I need me some gear. ;D

But imagine these two scenarios:

1) "Oh yeah. You can get armor from Holance, he makes that stuff. He's an awesome paladin who wanders through here from time to time...

2) "Oh yeah, you can get armor from Holance, he makes that stuff. He resides in Marsember usually. You'll need to head east out of the city...*etc adventure etc*.

Don't get me wrong, Holance is pretty good about the whole 'passing through' thing but you gotta admit it would be somewhat more gratifying to new players (and old characters with new players) having to seek out the epics known to sell stuff than for the epics to come to them. Its a great adventure hook.

[Hellwalker]

Maybe it's just me, but I've seen plenty of activity in Suzail of late, where my character and his associates have all "hung out".

And to address the whole "give higher lvls incentive to leave Greatgaunt by providing challenges further away and better equipment, supplies, prices etc" point... well... that's on the server already.

I won't give away OOC specifics in that regard, but Greatgaunt is not the best or even close to the best place to get equipment of -any- kind, nor supplies of any kind. Seems to me like some people just need to take to the road, look around and see what's out there.

Long story short; people are going to hang out in the starting town. It's a fairly well-rounded town that offers a number of commodities, but once you get a few levels under your belt and start looking around, you'll find that there's plenty more to discover in other cities that you'll find useful.

As for dungeons... I don't think I or the people I commonly group with have been near Greatgaunt in the last 2 months. I can't say that Greatgaunt and surrounds has much to offer a mid-level party, honestly.

So I guess the moral of the story is: Get out there and explore the world. You might like what you find.

[Savoie Faire]

There are a wealth of dungeons so much more challenging and rewarding for players than those in the Greatgaunt area. I myself have never been a fan of scaling dungeons, because characters on both extremes of the scaling effort get screwed: too low and you die with less reward than you need to recoup your investment, and too high and it's a cakewalk for meagre treasure when you could find much better rewards for the time invested elsewhere.

So my personal opinion, not to be confused in any way with a DM ruling, is that we should eliminate dungeon scaling altogether, and target PC levels in certain regions, with IC methods of players learning which regions are appropriate for their characters.

Greatgaunt is a focal point for many reasons, but every player has to walk past every other door in the Welcome Area to get to the door to Greatgaunt. Why don't they exit the other doors?

Habit.

'Everyone else goes there' is a fairly lame excuse, when you consider that your epic meet-up in GG is followed by a long prerigrination to the dungeons you want to visit, often involving numerous caravan tickets to get where you want to be. Why not simply meet up in the area you want to be in the first place?

"But I'll be all alone when I get there!" Balderdash. When PC's regualrly made use of the Northwest Market in Suzail, it was not uncommon for ten to twenty PC's to be commonly found there, or in the dungeons nearby. All it took was a core group of, I think, three players at the time, to draw other PC's to Suzail. They didn't go there beause DM's were having activities there, (though DM activity followed them there,) but because they had agreed as players to meet up near the places they wanted to go dungeoneering.

In various time periods, Redmist/Valkur's Roar, Eveningstar, Dhedluk, and even Arabel have been central focusses for player congregation, simply because several players decided to use those places as their 'main meeting place' and did so, on their own.

And this is the model I would suggest players follow. If you are part of a core group that generally delves into a particular dungeon or series of dungeons, make the nearby settlement your hangout. Other players, when they realize there is someone to roleplay with there, will follow. Who knows, perhaps Espar will be the next cool place to hang out.

Those who must hang out in Greatgaunt have no other alternatives. There is literally no other place the low levels can go and expect to progress. Those who go there to bully the low levels: fair warning. I am watching, and my focus in this game is on the low levels. I can out-bully any one of you. Those who go there to roleplay with friends, whether that role-play involves sacking the town or buffing lowbies for their quests, welcome to Greatgaunt, and please enjoy your stay.

[Razgriz]

Feb 6, 2013 7:21:32 GMT -5 TermaForever said:

Nice. Also, thanks for keeping the conversation civil all, keep it up. ;D

I will say, in response to those who pointed out that many of the areas around Great Gaunt are now more midlevel:

1) I'm not suggesting getting everyone over level 5 out - more like over level 10, and its mostly a 'no loitering please' kind of thing.

2) I'd rather see balors dropped into Great Gaunt everyday than see midlevels with even fewer places to go again.

Another thought (or reason rather) directed toward themercenary and some of what he brought up: believe me I'm quite happy to see Holance around when I need me some gear. ;D

But imagine these two scenarios:

1) "Oh yeah. You can get armor from Holance, he makes that stuff. He's an awesome paladin who wanders through here from time to time...

2) "Oh yeah, you can get armor from Holance, he makes that stuff. He resides in Marsember usually. You'll need to head east out of the city...*etc adventure etc*.

Don't get me wrong, Holance is pretty good about the whole 'passing through' thing but you gotta admit it would be somewhat more gratifying to new players (and old characters with new players) having to seek out the epics known to sell stuff than for the epics to come to them. Its a great adventure hook.

Ah , well thanks but Holance isn't epic yet. . When he doesn't feel like going to GG he stays in Suzail since he can tithe part of the earnings quickly after selling something.

- I wonder if we could have low level quests in places where other races dwell.

For example, Fring the hin never arrived to Cormyr since he was "born there" in the village of Shallybrook. There he aided the villagers with things like dealing with a rabid gang of kobolds in the inn's kitchen and he also searched herbs that the priestess of Yondalla needs for the cheap healing kits that every adventurer buys.

I don't know how it could be for dwarves, elves and gnomes but maybe they do have one place like Shallybrook too? As for half orcs and half elves well, they could start in GG like everyone else does.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

Card Teleports. When I log on I head to GG first, if it's empty (I haven't soloed anything since lvl5) I TP to Suzail, VR, Shally, Marsember, whatever.... I end up settling in outside The Griffon and standing around until I catch a conversation or a group.

That fact that I can Teleport also means that when he meets up with his group "usually Ramona" we Teleport off across Cormyr and we're there, no Caravan required.

Sure, I could loiter in Suzail, Marsember, The Hullack, The Unfortunate Orc, High Horn, what have you, I get the most bang for my online time in GG, epic or not. I don't go there to bully people, I don't go there to buff people, I go there to chat. I have plenty of wonderful conversations with people out of my level range. In fact, one of my most significant IG lines right now is with someone out of my 10 level range by about... 3 levels.

GG is just the hub, man. If your party doesn't like it, sure, go elsewhere. If your concern is that you're being "bullied" by the epics, well guess what, the best way to prevent epics from coming in and smashing up the joint is to have other epics standing around ready to put them in their place. Kicking out all the epics from GG just makes it that much easier to pick off for the random angry epic than it is now. Just a fact. (Why does this sound like the beginning of a Gun Control debate? *gulp*)

_______________________________________________________________________________


Now, a bit off topic... Sav makes a few good points, except I think the reasoning breaks down with the removal of scaling. I've done the leveling on FRC, old version and new, and without scaling.... life is bland. Sure, when done poorly it results in issues, but when done well it just makes dungeons viable for more people. Well applied scaling really means essentially this,

"I can do this dungeon finally, now it's viable to me for the next several levels. Yay."

Removing scaling just makes it viable for less time, because the next, say, level of spells you get might toss you a new summon, or you might get that threat increase as your WM levels build up. Scaling makes it still possible to visit the dungeon next level least you be accused of *gasp!* farming!

Well done scaling broadens the potential targets for every character on FRC. Removing scaling narrows it. It, in essence, removes dungeons. This is especially dangerous when you consider a place like Dungeon of Margogh, that scales well into epic to the point that even The James (lvl 27) doesn't bring out its full potential solo. The reason this is the case is because this dungeon fills a niche for a specif type of character. There are character who, deeeeep into epic, will still have a good IC reason to go here. Does this mean you should be required to be deeeeep into epic to go there? I think not.

So if you then start to draw lines on which dungeons are and are not "important to role play" for different character types you get into some issues of... where does the line go? What dungeons get scaling and which don't? In critical thinking they call this the problem of The Heap. One stone ain't a heap, fifty is. But what about three? Four? Five? Where does the line get drawn between the dungeons that simply MUST scale due to the fact they fill a unique role and which dungeons are tossed out the door, and doesn't tossing them out the door just amount to admitting they weren't very interesting in the first place???

Poorly done scaling results in low difficulty dungeons that slam you with a sneak attack boss fight you can't hope to handle. (Old fire giants are a good example). It presents issues with rick/reward, and it just... is a mess.

Well done scaling broadens the list of potential targets -all- characters have available to them. It it generally not drastic, and it will be careful to avoid issues with boss fight difficulty mismatch. Perhaps bosses can scale? Loot can scale?

Removing scaling is bad. Intelligently adding more scale is good.

______________________________________________________________________________

BUT this isn't a conversation about scaling! GG area dungeons have been beefed up quite a bit, but the only thing I noticed from this was that the infamous "GP dead zone" between level 6-10ish is much less of a problem now. With a healthy party in the 7-8 range you can make pretty damn good payoffs around GG. I recall a time that this was simply impossible.

But yes, sometimes "epics" in GG get out of hand, and I think that initiating PvP in Gaunt is done far too often... just in general, not commenting at all on the events of the past several days. I wasn't online and know nothing behind the events, so have no possible way of making an intelligent statement on these events... so I'm not. I'm just saying IN GENERAL PvP here happens too often inside town.

As far as what needs to be done? Nothing. I see no problems here. The DMs are going to continue to have riddles-offs, shadow dragons, gold dragons, skunks, frogs, minotaurs and the like in town, so how can you expect us to change? It's the gathering point for the server. In time this may shift more to Suzail like it once was, but for now GG is the hub. Especially if you have eight Teleports a day.

[Sadistic Hobo]

I just don't think it's bad for a module to have a hub. Sure Great gaunt doesn't make much more sense than anything else, but it's ultimately arbitrary based on the ooc starting point anyway. The point is to interact with other characters, and Great gaunt is how you can do that with folks you don't already know. I'm not sure if trying to minimize that anchor is necessarily healthy for roleplay, even if the concentration of people can get awkward. People do hang around at other places, but some grounding for when you aren't is nice to have.

[Munroe]

Before I say anything else, I should clarify that I have not read this whole thread. So if I'm rehashing something someone already said, I didn't read it.

I agree with the original poster that events for characters over level 6 should stay away from Greatgaunt. I used to siege Greatgaunt with vampires from time to time as part of my ongoing vampire plot, but I stopped because it encouraged people to hang around Greatgaunt too much.

Unfortunately, nobody is ever in the other towns I actually want to siege. Some time when I see someone in one of those locations, I'll have to make sure to drop some threats against the location.

(No, the whole plot isn't about sieges, and I KNOW some people hate sieges as a DM event, but I do like doing one every now and again, and make an all-day event of it.)

For my part, I do try to target PCs that have found their way away from Greatgaunt.

I still want a widget to temporarily disable the day/night cycle.

[TermaForever]

All good discussion points. To clarify I don't think epic 'bullying' is a big issue in the sense people are thinking of. Sure you occasionally have a massacre but again I think that has more to do with "thats where people are" more than anything.

My real point is that its hard for new characters to 'grow' in a sense when every little thing that comes up can be solved in two seconds by a 15+ character hanging in town just cause.

This happening from time to time isn't a big deal but its really the norm here. A hub is good. I just think it needs to be somewhere else. It lets the newbies breath and have their own problems and conflicts and resolve them themselves. if nothing else I hope this thread has people thinking and maybe we will see more 'drift' from it.

Still open to ideas and inputs. This has been good.

[ID10Tango]

Perhaps it's time Bentin got an upgrade. ;p

[Hellwalker]

Feb 6, 2013 16:40:47 GMT -5 TermaForever said:

My real point is that its hard for new characters to 'grow' in a sense when every little thing that comes up can be solved in two seconds by a 15+ character hanging in town just cause.

This happening from time to time isn't a big deal but its really the norm here. A hub is good. I just think it needs to be somewhere else. It lets the newbies breath and have their own problems and conflicts and resolve them themselves.

This is actually a very good point I hadn't really thought much about before. Definitely something to think about.

[PhatDorf]

It /IS/ a good point, that I wanna just pick up on... I tend to gravitate towards characters who /start/ with an issue or another. I'll use my mute wiz/bard as a recent example.

Simply - bish bash bosh, she gets healed by an epic cleric. The end. The RP was fun, and it was IC of her to /want/ to be healed.
But the charm of the character came from that fact that she had that issue to overcome constantly.

---

It is a tricky issue though, because people will just continue to gravitiate toward Greatgaunt because thier friends are there for one reason or another.

More interesting events in other towns, yeah. That's what I think would draw the higher end people away more.
As it is too many places simply hold no real reason for people to go there.

The horse town,
The kit town,
The selling town,
That town with the weapon/armour I wanted,
And then back to Greatgaunt for the next recruitment.

[Deleted]

Feb 6, 2013 16:40:47 GMT -5 TermaForever said:

All good discussion points. To clarify I don't think epic 'bullying' is a big issue in the sense people are thinking of. Sure you occasionally have a massacre but again I think that has more to do with "thats where people are" more than anything.

Here's the issue I have with the idea of, "Well, that's where people are." If you think about a tabletop session (tabletop is my benchmark for all things DND), the DM doesn't normally have some monster mercilessly slaughter the entire PC party and then OOC'ly raise them so the story can go on. The DM has the party somehow become aware of some tragedy that befell NPC's and react to that. In the most recent event, analogizing to tabletop, the DM (evil PC and DM team put together standing in for the tabletop DM) slaughtered the entire PC party and then OOC'ly raised them all to go on with the story. If a DM did that to my party in tabletop, I wouldn't go back to that game the next week.

So what is the solution? Go victimize some NPC's in some place people have to go out of their way to get to, and let players who are interested respond, and those who aren't interested stay out of the way. *dusts hands* Much less OOC issues. If you do a good job, people will come, and if they don't, then maybe your plot idea isn't as much fun as you think it is, and it's best you didn't force it on anyone by sacking lowbie-central with an epic character. Need a few PC victims as windowdressing for your event? Send a PM, I'll make some for the purpose. (I really will, by the way.) But don't force this sort of thing on the uninterested.

[pattiiie]

Feb 6, 2013 17:16:43 GMT -5 @sharauvyn said:

Feb 6, 2013 16:40:47 GMT -5 TermaForever said:

All good discussion points. To clarify I don't think epic 'bullying' is a big issue in the sense people are thinking of. Sure you occasionally have a massacre but again I think that has more to do with "thats where people are" more than anything.

Here's the issue I have with the idea of, "Well, that's where people are." If you think about a tabletop session (tabletop is my benchmark for all things DND), the DM doesn't normally have some monster mercilessly slaughter the entire PC party and then OOC'ly raise them so the story can go on. The DM has the party somehow become aware of some tragedy that befell NPC's and react to that. In the most recent event, analogizing to tabletop, the DM (evil PC and DM team put together standing in for the tabletop DM) slaughtered the entire PC party and then OOC'ly raised them all to go on with the story. If a DM did that to my party in tabletop, I wouldn't go back to that game the next week.

So what is the solution? Go victimize some NPC's in some place people have to go out of their way to get to, and let players who are interested respond, and those who aren't interested stay out of the way. *dusts hands* Much less OOC issues. If you do a good job, people will come, and if they don't, then maybe your plot idea isn't as much fun as you think it is, and it's best you didn't force it on anyone by sacking lowbie-central with an epic character. Need a few PC victims as windowdressing for your event? Send a PM, I'll make some for the purpose. (I really will, by the way.) But don't force this sort of thing on the uninterested.

I have to agree with you here, Sharauvyn.

[TermaForever]

Feb 6, 2013 17:16:43 GMT -5 @sharauvyn said:

Feb 6, 2013 16:40:47 GMT -5 TermaForever said:

All good discussion points. To clarify I don't think epic 'bullying' is a big issue in the sense people are thinking of. Sure you occasionally have a massacre but again I think that has more to do with "thats where people are" more than anything.

Here's the issue I have with the idea of, "Well, that's where people are." If you think about a tabletop session (tabletop is my benchmark for all things DND), the DM doesn't normally have some monster mercilessly slaughter the entire PC party and then OOC'ly raise them so the story can go on. The DM has the party somehow become aware of some tragedy that befell NPC's and react to that. In the most recent event, analogizing to tabletop, the DM (evil PC and DM team put together standing in for the tabletop DM) slaughtered the entire PC party and then OOC'ly raised them all to go on with the story. If a DM did that to my party in tabletop, I wouldn't go back to that game the next week.

So what is the solution? Go victimize some NPC's in some place people have to go out of their way to get to, and let players who are interested respond, and those who aren't interested stay out of the way. *dusts hands* Much less OOC issues. If you do a good job, people will come, and if they don't, then maybe your plot idea isn't as much fun as you think it is, and it's best you didn't force it on anyone by sacking lowbie-central with an epic character. Need a few PC victims as windowdressing for your event? Send a PM, I'll make some for the purpose. (I really will, by the way.) But don't force this sort of thing on the uninterested.

This is the sort of thing I'm hoping would be avoided by moving the action out of the start area. There are other issues I have in mind than just this, but hear about the fallout of the particular issue you bring up and worrying about its effect on my fellow players is why I started the topic.

Your points are valid, but lets keep the tone civil and avoid bringing up particular instances as I'm afraid that's a good way to suddenly derail a topic.

[Deleted]

I'm not speaking uncivilly at all, and I'm also looking back at other times people have done the same thing, predicting in my own mind times people might do something similar in the future, and saying something with an eye ahead. The last instance is just an example. I've had my conversation with the player who most recently did this, and as I said on another thread, I'm fine with him, person to person. Criticizing the last instance would be fruitless, and I wasn't there to really know the details of what happened anyways. I'm just looking ahead at the next time someone is tempted.

[leaflord]

Not sure I get what is the problem? Is evil folks not suppose to do well evil things. By all the posts I would say there plenty of good folks that are doing what exactly? There doing everything in there posts to now be part of it...that is what there doing.

To cast an eye what might come is prudent at best. I personally not in favor what transpired ic wise but like that some people are getting love needed to continue there roleplay.

Abby should get a reward for being overlooked that she did want to cast doubt on another character which is roleplay delicious!

LeafLord

[leaflord]

I like epics around makes harder to move about and gives some great direction for character development. I do not want to arrive in Suzuail to yet again produce my roleplay so now the epics can judge it deemable as good or not. Starting to show your character over and over in other cities so some guy who goes adventuring 90% time wants to know you is taxing.

LeafLord

[Deleted]

Feb 6, 2013 17:43:26 GMT -5 leaflord said:

I like epics around makes harder to move about and gives some great direction for character development. I do not want to arrive in Suzuail to yet again produce my roleplay so now the epics can judge it deemable as good or not. Starting to show your character over and over in other cities so some guy who goes adventuring 90% time wants to know you is taxing.

LeafLord

I do not think anyone said epics should not be around. People said that they should be careful about certain things so that people with low level characters can play and have fun, too.

[TermaForever]

I'm also not saying that evil shouldn't be evil. But really, is it fun to have a high level evil show up in a town of lowbies and slaughter them all with no prayer of defending themselves? That's griefing in my book. But that's not for me to define and that's not the point of this conversation.

I think most of the points to be made have been made and I'm worried that this conversation is going to drift to the wrong places now.

I think its a reasonable belief that people should consider ways that they can get out of town, see the world, and let the lowbies have their time in the lowbie zone. Its also seems to be something a lot of people can agree on, I think.